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[Blackthorn]

This would be a hilariously boring thing to say anywhere but NeoGaf, but I've been thinking about quicksaves a lot recently.

On one hand, they're great. I can reach a point where I've made significant progress, hit save and keep going knowing I won't have to repeat whatever challenge got me to there. Skyrim would be awful without them.

On the other, I sometimes find myself time-travelling my way through challenges. I know this is my own fault but I can't always resist the temptation and I feel like I've cheapened the experience when I do.

Some games are pretty great at taking them out of your hands with reliable, well placed checkpoints (Halo) while others would simply be broken if quicksaves were introduced (Dark Souls).

But it can also be incredibly annoying, especially in stealth games, when the option is taken away from you, with one fumble of the controls losing you half an hour of intensely gradual progress.

So what seems like a good balance to me is a limited quicksave option, for example, you can save 3 times in a given level whenever you like, or you can save once every 5 minutes. It prevents save-spamming your way through encounters while still letting you set your own milestones.

I know the Hitman series often offers a similar system in their higher difficulties, but what are some other examples of limited quicksaves and what is your opinion on their implementation?

 

[graywolf323]

just use self-control instead of limiting others

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I appreciate that Serious Sam 3 indicates that you shouldn't rely on quicksaves by making them detract from your score. It's not as harsh as a deterrent as I think it should be, but it at least shows how the designers feel you should play the game.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

I remember Mission impossible for PS1 had a quick save option. I might be in the minority but i preferred Hitman Contracts save system instead of Blood moneys quick save system because i would always need to finish a mission in blood money as it did not have a forced save system.

 

[Tagyhag]

Id be fine with an option. But it seems like almost nobody would use it so it would be a waste of dev time.

 

[ArjanN]

It's an interesting system, however I also like to use saves as a way of level-selecting so you can play some specific part again, or as insurance against bugs/crashes.

 

[Blackthorn]

just use self-control instead of limiting others

Or: options for everyone!

I appreciate that Serious Sam 3 indicates that you shouldn't rely on quicksaves by making them detract from your score. It's not as harsh as a deterrent as I think it should be, but it at least shows how the designers feel you should play the game.

That's pretty smart, Serious Sam is definitely a series I've been guilty of abusing quicksaves in.

I remember Mission impossible for PS1 had a quick save option. I might be in the minority but i preferred Hitman Contracts save system instead of Blood moneys quick save system because i would always need to finish a mission in blood money as it did not have a forced save system.

What was the difference between the two?

 

[Jimmyfenix]

Or: options for everyone!

That's pretty smart, Serious Sam is definitely a series I've been guilty of abusing quicksaves in.

What was the difference between the two?

In contracts If you save and quit the game you will pick up where you left off in a mission. While in blood money if you saved and quit you would lose all progress and would have to start from the beginning of the mission.

 

[Tain]

I'd like to see more games make limited use of them like in Hitman, sure.

If we're going to entertain the idea of "options for everyone" or whatever, we should then advocate that the defaults be limited or no quicksaves, with quicksaves essentially being offered as an easy mode style difficulty tweak. Or a cheat, like in Hard Reset.

 

[Blackthorn]

In contracts If you save and quit the game you will pick up where you left off in a mission. While in blood money if you saved and quit you would lose all progress and would have to start from the beginning of the mission.

Urgh, I hate that. All games should provide a "suspend" save so you can walk away without losing progress.

I'd like to see more games make limited use of them like in Hitman, sure.

If we're going to entertain the idea of "options for everyone" or whatever, we should then advocate that the defaults be limited or no quicksaves, with quicksaves essentially being offered as an easy mode style difficulty tweak. Or a cheat, like in Hard Reset.

Along those lines, more genres having the limited use rewinds that racing games provide in lower difficulties these days would be cool - though probably nowhere near as easy to implement.

 

[Mister Chippy]

Nah, I wouldn't want that. Quicksaves are my way of fixing it when a dev fucks up with level design. They put in a stupid section that takes forever to reach a checkpoint and relies more on luck than skill, I use my quicksaves. Actually, I think any game that includes insta-death QTEs should be required by law to have quicksaves, or at least well placed checkpoints. Stupid fucking minecarts...

 

[injurai]

The only games where I feel quick saves are a must would be Fallout/TES. I pretty much can't play those games without them.

They really only add something in an open world game where you want to experiment without dealing with consequences.

 

[NuclearSpy]

Just becauze you're a masochist doesn't mean we all need to be. Nobody is forcing you to use quick save/quick load.

 

[Deadbeat]

YOU ARENT ALLOWED A THING BECAUSE I HAVE NO SELF CONTROL

Spoiler

Soldier of Fortune 2 had a limited quicksave feature with certain difficulties and options

 

[d00d3n]

just use self-control instead of limiting others

YOU ARENT ALLOWED A THING BECAUSE I HAVE NO SELF CONTROL

According to this logic, why not enable an extensive cheat section in the main menu of all games? I am sure some people want this, so why "limit them"? The non-cheating players can rely on their self control to avoid the section.

 

[Kinsei]

I like the way Hitman Blood Money did it. Unlimited quick saves on rookie, 7 quick saves per level on normal, 3 quick saves per level on expert, and no quick saves allowed on professional.

 

[Moon_frogger]

It was indeed great in the hit man series

 

[MC Safety]

Save anywhere, please.

I've had my fill of dying in-game and having to watch a cut-scene before I can resume play.

 

[Hypron]

Max Payne 1 and 2 did that on dead on arrival. It was great.

 

[Muffdraul]

God I loved abusing F5 when I played on PC. I will never, ever apologize for it.

A few hours into GTA V, I started quicksaving exclusively. I realized that when you load an autosave or a safehouse bed save, your character will be in any random part of the map, same as when switching characters. Quicksaving was the only way where when you load it, you're exactly where you were when you saved. I turned off autosave and the only time I used a bed was when I wanted to advance time.

 

[Curufinwe]

Remember the collectable save crystals from Tomb Raider 3 on PS1? They really created tension, but were less punishing than the fixed save points in the first game.

On the PlayStation version, saving the game is restricted to the amount of Save Crystals the player has stored in Lara's inventory. These floating blue crystals can be found throughout each level, but unlike the original Tomb Raider, they do not require the player to save the game at the pick-up spot. The PC version allows the player to save at any point. The developers planned on having the Save Crystal system for the PC version, but this was unfinished and the green crystals act instead as small medipacks.

 

[Syril]

According to this logic, why not enable an extensive cheat section in the main menu of all games? I am sure some people want this, so why "limit them"? The non-cheating players can rely on their self control to avoid the section.

I was there when cheat menus ruined otherwise classic games forever. Oh wait, they didn't, it was a cool bonus feature on one of the most beloved games of its day.

 

[OuiOuiBa]

Randy Smith has held a conference on save/load compulsion at GDC (2009 ?)
It is available there.
I must confess I have read it years ago and have forgot most about it, but I remember it was an interesting read, and can confirm it after getting my eyes back to it.

 

[mclem]

I know the Hitman series often offers a similar system in their higher difficulties, but what are some other examples of limited quicksaves and what is your opinion on their implementation?

We did that for Sniper Elite (the original, I can't speak for V2)

Also: No mention of Resident Evil's ink ribbons?

 

[Bo Knows GAF]

Save anywhere, please.

I've had my fill of dying in-game and having to watch a cut-scene before I can resume play.

I'm mostly with this because while I enjoy a good cutscene, seeing it dozens of times will drive me nuts.

The only save I really appreciate though is one's for the middle of a sports game, like in 2k14 Franchise. If suddenly I can't finish my game against the Pacers and I'm in the 3rd, I appreciate I can come back and start right where I left off in the game rather than starting over.

 

[deltatheta]

According to this logic, why not enable an extensive cheat section in the main menu of all games? I am sure some people want this, so why "limit them"? The non-cheating players can rely on their self control to avoid the section.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If the cheats are clearly marked and the game is designed to provide an entertaining challenge when not being used there's no reason to not provide the option.

On the other hand, a lot of the time the presence of quicksaves is used to cover up lazy design. Developers feel no pressure to provide reasonable checkpoints or a reasonable difficulty curve if you can just quicksave spam through the difficult parts. For me, it's way more fun to overcome a challenge that was well designed than create my own challenge by self-rationing quicksaves.

 

[jaythagamer]

the original 1999 version of aliens versus predator by rebellion on pc didn't have quicksaves
the levels usually weren't that big but enemy encounters were partly random and a single enemy could tear you a new one pretty quick
add to that the predators that sometimes lurk at the end of a level, who can kill you in one hit, and you have some pretty tense gameplay
the gold edition added in quicksaves, but limited the number depending on the difficulty setting

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I was there when cheat menus ruined otherwise classic games forever. Oh wait, they didn't, it was a cool bonus feature on one of the most beloved games of its day.

The difference is that quicksaves generally aren't marked as cheats and don't prevent you from progressing in the game.

 

[LevityNYC]

Quick saves ruined Fallout 3. I saved nearly every 10 seconds during a battle. Just made it boring and killed all tension.

 

[CaptainDreads]

Personally I prefer systems where if you die you are dumped back to the beginning of the level, or at least far enough back that dying actually feels like a punishment.

In many games I have played recently if you die, you are just taken back 1 or 2 minutes to replay the exact scene where you died. Which means that I really don't care when / if I die.

Maybe it's just me but when I playing a game with quick save I will most likely just save every few minutes for convenience mostly. Especially when you don't necessarily know what's a sensible place to save.

In something like Dark souls when I am 15-20 minutes from the last bonfire and I am desperately searching for the next one, that feeling of dread and actual fear for my characters life makes me think that they had their game design bang on point.

 

[OuiOuiBa]

I'm mostly with this because while I enjoy a good cutscene, seeing it dozens of times will drive me nuts.

I understand where you are coming from, but imho, this is really not enough of a requirement.
If cutscenes were skippable (and watchable later) as they should be in most cases, this wouldn't be a problem anyway.

 

[RedSwirl]

More games should just use temporary quicksaves like the original Wii Virtual Console and a lot of GBA RPGs did. Create a quicksave whenever you turn the game off, and then delete that save after it's been loaded once.

The main reason games have quicksaves in the first place is so you can stop playing whenever you need to without losing progress just because you had to drive somewhere or let someone else use the TV. Games (or consoles) should do this on top of whatever hard save system they already use. That way, you have all the convenience of quicksaves without breaking the difficulty.

The other way is the Dark Souls/classic Fire Emblem way of just automatically quicksaving over one save slot upon every action, which makes every decision you make in the game final. It increases the difficult while also giving you the convenience of being able to stop the game whenever you need to.

 

[jimi_dini]

While in blood money if you saved and quit you would lose all progress and would have to start from the beginning of the mission.

I'm pretty sure that you could save anywhere you like and restore to that exact point, but it was only possible to have one of those saves at a time and the save was quite big. Except for Professional difficulty of course.

I was there when cheat menus ruined otherwise classic games forever. Oh wait, they didn't, it was a cool bonus feature on one of the most beloved games of its day.

Yep. Give me this. And I mean exactly this. Not a DLC cheat or some crap.
And fuck trophies.

 

[majik13]

I found the auto saving in Last of Us basically made it unchallenging, and gave no penalty to dieing, taken away any real sense of fear. I know you are talking about quick-saves but I think this is sort of relate-able. How ZombiU handled it made it a much more intense and scary game. Basically sort of like Dark Souls.

But yes how saves are implemented has a huge effect on gameplay/difficulty.

 

[Super Nothing]

Or: options for everyone!

But you're the one trying to impose limits on the rest of the gaming population. Leaving quick saves unrestricted is actually the best way to provide players with the most options.

 

[majik13]

More games should just use temporary quicksaves like the original Wii Virtual Console and a lot of GBA RPGs did. Create a quicksave whenever you turn the game off, and then delete that save after it's been loaded once..

I think that is basically considered a Suspend, which most handhelds do too. And is something that is being implemented on the OS level for the new current gen consoles.

 

[dralla]

All stealth games should have them. It would encourage the player to try new things and new ways of approaching situations/

 

[Daingurse]

No, I don't want anything limiting how I use quick save. Self-control seems like the best thing for you. Some people don't like putting restrictions on themselves, but if they can make the game funner for you, you should try it.

 

[ichtyander]

the original 1999 version of aliens versus predator by rebellion on pc didn't have quicksaves
the levels usually weren't that big but enemy encounters were partly random and a single enemy could tear you a new one pretty quick
add to that the predators that sometimes lurk at the end of a level, who can kill you in one hit, and you have some pretty tense gameplay
the gold edition added in quicksaves, but limited the number depending on the difficulty setting

Came to post this. I remember enjoying the original AvP a lot because it had a very tangible difficulty that forced you to learn the ropes, memorize the levels and get better at the game. Later in the game I even avoided saving so I could complete the levels in one go. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it today but back then I loved it, even surprisingly so. I guess, when a difficult game trains you well and makes you better at it while still giving you a challenge, it creates a sort of welcoming difficulty, makes you feel good about yourself and constantly offers a challenge. Dark Souls does this well I think. It's only problematic when certain areas or enemies are exceptionally cheap and unfair.

Anyway, I understand the whole fixed checkpoints system, it gives greater control to the developers and avoids problematic situations such as dead end quicksaves. However, I don't really see a reason games can't have, say, less frequent checkpoints alongside enabled quicksaves, except maybe more HDD space which is miniscule compared to the rest of the game size.

 

[Camp Freddie]

Having quicksaves as a limited resource can work well. It helped in Hitman games, to create a sense of tension and stop you just charging around with your fingers on WASD and F5.
It should be linked to difficulty settings though, creating a kind of 'ironman-lite' option (tinman? or war-machine mode?)

Games that are so punishing that you feel like quicksaving after every shot/jump are generally just broken game design in the first place.

 

[keyrat]

It's no fun (if a challenge is fun to you) playing a coin-op game like Contra, Metal Slug, 1943, etc with infinite lives and that's how unlimited quick-saving can feel sometimes.

If it's unlimited it's part of the game design and thus the way to play the game. You can impose your own limits (like you might want to try beating Super Mario Bros without getting any mushrooms) but that's not something you usually do on first playthrough. You usually play a game according to how the designers made it.

 

[kazebyaka]

Hitman: Blood Money did that.

 

[MadSexual]

It's certainly an interesting topic. I've definitely been guilty of abusing them at times. I'm not sure I could have finished Max Payne 1 without them. Most of the time they are just a suspend play convenience. On the other hand, my two favorite games are Dark Souls and Hotline Miami, which have nothing at all resembling the functionality of a quick save.

 

[deltatheta]

Ideally games would have quicksaves available but designed as if players would never use them. Then you'd truly have the option to ignore them if you prefer the overcoming challenge/mastery experience of video games. It seems like games with quicksaves are never designed that way, though.

 

[d00d3n]

I was there when cheat menus ruined otherwise classic games forever. Oh wait, they didn't, it was a cool bonus feature on one of the most beloved games of its day.

Ahhh, I see. In that case I guess we agree. You can have your time travel cheats (quicksaves) in all games as an unlockable after completing levels properly and mastering them. Or what did you mean?

 

[Dr. Buni]

I don't. Quick saves literally saved me from frustration a lot of times.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

More games should just use temporary quicksaves like the original Wii Virtual Console and a lot of GBA RPGs did. Create a quicksave whenever you turn the game off, and then delete that save after it's been loaded once.

The main reason games have quicksaves in the first place is so you can stop playing whenever you need to without losing progress just because you had to drive somewhere or let someone else use the TV. Games (or consoles) should do this on top of whatever hard save system they already use. That way, you have all the convenience of quicksaves without breaking the difficulty.

The other way is the Dark Souls/classic Fire Emblem way of just automatically quicksaving over one save slot upon every action, which makes every decision you make in the game final. It increases the difficult while also giving you the convenience of being able to stop the game whenever you need to.

It's wierd watching PC-only concepts, which developed naturally, be used only as stepladders to the hedonic treadmill when the waters of computer gaming and console gaming mingled circa 2004, like unleashing clever, tenacious predators onto the waddling island wildlife of console gaming balancing. In this case, extinction is increased emotional reliance on this mechanic and insane troll logic like the below:

just use self-control instead of limiting others

Always asked of others, never of themselves.

 

[zer0blivion]

More games need quick-save. I love it and often abuse it. That said, an option to allow x quick-saves per checkpoint or chapter would be a good compromise for the masochists everyone.

 

[braves01]

Make quick-saves a micro transaction. Are you happy op?

 

[Jaeger]

I don't have a problem with it. But it really depends on the kind of game. It should not be a function for every kind of game on every kind of platform.