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Zombies. Steam key kerfuffle; dev waffles on Steam keys for past purchasers, drama
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
Although scamming your customers seems like an obvious mistake when put in those terms, I can imagine it being fairly easy for someone to slip up without much external guidance. Maybe there should be a handbook. It would have to be fairly long, though. People will always find creative ways to fuck up.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Calling your customers scumbags? Well, good luck to him
bodyboarder
Member
Hopefully this gets some media attention.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Uhhh...not to say he's on the right, but the bundles don't work the way you think they do.
People buy the non-steam version in a bundle, vote on Greenlight, and THEN get an additional steam key when it's released. It's not a charity, because they already got the game.
That said, if you participate in a Debut Bundle, it's common practice to give keys once the game is greenlit. These bundles are not designed to make cash money. They're designed to raise awareness of your game.
Not sure if posted but... This is from groupees
Email from dev
Here. I cleaned it up so there's less repeated:
Edit: restored missing img
welp
Wiktor
Member
Unless the devs promise the keys. Because that's one of the points of those bundles. Plenty of people buy them, then they go to vote for the game on greenlight because they want to keys. Then devs lands on Steam, which boosts his sales immensely and he gives keys to people who helped him get there. Everybody wins.
Krappadizzle
Member
The irony in this post is strong.
Funchameleon
Banned
You only just acknowledged that he would've been treated like shit thanks to this. There's a difference between being protecting your consumer rights (reasonable request, boycotting involved parties and informing others) and typical internet response (death threats over a second licence for game that costs less than a cup of coffee, the ever present threat of being the next Adam Orth).
If he felt so strongly at the start about the revamped game being a different product and exempt from that promise then relented so strongly I wouldn't want to have been in his shoes.
Not calling your customers scumbags helps when you need a bit of goodwill/faith from them.
Warm Machine
Member
We have suggested we will give away Steam keys to people who have already bought our games on PC if a mechanic to support it actually exists. The waters can get muddy if you don't know how sales and customers are being tracked on the other end.
If his sales portals have not have tracked users then he has a right to be concerned. If they do have that info, generate the damn keys. People are not going to double dip on a game on the same platform, that is asking way too much of your customers and fans. You get on Steam to expand your fanbase, not cut them out.
Guys have to remember that when you bitch to EA you are bitching at a building and a logo. When you bitch to an indie dev you are hitting a real person. Indies have no corporate shell to protect them. This isn't to excuse his behavior, it is to simply remind that the same tact should not be applied.
If his sales portals have not have tracked users then he has a right to be concerned. If they do have that info, generate the damn keys. People are not going to double dip on a game on the same platform, that is asking way too much of your customers and fans. You get on Steam to expand your fanbase, not cut them out.
Guys have to remember that when you bitch to EA you are bitching at a building and a logo. When you bitch to an indie dev you are hitting a real person. Indies have no corporate shell to protect them. This isn't to excuse his behavior, it is to simply remind that the same tact should not be applied.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
I know how it works. I participate in them.
What he did is cheating the consumers 100%. I'm not defending him. The post I was replying to used the word "charity", which it is not, as they exchanged currency for goods, whether or not it was the entirety of what they paid for.
I was just clarifying that the consumer got something, not that the dev was on the right.
They have tracked it, but rightly so, refuse to give him that data. He was naive to think that he'd be sending those keys out himself. That's not how it works, nor is it how it ever worked.
I suspect he did not really understand standard operating procedure at the outset.
Team Filler
Member
Death threats? Really?
immortal-joe
Member
This whole thing was a meta game, and we are all participants. Don't you see? We are the zombies.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
is this game even good
Who's making death threats? The internet is razzing the guy because he tried to screw over his supporters and then called them scumbags for very reasonably expecting him to fulfill his promise.
runnin_blue
Banned
I was merely bringing up a point that has sparked my interest of late. That being indie devs being bullied to the point that they snap back or are disillusioned with the business.
I am aware that all the situations I mentioned do not exactly parallel eachother. I never actually stated that.
A question for you: Did you actually read my entire post or simply skim it?
I'll repost my comment so you can reread it.
runnin_blue said:
charlequin
Banned
Like 90+% of devs who are on twitter have basically positive interactions with fans and never do dumb shit like this, because most people can basically control themselves in this kind of situation.
There's still a huge difference between people sending you awful messages and actually being bullied. This dude made a terrible decision based on an abject, unfiltered contempt for his customers, and people reacted to that.
I feel bad for him because when people fuck up in this kind of public way on the internet, some of the response they get is always going to be disproportionate and it's hard for anyone to deal with a disproportionate, charged emotional attack. But calling this "bullying" fundamentally disguises and sensationalizes what was going on here.
Wiktor
Member
Twitter promotes impulsive posting though. Even good natured people can post dumb things there. Stephen King and that Double Fine designer are just the most recent examples. It really is easy to make a fool of yourself on Twitter. Of course, the sane ones realize their mistake and correct them. While the dumb ones keep going deeper and deeper.
Dog Problems
Banned
Which Double Fine designer are you referring to and what did they say?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I bet these devs would be much more happier about giving away thousands of keys if key redemptions counted toward the sales charts and let them hit the top 20 for a day or so.
Wiktor
Member
JP LeBreton shat on Ken Levine after the story about Irrational closure broke. He quickly deleted the tweet though.
Quadraphonic
Member
He was the first person to go public about it. But I've heard negativity around Ken's behavior for a long time.
I would be really interested in hearing from him what he felt he was getting from bundles,what he was prepared to give in return, and if Valve's decision to rubber-stamp hundreds of Greenlight games made him re-evaluate.
It also makes me wonder if there's much life left in all these bundles now that Greenlight is done. Hadn't really considered it before this.
Dr D Wayne Love
Banned
Messofanego
Banned
I don't think it was a dumb thing or comparable to Stephen King's tweets. Other developers haven't had the nicest things to say about Ken for a while now. Yeah, doesn't sound like JP will want to work with Ken Levine again, but that's about it in terms of repercussions. Plus, he has a point that if you're successful then no one cares how much of a egomaniac you were. Heck, it's almost expected being the leader of a project. Dyack and LA Noire's McNamara weren't as successful, so they got shit on with no problem.
Did not catch this in the Irrational thread, very interesting to get some (very nearly) insider perspective. Thanks!
News facts at 11', you need a pretty thick skin on the internet if you're going to pursue a very public facing persona. You need to take the good with the bad, and be able to brush it off.
Look, no one is forcing these Dev's to put their name out there. I appreciate their accessibility, mostly, but lets not split hairs that most get an ego boost out of it and want to be the new CliffyB or Phil Fish rock star Dev's.
Either way, that's not really what happened here. Customers and were legitimately confused and pissed and the developer blew this up into something it should never have been.
I was following Levin on twitter, until I realized each tweet seems started screaming "please, look at me!". Nothing much insightful there, except the occasional passing on of fan art.
I'm not a big fan of when the boss really, really screws up and bails on a golden parachute leaving everyone else to walk the plank. Especially when the product ends up being a Bioshock Infinite. All that creative freedom and money and you it ends up safe and middle of the line mediocre. Heh.
runnin_blue
Banned
News facts at 11', you need a pretty thick skin on the internet if you're going to pursue a very public facing persona. You need to take the good with the bad, and be able to brush it off.
Look, no one is forcing these Dev's to put their name out there. I appreciate their accessibility, mostly, but lets not split hairs that most get an ego boost out of it and want to be the new CliffyB or Phil Fish rock star Dev's.
Either way, that's not really what happened here. Customers and were legitimately confused and pissed and the developer blew this up into something it should never have been
Unless you have seen first-hand the kind of abuse this guy may have received from people, then I don't think you can confidently dismiss this as a factor to him snapping and being rude like he did.
Again, I am not flat out defending him, I think, initially he was being an asshat, but unless I have seen both sides of the story, I am not so quick to judge.
old manatee
Banned
It is almost as if indie devs don't have a full staff of professional pr people.
Triggerhappytel
Member
tehbignic said:
Couldn't have said it better myself buddy.
This is some pretty typical "bait and switch" bullshit right here though. You don't need to be a professional to understand that this kind of behavior is completely unacceptable.
dirtywhirlwind
Member
He's not really wrong though. People demanding keys are more likely to be scumbags rather than, as the thread title suggest, fans.
Since they were promised keys, what metric is this based on?
I'd be interested to see what the Groupees contract says, given the above statement and the screencaptured chat with Groupees concerning Steam keys.
He made a bad call, tweeting that message without what is arguably the most important part "If this seriously bothers anyone, lets chat." Not only that, but he made the statement as though the decision had already been made, not that it was really open for discussion. And why would he even make that statement if he hadn't already committed to Steam keys to begin with? Were people bugging him about it?
He made a bad call, tweeting that message without what is arguably the most important part "If this seriously bothers anyone, lets chat." Not only that, but he made the statement as though the decision had already been made, not that it was really open for discussion. And why would he even make that statement if he hadn't already committed to Steam keys to begin with? Were people bugging him about it?
dirtywhirlwind
Member
The general entitlement people feel for something they bought for a nickel or two. I've seen people act like the developers owe them for getting greenlit or whatever. It's ridiculously disgusting.
I don't know what was promised or not. I don't know any details about the arrangement between the bundle site and the developer so that's irrelevant.
CambriaRising
Member
The guy literally said that if they bought it now then they would receive keys when it was greenlit on steam. The customers are far from being in the wrong here for expecting purchasing conditions to be met.
I'll update the OP, thanks for the link!
So am I mistaken or is he still not giving keys to people who bought the game at full price? I must be mistaken...
Also,
The guy still doesn't get it. :\
But good on him for putting the matter to rest.
The last sentence makes me think as though that they should be getting the keys. I don't think it's a case of him differentiating between "Zombies" and "Corporate Life Simulator" either since he said that the former won't be available on steam on its own, so people should be receiving the game + expansion.
Why? Some of his customers definitely acted like scumbags.
ManUtdRedDevils
Member
So if it is an expansion as he says, why build it directly into the game and change the name instead of putting the original on steam and sell the expansion content separately? It doesn't make any sense.
If you sold Zombies for cheap in bundles but it garnered positive feedback, why wouldn't you keep the same name for Steam and release the additional content separately? Isn't the point to sell the game for cheap is to build all of this positive name recognition so why dump it when it finally gets on to Steam? Seems weird to me. Not only that, but the people who got the original for free or cheap and enjoyed the experience would be more likely to buy the DLC, but won't if they don't recognize the name or have a steam key.
If you sold Zombies for cheap in bundles but it garnered positive feedback, why wouldn't you keep the same name for Steam and release the additional content separately? Isn't the point to sell the game for cheap is to build all of this positive name recognition so why dump it when it finally gets on to Steam? Seems weird to me. Not only that, but the people who got the original for free or cheap and enjoyed the experience would be more likely to buy the DLC, but won't if they don't recognize the name or have a steam key.
When there's a big, flashy "Help vote this game on Steam Greenlight and get a Steam key once it's done" sign on the game description, I'd say Steam keys are a little more than promised. But yeah, these scumbags are really entitled to something they were promised at the moment of purchase.
Total assholes, wouldn't you agree?
Because at the end of the day they are still customers, and the one who broke a promise was the dev. They are only asking for what they were promised.