Citation needed.
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Digital Foundry vs Mario Kart 8
- Thread starter XDDX
- Start date
Citation needed.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying barely anyone will see it, and most of the people in the thread who now see it do because they've been told where to look.
It sucks for you (not you, the one I'm replying to, but a general you) if it makes the game unplayable though (because as far as I'm concerned, if something is "jarring" that makes it unplayable for me).
Your TV is 60hz (some of them 120), do you find watching movies "jarring" and do you notice the 6 double frames per second?
That's a poor way to put it. It's not a 1/64 difference. Or a single frame drop.
It's a consistent pause that happens like clockwork, every second or so. It's like the game is having hiccups.
Still, a lot of people won't be bothered, particularly the ones who can't tell the difference between 30 and 60fps. For other people, that would be the equivalent of trying to go to sleep when there's a tap constantly dripping.
And it's really not "nitpicking" from DF. They analyse framerates, and post the results.
It'd be like saying that a finance magazine is nitpicking because they list stock market changes and one company on the list has dropped by 0.05%.
If I tell people to look at this thread will they realize what the actual issue here is?
Who has a 30Hz TV? Are you posting from the thirties?
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I think people who are saying it's unnoticeable just need to understand that maybe you just don't know what to look for. And that's fine! I'm like that too, but I'm aware of it. I would never notice a 1fps drop for the life of me because I wouldn't be able to understand the signs if I saw them. To me a frame rate drop only becomes noticeable when something is noticeably running much choppier and that's it.
Similar to an audiophile telling me these headphones suck! They sound great to me but I don't understand the nuance and all that. To those that do this kind of stuff may seem obvious. You should be happy if you can't notice it. Ignorance is bliss yo. No need to tear down those poor poor souls who are sensitive to these things and knowledgeable about them.
Similar to an audiophile telling me these headphones suck! They sound great to me but I don't understand the nuance and all that. To those that do this kind of stuff may seem obvious. You should be happy if you can't notice it. Ignorance is bliss yo. No need to tear down those poor poor souls who are sensitive to these things and knowledgeable about them.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Tupolev, why are you even bothering? The guy stepped into a stutter-related thread not having the faintest idea.
it's definitely a bug (since it only appears when racing against AI), therefore it is patchable.
if Nintendo is going to do it is something different.
Yep, it's not the 59fps per se, but the stutter. I've skipped playing certain PC games because of such hiccups and will have to try MK8 out before I buy it. Hopefully a patch will be able to fix it.
I corrected it, I meant 120 and thought of the 29.xx frames per second for NTSC movies
KojiKnight
Member
The thing is, when the thread has gone on 15 pages, you're more likely to see tons of repeating bad info... which is what we have here. OP (rightfully so) doesn't have a highlight of all of the conversation, and even if it did so few people read and understand what is already there it would also make no difference.
Instead, you have one person quoting "59 fps" from someone, who then gets quoted and commented on ad nauseum.
Instead, you have one person quoting "59 fps" from someone, who then gets quoted and commented on ad nauseum.
ChainsawFilms
Member
The term "micro stutter" was being used to describe this duplicate frame. I was merely saying that was not the correct term, nothing more.
I'm not getting into an argument over it
Yes.
This is why I only watch films on my Kuro plasma which has a 72Hz mode allowing for proper 3:3 pulldown.
Pops Maellard
Member
In fairness, she probably does.
Yeah this is a pretty noticeable trend with long threads. The thread starts one way, evolves into something else with discussion, but people come in not wanting to read through a long thread, and skip through the progress of the discussion in the thread. Generally speaking this is why I try to read as much as a thread as possible, or at the very least the last few pages, before posting. Otherwise I might hastily react and come across looking foolish.
Of course not. Because that's not how it works.
IchigoSharingan
Member
Piece of fucking shitSo WiiU lacks just that bit of power to render one more little frame
There are tons of examples where 24p content judders in certain camera pans. That's why TV manufacturers have been implementing their own 24p modes for a while now.
One frame can make a big difference...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76MBDKQe8s&t=9m46s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76MBDKQe8s&t=9m46s
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
DF gonna DF. Still excited to play the game, and it seems to perform well.
justjustin
Member
lol what is happening? Are reactions to DF articles usually like this? It's a technical report of how a game performs. There is no logical difference between saying a game runs at 60fps and a game runs at 59.124675345fps. Tools measure the performance and sometimes different numbers appear.
prag16
Banned
Has this been 100% confirmed? If so, that's kinda lame... If that is indeed the case, I hope it makes it obvious to competitors in some way. We don't need to deal with people falsely claiming "oh no, you didn't pass me for the win on the last lap; that must have been the CPU; I got booted...".
EDIT: Ah, missed a post in which somebody explained how it works in MK7. I guess that's not too terrible (generic "Player" character replacing the guy who was dropped (more likely ragequit lol).
It's not a 1/64th difference. It's a 1/2 difference that happens for 2 out of every 64 frames.
You get 62 frames at 60fps
Then you get one at 30fps
Then you get 62 at 60fps
Then another one at 30fps
prag16
Banned
I'm assuming he didn't mention it sooner because he wanted to present the issue in context with his entire write-up, rather than cause a shitstorm before he could lay out the entire situation in detail.
Unfortunately there was always going to be a shitstorm either way, lol. Both with regard to possible concern trolling on one side, and overly super sensitive Nintendo fans on the other side. Those are just the facts of life.
revolverjgw
Member
There certainly is. A repeated frame is immediately apparent to me when I'm playing a 60fps game. And it's annoying.
whoa, calm down
This thread, man.
Well it would seem to be a strong indicator that most people probably won't notice, but really that is all it tells us. It could simply be that, say, 1 out of 100 might notice it without it being pointed out. Right now there aren't many copies out, come a week from now and some time later there will be millions. There is no doubt in my mind that more people would have noticed once it was out in the masses regardless of the article. The problem is obviously there, its not like it has been fabricated.
You still don't get it, do you.
prag16
Banned
I don't think he's saying the problem isn't there. I think he's speculating that many people who claim and will claim to be able to perceive the minor issue actually can't perceive it.
I know you are a legit poster with your history, etc, and I know you're not trolling. But damn, this post blows my mind. Unplayable??? Damn son. I can see it now at times in videos now that I know exactly what I'm looking for, but unplayable?
Serious question; if this is the case, wouldn't most console games be "basically unplayable" for you?
I guess I'm glad I'm not as sensitive to this as some.
Starfish Hero
Member
It's definitely noticeable.
And he's right, at least on that. I doubt this is a new issue. Anyone who has been following this game at all who hasn't noticed it until today has the article to thank for that. No shame in admitting it.
Starfish Hero
Member
double post
panda-zebra
Banned
one frame less fun?
No, all the frames are there, you get to see one of them for twice as long as around 60 or 70 others around it. So maybe around 1.5% more fun?
prag16
Banned
I notice the 24 fps issue with movies, if I'm consciously looking for it. But if I just relax and watch it doesn't jump out at me if I"m not thinking about it. Guess I'm lucky in that respect.
Lack of vsync on the other hand. Even subtle tearing that most claim to barely notice jumps out and punches me in the face.
I'm glad Wii U by and large is devoid of tearing with a couple exceptions.Long lost. After reuniting with B, C, E, G, P, T, V, and Z we shall have our clan reunited and be unstoppable!
It does seem a bit extreme, but on the other hand, it's possible to be very sensitive to artifacts happening at a regular interval, even if they're not actually disrupting you in a significant way.
Not sure how often I've experienced it in 60fps games, but I know I've had times in 30fps games where I had to restart after something bad happened under the hood and began producing a slight stutter once per second. Not because the game was literally unplayable, but because the feeling gets infuriating, it disrupts in the aesthetic rhythm. It's similar to someone breathing audibly at a regular interval when you're watching a movie.
It wouldn't surprise me if some people had that issue with a regular ~once-per-second repeat frame in a 60fps game.
(Since the discussion has brought it up: as someone who usually gets annoyed by stuttery characteristics in games, to the point that I usually prefer double-buffering to triple-buffering, I've oddly never been all that bothered by 3:2 pulldown. I dunno.)
I notice the 24 fps issue with movies, if I'm consciously looking for it. But if I just relax and watch it doesn't jump out at me if I"m not thinking about it. Guess I'm lucky in that respect.
Lack of vsync on the other hand. Even subtle tearing that most claim to barely notice jumps out and punches me in the face.
I wonder if it has more to do with "training" your eyes to notice it. What I mean is, if your eyes are used to seeing higher framerates, consistent framerates, on devices and media that offer the best fps experiences, it's more likely that your eyes are going to notice when something is off. So maybe it's less about how some people are just more naturally able to see the differences and more about how some people are just more accustomed to notice said differences. It's about what one's eyes are used to.
TheCongressman1
Member
Only thing that bothers me visually is the same thing almost every first party game on Wii U suffers from, lack of AA.
Why won't they use it?
Great post. I was thinking the same thing.
Why won't they use it?
Great post. I was thinking the same thing.
Saint Gregory
Member
I'm really taken aback by the fact that some people are getting outraged because DF is pointing out a technical deficiency with the game, which is the primary focus of their work. They're not a general review site which wouldn't be concerned with a small technical detail like this one which is probably why 99% of the reviews failed to mention or notice it.
If no one cared about what DF does then they would have gone out of business long ago but clearly people do care hence the 16 page thread.
If no one cared about what DF does then they would have gone out of business long ago but clearly people do care hence the 16 page thread.
This irritates me as well, I thought the decision to go with 720P was to allow space in the framebuffer for an AA solution. They had been getting much better with AA in their past few releases (SM3DW, DKTF) but it looks like this game didn't benefit from whatever methods they were using for those games.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Which review(s) mentioned or noticed it???
I completely agree. Spend 99% of your gaming time with perfectly even, flawlessly rendered 60fps + vsync and you will start noticing every bit of stutter and/or screen tearing when it's there. And once you're "trained", it doesn't take much at all for you to notice... at all.
I think Nintendo hasn't really heard of AA yet.
Probably because the FPS will drop below 60 once enabled. DKC had some and so did SM3DW, but the fast paced MK8 doesn't really need it, you're not staring at buildings your paying attention to your kart and I believe the character models have AA.
I think 3D world has AA IIRC
Saint Gregory
Member
Well they are really the only ones so I probably should have rounded that up to 100%.