drotahorror
Member
Just seems like something easy to implement. I sort of regret getting my Wii U last year because of this. And I'm not in the mood to buy a new 50" tv for a wii u. I just prefer my monitor and surround sound setup.
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Wii U and Limited/Full RGB Range
- Thread starter dcx4610
- Start date
if you have a kuro krp-500m (or 600m?) you should also know that the 'auto' setting is broken and any rgb signals will be treated as full unless you manually set it to rgb 16-235
your cable box is probably sending 4:4:4 Y'CbCr instead of RGB. On motorola boxes you can change this in the hidden user menu but there isn't really a reason to. PS4 does this for bluray content too, which is annoying if you force your tv to rgb colorspace.
limited looks atrocious using your PC because you have to set up your PC to send a limited signal. PC monitors use 0-255 so it won't do that by default. Though again, you probably don't have a reason to
your cable box is probably sending 4:4:4 Y'CbCr instead of RGB. On motorola boxes you can change this in the hidden user menu but there isn't really a reason to. PS4 does this for bluray content too, which is annoying if you force your tv to rgb colorspace.
limited looks atrocious using your PC because you have to set up your PC to send a limited signal. PC monitors use 0-255 so it won't do that by default. Though again, you probably don't have a reason to
Unless sRGB can somehow display limited correctly then you are washing out your colors on the Wii U. Whether you notice it or not.
Waylon Drums
Member
I don't have an RGB setting on my TV. Is color gamut the same thing?
obeythed1734
Member
I'm confused. How does RGB have any impact on image quality if connected to a screen through HDMI?
Is there a jpeg file or something we can use for testing and calibrating this? I wonder if console web browsers are working in the same colour space they use for games...
Edit: I found this image linked from the PS4 RGB/Full thread - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=90188405#post90188405
Edit: I found this image linked from the PS4 RGB/Full thread - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=90188405#post90188405
Because it's about colour space, not the type of signal.
If you say so it must be true, naturally.
Blu rays aren't output in Rgb, unless you force it, which you shouldn't.
boredandlazy
Member
I have everything set to auto and my TV/PS4/PS3 default to full range RGB. I do have a Sony Bravia W900A TV though.
Forcing limited via NVCP and setting the television to limited still result in red bleeding and blurry magentas. Nvidia doesn't allow 4:4:4 in limited, it is 4:2:2 unfortunately. It's bullshit, but Nvidia chose that for whatever reason. Nvidia+TV=Full RGB unless you want less than ideal IQ.
In your case you are viewing a less than ideal image if you have the Wii U hooked up to a PC monitor.
you should never get crushed blacks whether you're using limited or full unless something in the chain is expecting one colorspace and getting another. If you're sending limited, 16 is black and if you're sending full, 0 is black. If you send limited and something expects full, it will think 16 is 16 steps above black, making things washed out. If you send full and something expects limited, it will throw out everything below 16 as black, giving you crushed blacks. Same for highlights. PS4 does not even use rgb for bluray output; I'm not sure about xbox but if it does it would handle the proper 16->0 conversion to full range. TVs do all kinds of colorspace conversions behind the scenes anyway
Yes, movies use a limited (non-rgb) range but it is still inherently inferior. The weaknesses are just a lot more apparent on manufactured images (eg games, PCs) than they are with photography. Same with chroma subsampling. Movies use ycbcr 4:2:0 (25% chroma resolution) but you wouldn't want to browse the internet that way.
Yes.
If you watch any video content at all (DVD, Blu-Ray, Netflix, DLNA streaming, etc) on your video game console, then you should be using limited. All video content is mastered with "limited" as the standard. There is video content in the 0-16 and 236-254 ranges and sending it over a "full" signal causes your console to clip the video signal. Losing 0-16 isn't really vital since it's generally calibrated out, but losing 236-254 causes you to lose your white highlights. This can cause things like bright white fluffy clouds to turn into large mono color white splotches. A proper calibration for video AKA limited content should display the entire 16-254 range. It's also beneficial to have the 0-16 range available in case the content you are watching has been improperly mastered and you need to adjust the brightness setting on your display so the content's blacks are not clipped.
Full should only be used for games themselves. However I would check the gamma curve of the display in full to make sure your display isn't doing something wonky with it.
Full should only be used for games themselves. However I would check the gamma curve of the display in full to make sure your display isn't doing something wonky with it.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
Have you checked to see if your monitor has a limited option? Some do.
Skyfireblaze
Member
I'm glad this topic was made again, I thought of making it myself but didn't know if I should. The lack of Full Range RGB on the Wii U also causes me headaches :/ I have a TV perfectly capable of displaying Limited Range though I like to game on my LG 23 ET 83 V-W monitor the most and when I compare the Wii U's picture on it to my TV it looks rather dull and washed out, enough for me to notice atleast 
Initially I was hopeful as the monitor has a Black Level setting I can switch from High to Low but that doesn't seem to be a RGB setting in this case as setting it to low doesn't bring back the colors and only makes the image notably darker. I tested this with my PS3 switching from Full to Limited in the XMB. I really hope Nintendo patches it rather soon so we monitor gamers can enjoy our Wii U's on them :/
There's one thing I have been wondering though, is it possible to manually ease the effect of Limited Range on a monitor somewhat with other monitor settings? I found a topic talking about that the other day on Google but the next day it 404'ed on me so I could never test if what they wrote there works. All I remember was manually setting the R, G and B values of the monitor along with Brightness and Contrast changes. Does anyone have experience with that? I know it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near perfect but I would like to give it a try.
Initially I was hopeful as the monitor has a Black Level setting I can switch from High to Low but that doesn't seem to be a RGB setting in this case as setting it to low doesn't bring back the colors and only makes the image notably darker. I tested this with my PS3 switching from Full to Limited in the XMB. I really hope Nintendo patches it rather soon so we monitor gamers can enjoy our Wii U's on them :/
There's one thing I have been wondering though, is it possible to manually ease the effect of Limited Range on a monitor somewhat with other monitor settings? I found a topic talking about that the other day on Google but the next day it 404'ed on me so I could never test if what they wrote there works. All I remember was manually setting the R, G and B values of the monitor along with Brightness and Contrast changes. Does anyone have experience with that? I know it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near perfect but I would like to give it a try.
The only differences between full and limited after calibration would be:
Full to Full = Limited sources would be clipped at 16 and 235 which would clip white highlights. Potential banding of Limited sources.
Limited to Limited = Potential banding in games using the full RGB range.
Unless you calibrate your display, both are most likely wrong to some degree. Setting to either Full or Limited does not automatically set your brightness level correctly. All the Full or Limited settings do is tell the display that 0 or 16 should be black. This doesn't mean they are actually set correctly.
One thing to keep in mind is that unless Sony and Microsoft have introduced actual standards this gen, developers may be rendering in limited mode. Last gen it was up to the developers, and I'd imagine it still is. Just because you have your system set to Full doesn't mean it's providing any actual benefit.
Full to Full = Limited sources would be clipped at 16 and 235 which would clip white highlights. Potential banding of Limited sources.
Limited to Limited = Potential banding in games using the full RGB range.
Unless you calibrate your display, both are most likely wrong to some degree. Setting to either Full or Limited does not automatically set your brightness level correctly. All the Full or Limited settings do is tell the display that 0 or 16 should be black. This doesn't mean they are actually set correctly.
One thing to keep in mind is that unless Sony and Microsoft have introduced actual standards this gen, developers may be rendering in limited mode. Last gen it was up to the developers, and I'd imagine it still is. Just because you have your system set to Full doesn't mean it's providing any actual benefit.
I've got an LG 55LN5200 and the Auto Mode switches automatically, depending on whether it's receiving Limited(Black Level Low or Full(Black Level High), or even YCbCr 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. Hope yours does the same, as it's extremely convenient.
so I started playing around with this. my TV is set to auto and i previously had my PS4 set to full because I ignorantly thought that was better.
I switched the PS4 to auto (which should set everything to limited right?) and everything is definitely brighter and one could even say washed out. I understand this is actually better though and I just need to get used to it.
HOWEVER, my question is, the other components I have hooked up (TiVo Roamio, apple tv, etc) all appear much darker than the PS4. easiest way to compare this is to watch netflix on tivo and then netflix on PS4. Is this because my other components are outputting as CMYK or whatever?
Basically, I'm paranoid now that I'm assuming the washed out picture on the PS4 is now correct or it might actually be incorrect because my TV is trying to accept it as full or whatever?
I wish I'd never seen this thread lol
I switched the PS4 to auto (which should set everything to limited right?) and everything is definitely brighter and one could even say washed out. I understand this is actually better though and I just need to get used to it.
HOWEVER, my question is, the other components I have hooked up (TiVo Roamio, apple tv, etc) all appear much darker than the PS4. easiest way to compare this is to watch netflix on tivo and then netflix on PS4. Is this because my other components are outputting as CMYK or whatever?
Basically, I'm paranoid now that I'm assuming the washed out picture on the PS4 is now correct or it might actually be incorrect because my TV is trying to accept it as full or whatever?
I wish I'd never seen this thread lol
I work in TV. 'Limited' range is actually the standard for HD broadcast and media. We've had confusion over this for decades, even professionals get it wrong regularly so don't feel bad if you're confused.
Here's a quick oversimplified off-the-top-of-head explanation.
This is how an 8-bit RGB monitor like your PC screens see the gray scale.
But all the way back in 1982 there was a standard (rec 601) created that declared a pure black picture would be 16 and pure white would be 235. This was because the analog video signals would need to store more than just picture information - they had to pass on blanking signals and allow a bit of space for transients, etc. and so they'd have to reserve 0-16 as well as 235-255.
So here's what TV screens (not PC monitors) have been doing for the past many decades:
Well it's now the 21st century, almost every screen is getting signals digitally and without blanking signals and electrical weirdness through the cable so there's no more need for those goblins. TVs no longer display just TV stuff - people are plugging in from their PCs/game console, treating TVs like RGB monitors. But the standards haven't changed, which is why we still shoot video in the 16-235 range and why blu-rays are still encoded with the idea of 16-235, and the TV you get through cable and the airwaves is still 16-235. Your TV still knows that 16 is black, and 235 is white.
As long as your TV knows what number is black and what number is white, everything is fine. It doesn't matter if it's 0, 16, 235, or 255. They are just numbers.
'Full range' and 'limited range' is just telling your TV what numbers to expect. There is NO discernible difference in picture quality, unless you've got the setting wrong.
I can have a great conversation with a French guy in French, just as I can a Japanese guy in Japanese, assuming we speak the same language. It would be weird (but interesting) to swap languages though.
EDIT: bonus content, what happens when you got the setting wrong.
tl;dr - just leave your TV on 'limited range' and change everything else to suit, because thinking too much about it is wasting your time, and complaining about the lack of full range is a waste of everybody's time.
Here's a quick oversimplified off-the-top-of-head explanation.
This is how an 8-bit RGB monitor like your PC screens see the gray scale.
Code:
RGB monitor, eg. PC screens
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
0 255
BLACK WHITEBut all the way back in 1982 there was a standard (rec 601) created that declared a pure black picture would be 16 and pure white would be 235. This was because the analog video signals would need to store more than just picture information - they had to pass on blanking signals and allow a bit of space for transients, etc. and so they'd have to reserve 0-16 as well as 235-255.
So here's what TV screens (not PC monitors) have been doing for the past many decades:
Code:
TV screens
|------|------------------------------------------------------------------|------|
0 16 235 255
BLACK WHITE
< invisible goblins > more goblinsWell it's now the 21st century, almost every screen is getting signals digitally and without blanking signals and electrical weirdness through the cable so there's no more need for those goblins. TVs no longer display just TV stuff - people are plugging in from their PCs/game console, treating TVs like RGB monitors. But the standards haven't changed, which is why we still shoot video in the 16-235 range and why blu-rays are still encoded with the idea of 16-235, and the TV you get through cable and the airwaves is still 16-235. Your TV still knows that 16 is black, and 235 is white.
As long as your TV knows what number is black and what number is white, everything is fine. It doesn't matter if it's 0, 16, 235, or 255. They are just numbers.
'Full range' and 'limited range' is just telling your TV what numbers to expect. There is NO discernible difference in picture quality, unless you've got the setting wrong.
I can have a great conversation with a French guy in French, just as I can a Japanese guy in Japanese, assuming we speak the same language. It would be weird (but interesting) to swap languages though.
EDIT: bonus content, what happens when you got the setting wrong.
Code:
TV screen set to 'full range' but signal coming in is 'limited range'
SIGNAL |------------------------------------------------------------------|
^ supposed to be black ^ supposed to be white
TV |------|------------------------------------------------------------------|------|
0 16 235 255
^ dark gray ^ not quite white
Result: washed out
Code:
TV screen set to 'limited range' but signal coming in is 'full range'
0 16 235 255
SIGNAL |--------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
^ supposed to be black ^ supposed to be white
^ supposed to be dark gray ^ supposed to be almost white
TV |------------------------------------------------------------------|
16 235
^ black ^ white
<-----> <----->
lost information lost information
Result: very contrasty crushed blacks and whitestl;dr - just leave your TV on 'limited range' and change everything else to suit, because thinking too much about it is wasting your time, and complaining about the lack of full range is a waste of everybody's time.
Zeyphersan
Banned
Thank you very much for the explanation, that's really helpful.
Another question for you: there was a thread on here a while back about how it's important to have a TV that supports 4:4:4 chroma, what is that and why is it important?
(Question is open to anyone who can help)
Here you go. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread
I never thought it was important, and again I think it's so negligible to fuss over. I highly doubt you'd be able to see the difference on modern screens which I reckon should be at least 4:2:2. The majority of stuff you've been watching your entire life has never even been 4:4:4, so I suggest ignorance is bliss
The only time I really notice it is on the Wii U gamepad, where you see red parts 'bleed out'. It looks like it was encoded something like 4:2:0 or 4:1:1... It's a side effect of data bandwidth.
I never thought it was important, and again I think it's so negligible to fuss over. I highly doubt you'd be able to see the difference on modern screens which I reckon should be at least 4:2:2. The majority of stuff you've been watching your entire life has never even been 4:4:4, so I suggest ignorance is bliss
The only time I really notice it is on the Wii U gamepad, where you see red parts 'bleed out'. It looks like it was encoded something like 4:2:0 or 4:1:1... It's a side effect of data bandwidth.
Zeyphersan
Banned
Here you go. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread
I never thought it was important, and again I think it's so negligible to fuss over. I highly doubt you'd be able to see the difference on modern screens which I reckon should be at least 4:2:2. The majority of stuff you've been watching your entire life has never even been 4:4:4, so I suggest ignorance is bliss
The only time I really notice it is on the Wii U gamepad, where you see red parts 'bleed out'. It looks like it was encoded something like 4:2:0 or 4:1:1... It's a side effect of data bandwidth.
Ignorance is probably bliss, but knowledge is also power. I'll take my chances, thanks a bunch.
This.
Yep, it's good to know. Check out wikipedia, scroll down to the red/green images and you'll see the effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling
Pure red over green is kind of the worst-case scenario and very rarely happens in natural video (or in anyone's design palette).
Here's another bunch of interesting comparisons:
http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/video-chroma-subsampling
The important thing to remember is that a lot of this sub-sampling happens when video is encoded or captured, NOT at the TV side. Which is why, for all intents and purposes, you should ignore the spec when you're buying a TV and focus more on the important parts of picture quality that your eye actually sees - black/white levels and color reproduction accuracy.
Hero of Legend
Member
What about TV's that don't have the options like my Phillips 32" 720p TV?
My Wii U seems to look just fine. Watching Sonic Lost World's cutscenes, they're bursting with color. Wii games seem to look washed out in comparison? But that might be a DVD vs Blu-ray thing since I notice this as well between that in movies.
I assume HDTV's have it at Limited by default if there's no option?
My Wii U seems to look just fine. Watching Sonic Lost World's cutscenes, they're bursting with color. Wii games seem to look washed out in comparison? But that might be a DVD vs Blu-ray thing since I notice this as well between that in movies.
I assume HDTV's have it at Limited by default if there's no option?
Either there's no option, or there's one but you haven't found it. Doesn't really matter because I'm pretty sure TVs are set to Limited by default anyway.
So there should be nothing wrong with the Wii, but overall I have the impression that many of its games have more "pastel" colors in general.
Good assumption. You should be fine leaving as is.
I bet the color differences you notice are more to do with art design rather than TV settings.
edit: beaten!
Hero of Legend
Member
I can try hooking up my near borked 360 to see if the option makes if Full-Range looks better or worse when enabled.
Well some people mistake crushed blacks and whites - extra contrast - as being 'better'.
I've seen it posted on so many forums, so just watch out for that, as you're basically throwing away detail in the shadows and the highlights.
Again, if it's an HDTV without a range setting, it will be set correctly to 'limited'.
I've seen it posted on so many forums, so just watch out for that, as you're basically throwing away detail in the shadows and the highlights.
Again, if it's an HDTV without a range setting, it will be set correctly to 'limited'.
darkazcura
Member
Found the setting. My TV has been set to auto the whole time so I assume I'm good? I've never noticed any washed out colors or crushed blacks with my games anyway, but I was still interested on checking it out because I always feel like my blu rays are a little off...
Of course, these are the same people that won't put optical out ports or ethernet ports into their consoles because 90% of their customers won't need them. Granted, all it would take add this as an option is a firmware update as opposed to an out-and-out hardware refresh.
To be fair to Nintendo, the device is not meant to be used with a monitor. When using the Wii U with consumer HDTV and legacy displays, Limited is the standard. Not having a Full setting eliminates any confusion for the less technically inclined. If your HDTV isn't able to present the limited signal correctly, it's an issue with your display.
Having said that, Nintendo is notorious for not providing options. They managed to go through their entire console history without ever providing an optical or coaxial digital output for audio. They won't even provide an ethernet port on their consoles. The Wii U is the first console they have produced with an option for digital audio.
Having said that, Nintendo is notorious for not providing options. They managed to go through their entire console history without ever providing an optical or coaxial digital output for audio. They won't even provide an ethernet port on their consoles. The Wii U is the first console they have produced with an option for digital audio.
Mithos
Member
Running on a HD-CRT myself, (Philips 32PW9551) over HDMI, I have not a single clue what mode it supports. Its awesome running on CRT though since it hides jaggies and/or color banding MUCH better then any LCD TV I have played on/watched movies of different formats on.
That's because Limited is the standard for all HDTV and legacy displays. The issue he's having is that he's attempting to connect it to a computer monitor which only looks correct when receiving a Full RGB signal.
took some pictures to try and illustrate my confusion. my TV colorspace is set to auto. my tivo doesn't have a setting. my PS4 is set to automatic as well.
top pic is PS4 and bottom pic is TiVo. it's not as obvious in the pictures but the blacks appear much darker on my TiVo. is my TiVo crushing blacks or my PS4 washed out. Is this working properly?
top pic is PS4 and bottom pic is TiVo. it's not as obvious in the pictures but the blacks appear much darker on my TiVo. is my TiVo crushing blacks or my PS4 washed out. Is this working properly?
Many people mistake Full as being better because they enable it and the immediate effect they see is what appears to be better contrast, so they're all like "man, this is better, why is this not default?" I made that exact mistake with my PS3 a few years ago, it took me a while to figure out why everything was so fucking dark all the time.
You have to display calibration patterns to assess what is going on. The easiest way to do this is to set your PS3 to limited and use a DVD or Blu-Ray to do a basic calibration on the display. One available on any THX certified disc should be sufficient. If you want to calibrate for full, then you are going to need to use test images and display them using a USB storage device or streaming over a DLNA server.
bequietdrive
Member
This. I have a Sony kdl42w653 and it doesn't have an option for limited or full range.
Well, I don't really plug my Bluray player to my PC monitor and expect a firmware update...
'but Playstation and Xbox...'
Yeah okay, fair enough. It's not a difficult update, I'm sure they'll get around to it some day.
Hero of Legend
Member
I tired my 360 and it's weird. Extended (Full) seems to make black shades blend but the colors all around seem better than Standard (Limited).
I accessed the shades image from here:
http://www.nicolaspeople.com/ch3rokeesblog/?p=16
Through my Wii U browser, and I saw every square, but on the GamePad, I couldn't see the ones on the top row, even with the brightness like at 3 on the GamePad.
So I guess my TV is Limited? Which is what I want.
Edit: Ah, as the paragraph says in said site:
Matches what I saw in Extended on my 360.
Limited it is!
It's funny though.... it looked better that way.
I accessed the shades image from here:
http://www.nicolaspeople.com/ch3rokeesblog/?p=16
Through my Wii U browser, and I saw every square, but on the GamePad, I couldn't see the ones on the top row, even with the brightness like at 3 on the GamePad.
So I guess my TV is Limited? Which is what I want.
Edit: Ah, as the paragraph says in said site:
Matches what I saw in Extended on my 360.
Limited it is!
It's funny though.... it looked better that way.