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[Griss]

I finished the game recently and I agree with everything you said. The game was a frustrating mess at many times, boss battles in particular were often terrible. All the weird minigames were crap and annoying to control, except for one which I wont spoil. The Gamepad sections were absolute trash, each and every single one of them. I found the level design to be lacking too, especially the chase sequences. Platforming was poor, like you said. The plot also started to grate on me aswell.

But somehow I still ended up enjoying the game enough to finish it. And honestly, all the frustration was worth it to see the final battle. It's seriously one of the greatest I've ever played in a videogame.

Alright, considering you seem to think the same way as me and liked the ending I guess I'll finish it.

I didn't even mention the terrible gamepad sequences or various bugs. The worst bug for me was the hydra battle in what I think is the first chapter. You have to fill its eye with dudes and no matter how many you cram in there nothing happens. Had to reset twice before it would work, tried it about 12 times each. Quite a few little annoying things like that in the game.

 

[jblank83]

What's interesting is that the other points about encounter design, genre-hopping and tone are all going uncommented on.

Let me get my opinion hat on and we can debate to the death, ultimately proving via rhetoric which side is factually right and wrong.

If you hate it don't play it. Or keep playing it all the way through before starting a controversial topic complete with sentences like "this game is fucking terrible (ok it's not really terrible)".

The beginning is slow until you get all the characters then it gets better and better and better.

As for not being able to see the main character, that's why there's a neon circle painted on the ground underneath him.

 

[Violence Jack]

I actually just started it last night. Even though I'm not exactly impressed with it so far from a gameplay standpoint, I see its potential once I unlock everything. Hell, just getting the spring which let me dodge attacks improved it enough.

But I will agree that everything is too small though. I keep losing my character in all the melee.

 

[Oberon]

I expected all the 'git gud' replies, as I said in my OP.

But I already watched the saur vids. I already understand the mechanics. As I said, I love the core mechanics. And I've beaten other Platinum games and enjoyed them without difficulty. I know you need to learn this stuff. I'm saying I find the actual action on the screen unreadable half the time, and I don't really believe that it's my fault.

What's interesting is that the other points about encounter design, genre-hopping and tone are all going uncommented on.

If you don't care for some spoilers, I highly recommend this review, and talks about the good and the bad things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYEb19dBGzc

 

[Altairre]

Geez man, stop being so casual. Everyone knows that a truly good game doesn't get good until at least 30 hours in.

Goddamn casuals ruining everything with their demands for "tutorials" and "readability" and "sensible encounter design".

OP makes me physically ill.

Firstly, it doesn't take 30 hours until it gets good, in fact even the earlier bosses are spectacular and I had one hell of a time even at a point where I didn't understand every mechanic and didn't know what to do when.

Secondly, the readability is absolutely there and for me a big part of the enjoyment came from figuring out how to deal with the enemies. I realise that this process is not for everyone but not every game has to be for everyone. I do agree that some of the mechanics could have been described better and that the tutorial is a bit lacking though.

Thirdly, here is a hint for the OP regarding battery time and health. If you use the attack-liner skill and energy convertor block you will rarely run out of battery and health ever again. Just draw straight lines repeatedly into the enemies and your battery will recharge extremely fast and once it is full so will your health.

 

[Marjar]

Alright, considering you seem to think the same way as me and liked the ending I guess I'll finish it.

I didn't even mention the terrible gamepad sequences or various bugs. The worst bug for me was the hydra battle in what I think is the first chapter. You have to fill its eye with dudes and no matter how many you cram in there nothing happens. Had to reset twice before it would work, tried it about 12 times each. Quite a few little annoying things like that in the game.

Whenever you have to fill something with all 100 dudes, the game almost always bugs and there will be one dude just hanging out and not responding at all. It's extremely annoying and amazes me that it wasn't fixed.

The game definitely has some issues.

 

[Kyzon]

That's the main problem of the game, once you've unlocked all the skills it becomes "playable".

A battle against 2 turtles without any of the hammer especial habilities is just wrong.

Tip them over with spike guts iirc

 

[Kai Dracon]

Hey dudes, sometimes it isn't a case of someone getting better at a game that you like and it's simply a case of they don't like the game that you do because of reasons.

I spent about 15 hours on this thing, was moderately okay at it, and I just couldn't get into it no matter how hard I tried (and believe me I tried, being the first Wii U game I got besides Mario Kart 8).

Game has good ideas but I couldn't get a feel for it. I dunno.

This is an important point in either direction.

Accepting that all games don't have to be for everyone applies both to people who like and dislike such a game. The Wonderful 101 ignites such passion in people because in a lot of ways it's a kind of game that we just don't get anymore. Because of that it earns extreme loyalty among people it clicks with.

But it's also very different from a lot of standard conventions. It is, by the admission of the developers, a conceptual experiment - trying to recreate the era when games were new, and every game was strange and challenging to figure out. Because there were no conventions and few expectations. But this means it is inevitable a lot of people will not enjoy it. It's not their fault or the game's fault, it's just the way it is.

 

[Lernaean]

Seriously, git gud.

First post and all.

 

[ElFly]

I agree that some of the abilities should be unlocked from the get-go, especially the spiky shield thing. That is invaluable.

This is endemic to Platinum games I think.

IIRC you have to buy dodge in Vanquish and Rising. Don't remember if it happened in Bayonetta too but I wouldn't be surprised.

OP is just weaksauce, tho but I agree the minigames are just a waste of time. They should have used those resources to add more enemies or bosses.

Also some of the QTEs just don't work. Remember an early sequence where I had to fill a chain of people and I just held the stick in the right direction, it would fill 99 dudes and never add the last one, and I would just fail for no reason. Eventually it just went through.

But when you are actually playing Devil May Pikmin, game is super ultra duper fantastic.

 

[Griss]

Firstly, it doesn't take 30 hours until it gets good, in fact even the earlier bosses are spectacular and I had one hell of a time even at a point where I didn't understand every mechanic and didn't know what to do when.

Secondly, the readability is absolutely there and for me a big part of the enjoyment came from figuring out how to deal with the enemies. I realise that this process is not for everyone but not every game has to be for everyone. I do agree that some of the mechanics could have been described better and that the tutorial is a bit lacking though.

Thirdly, here is a hint for the OP regarding battery time and health. If you use the attack-liner skill and energy convertor block you will rarely run out of battery and health ever again. Just draw straight lines repeatedly into the enemies and your battery will recharge extremely fast and once it is full so will your health.

Thanks for that tip, I'll try to buy that stuff next. Getting rid of battery issues would be a huge step forward for me.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

the first playthrough is the tutorial. You have to invest the time to get the rewards.

Ugh.

 

[Dimmle]

Geez man, stop being so casual. Everyone knows that a truly good game doesn't get good until at least 30 hours in.

Goddamn casuals ruining everything with their demands for "tutorials" and "readability" and "sensible encounter design".

OP makes me physically ill.

I see what you're up to

 

[Mesoian]

I expected all the 'git gud' replies, as I said in my OP.

But I already watched the saur vids. I already understand the mechanics. As I said, I love the core mechanics. And I've beaten other Platinum games and enjoyed them without difficulty. I know you need to learn this stuff. I'm saying I find the actual action on the screen unreadable half the time, and I don't really believe that it's my fault.

What's interesting is that the other points about encounter design, genre-hopping and tone are all going uncommented on.

I honestly don't have any problem with the encounter design. When you realize that the game is trying to use crowd control tactics against you, something that you're normally doing against the game in other titles, it makes more sense about how you need to think about attacking each combat puzzle, especially when you start doing advanced things like recruiting enemies into your party in order to get rid of them quicker and make you stronger faster, and using large enemy weakness to get them into a stunned mode, allowing you to sweep up the rest of the fodder on the ground.

Most of the platforming in the game I don't have a problem with. The only level I really didn't like because of it was

Spoiler

Inside Vorkken

where the rotoscoping paired with the odd physics of certain weapons being used in the air can cause you to fall a lot. I had trouble with Lowrule the first time I went through it, but every subsequent time, it was super easy. Using the dash to group your party together and not worrying about if the edges are falling off or getting hit is a big part of managing the traversal of the game.

And yeah, battery converter is your friend and should be obtained as soon as possible.

 

[Xav]

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Ugh.

He isn't wrong though. First playthrough I was doing pretty badly. You learn the mechanics and get the upgrades then on NG+ you get way better.

 

[bananafactory]

He isn't wrong though. First playthrough I was doing pretty badly. You learn the mechanics and get the upgrades then on NG+ you get way better.

That's fine but some people like myself can't be bothered to play through a game twice. I've got too many games in my backlog to use an entire playthrough of one as a tutorial.

 

[Mesoian]

Alright, considering you seem to think the same way as me and liked the ending I guess I'll finish it.

I didn't even mention the terrible gamepad sequences or various bugs. The worst bug for me was the hydra battle in what I think is the first chapter. You have to fill its eye with dudes and no matter how many you cram in there nothing happens. Had to reset twice before it would work, tried it about 12 times each. Quite a few little annoying things like that in the game.

That's not a bug, you gotta feather the stick back and forth at the end.

 

[Griss]

That's fine but some people like myself can't be bothered to play through a game twice. I've got too many games in my backlog to use an entire playthrough of one as a tutorial.

Exactly how I feel. Only reason I'll play through a game twice if if it was stunning the first time around. Doesn't work the opposite way. Maybe it used to when I was a kid.

 

[Peltz]

Alright, considering you seem to think the same way as me and liked the ending I guess I'll finish it.

I didn't even mention the terrible gamepad sequences or various bugs. The worst bug for me was the hydra battle in what I think is the first chapter. You have to fill its eye with dudes and no matter how many you cram in there nothing happens. Had to reset twice before it would work, tried it about 12 times each. Quite a few little annoying things like that in the game.

As someone who loves this game, I agree about this criticism. There are times when this particular mechanic is simply janked and broken as hell, and refuses to work for absolutely no reason.

Otherwise, git gud. The game is a love letter to all that is awesome. If you grew up in the 8-bit or 16-bit era, you will feel right at home after experimenting with the mechanics in W101. It simply requires more engagement on the player's part.

 

[Coffee Dog]

That's not a bug, you gotta feather the stick back and forth at the end.

No, don't you understand, it's the game's fault!

Exactly how I feel. Only reason I'll play through a game twice if if it was stunning the first time around. Doesn't work the opposite way. Maybe it used to when I was a kid.

And that's perfectly fine. Not all games have to be instantly gratifying, and there's plenty out there that are more accommodating to your needs.

 

[andymcc]

That's fine but some people like myself can't be bothered to play through a game twice. I've got too many games in my backlog to use an entire playthrough of one as a tutorial.

it's a call back to playing old arcade games where you learned the systems to become a good and flashy player. this took replaying the game again and again to clear it on a single difficulty loop. i don't really see the game as so far divorced from this perspective of design.

 

[Chezzymann]

He isn't wrong though. First playthrough I was doing pretty badly. You learn the mechanics and get the upgrades then on NG+ you get way better.

Yeah, if you have to play the game twice to understand the mechanics well, then that's bad game design. A good game lets you instantly understand what's going on and naturally 'get' what to do, you shouldn't have to watch a bunch of youtube videos and play a lot to 'git good', or in other words, actually understand the game's design.

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Meh, W101 is one of my favourite games of all time. I can see why the game isn't for everyone though.

 

[EulaCapra]

It's a good game, but far from a great game for me.

Difficulty is okay, but throwing you into the deep with a bunch of game mechanics and not peeling layer by layer is not. It was worthwhile enough to see it through, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't thankful a mission was over. It just gets frustratingly incoherent at times.

 

[Messofanego]

Haven't played the game but good OP because of the elaboration whereas other thread OPs don't bother and let everyone else fight it out.

 

[MrBadger]

I think there are too many people who say the game's perfectly fine once you get used to it for it to be the game's fault. I know TW101 isn't for everyone with its learning curve and not the most initiative tutorials ever but I'd say it's a fantastic game for those who do have the patience to get its controls down.

 

[Griss]

No, don't you understand, it's the game's fault!



And that's perfectly fine. Not all games have to be instantly gratifying, and there's plenty out there that are more accommodating to your needs.

You're right of course. I'm perfectly happy that so many people love this game. Just wanted to throw my opinion out there and see how they'd defend it.

Haven't played the game but good OP because of the elaboration whereas other thread OPs don't bother and let everyone else fight it out.

Thanks. If you're going to aim at a beloved game you need to be honest and precise, imo.

 

[atr0cious]

Exactly how I feel. Only reason I'll play through a game twice if if it was stunning the first time around. Doesn't work the opposite way. Maybe it used to when I was a kid.

W101 is the only action game where the players effort equates to the efficiency and strength of the playable character. Not every game needs to have instant gratification, and Bayonetta 2 is the inverse of this game, where its all about effortlessly destroying people. W101 is literally about managing a group of people and how difficult that is, so the fact that the controls aren't press X to awesome is pretty refreshing.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Hey dudes, sometimes it isn't a case of someone getting better at a game that you like and it's simply a case of they don't like the game that you do because of reasons.

THIS. Seriously. This x1000. There are some nice replies in this thread, but the majority of the "git gud" (with no other context) replies are laughable at best.

Griss, I commend you on the LTTP, nicely elaborated, and it confirmed some suspicions I had about this game. Doesn't sound like the combat/action/encounter design would be something that I'd enjoy, for exactly a lot of the reasons you mentioned. And no, in contrast to some replies here, I don't want to spend an entire playthrough of the game just to get a handle of the basics. If I need to do that, then the game is not "hardcore," it's just not greatly designed. I should have a basic understanding of the game by the time I'm done.

 

[Griss]

W101 is the only action game where the players effort equates to the efficiency and strength of the playable character. Not every game needs to have instant gratification, and Bayonetta 2 is the inverse of this game, where its all about effortlessly destroying people. W101 is literally about managing a group of people and how difficult that is, so the fact that the controls aren't press X to awesome is pretty refreshing.

Just to reiterate as some people might be confused - I love the controls of W101. The controls are great, and the game controls great. I made that perfectly clear. That's not an issue for me.

 

[Mesoian]

2013 GOTY.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[megabytecr]

Sorry to hear you are not enjoying it, the game requires some dedication, but I love it, one of the most refreshing games I have played.

I am doing my first playthrough on easy to have a chance to learn the game well without getting frustrated, and still sometimes I get my ass kicked, but it is cool to find ways to get better and how to fight certain enemies. This comes from someone who is not good at action fighting games.

 

[Coffee Dog]

THIS. Seriously. This x1000. There are some nice replies in this thread, but the majority of the "git gud" (with no other context) replies are laughable at best.

Griss, I commend you on the LTTP, nicely elaborated, and it confirmed some suspicions I had about this game. Doesn't sound like the combat/action/encounter design would be something that I'd enjoy, for exactly a lot of the reasons you mentioned. And no, in contrast to some replies here, I don't want to spend an entire playthrough of the game just to get a handle of the basics. If I need to do that, then the game is not "hardcore," it's just not greatly designed. I should have a basic understanding of the game by the time I'm done.

But you do understand the basics. But they are just that: the basics. The game is really deep and complex; there wouldn't be a way to convey that gameplay depth in one playthrough unless the game was even harder.

also, lol @ implying that learning curves are poor design

If you can master everything in a game and demonstrate that mastery in just a scant few hours, that's a far greater implication of shallow design, if anything.

 

[PensivePen]

Not every game needs to have instant gratification, and Bayonetta 2 is the inverse of this game, where its all about effortlessly destroying people.

Assuming Bayonetta 2's difficulty is on par with the first it ought to be fairly challenging as well. Its mechanics are a more straightforward than 101, but I think the execution is about as difficult.

 

[Mesoian]

Assuming Bayonetta 2's difficulty is on par with the first it ought to be fairly challenging as well. Its mechanics are a more straightforward than 101, but I think the execution is about as difficult.

It is, especially when you consider that the high level techinques in Bayonetta are shared by w101.

 

[ItsTheNew]

Bayonetta and MGR weren't as obtuse and are much more fun than w101. I've played the GOW and DMC series along with Viewtiful Joe...but God Hand and W101 are compatible in the fact that the "good parts" are frankly mediocre compared to what else is out there.

 

[Dimmle]

I have no opinion on W101, but I find it interesting that you (OP) have a Little King's Story avatar, as that's a game I love but find similarly flawed.

 

[Magnet_Man]

That's the main problem of the game, once you've unlocked all the skills it becomes "playable".

A battle against 2 turtles without any of the hammer especial habilities is just wrong.

Use guts when they try to stomp, use fist on the underside, one is dead in 10 seconds. Truly, the most unplayable difficulty. With its optional Easy and Very Easy modes available.

Bart: I thought you wanted a challenge.
Lisa: Duh. A challenge I could do.

 

[JCX]

I agree with the genre-switch complaint, but for a different reason. By the time you finally collect all the Wonderful Ones the genre switches become more frequent. It's like training for one sport and then being told on game day that you have to play 3 other sports you didn't prep for.

The battle system is truly, kinetically fun. Sometimes I just replay it to see what sort of combos I can create.


W101 brings up an interesting question though: Do gamers want to learn new combat/movement systems anymore? It seems like most genres have homogenized features over time (based on what consumers like). W101 doesn't really offer an improvement on traditional character action mechanics, just a different way to play that most (myself included) are not initially comfortable with.

 

[Chezzymann]

Well, I have some bad news for you.

What's the bad news? Its not his fault. A good game should ease you into the game so you learn its mechanics and then build on what you know, not just drop it all right on you. The action is unclear, because it takes hours upon hours to learn how to read it and understand what's going on. That's bad design. Good design makes it easy for people of any skill level to understand whats happening on screen and how to deal with it, and then layer on more difficult rewards for people that understand the game in a deeper way as you continue on with the game.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

So, about the turtles... this game isn't as restrictive as it seems. You can just block one of the turtles to stagger it, lure the other turtle into spawning fire from the floor and then just drawing a really big fist instead of a hammer. The fist gets powered up by the fire and you can easily flip the staggered turtle over for a decent combo. Finish it off with giving it a throw with the whip and then switch to doing the same on the other turtle.

I will agree that the game isn't very good at suggesting these more complex mechanics, but at the same time it's been such a long time since I played a game that demands systems exploration on the part of the player. If you're not willing to experiment a lot, you'll never enjoy this game to the fullest, and unfortunately so many games completely shun this idea in the name of "good design". I don't know what to tell you, OP. Maybe you just don't like unconventional games that require you to leave your preconceptions at the door in order to figure everything else out. Where your leader is located isn't really all that important once you get the hang of things since you'll have the correct solution for every enemy attack in your arsenal. You'll gladly take those hits to the face because you know you can dodge/block/parry/counter at the right moment. Too bad about the performance issues though, they make it much harder than it would have needed to be. Also massive amounts of aliasing are one of the reasons it's hard to tell what is going on in this game. WTB SGSSAA.

 

[Pompadour]

I don't think people are reading the entirety of OP's post when they just drive by post "get good" and that's it. I agree with nearly every one of the points outlined and I also have a similarly conflicted opinion. I think it's a great game I made myself finish and wanted desperately to end after the seventh or eighth climax.

The game is difficult at the beginning, especially before you buy the dodge mechanic (why you have to buy a mechanic so integral to success beats me) but it definitely isn't super hard. Around the halfway point I found it a little too easy. "Getting good" as I guess I must have done didn't make following the action or gathering up my troops any more bearable. In fact, one thing I hated that the OP didn't was the clunkiness of drawing out shapes. That was never fun.

 

[Mesoian]

Bayonetta and MGR weren't as obtuse and are much more fun than w101. I've played the GOW and DMC series along with Viewtiful Joe...but God Hand and W101 are compatible in the fact that the "good parts" are frankly mediocre compared to what else is out there.

What other game even compares to the "good parts" of w101?

What's the bad news? Its not his fault. A good game should ease you into the game so you learn its mechanics and then build on what you know, not just drop it all right on you. The action is unclear, because it takes hours upon hours to learn how to read it and understand what's going on. That's bad design. Good design makes it easy for people of any skill level to understand whats happening on screen and how to deal with it, and then layer on more difficult rewards for people that understand the game in a deeper way as you continue on with the game.

If he felt like he was getting snowed by the game's mechanics, he should have switched to easy until he felt like he fully grasped the situation.

 

[Devilgunman]

Unrelated to OP but I just notice that sealed W101 is sold out at many retailers (including Gamstop and Bestbuy). Now only Amazon has a new copy for $23.59

http://www.amazon.com/Wonderful-101-Nintendo-Wii-U/dp/B002I08CSW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411582281&sr=8-1&keywords=wonderful+101

If you're ever interest in this game, secure a copy before it's gone.

 

[Coffee Dog]

What's the bad news? Its not his fault. A good game should ease you into the game so you learn its mechanics and then build on what you know, not just drop it all right on you. The action is unclear, because it takes hours upon hours to learn how to read it and understand what's going on.. That's bad design. Good design makes it easy for people to understand whats happening on screen and how to deal with it, and then layer on more rewards for people that understand the game in a deeper way as you go.

What's unclear about it? The game starts you off controlling your tiny character in small scale battles against tiny dudes, then it adds more characters and more enemies and more abilities slowly.

Hell, one of the biggest problems is that it gives you abilities too slowly.

Not understanding what's going on is the player's fault, not the game's. If he doesn't want to have to pay attention, and doesn't want to lower the difficulty, then its not the game for him.

 

[Goldenmoney]

Sounds like you wish there was more hand holding. I personally loved the fact that Platinum left it up to us to learn how to play the game. Yes it was hard as all hell for me at first, but midway through the game is when I really caught on and started playing very well.

To respond to your points as shortly as I can:

I disagree about the group leader. Maybe it was because I was always sprinting, but I could see my leader just fine. Enemy attacks are supposed to be hard to read. The battery system is just like any other mana or stamina system. I never used items, so I won't comment on that. Collecting your team after getting hit is not hard at all, and once again it might be you not using the sprint button enough. I didn't play the trial missions.

Use the sword when you have enemies surrounding you. You can't just attack all enemies, sometimes you have to counter their attacks, either by dodging or using the jello thing (haven't played for a while so I can't remember the names of things). Same deal with the turtles, counter their attacks with good timing. I didn't care for the platforming stuff too much either, but I didn't hate it.

The game gets harder as you go on, so yeah they're going to give you tools to make certain things simpler.

Finally you make some good points about the camera and mini stuff. I didn't enjoy the parts where I had to go inside a building and look down at my gamepad. Controls were pretty wonky in these parts, and with the whole team inside it was hard to see what was going on.

Some things did get repetitive with the character's jokes, but it didn't bother me much. Story was pretty good in my opinion. The only character that annoyed me was the little kid, but in a good way I think. What a brat he was sometimes!

Operation 005 is about halfway if I remember correctly.

It's sad to see that you're giving up, but I'm sure there are a lot more people out there like you. Some people just don't want to put the effort in, which is fine I guess. You're going to miss out on the greatest ending to a video game in all of history though.

 

[ItsTheNew]

What other game even compares to the "good parts" of w101?

Just because the set pieces are nice and inventive doesn't mean the game is great to play.
Also: the entirety of Bayonetta and MGR

 

[Riposte]

A little disappointing when I see a big write up that does just boiling down to not getting it. TW101 is easily Platinum's most punishing game, but that's only as much of a flaw as the player is flawed.

If you don't care for some spoilers, I highly recommend this review, and talks about the good and the bad things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYEb19dBGzc

Only halfway through, but this is a good review. Recommended for post-play viewing.

 

[Arc Christelle]

You know... I wonder how Mega Man got popular after all these years with people like you existing, especially Battle Network (Bass, Protoman, and Quickman).

But all the shit you mentioned in the first two segments can be solved within game by unlocking shit and building a base for your characters. Especially Battery issues.

I know you put your heart into detailing your feelings, but this really is a case of you needing to get better and being overwhelmed by something that's not that difficult. The game constantly works like a puzzle and damn near every challenge has a solution/counter that not only require you to respond quickly, but also to think. How can you not appreciate that style of craftsmanship?