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[Orayn]

The frame duplication sounds pretty strange. Hopefully it's just a bug and they can patch it, since it doesn't sound like the game suffers from any major technical or performance issues anywhere else.

Also, the alternating frame updates in splitscreen sounds like a novel way of doing things. Wonder if it has any effect on the overall feel?

 

[Thrakier]

I don't think he's saying the problem isn't there. I think he's speculating that many people who claim and will claim to be able to perceive the minor issue actually can't perceive it.

But his explanation is completely off. It's not about that one frame. It's if you can see judder in an engine or if you can't. The moment you get out of sync ur engine is fucked. No matter if 59, 64 or 19 fps. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Orayn]

I think 3D world has AA IIRC

Digital Foundry says it uses some fairly basic edge-detection AA method. Probably post-processing rather than MSAA if I had to guess.

 

[Amazeballs]

It's not an issue for me, and I'm pretty sensitive to frame rates and stutter issues. In any case I don't see a reason for the game repeating every 59th frame. Seems like a bug.

No, all the frames are there, you get to see one of them for twice as long as around 60 or 70 others around it. So maybe around 1.5% more fun?

The game looks so good that Nintendo wants you to appreciate every 59th frame for twice as long.

 

[TheCongressman1]

Probably because the FPS will drop below 60 once enabled. DKC had some and so did SM3DW, but the fast paced MK8 doesn't really need it, you're not staring at buildings your paying attention to your kart and I believe the character models have AA.

I played it at Gamestop the other day and it is very noticeable the entire time.

Of course, I have to say it, it's not a dealbreaker, it's just annoying.

 

[PreyingShark]

Well they are really the only ones so I probably should have rounded that up to 100%.

Don't worry; I'm sure that soon after release we'll have a review on Metacritic that is essentially, "This game sux 'cuz framerate 0/10"

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I can't notice the stuttering in videos, but it's a problem I wish wasn't there. The lack of anti-aliasing doesn't look good either.

The rest of the game looks amazing, though and I'm sure it will play like a dream.

 

[Ty4on]

Only thing that bothers me visually is the same thing almost every first party game on Wii U suffers from, lack of AA.

Why won't they use it?

Proper AA is demanding and not very noticeable.
Edit:

I think 3D world has AA IIRC

Nope. It just blurred them.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-12-06-super-mario-3d-world-technology-gallery

 

[civilstrife]

creorder pancelled.

 

[SapientWolf]

59 FPS!?!?? THATS A FUCKING SLIDESHOW.

Spoiler

Who cares tho

Alternating between 59 and 60fps looks horrific if it happens often enough. Or more specifically, patterns of repeated frames paired with skipped frames looks horrific. Which is why freesync/gsync HDTVs can't come soon enough.

 

[Ty4on]

Alternating between 59 and 60fps looks horrific if it happens often enough. Which is why freesync/gsync HDTVs can't come soon enough.

30fps every 64 frames or more correctly 33ms. FPS is only an average every second which is helpful when rendering things, but not when judging smoothness.

 

[HTupolev]

Alternating between 59 and 60fps looks horrific if it happens often enough. Or more specifically, patterns of repeated frames paired with skipped frames looks horrific. Which is why freesync/gsync HDTVs can't come soon enough.

It'll at least help in cases where a game is doing something like "steadily running at ~59fps". If stuttering is being caused by something like a massive spike in CPU cost on one frame out of 60 (which might be similar to what's happening here, it's unclear), gsync isn't going to save you.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Don't worry; I'm sure that soon after release we'll have a review on Metacritic that is essentially, "This game sux 'cuz framerate 0/10"

What bums me out about this is I was looking forward to having bots fill in when people quit/get DC'd during races.

Bots will be unwelcome guests now

 

[Apophis2036]

This irritates me as well, I thought the decision to go with 720P was to allow space in the framebuffer for an AA solution. They had been getting much better with AA in their past few releases (SM3DW, DKTF) but it looks like this game didn't benefit from whatever methods they were using for those games.

I think this is one of the reasons Nintendo are going to combine their development studios so they can work more closely together, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the teams simply don't know how to use AA. We have to remember this is a lot of their development teams first ever HD efforts.

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

lol

Surprise, surprise. 1280x720. Now I and my down-voted Reddit posts about how people should be skeptical that the game is 1080p are vindicated!

Spoiler

This stuff doesn't really bother me.

Pre-order

Spoiler

not

canceled.

 

[SapientWolf]

It'll at least help in cases where a game is doing something like "steadily running at ~59fps". If stuttering is being caused by something like a massive spike in CPU cost on one frame out of 60 (which might be similar to what's happening here, it's unclear), gsync isn't going to save you.

Well, it helped with Trials Fusion. That game stutters like a mo with gsync off, and the FPS counter is going from 59 to 60 almost constantly.

 

[Reg]

Looks perfect to me.

 

[Gillian Seed]

Amazing looking game, i prefer 60 (or 59) fps over antialiasing, i'm sure the jaggies won't be noticeable during gameplay.

This is by far the best looking game on the system in my opinion, and hopefully they'll use the experience from this game to a 3D platformer for the system, because SM3DW didn't look that good i think.

You honestly think it looks better than Wind Waker HD?

 

[StuBurns]

It blows my mind someone could think 3D World doesn't look good and this does. I really don't understand.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Piece of fucking shit

lol

 

[HTupolev]

Well, it helped with Trials Fusion. That game stutters like a mo with gsync off, and the FPS counter is going from 59 to 60 almost constantly.

Makes sense. Trials Fusion is hectic, but under the hood the game is all about predictable and mild worst-case scenarios. I would expect that the engine load is changing relatively little from one frame to the next, at least considering what can be happening on-screen.

 

[NotLiquid]

It blows my mind someone could think 3D World doesn't look good and this does. I really don't understand.

Both games are amazing in their use of art style honestly. Sure, Kart "looks" more fleshed out and detailed, but 3D World's nuances are equally befitting it's design. It's got a plethora of charm and it moves greatly.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

Okay, so my TV displays 1080p games with beautiful finess, especially for its size. But when I play 720p games, they show an obvious lack of fidelity (not incredibly massive, but clear enough to see a difference(jaggies mostly)).

So what can I do to my TV to make 720p games less jaggie and more smooth? I don't want to have those jaggies distracting me from glorious Mario Kart action!


[This statement is me admitting that when most people claim the difference between 720p and 1080p is unnoticeable, I cringe. It is.]

 

[Hoje0308]

I wouldn't complain if my games ran at 59 fps. That said, it's actually comforting to know that they pick up on these things, but it also makes their oversights seem more suspicious.

 

[Raysoul]

http://a.pomf.se/klatyq.webm

Notice the pausing.

Harder to see it here, and I don't want to force myself to see it more. But hopefully this will be fixed.

 

[PotionBleue]

Okay, so my TV displays 1080p games with beautiful finess, especially for its size. But when I play 720p games, they show an obvious lack of fidelity (not incredibly massive, but clear enough to see a difference(jaggies mostly)).

So what can I do to my TV to make 720p games less jaggie and more smooth? I don't want to have those jaggies distracting me from glorious Mario Kart action!

Maybe look into your TV settings. You may have a Sharpness value too high.

 

[BruiserBear]

I wouldn't complain if my games ran at 59 fps. That said, it's actually comforting to know that they pick up on these things, but it also makes their oversights seem more suspicious.

It's not just that it runs at 59fps. It's actually repeating a frame in there, which is why this is noticeable to some people.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

Maybe look into your TV settings. You may have a Sharpness value too high.

Okay. I'll try that when I get the chance.


I'm just wondering if the difference would be noticeable on a different TV.

For example:

720p through a 720p monitor
Versus
720p through a 1080p monitor

 

[copelandmaster]

http://a.pomf.se/gdqvuj.webm

Around the 9 to 11 second mark as Mario is rounding the corner, you can see it pretty well in the words "Star Cup" as it goes by.

http://a.pomf.se/klatyq.webm

Notice the pausing.

I can see it. I don't even have to look for it. This is very bothersome. The rest of you should try to view these vids in their own separate tabs.

This needs to be patched. I really hope this was not an intentional performance concession by Nintendo.

One frame can make a big difference...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76MBDKQe8s&t=9m46s

Holy shit...

 

[StuBurns]

There are basically no 720p TVs, but yes, if there were you could have per-pixel mapping, and 720p games would look much nicer.

I can't believe no one ever designed and marketed a little 720p TV specifically for PS360 people.

 

[Vanillalite]

I played it at Gamestop the other day and it is very noticeable the entire time.

Of course, I have to say it, it's not a dealbreaker, it's just annoying.

This! Game still looks great, but you notice no AA. It's not something you don't see when driving. You do. It's noticeable the entire time. As Congressman said it's annoying, but oh well. Demo was still mad legit fun!!

 

[x86]

It's not just that it runs at 59fps. It's actually repeating a frame in there, which is why this is noticeable to some people.

I think a simple way of describing this is how you wouldn't be OK with "60 FPS" if that meant 1 frame was repeated for 0.5 seconds, and then the remaining half-second showed 59 frames total. The actual FPS isn't the issue; it's the stuttering / fluctuation.

 

[RMS Gigantic]

I can see it. I don't even have to look for it. This is very bothersome. The rest of you should try to view these vids in their own separate tabs.

This needs to be patched. I really hope this was not an intentional performance concession by Nintendo.

I didn't see it and I did look for it.

 

[Principate]

30fps every 64 frames or more correctly 33ms. FPS is only an average every second which is helpful when rendering things, but not when judging smoothness.

Isn't this well wrong it? It refreshes at 60 hz, and all 60 frames occur in a second, its just every 64 frame a frame is repeated. It shouldn't affect latency. It's simply a visual stutter. As stated in the article.

 

[boxter432]

http://a.pomf.se/klatyq.webm

Notice the pausing.

i can't, except for at :13

and I watched the star cup one from :09-:11 over and over and literally noticed nothing.

 

[Synth]

Isn't this well wrong it. It refreshes at 60 hz, and all 60 frames occur in a second, its just every 64 frame a frame is repeated. It shouldn't affect latency. It's simply a visual stutter. As stated in the article.

He's not talking about latency. He's talking about how long that image remains on screen. If the same frame is repeated, then it's the same as it not updating on that frame. So all the others remain on screen for 16ms, whilst this one remains on screen for twice as long (33ms).

 

[Kiant]

Got to be honest, I can't notice it in those webms.

 

[SapientWolf]

Makes sense. Trials Fusion is hectic, but under the hood the game is all about predictable and mild worst-case scenarios. I would expect that the engine load is changing relatively little from one frame to the next, at least considering what can be happening on-screen.

Well now that I think about it, if it's the game that's duplicating the frames (instead of dropping them) then the display device won't help any.

 

[KojiKnight]

Nope. It just blurred them.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-12-06-super-mario-3d-world-technology-gallery

They call that FXAA (or some variant of it)... and yes, it essentially it's just a post processing shader who's job is to blur aliasing

 

[Captain Europe]

I can't notice it either, and I usually have a good eye for detail. They should still patch it though.

But the people cancelling their pre-orders for this... smh.

 

[StuBurns]

He's not talking about latency. He's talking about how long that image remains on screen. If the same frame is repeated, then it's the same as it not updating on that frame. So all the others remain on screen for 16ms, whilst this one remains on screen for twice as long (33ms).

No, he isn't. At least, if he is, he's wrong.

The average TV doesn't have anything close to 0ms pixel switching, so there's no way full persistence is close to 33ms with a 30Hz game.

It's impossible to know how this is working, there are basically two options. Firstly a single frame is repeated, so your input for that frame is delayed 16ms, creating one frame per 64 with twice the latency, or more likely the polling is delayed 16ms and taken again at the start of the post-cloned frame. Making the latency for the input the same, but the time between inputs has doubled.

Either way you have an effective 33ms input once per 64 frames.

 

[copelandmaster]

To eliminate any browser errors, try downloading each webm and playing them in WMP or MPC.

The most obvious repeats in the 2nd one were passing under the rotating gear starting line on rainbow road. It's is a dead giveaway, the game hitches at least 2 times that I could see.

 

[Screamapillar]

Frame rate has never bothered me in a Mario Kart game before, and I've been playing for almost two decades... so why would I start worrying about it now. If anything, it's probably smoother in two or three or four player than any other Mario Kart before it.

 

[Principate]

He's not talking about latency. He's talking about how long that image remains on screen. If the same frame is repeated, then it's the same as it not updating on that frame. So all the others remain on screen for 16ms, whilst this one remains on screen for twice as long (33ms).

I understand but that weird as nomenclature you guys are using that's 33 millisecond your starting as if your using to refer to frame update time there should be dimensionless qualifier or well frames. It's like starting rpm in just as minutes. It's a not a consistent logic.

edit:StuBurns explained it, so I understand the logic behind. Seems fairly weird.

 

[Saint Gregory]

There are basically no 720p TVs, but yes, if there were you could have per-pixel mapping, and 720p games would look much nicer.

I can't believe no one ever designed and marketed a little 720p TV specifically for PS360 people.

There were 720P DLPs, I had one and it was magical even with 480P content from the Wii.

I just mentioned in other thread how much I miss that TV now. DLPs are perfect for gaming too as they have close to zero lag.

 

[KojiKnight]

I see we still haven't gotten confirmation on anything, but since it's been a few pages I want to restate what I've seen...

No frames are being "dropped" (that implies the engine is not rendering to save on resources). Instead the entire game seems to freeze every 64th frame (if you look at the GIF that shows the stutter, you see the freeze and then the game continues directly into the next frame, versus skipping ahead of a frame to "catch up").

The game essentially runs 1.5% slower when bots are in play... the game is doing something every 64 frames where it has to pause the entire game and it's in some way related to bots or mario kart TV (or a combination of both).

 

[Toparaman]

People who are getting upset over this need to chill. I find stuff like this interesting. And who knows, maybe Ninty can patch this?

 

[PreyingShark]

There were 720P DLPs, I had one and it was magical even with 480P content from the Wii.

I just mentioned in other thread how much I miss that TV now. DLPs are perfect for gaming too as they have close to zero lag.

They still make 720p HDTVs in general. >_> Usually smaller ones though

 

[boredandlazy]

DF gonna DF. Still excited to play the game, and it seems to perform well.

Are you implying that DF did something wrong here?

 

[Saint Gregory]

They still make 720p HDTVs in general. >_> Usually smaller ones though

You're right, I totally forgot about the smaller LCDs.