• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

LTTP: The Wonderful 101 - This utterly incredible game... isn't very good

Sub Boss

Member
Mar 6, 2013
21,852
1,595
715
I agree,it can be frustrating and tedius, but its NOT a terrible game, its just that the core concept is not good,too complicated or not implemented well, the game could have been (it still is)something truly special, but i didnt enjoy it because of the controls.
 

imae

Member
Nov 26, 2013
358
0
0
The game does have it's flaws, though I didn't encounter some of the bugs mentioned here.

But still, it's my most played probably my favourite game of 2013.

I didn't have a problem with drawing once I actually took a bit of time to practice the motions, and just to complete the game on Normal was not really that difficult.

Harder difficulties and going for high scores can be brutal at first, but by taking a bit of time to learn how your tools are best used, you will start raking in the Pure Platinums and I found that aspect to be extremely rewarding and fun.
Tweaking your approach to a certain mission/segment and having it work out just feels so good.
 

MrBadger

Member
Dec 5, 2013
9,124
1
0
Lol at those defensive posts.

The OP correctly identified several huge flaws in the camera, platforming, and leader control. I can tell there's a really fun game under this mess. Hopefully I'll find the motivation to try again.

So having a discussion about a well liked game in a thread where the title says it isn't very good is being defensive now? That seems a little dismissive. You can hardly just expect everyone to agree when some of OP's issues could be the fault of the player.
 

Fandangox

Member
Jan 15, 2013
13,272
0
0
Criticism about the camera in small spaces, alternate play modes disrupting the gameflow and making players learn an entirely new control scheme for a 2 minute segment that honestly adds nothing to the game other than to be a "ooh, I get the reference" moment, and the various glitches are legitimate problems with the game. The player blaming the game because they wasted all their resource energy on excessive and unnecessary actions for example, is not.

Yeah I think you pretty much stated the things I have a problem with the game, and the things I feel the game does truly well.
 

Peltz

Member
Apr 26, 2014
16,507
15
575
That's not a bug. You need to have 100 in your party. Any less and nothing happens. If you have less you have to hit the other head to make him vomit more people out. I can see why you didn't know that since I don't think the game ever tells you that. I had to look that part up to get passed it.

I thought I was just getting lucky when it finally clicked. Good to see there was some rhyme or reason for it. But, I understand that people want to be told this type of information.

But still, I rather have some cryptic gameplay with hidden depth than have everything explained to me. This game reminds me of NES Mega Man games where you'd get to a boss fight and your main weapon, plus your entire inventory was almost useless against him, and you'd have to use trial an error to figure out the right order to tackle the game. You'd then need to replay the entire level after getting a new weapon and it may still not work.

It harkens back to a time where this was how games were designed:



If you arrive at this point without the right stuff, it was a game over.

Similar stuff is happening in W101. Without experimentation, you'll never know how to quickly take out enemies like the turtles. But it's totally possible to beat even those guys well within 1 or 2 minutes when you figure everything out. We really need more old school games like this.

P.S. W101 is better than Bayonetta and Viewtiful Joe. It's Kamiya's best game. The only better Platinum game is Vanquish in my opinion.
 

MatrixMan.EXE

Member
Sep 1, 2014
9,210
0
0
Game of the Generation, so far, in my opinion. Has a semi-steep learning curve but stick to it, as it pays off. Honestly one of the most rewarding action games out there. It's fast paced, but at the same time you'll be surprised at how much leeway the game gives you to set up the longer combinations.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Jun 9, 2004
51,621
2,195
2,035
www.eurogamer.net
I'm sure it would be. Any game would be easier to learn if you took out the primary motivator for not getting hit.
I don't really care, I hate it. That ruined the game for me in a way that death in other games did not. It is a massive de-motivator. It doesn't make me want to learn the game, it makes me want to quit and never play it again.

Clearly some people enjoy it and didn't have issues with it but it absolutely destroyed the game.

That plus the bad technical performance ruined it for me. Plain and simple. I'm glad others could enjoy it despite that.

P.S. W101 is better than Bayonetta and Viewtiful Joe. It's Kamiya's best game. The only better Platinum game is Vanquish in my opinion.
The god awful frame-rate should keep it from being his best game. Good, stable performance is important in a game like this and Wonderful 101 fails miserably in that regard. Vanquish may only be 30 fps but it was at least relatively consistent. W101 ranges from 60 fps to 15 fps depending on the scene. It's awful.
 
Oct 26, 2013
388
0
0
Greensburg, Pennsylvania
No I definitely had 100 guys with me. Can't count how often I just stood there and waited until the hydra barfed my members out. Last guy just stands in front of the eye like an idiot.

Ya it's finicky for sure. To get through it, I stood kinda far away and walked the leader around in circles to make sure everyone went in. Then I walked the leader in. Hopefully that helps you.
 

Fandangox

Member
Jan 15, 2013
13,272
0
0
So having a discussion about a well liked game in a thread where the title says it isn't very good is being defensive now? That seems a little dismissive. You can hardly just expect everyone to agree when some of OP's issues could be the fault of the player.

To be fair:

Seriously, git gud.

Can't say it any better than that.


Some posts really don't try much to start a discussion. I do agree that the sentiment is to get better at it, but can certainly be argued in a much better way than that.
 

Goldenmoney

Member
May 23, 2013
1,547
0
0
Minnesota
Game of the Generation, so far, in my opinion. Has a semi-steep learning curve but stick to it, as it pays off. Honestly one of the most rewarding action games out there. It's fast paced, but at the same time you'll be surprised at how much leeway the game gives you to set up the longer combinations.

I think that is ultimately why I love this game so much. It's the most rewarding experience I've had playing a video game in a long time.
 

doowrah

Member
Oct 16, 2013
323
0
0
College Park, MD
If I'm honest, I didn't enjoy it either, but I'm very glad I played it because of the ludicrous and over the top presentation. But yes, I agree with the OP, it wasn't particularly fun for me.

As someone who had Pure Platted a third of the levels on hard before I stopped playing, I think I can say I had successfully learned the combat system. My biggest issues were that there were fixed combos to best beat each enemy, and as an extension of that, I very rarely felt like the combat was flowing freely as a result of my skill in reacting to and battling the enemies. I felt like I just putting square block in square hole...
 

Durden77

Member
Sep 12, 2012
7,410
0
510
The only problem I had with it was that every now and then the action simply just gets too chaotic, especially combined with the camera. But most of the time when you learned what to look for, this wasn't even that large of a problem.

I'm sorry OP, but I just think you're wrong. There is a very large learning curve if you really want to play it right, and it can be a bit awkward here and there, but the game is very far from terrible. In fact, it's one of my favorite games of this generation. Once you conquer it's gameplay, it gives you an unparalleled type of action and gameplay.
 

bobbychalkers

Member
Oct 11, 2010
11,684
0
0
29
I fucking love W101 but I can totally understand why some people wouldn't. It's Platinum's most obtuse game (not counting Infinite Space of course) but in terms of core gameplay mechanics I feel that everything is there for a reason.
 

SkeptiMism

Member
Oct 28, 2013
3,221
0
0
Finland
OP, ignore the typical "lol too hard for you" replies. Such a shame.

I mean, I absolutely loved the game and I disagree with you on many things, but you made a good long detailed post so it's really childish of people to counter it like that.

Anyway, I'll reply to a few of your points. It has been a while since I played the game though so I don't remember everything exactly.

edit: For clarity's sake I'll also add that I'm not really trying to change your mind here. I just wanted to share my views on it mostly.

I realise I might have just lost a lot of you there, but that's my unavoidable conclusion at this stage. Okay, maybe not terrible. But mediocre. Medicore at best. I have a boss battle paused right now for the 3rd time, and the first two I quit because I was just too bored and frustrated to continue. I've never found myself browsing Gaf during a game as much as this one, and eventually you have to admit to yourself that you just aren't enjoying playing the game at all, and are actively trying to avoid playing it. If you really desperately don't want to keep playing a game, isn't that a sign of a terrible game?
Not necessarily a sign of terrible game, but the game might not be for you after all.

Dunno, I found most of the boss battles quite interesting myself. All except the boss of Operation 002 actually. They all weren't easy certainly, but they weren't frustrating or boring to me.

1. The core gameplay / action
There are tons of problems here, tons, but the main one (and 90% of my problem with the game) is blindingly obvious from the off: It's impossible to see exactly where your group leader is and what he's doing. He's far too small on a screen filled with action to be sure of where he is in 3D space at any time, and the problem is doubled when he's in the air / jumping. The fact that he is surrounded by a group of 30-100 other tiny characters, a group that is of variable size and shape makes it impossible to pin down where your particular guy is half the time. When you get hit, you're never quite sure you'll be hit until you see your guy go flying.

I played MGR a lot this summer on PC, and I've honestly gotta say that personally I had a lot more troubles seeing everything going on than in TW101.

I don't know if you noticed, but the leader always has a ring underneath him or her. I can't remember if it was always red or did it change its color with the leader, but I personally found it rather easy to track when you just concentrate on that. I really don't want to make it sound like I'm sugarcoating my experience, but the heroes surrounding it and all the action going on is almost irrelevant to me when I'm focusing on it. But I don't know, maybe that's just me.

edit: And also as someone mentioned, the leader is always in the middle, except if you're dashing then he or she is in the front. Could help too.

Not only that, but there are far too many game systems layered on top of each other here. The worst is the battery system. This means that if you want to draw a new weapon, block or dodge, you need battery. In practice, this means that you will often find yourself running around an arena, unable to attack or defend until your battery recharges a sufficient amount. In a game with this much going on already, this isn't really acceptable, or necessary. How does this restriction on your core abilities make the game better?
If I recall correctly, there are multiple mechanics in the game to deal with the battery limit, for example increasing the battery size or restoring it with certain actions etc etc. Some of them you purchase from the shop, some of them you get by levelling up your characters (I think at least). At start, until you get some of those mechanics, I think you shouldn't have to have problems with the batteries. You might be spamming your moves too much possibly.

But this is a thing that I don't remember that much of anymore so can't say that much of it unfortunately. But I am completely sure that I didn't have any troubles with the batteries, except possibly in the hardest mode at times if I remember correctly.

The item system is tucked away on the gamepad and never explained. Good luck figuring out which of those un-named icons does what in the heat of battle! Good luck surviving for a single second if you take your eyes off the main screen! Good luck steering a missile (if you can figure out how to get them or what they're for) into one of your nimble opponents!
That I can agree with partly (though I actually never used any items I think).
I think though that it shows the item in the TV screen and the explanation on the Gamepad's screen. Not completely sure though.

Another huge mistake is making you have to collect your men every time you get hit. This leads to a constant loop of getting hit, collecting your men, getting hit, collecting your men, and so on. It's not fun. Surely the game designers expected players to get hit at least some of the time, right? Then why make such a frustrating ordeal out of it? Why make it so that you are so hamstrung when you only have half your team with you?
I dunno, most action games have some sort of downtime mechanics if you get hit I think. MGR has them multiple if you don't dodge or parry or just don't move.
In TW101 you lose your men if you get hit, but you can still continue the action even if it's with lesser fire power (I wouldn't say you're hamstrung though). It doesn't take that long for the heroes to regroup on you.

If you get hit all the time due to not being able to focus on your leader, then I can see how that'd be quite annoying of course. But since I didn't have problems focusing on the leader, I didn't get hit that much either.

When I did get hit, I actually found it kind of funny running around fast to get my heroes back. Just press Y fast and avoid enemies for a second. But again, I didn't get hit that much so my experience was very different.

What really bothers me about all of this is that in the non-campaign trial missions, where you tend to be in a simple, open, purple room, the core combat systems absolutely shine. Each weapon is distinct and feels fantastic, as tactile and fun as you'd expect from Platinum. Drawing them out is great. Getting an enemy stunned and tossing it in the air for a combo is just an awesome feeling. It's just a shame that in practice in real levels it seems impossible to use these systems consistently. An editor would have been great to just pare back the idea into only the best and more important ones. To strip out the ridiculous amount of different overlying systems you have to struggle with and leave just the best part of the game (the combat) intact.
I dunno. In the normal story levels you have to improvise more and use your arsenal in a more varied way I'd say. It can definitely be hard to pull off some things at every point, but in those you gotta use other ones.

I love the fact that the game wants to show you something new every five minutes. I love that, and my jaw has dropped multiple times as the street I was on caved away or I slingshotted onto the back of a jet plane or what have you. But it's not conducive to the implementation of the action at hand in the slightest. It doesn't go well with their core mechanics.
On this I'm honestly not sure what you mean and as such I can't agree with it at all.

It's a good thing that every now and then the game throws you around a little and gives a small break from the action.

A perfect example is the turtles. This is an enemy you've never seen before. You've just gotten a new weapon you will obviously need to use to destroy it. Drawing said weapon is tricky at first, trickier than the old ones, but manageable. Add all of this together and good game design would be one turtle on its own, so you get used to drawing the new weapon while you learn the attacks and weaknesses of the turtle.

But no. The game throws two turtles at you. So whenever you get close to one, the other one clips its neck through its friend, knocking you away and scattering your men. You then need to drawn the sickle again, draining your battery. Soon your battery is gone. On top of this, the general difficulties in judging depth due to the camera angles make for one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. It's obvious you need to block a turtle's 'stomp', flip the turtle over and kill it. But because of the difficulties in telling where you are, the fact that there are two large enemies in a small-ish space with long range attacks that can clip through one another means you simply spend 30 minutes being hit, being shocked that you just got hit considering where you were, gathering men, getting one or two small shots in and dying until you prevail.
That is an example I can agree with pretty much completely. Later you learn to deal with turtles quite effectively even (though that might really take some time), but the first time they're introduced isn't very good design in my opinion.

This describes one half of my experience with the Wonderful 101 perfectly. It just hasn't been a fun time at all. It's a slog, a tired zerg rush of getting hit and doing chip damage while wishing you could read the action better.
That's very unfortunate. Personally though, I wouldn't say there are many other such bad examples of enemy design. I think there is 1 or 2 other enemies that are pretty dumb and overly annoying, but that's it for me.

All of this is without mentioning the utterly terrible platforming parts. Guys, your game isn't Mario Galaxy. Stop with the platforming. Please. Stop.
That I agree with mostly. I don't they're utterly terrible though. I think they're actually kind of interesting most of the time, but the execution certainly fails as the depth is hard to see well in those sections.

3. The non-core gameplay systems / unlockables etc
So I've established that the game throws more at you than you can reasonably decipher, read or handle. But what's really frustrating is that it holds back a whole bunch of tools as unlockables that would make things easier on you. In other games this is acceptable - as the difficulty ramps up you gain access to new powers to keep things fair. Here, much of what is locked feels like essential stuff that should be part of the base gameplay.

In particular, things like the faster draw speed or ability to hold A to increase weapon size would have massively increased my enjoyment of the game so far. Putting the block and dodge behind the in-game paywall rather than in a tutorial as the base mechanics is just bizarre as well.
Well, the idea is to really make you see that the shop is important and I think that's a fine decision (though it could be argued that the shop doesn't really convey that unless you check it in the first place). But yes, maybe some of them could've been in the game ready.

I'll add the total lack of a functional tutorial in here as well. You've made a hardcore action game with a visual exterior that will obviously attract kids and other not-so-hardcore players. Would it actually kill you to teach these people how to play the game? The opening level is a nightmare of invisible walls, loose controls, bad explanations and horrible audio mix. The opening 30 minutes of a game are the most important. In their rush to impress people, Platinum absolutely butchered the opening of this game, and the repercussions are felt throughout the rest of the adventure.
That I agree with, except for the last sentence. I honestly had no trouble personally, but then again I tried out the demo before I got the game.

Platinum games in general could benefit a lot from a bit better tutorials.

4. The mini-games / genre switches
The game has a solid action system at its core. It's let down by the camera and other issues I've mentioned, but it's solid. Why then is the game so insistent on taking you way from the base action Platinum have worked so hard to craft only to put you into poorly designed, terribly explained out-of-genre sections? (What I mean by that is turret shooting sections, rail jumping sections, flying sections, basically broken hang-gliding sections etc).

This stuff feels like it comprises about a third of the game, and it's sadly uniformly garbage. Again, an editor would have been great here. "I love your passion, guys, but this does not make the game better and needs to be cut." They desperately needed someone to say this to them.
Partly agreed. It feels a bit like nobody was telling Kamiya to tone it down a little and he just went crazy with it.

I think some of them work quite well though and are actually genuinely interesting. Such as the part in which you're controlling the space ship from inside and have to fight some enemies there while seeing the TV screen and blowing stuff up there and avoiding damage.

In general I also like the idea that it uses different genres to mix up the gameplay, but it is used too often and some of them are pretty bad to be honest.

5. The tone / story
I won't go into this too much because this stuff is far more subjective than the rest and less interesting to debate but what starts as a fun, whimsical adventure becomes one-note and dull a couple of hours in. The female characters were what swayed me, their portrayal is borderline sexist at best, and more importantly just tiresome and cringeworthy. The jokes start to fall flat. I can only watch Blue punch Green after an off hand comment so many times before it loses its charm. I can only watch Pink act like a moronic valley girl so many times, you know?
Well, I haven't got much comments on that, but I did actually mostly like the story and I think it held well together.

Agreed on the female characters though.

Conclusion
I could go on, and I guess maybe I should leave some points for the replies. All I know is that I'm looking at the pause screen here as my guy has fallen off the edge of this platform while fighting a boss for the third time in a row, and I'm really thinking I'm done with this game. Maybe someone could tell me how far Operation 005 is from the end? Feels like I'm only halfway there.
Was that the first phase of the boss in the lava cave? To be completely honest, I'm not sure how you can fall down from that place. There's plenty of room and it's quite open so it's easy to see.

Sorry if I remember wrong. In general though I never fell down on any boss fights.

Anyway, it's a bit over halfway. If you can make it to the end, I'd still strongly recommend that.


inb4 "tldr: it was too hard" lol
Sadly, that didn't take very long.
 

AwShucks

Member
Jun 19, 2010
3,444
0
0
I'm watching these tutorial videos and I cannot wait to play this game when I get a Wii U. Similar to somebody else in the thread, I actually own the game already just not the system.
 

Riposte

Member
Sep 21, 2010
27,718
0
640
videogames?
twitter.com
I did have a lot of visibility issues, relative to similar games. In particularly, I really didn't like the Vorkken fights for a number of issues. It can be frustrating. But this becomes less of an issue when - surprise, surprise - you get better at the game. Frustration isn't always a bad thing, it's a natural (the most natural) reaction to being challenged.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Jun 7, 2004
21,120
0
0
Agree with a lot of the OP. Having finished most of MGR on Revengeance diff and clearing other Plat games on equally higher difficulties, I was ready to jump into W101 and feel capable to tackle the unique gameplay and control setup. Ended up shelving the game after a few missions instead and came away letdown by many of the same complaints.

I have watched the youtube walkthroughs and expert play vids and certainly see the potential, but the training to get accustomed to the analog manipulation and other little deficiencies mentioned brick-walling my trajectory felt a bit too absurd. I want to experience the zaniness, but the time and conditioning required just wasn't gelling with reality and I haven't touched it since the initial weekend I purchased so long ago.

It's been in the back of my mind and one day I'll properly reattempt, but that opportunity is dwindling and may not happen. I am not at all as convinced that the product is 'poor' or ill-conceived, but the uphill climb is a bit more onerous than I would care to bother with is all.

'Git gud' is kind of apt, but still should be a bannable offense against well reasoned critiques. Who doesn't dismiss that garbage response when it appears in this threads like this? Kudos to the few that actually have provided meaningful counterpoints though, never change.
 

MrBadger

Member
Dec 5, 2013
9,124
1
0
To be fair:

Some posts really don't try much to start a discussion. I do agree that the sentiment is to get better at it, but can certainly be argued in a much better way than that.

Okay, fair point. But those comments come off more as tongue in cheek jabs than defensiveness. There's plenty of proper discussion here as well.
 

danmaku

Member
Dec 9, 2008
5,854
0
0
Italy
I wonder why Platinum have this habit of locking away basic mechanics from the player. They did it multiple times, so it's not just a mistake. They do it on purpose, but god knows why. It doesn't make their games better, that's for sure.
 

Number_6

Member
Oct 29, 2013
1,432
0
0
First post nails it!

Seriously though, some of the complaints seem a bit odd.

There is a power meter so that you can learn to manage your power. It's just another wrinkle--dispatch with your enemies both gloriously and efficiently.

You lose your guys so that getting hit has a consequence. It happens even when the leader isn't hit. Learn the enemies tells and don't get hit. Then you'll get out of the loop you described.
 
Oct 3, 2011
14,332
0
0
1. The core gameplay / action
There are tons of problems here, tons, but the main one (and 90% of my problem with the game) is blindingly obvious from the off: It's impossible to see exactly where your group leader is and what he's doing. He's far too small on a screen filled with action to be sure of where he is in 3D space at any time, and the problem is doubled when he's in the air / jumping. The fact that he is surrounded by a group of 30-100 other tiny characters, a group that is of variable size and shape makes it impossible to pin down where your particular guy is half the time. When you get hit, you're never quite sure you'll be hit until you see your guy go flying.

First off, stop looking at your hero character as a single person surrounded by others. You need to look at your group as one mass. Make sure to hold Y to keep them all together. They move together, they attack together. Pretend it's just one large circular character with a tiny hitbox.

This is the core thing that makes the game a drag to play. I'm no expert at character action games, in fact I probably suck. But I made it through Bayonetta and MGS Rising without any problems or many deaths, and even tried a couple of levels on hard in those games and had tons of fun. Here, I get hit constantly. I don't feel like I can function correctly, I don't feel like I'm properly controlling the game. I initially thought that after a few levels the game would start to make sense. The mechanics themselves did, but my sense of my avatar's position never got better - in fact, as the levels became crazier and the camera angles shifted and more enemies filled the screen, it actually became harder and harder to tell where I was. Countless deaths and even ledge falls have been caused by this.

Don't know how to reply to this except to say get better, I guess. Proper dodging and blocking in an action game is something that's learned. Zoom the camera in and out to where you are comfortable and dodge/block when the enemy attacks. Keep your party close together and make your moves deliberately. Wonder-cyclone is a good skill to clear space around you when you are fighting the smallest enemies.

This is a different problem to other character action games. There, you feel overwhelmed by enemies' attacks: their patterns might be hard to read, they might be too fast, you might not be sure what move is the right one to use against them. This is the point of the genre. That is the challenge you're looking for. Here, the problem is that I can't read what's going on at least 50% of the time. I can figure out the enemy patterns and what I need to do, I'm just not sure exactly where I am relative to an enemy so I can 't do it. That's not the point of the genre, and it's not fun.

Again, the enemy patterns and behaviours are all just as simple to grasp as other action games. In fact, W101 might be easier in that sense since enemy attacks have huge startups and the block and dodge skills are near 100% invincible. You can also spam dodge/block giving you a huge window to not get hurt.

Not only that, but there are far too many game systems layered on top of each other here. The worst is the battery system. This means that if you want to draw a new weapon, block or dodge, you need battery. In practice, this means that you will often find yourself running around an arena, unable to attack or defend until your battery recharges a sufficient amount. In a game with this much going on already, this isn't really acceptable, or necessary. How does this restriction on your core abilities make the game better?

There are custom blocks to recharge your battery quickly as well as your max battery level growing through collecting the batteries scattered along the level. If you are running out of battery while fighting, change your tactics because you are doing it wrong. Sorry if that's blunt, but the battery system is such a weird complaint to make when it really doesn't affect you beyond the first level if you have figured out how to play.

The item system is tucked away on the gamepad and never explained. Good luck figuring out which of those un-named icons does what in the heat of battle! Good luck surviving for a single second if you take your eyes off the main screen! Good luck steering a missile (if you can figure out how to get them or what they're for) into one of your nimble opponents!

Don't worry about items. At all. You will collect dozens of random vegetables, soups, noodles, cakes, etc. throughout the game and honestly you really don't need to use any of them. The platinum coins, trophies and files are just your standard collectibles.

Another huge mistake is making you have to collect your men every time you get hit. This leads to a constant loop of getting hit, collecting your men, getting hit, collecting your men, and so on. It's not fun. Surely the game designers expected players to get hit at least some of the time, right? Then why make such a frustrating ordeal out of it? Why make it so that you are so hamstrung when you only have half your team with you?

You don't have to collect them, they will come back to you on their own after some time. Alternatively, you can drag the wonder liner over their bodies to get them back. Ideally however, just stop getting hit. What the hell do you expect when you get hit in an action game?

What really bothers me about all of this is that in the non-campaign trial missions, where you tend to be in a simple, open, purple room, the core combat systems absolutely shine. Each weapon is distinct and feels fantastic, as tactile and fun as you'd expect from Platinum. Drawing them out is great. Getting an enemy stunned and tossing it in the air for a combo is just an awesome feeling. It's just a shame that in practice in real levels it seems impossible to use these systems consistently. An editor would have been great to just pare back the idea into only the best and more important ones. To strip out the ridiculous amount of different overlying systems you have to struggle with and leave just the best part of the game (the combat) intact.

Yeah those rooms are a lot of fun and I wish there were more of them. They are skill-showcase rooms. They're designed for you to be able to show off and practice your fancy combos.

2. The encounter design
This game is best when it's at its simplest. When there's just an open, visually clean street filled with big and small enemies to move through and kill. The action is readable, containable and perfectly fun at these moments, yet still challenging. Drawing your weapons works perfectly, the action is smooth, combos feel good - all of that stuff works when the game is operating at a simple level. The problem is that this lasts for all of 5 minutes before the game decides that throwing hordes of enemies at you in rapidly destructing levels would be the best way to proceed.

I don't disagree with this point. It does get hectic, but that's the point. It's meant to challenge you and force you to be able to fight all kinds of different enemies in quick succession.

I love the fact that the game wants to show you something new every five minutes. I love that, and my jaw has dropped multiple times as the street I was on caved away or I slingshotted onto the back of a jet plane or what have you. But it's not conducive to the implementation of the action at hand in the slightest. It doesn't go well with their core mechanics.

Secondly, the way enemies are thrown at you is terrible. Single large enemies are difficult but can be fun. They have an extremely annoying habit of attacking right as you're finished drawing a weapon but you can manage them, because you only need to read them and you at the same time. But the game constantly throws more than you can handle at you, seemingly intentionally.

A perfect example is the turtles. This is an enemy you've never seen before. You've just gotten a new weapon you will obviously need to use to destroy it. Drawing said weapon is tricky at first, trickier than the old ones, but manageable. Add all of this together and good game design would be one turtle on its own, so you get used to drawing the new weapon while you learn the attacks and weaknesses of the turtle.

But no. The game throws two turtles at you. So whenever you get close to one, the other one clips its neck through its friend, knocking you away and scattering your men. You then need to drawn the sickle again, draining your battery. Soon your battery is gone. On top of this, the general difficulties in judging depth due to the camera angles make for one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. It's obvious you need to block a turtle's 'stomp', flip the turtle over and kill it. But because of the difficulties in telling where you are, the fact that there are two large enemies in a small-ish space with long range attacks that can clip through one another means you simply spend 30 minutes being hit, being shocked that you just got hit considering where you were, gathering men, getting one or two small shots in and dying until you prevail. This describes one half of my experience with the Wonderful 101 perfectly. It just hasn't been a fun time at all. It's a slog, a tired zerg rush of getting hit and doing chip damage while wishing you could read the action better.

Ok, this is just an issue with your playstyle. That specific boss is difficult, but it's a boss and that's how it should be. The fact that the turtle is so slow and it's moves have such long startups means that you should be able to easily weave in and around it. Multiplying that by two doesn't change the encounter more than just forcing you to move faster. Be deliberate with your movements and learn the timing of it's stomps. Learn how to do Wonder-Rising and when to ddoge if you see the other turtle getting ready to snap at you, or if the ground starts glowing.

And if you can't get in and out that quickly, there are different ways to take it down as well. The hammer at full strength will be able to brute force the battle in 2-3 hits per turtle.

All of this is without mentioning the utterly terrible platforming parts. Guys, your game isn't Mario Galaxy. Stop with the platforming. Please. Stop.

3. The non-core gameplay systems / unlockables etc
So I've established that the game throws more at you than you can reasonably decipher, read or handle. But what's really frustrating is that it holds back a whole bunch of tools as unlockables that would make things easier on you. In other games this is acceptable - as the difficulty ramps up you gain access to new powers to keep things fair. Here, much of what is locked feels like essential stuff that should be part of the base gameplay.

In particular, things like the faster draw speed or ability to hold A to increase weapon size would have massively increased my enjoyment of the game so far. Putting the block and dodge behind the in-game paywall rather than in a tutorial as the base mechanics is just bizarre as well.

The shop system is the single most integral thing to this game and apart from the game screaming in your face "USE THE SHOP," it does everything to demonstrate how important it is. Every mission ends at a Wonder-Mart. Every enemy explodes into massive amounts of the in-game currency. Everything in the game leads you towards the shop menu. If you can't be bothered to go into it and see what it has, then tough luck. It's like playing an RPG and ignoring weapon shops while complaining about how weak your sword is. The game literally funnels you to the shop as often as possible.

I'll add the total lack of a functional tutorial in here as well. You've made a hardcore action game with a visual exterior that will obviously attract kids and other not-so-hardcore players. Would it actually kill you to teach these people how to play the game? The opening level is a nightmare of invisible walls, loose controls, bad explanations and horrible audio mix. The opening 30 minutes of a game are the most important. In their rush to impress people, Platinum absolutely butchered the opening of this game, and the repercussions are felt throughout the rest of the adventure.

Disagree with you here. I had no problem getting my mind around the game's combat system. It does have a sparse tutorial, but it's an incredibly forgiving game that emphasizes experimentation and trial and error over heavy-handed guiding. Even when you die on a boss-fight, you start back with full health and the boss's health is where you last left it.

4. The mini-games / genre switches
The game has a solid action system at its core. It's let down by the camera and other issues I've mentioned, but it's solid. Why then is the game so insistent on taking you way from the base action Platinum have worked so hard to craft only to put you into poorly designed, terribly explained out-of-genre sections? (What I mean by that is turret shooting sections, rail jumping sections, flying sections, basically broken hang-gliding sections etc).

This stuff feels like it comprises about a third of the game, and it's sadly uniformly garbage. Again, an editor would have been great here. "I love your passion, guys, but this does not make the game better and needs to be cut." They desperately needed someone to say this to them.

I guess that's subjective, but I very much enjoyed all the genre-switching. All the minigames were fresh and felt like exciting diversions. It's an eclectic mix of everything and you don't need to like all of them.

5. The tone / story
I won't go into this too much because this stuff is far more subjective than the rest and less interesting to debate but what starts as a fun, whimsical adventure becomes one-note and dull a couple of hours in. The female characters were what swayed me, their portrayal is borderline sexist at best, and more importantly just tiresome and cringeworthy. The jokes start to fall flat. I can only watch Blue punch Green after an off hand comment so many times before it loses its charm. I can only watch Pink act like a moronic valley girl so many times, you know?

Conclusion
I could go on, and I guess maybe I should leave some points for the replies. All I know is that I'm looking at the pause screen here as my guy has fallen off the edge of this platform while fighting a boss for the third time in a row, and I'm really thinking I'm done with this game. Maybe someone could tell me how far Operation 005 is from the end? Feels like I'm only halfway there.

Roll on Bayonetta 2, and mark this one down as a beautiful failed experiment. God bless you Platinum, it was an incredible idea, and you went for it with everything you had. It just didn't come off properly. I won't hold it against you.

inb4 "tldr: it was too hard" lol

Well, if you aren't enjoying it, you should stop playing. Operation 005 is about halfway through the game and it only gets harder from here. Take the other posts in this thread to heart and retry it with all the advice in mind. And explore the shop menu.

I'll be honest, this is my absolute favourite game ever. I am simply not seeing the same issues that others do, but I do think a lot of people have issues due to not being able to look at the game as an entirely new and unique genre and trying to fit it into their exiting genre conventions.
 

ajjow

Member
Dec 20, 2012
556
0
0
Actually, despite the size of the units, my only problem with the game are the glitchs.

There are a lot of moments that you do the right drawing and it doenst get it. with bosses this is terrible.

Everytime I had to do some bridge or fill a room with my soldiers the game just didnt get it. In my opinion, it was rushed.

A lot of potential in here, but we will never see a new game in this franchise.


I would give it a 6,5. Theses glitches are terrible. But I didnt find the game hard. I played it on normal since the beggining and my complains are not about dying, but with getting bronze trophies.
 

Tookay

Member
Oct 26, 2011
9,987
0
0
Seriously, git gud.

Too hard? Play better.

Game wasn't perfect, but it's still really good.

TW101 maingame is easy shit

get better

git gud bro

First post fucking nails it again. What is it with NeoGAF and first posts?

Nah, game's great. You're just bad at it.

First post and all.

The fact that posters think the best response to a long and well-reasoned OP is a drive-by one-liner is rather troubling.
 

ForsakenLotus

Member
Jun 28, 2014
3,244
1
0
Unfortunately there will be a contingent of defenders who say you aren't skilled enough and that when you stop sucking the game will be great. But honestly, I think that's a huge cop-out. I don't want to master frustrating game before I can even start to enjoy it. Just like Kid Icarus and Monster Hunter on PSP, I don't want to have to master some super awkward grip where my hand cramps just so that I can enjoy the game.

Sometimes good ideas and mechanics are built on top of poor design. W101 has some great ideas and is pretty unique, but let's not pretend it doesn't have some fundamental flaws just because it's a Kamiya/Platinum game.
 

Vermillion

Banned
Mar 13, 2011
21,209
0
0
You guys treat the game like it's a religion, damn.

Anyways, OP, the game is pretty obtuse - I had to figure out a lot of shit on my own, but it gets fun if you put in the time. I don't think that's great design, but there you go.

I kind of agree with you on the non-core parts... the part where you
control two ships with the two sticks
is probably the worst part of the game, IMO.
Unite Boomerang through the laser grid
was also pretty annoying, but it gets hype points for the cutscene before hand.
 

K-A-Deman

Member
Apr 30, 2014
1,107
0
0
Ugh I honestly hated those. Way to make me lose all hype for a boss.

Like why does this game seem to just ignore its battle system so much? And for fucking boss battles of all things? I wouldn't mind it if the Punch-Out sections were just minibosses, but no they're actual bosses.

All boss fights had sections involving traditional gameplay, I fail to see how you think this game ignored it's battle system just because it took a few minutes to present a new gameplay scenario.

And then the loading screens...lol...I feel truly sorry for those who decided to replay this game and go for Pure Platinum.

You need to have 100 people and then you will have to keep trying to get 100 people in it. The last person will sometimes be an idiot and not go in properly.

Loading times are far from the worst thing (I'm playing Lego City Undercover right now; those loading screens are BAD, but they have catchy music). And yeah, build takes some getting used to, but once you figure out the tricks, it makes any section of it a breeze (Yes, even the eyeball.)

I've had little trouble adapting to and playing through many notoriously difficult games but the type of challenge here is not fun to learn. In the best "difficult" games you want to keep pushing forward and learning the game but here it just feels frustrating and rage inducing. Getting good requires a ton of patience and the way it punishes you is not fun. I'm just not compatible with this type of challenge, I guess. Other Platinum games are my kind of challenge but not this one.

How does this game differ from any other Platinum game? I'm genuinely curious, since I hear this all the time but when I actually watch people play (both real and online), I never hear this complaint from veteran Platinum fans. Maybe I'm relying on too small of a pool here, but I a honestly confused how people see a difference.


If they simply eliminated the fact that your guys are scattered upon taking a hit I think it would be infinitely more fun to learn.

I disagree. The scattering exists as a punishment for getting hit, and until you get to high tier-attacks from bosses or late-game enemies, the fact that the ones that get scattered were in the Unite Morph you made is a reminder that your power comes at a cost. you go big, you fail big.
 

Riposte

Member
Sep 21, 2010
27,718
0
640
videogames?
twitter.com
Unfortunately there will be a contingent of defenders who say you aren't skilled enough and that when you stop sucking the game will be great. But honestly, I think that's a huge cop-out. I don't want to master frustrating game before I can even start to enjoy it. Just like Kid Icarus and Monster Hunter on PSP, I don't want to have to master some super awkward grip where my hand cramps just so that I can enjoy the game.

Sometimes good ideas and mechanics are built on top of poor design. W101 has some great ideas and is pretty unique, but let's not pretend it doesn't have some fundamental flaws just because it's a Kamiya/Platinum game.

You don't have to master it, just learn it. The fact you can play any game more complicated than Pong came from the fact you spent time learning. Go watch someone who doesn't know how to use dual analog sticks try to play Halo.

No one is pretending it doesn't have fundamental flaws, they don't believe it does. Maybe it has some flaws, but not fundamental ones. Requiring a player to learn a new style of game is not a fundamental flaw. (Learning how to play a game and learning how to be good at a game are the same thing, extensions of each other.)


Why "git gud" is a decent point, although probably poorly/rudely expressed:

-If you are not good at something it is likely because you don't understand it. Now imagine someone who doesn't understand the game trying to get their point across to those who do? Those who can see farther see both where that person's sight stops and beyond. Being able to notice this cuts through any argument. Writing a lot of words doesn't spare you from that.

-If you are bad at something, you become frustrated and channel your negative feelings towards the game. Anger is intoxicating. This completely colors your impression of a game and, when it comes down to it, is a practice of distributing blame away from yourself. Once again, what do you think someone who either isn't frustrated or can withstand their frustration see? (Frustration is feeling/being made aware how weak you are.)
 

doctorblurg

Banned
Dec 3, 2013
2,775
0
0
Denton, Texas
This was definitely the hardest platinum game for me to beat mostly because I wouldn't try and adapt my playstyle. Ill totally agree that the unite guts and spring had no reason to be hidden away in the move shop. I still loved the game despite how much I sucked at it and I think the reason why was at around the last two missions everything really started to click for me. The game takes time and you have to be willing to either keep getting pummeled or learn how to play, even with playing previous character action games this one was the most difficult to get a grasp on its mechanics.
 
Oct 11, 2007
32,783
545
1,290
I understand your gripe about not being able to see. I couldn't see shit when I first started playing. I'd look at the screen and it was like watching a destroyed ant mound. Takes a little time to adjust properly, but eventually you see everything like you are in the matrix. It also made going back to some games incredibly sterile for a time lol
 

Coffee Dog

Banned
Aug 23, 2012
14,437
1
0
You don't have to master it, just learn it. The fact you can play any game more complicated than Pong came from the fact you spent time learning. Go watch someone who doesn't know how to use dual analog sticks try to play Halo.

No one is pretending it doesn't have fundamental flaws, they don't believe it does. Maybe it has some flaws, but not fundamental ones. Requiring a player to learn a new style of game is not a fundamental flaw. (Learning how to play a game and learning how to be good at a game are the same thing, extensions of each other.)


Why "git gud" is a decent point, although probably poorly/rudely expressed:

-If you are not good at something it is likely because you don't understand it. Now imagine someone who doesn't understand the game trying to get their point across to those who do? Those who can see farther see both where that person's sight stops and beyond. Being able to notice this cuts through any argument. Writing a lot of words doesn't spare you from that.

-If you are bad at something, you become frustrated and channel your negative feelings towards the game. Anger is intoxicating. This completely colors your impression of a game and, when it comes down to it, is a practice of distributing blame away from yourself. Once again, what do you think someone who either isn't frustrated or can withstand their frustration see? (Frustration is feeling/being made aware how weak you are.)

Well said.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 14, 2010
66,821
1
0
Beaumont, TX
www.neogaf.com
Big post, but not a lot of content, sadly

There are tons of problems here, tons, but the main one (and 90% of my problem with the game) is blindingly obvious from the off: It's impossible to see exactly where your group leader is and what he's doing.

I mean right off the bat, this is just...wrong. Like, I don't mean to be rude here, but this is flat-out incorrect. Its actually quite plausible to see where your leader is and know where your position is. That's why there's a glowing circle underneath, that's why the weapon of your choice is always over his head, that's why when you're running you're always at the front and the crowd funnels away from you. Even when jumping in chaotic scenes, the bright circle under your leader will tell you where he's gonna land.

Not only that, but there are far too many game systems layered on top of each other here. The worst is the battery system. This means that if you want to draw a new weapon, block or dodge, you need battery. In practice, this means that you will often find yourself running around an arena, unable to attack or defend until your battery recharges a sufficient amount. In a game with this much going on already, this isn't really acceptable, or necessary. How does this restriction on your core abilities make the game better?

Have you ever played the game Viewtiful Joe? In Viewtiful Joe, you collect film canisters scattered around the level to increase your default special meter, which in turn allows you to use fancier moves for longer duration of time. If there wasn't a restriction, you can just use the powers all the time, non-stop, without any strategic thought whatsoever. What this system does is A) it gives you collectibles that you always want to pick up and B) forces use to intelligently use your superpowers. Playing Wonderful 101 is like managing a business; you have to be mindful of all your employees, be wary of competitors on the field, careful not to waste your allotted budget on frivolous expenses. Its a lot to keep up with, but hey, that's why they aren't a lot of business managers! Be when you understand how it works and have all the systems working in harmony with each other, its quite satisfying.

Another huge mistake is making you have to collect your men every time you get hit. This leads to a constant loop of getting hit, collecting your men, getting hit, collecting your men, and so on. It's not fun. Surely the game designers expected players to get hit at least some of the time, right? Then why make such a frustrating ordeal out of it? Why make it so that you are so hamstrung when you only have half your team with you?

Its a unique form of punishment for getting hit, appropriate to a game about collecting a 101 heroes. You performed poorly, a poor thing has happen to you, do better. Don't get hit so often. Take a second to learn the enemy's moves, their patterns, test out your abilities, experiment with those various systems.

This game is best when it's at its simplest. When there's just an open, visually clean street filled with big and small enemies to move through and kill. The action is readable, containable and perfectly fun at these moments, yet still challenging. Drawing your weapons works perfectly, the action is smooth, combos feel good - all of that stuff works when the game is operating at a simple level. The problem is that this lasts for all of 5 minutes before the game decides that throwing hordes of enemies at you in rapidly destructing levels would be the best way to proceed.

I love the fact that the game wants to show you something new every five minutes. I love that, and my jaw has dropped multiple times as the street I was on caved away or I slingshotted onto the back of a jet plane or what have you. But it's not conducive to the implementation of the action at hand in the slightest. It doesn't go well with their core mechanics.

Another comment where I'm not sure what to debate here. You say "it doesn't go well with the core mechanics", and well...I disagree? I think they work just fine? I enjoy them quite well? I've rarely had any issues with adapting to their various situations? I've practiced, paid attention, read guides online, watched videos, applied learned strategies and ideas to the challenges the developers threw at me and succeeded in a satisfactory manner?

I know you tried to dispel the "git gud" comments at the end there, but a lot of this boiled down to "I'm not good at game, therefore game is bad ;_;". I don't think the game is the one with the issue here. I'm not gonna bother quoting the turtles thing, which was a distinct challenge at first, but with practice and patience, knowledge and execution, become easy. Like everything else in life.

3. The non-core gameplay systems / unlockables etc
So I've established that the game throws more at you than you can reasonably decipher, read or handle. But what's really frustrating is that it holds back a whole bunch of tools as unlockables that would make things easier on you. In other games this is acceptable - as the difficulty ramps up you gain access to new powers to keep things fair. Here, much of what is locked feels like essential stuff that should be part of the base gameplay.

In particular, things like the faster draw speed or ability to hold A to increase weapon size would have massively increased my enjoyment of the game so far. Putting the block and dodge behind the in-game paywall rather than in a tutorial as the base mechanics is just bizarre as well.

I'll add the total lack of a functional tutorial in here as well. You've made a hardcore action game with a visual exterior that will obviously attract kids and other not-so-hardcore players. Would it actually kill you to teach these people how to play the game? The opening level is a nightmare of invisible walls, loose controls, bad explanations and horrible audio mix. The opening 30 minutes of a game are the most important. In their rush to impress people, Platinum absolutely butchered the opening of this game, and the repercussions are felt throughout the rest of the adventure.

I find that learning to do WITHOUT things like the hold A button for weapon size makes you more appreciative when you do get it, and when to use it. I mean, you're already crying about too many systems layered on top of each other, now you want more right from the start?

Its an alternative way of increasing weapon size, and not always preferential. When you draw an item yourself, you can dictate the size, the amount of people, time stops. When you're holding A, you're stuck holding that button while the enemy does his thing and your weapon slowly-but-steadily builds up.

As for the block and dodge being in the shop, that is a bit bizarre, but you can easily buy it right after the prologue with the money you get there and have it for chapter 1, so its not a HUGE issue really.

I agree, the opening 30 minutes should do a better job teaching things, but it still starts off slow enough, and pretty basic compared to later encounters.

4. The mini-games / genre switches
The game has a solid action system at its core. It's let down by the camera and other issues I've mentioned, but it's solid. Why then is the game so insistent on taking you way from the base action Platinum have worked so hard to craft only to put you into poorly designed, terribly explained out-of-genre sections? (What I mean by that is turret shooting sections, rail jumping sections, flying sections, basically broken hang-gliding sections etc).

This stuff feels like it comprises about a third of the game, and it's sadly uniformly garbage. Again, an editor would have been great here. "I love your passion, guys, but this does not make the game better and needs to be cut." They desperately needed someone to say this to them.

Well, this is pretty subjective, but for the most part, I'm a fan of the variety.

One of my main complaints of these 8+ hour action games like Ninja Gaiden 2 or God Hand is how there isn't much variety of terms of pacing. You walk forward, there's a wave of guys, you beat them and then there's another wave, and then another wave, and then another wave, and then another wave. And all those waves there's a boss(who often has his own wave of enemies), then you do it again the next level over and over again for a dozen hours.

Now you say "well, its a beat'em'up, what do you expect!?", but old school beat'em'ups were built around relatively short playthroughs, 30mins-1 hour. Playing God Hand is like playing a reallllllly long game of Final Fight. Yeah, its got a great combat system, but when it looks terrible, no story to give it any kind of motivation, music that doesn't seem to care about anything, and a pacing that's rarely changes(especially with the adaptable difficulty slider), it becomes monotonous.

With Kamiya action games like Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta, and Wonderful 101, he's always mindful of packing his games with variety. You'll get some great battles, sure, but they're broken up with a puzzle, or an interesting platforming/traversal section, or some funny cutscene, or a shmup level, or a new weapon, or a big boss fight, just every few minutes. He breaks encounters down into those individuals verses, crafting each level to have various peaks and valleys. Yeah, sometimes he goes overboard like that fuckin' Space Harrier level in Bayonetta or one too many turret sections here, but for the most part, I'm all for it.

--

and then there was the story, which I thought was pretty charming overall with a surprisingly good voice cast and localization, but yeah Wonder-Pink is awful and Annoying Kid Character is terrible. More good than bad, though.

But really, a big bulk of this post really sounds like the mom who plays Street Fighter 4 and its really mad because she can't do combos, why didn't this game teach me about match-ups, how do you do that, this is terrible.

Wonderful 101 is a different experience even from other P* action games(already a niche genre), and its not gonna be for everyone. But its not the game fault that you're not good at it, and despite how much you keep saying "I know the basics", if you can't even tell where you are or why the battery system is the way it is, you very clearly do not know the basics.

You don't have to like the game, but at least be honest that most of the defiances are coming from your end of the deal here.
 

Neff

Member
Feb 6, 2012
12,737
1,632
1,080
UK
With Kamiya action games like Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta, and Wonderful 101, he's always mindful of packing his games with variety. You'll get some great battles, sure, but they're broken up with a puzzle, or an interesting platforming/traversal section, or some funny cutscene, or a shmup level, or a new weapon, or a big boss fight, just every few minutes. He breaks encounters down into those individuals verses, crafting each level to have various peaks and valleys. Yeah, sometimes he goes overboard like that fuckin' Space Harrier level in Bayonetta or one too many turret sections here, but for the most part, I'm all for it.

Best part of a great post.
 

LocalE

Member
Jul 12, 2013
611
7
470
If you really desperately don't want to keep playing a game, isn't that a sign of a terrible game?

No, it's a sign that you don't enjoy playing the game.

If every game was objectively terrible just because you personally don't enjoy it, where would that put us, really? Would other people stop enjoying those games just because you convinced them, somehow, that your opinion was the only information needed to determine the quality of a game?

I guess my point is just that your enjoyment of a game is not necessarily related, in any way, to the actual quality of the game.

It's ok to just, you know, not enjoy it. There's no rule that you have to enjoy every game that isn't terrible.
 

Griss

Member
Sep 26, 2013
11,685
13
515
Dublin, Ireland
Okay, checking back in. Thanks to all who took the time to read the OP and reply. Obviously the game inspires strong emotions and I can see why: as I said it's clearly a labour of love, and clearly has tons of depth for expert players.

I would make the light-hearted point to those criticising me that I'm not the enemy - I actually buy every Platinum game! How many of us are out there? Not many! So I reckon I have the Platinum fan credit to go after them a little bit - as I said there are tons of things I love and respect about the W101.

One thing I noticed about the thread (other than the sadly guaranteed 'git good' responses) was that I felt a lot of people were missing or misreading my central point. I tried to make it clearer than clear that I understood the game mechanics and liked them, and that my main issue was 100% understanding where my character was in 3D space. Yet so many posts tried to explain how the mechanics worked, and ignored my camera / 3D space issue.

Being a tiny little guy running around with loose movement controls from an isometric viewpoint and finding it hard to know exactly where you are is a huge issue of mine in the game. I feel like that went misunderstood for a lot of people. I also feel like a lot of people simply didn't have this problem or they'd be picking up on it. It's the same reason I didn't like LittleBigPlanet, the same reason I think Super Mario 3D World is the weakest 3D Mario. This may be something I'm uniquely bad at or sensitive to. But I don't feel like it has anything to do with 'learning the game'. I felt the level design significantly exacerbated this problem that the core game design introduced, and it really makes the game a chore for me.

Also, as for getting your men scattered - I understand perfectly that it's punishment for getting hit, I merely think that it's far less fun than the punishment found in other action games. I think that's a fair opinion. In a game where you clearly have to experiment as nothing is told to you directly the fact that getting punished is so annoying and disheartening is a huge issue. People are saying 'figure things out yourself!' and at the same time 'don't get hit!' Those two things don't sync up when you're learning a game and forced to experiment.

I might try to go through and pick out a couple of replies now, I did read them all.
 

Tookay

Member
Oct 26, 2011
9,987
0
0
Why "git gud" is a decent point, although probably poorly/rudely expressed:

-If you are not good at something it is likely because you don't understand it. Now imagine someone who doesn't understand the game trying to get their point across to those who do? Those who can see farther see both where that person's sight stops and beyond. Being able to notice this cuts through any argument. Writing a lot of words doesn't spare you from that.

-If you are bad at something, you become frustrated and channel your negative feelings towards the game. Anger is intoxicating. This completely colors your impression of a game and, when it comes down to it, is a practice of distributing blame away from yourself. Once again, what do you think someone who either isn't frustrated or can withstand their frustration see? (Frustration is feeling/being made aware how weak you are.)
If those "git gud" posts were accompanied by something this articulate, it'd be one thing.

They weren't though.
 

Griss

Member
Sep 26, 2013
11,685
13
515
Dublin, Ireland
No, it's a sign that you don't enjoy playing the game.

If every game was objectively terrible just because you personally don't enjoy it, where would that put us, really? Would other people stop enjoying those games just because you convinced them, somehow, that your opinion was the only information needed to determine the quality of a game?

I guess my point is just that your enjoyment of a game is not necessarily related, in any way, to the actual quality of the game.

It's ok to just, you know, not enjoy it. There's no rule that you have to enjoy every game that isn't terrible.

Let's be clear, I would never argue that any functional game is objectively terrible. When I say it's terrible, I mean I personally find it subjectively terrible. This is implicit in opinions. Then we all give our opinion, and we come to a group idea of whether the game is subjectively good or bad. Seems like Gaf thinks it's pretty good. (I already knew that.)

None of that means I shouldn't give my opinion on what I feel like the game does poorly that affects my enjoyment. The subjectivity of criticism shouldn't need to be explained.
 

wigwag85

Banned
Jul 30, 2014
259
0
0
Okay, checking back in. Thanks to all who took the time to read the OP and reply. Obviously the game inspires strong emotions and I can see why: as I said it's clearly a labour of love, and clearly has tons of depth for expert players.

I would make the light-hearted point to those criticising me that I'm not the enemy - I actually buy every Platinum game! How many of us are out there? Not many! So I reckon I have the Platinum fan credit to go after them a little bit - as I said there are tons of things I love and respect about the W101.

One thing I noticed about the thread (other than the sadly guaranteed 'git good' responses) was that I felt a lot of people were missing or misreading my central point. I tried to make it clearer than clear that I understood the game mechanics and liked them, and that my main issue was 100% understanding where my character was in 3D space. Yet so many posts tried to explain how the mechanics worked, and ignored my camera / 3D space issue.

Being a tiny little guy running around with loose movement controls from an isometric viewpoint and finding it hard to know exactly where you are is a huge issue of mine in the game. I feel like that went misunderstood for a lot of people. I also feel like a lot of people simply didn't have this problem or they'd be picking up on it. It's the same reason I didn't like LittleBigPlanet, the same reason I think Super Mario 3D World is the weakest 3D Mario. This may be something I'm uniquely bad at or sensitive to. But I don't feel like it has anything to do with 'learning the game'. I felt the level design significantly exacerbated this problem that the core game design introduced, and it really makes the game a chore for me.

Are you playing far away from the TV or have a small screen? You might want to get your eyes checked. I've played those games and never had a problem seeing my character. My vision isn't the greatest either.
 

Razzorn34

Member
Mar 19, 2014
1,708
49
375
I thought I was just getting lucky when it finally clicked. Good to see there was some rhyme or reason for it. But, I understand that people want to be told this type of information.

But still, I rather have some cryptic gameplay with hidden depth than have everything explained to me. This game reminds me of NES Mega Man games where you'd get to a boss fight and your main weapon, plus your entire inventory was almost useless against him, and you'd have to use trial an error to figure out the right order to tackle the game. You'd then need to replay the entire level after getting a new weapon and it may still not work.

It harkens back to a time where this was how games were designed:



If you arrive at this point without the right stuff, it was a game over.

Similar stuff is happening in W101. Without experimentation, you'll never know how to quickly take out enemies like the turtles. But it's totally possible to beat even those guys well within 1 or 2 minutes when you figure everything out. We really need more old school games like this.

P.S. W101 is better than Bayonetta and Viewtiful Joe. It's Kamiya's best game. The only better Platinum game is Vanquish in my opinion.

This is how I saw it. But, I'm from the generation where you weren't told everything right out of the gate, even with instructions. Figuring out advanced mechanics on your own was part of the game. Renting tons of NES/SNES games with no instructions back in the day made me an expert at that. The current day trend of frontload information and handholding, kills a lot of that discovery.
 

FlashbladeGAF

Member
Sep 11, 2006
8,572
2
905
Okay, checking back in. Thanks to all who took the time to read the OP and reply. Obviously the game inspires strong emotions and I can see why: as I said it's clearly a labour of love, and clearly has tons of depth for expert players.

I would make the light-hearted point to those criticising me that I'm not the enemy - I actually buy every Platinum game! How many of us are out there? Not many! So I reckon I have the Platinum fan credit to go after them a little bit - as I said there are tons of things I love and respect about the W101.

One thing I noticed about the thread (other than the sadly guaranteed 'git good' responses) was that I felt a lot of people were missing or misreading my central point. I tried to make it clearer than clear that I understood the game mechanics and liked them, and that my main issue was 100% understanding where my character was in 3D space. Yet so many posts tried to explain how the mechanics worked, and ignored my camera / 3D space issue.

Being a tiny little guy running around with loose movement controls from an isometric viewpoint and finding it hard to know exactly where you are is a huge issue of mine in the game. I feel like that went misunderstood for a lot of people. I also feel like a lot of people simply didn't have this problem or they'd be picking up on it. It's the same reason I didn't like LittleBigPlanet, the same reason I think Super Mario 3D World is the weakest 3D Mario. This may be something I'm uniquely bad at or sensitive to. But I don't feel like it has anything to do with 'learning the game'. I felt the level design significantly exacerbated this problem that the core game design introduced, and it really makes the game a chore for me.

Also, as for getting your men scattered - I understand perfectly that it's punishment for getting hit, I merely think that it's far less fun than the punishment found in other action games. I think that's a fair opinion. In a game where you clearly have to experiment as nothing is told to you directly the fact that getting punished is so annoying and disheartening is a huge issue. People are saying 'figure things out yourself!' and at the same time 'don't get hit!' Those two things don't sync up when you're learning a game and forced to experiment.

I might try to go through and pick out a couple of replies now, I did read them all.


Unless your in a section that focuses on one player or requires jumping, your whole unit should be moving as one. Whether it's attacking, dodging, or running. 80 percent of the time your main character, along with everyone else, should be in a unite morph.

Unlike other character action games, its not about how cool the main character's attack looks. Its about the mass destruction you can unleash on your foes as a superhero group.

 

Griss

Member
Sep 26, 2013
11,685
13
515
Dublin, Ireland
Another point I'll answer: Tons of people like W101 for letting them discover stuff on their own.

My take on this: I love not being told stuff so long as it doesn't have to do with core mechanics. I feel like the basics of the game should be clearly explained. Or, I suppose not 'should be', but I prefer them to be. Figuring out core mechanics is not good game design to me.

Maybe it is to you. In that case, congrats, I guess this game is right down your alley. And that's fine, and people should be able to make and like whatever games they want. I'd suspect there are more people like me out there, though, and that there are plenty more people who might have enjoyed this game if it was more accessible. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want your game to have options that make it more accessible.

Then again, I'm on the wrong side of this argument in the 'save anywhere' wars (I don't think you should be able to) so I totally get your frustration at the attempted casualisation of a rare game that caters to your tastes.
 

Razzorn34

Member
Mar 19, 2014
1,708
49
375
Also, as for getting your men scattered - I understand perfectly that it's punishment for getting hit, I merely think that it's far less fun than the punishment found in other action games. I think that's a fair opinion. In a game where you clearly have to experiment as nothing is told to you directly the fact that getting punished is so annoying and disheartening is a huge issue. People are saying 'figure things out yourself!' and at the same time 'don't get hit!' Those two things don't sync up when you're learning a game and forced to experiment.

It sounds like a tall order, but man, this is how games used to be. It's like playing Demon's/Dark Souls, or pretty much boss fights in any game. When you approach something new, focusing on avoiding attacks, and learning what the enemy does is key. It really is just basic game skills.
 

Fimbulvetr

Member
Feb 12, 2009
18,039
0
800
Brooklyn, NY
It's impossible to see exactly where your group leader is and what he's doing. He's far too small on a screen filled with action to be sure of where he is in 3D space at any time, and the problem is doubled when he's in the air / jumping. The fact that he is surrounded by a group of 30-100 other tiny characters, a group that is of variable size and shape makes it impossible to pin down where your particular guy is half the time. When you get hit, you're never quite sure you'll be hit until you see your guy go flying.
The isometric camera always follows the leader's movements, the leader has a ring around them labeled "leader", in default formation the leader is always in front of the group(the leader also responds to directional input immediately vs the rest of the team), in tight formation(holding the L or Dash buttons) the leader is always in the center of the group,.

Not only that, but there are far too many game systems layered on top of each other here. The worst is the battery system. This means that if you want to draw a new weapon, block or dodge, you need battery. In practice, this means that you will often find yourself running around an arena, unable to attack or defend until your battery recharges a sufficient amount.
You can still use Team Attack without battery power, Battery power isn't necessary to create a morph you're already using, doing damage increases battery regen, there's an Custom Block that increases battery regen.

In a game with this much going on already, this isn't really acceptable, or necessary. How does this restriction on your core abilities make the game better?
It's there to stop the player from spamming shit and put more thought into what they're doing.

The item system is tucked away on the gamepad and never explained. Good luck figuring out which of those un-named icons does what in the heat of battle! Good luck surviving for a single second if you take your eyes off the main screen! Good luck steering a missile (if you can figure out how to get them or what they're for) into one of your nimble opponents!
You aren't supposed to want to use items in the first place, but yeah that's not very intuitive.

Another huge mistake is making you have to collect your men every time you get hit. This leads to a constant loop of getting hit, collecting your men, getting hit, collecting your men, and so on. It's not fun. Surely the game designers expected players to get hit at least some of the time, right? Then why make such a frustrating ordeal out of it? Why make it so that you are so hamstrung when you only have half your team with you?
If you suck at collecting your team without getting hit, you could just go on the defensive and wait a few seconds for them to recover on their own.

On top of this, the general difficulties in judging depth due to the camera angles make for one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. It's obvious you need to block a turtle's 'stomp', flip the turtle over and kill it. But because of the difficulties in telling where you are, the fact that there are two large enemies in a small-ish space with long range attacks that can clip through one another means you simply spend 30 minutes being hit, being shocked that you just got hit considering where you were, gathering men, getting one or two small shots in and dying until you prevail. This describes one half of my experience with the Wonderful 101 perfectly. It just hasn't been a fun time at all. It's a slog, a tired zerg rush of getting hit and doing chip damage while wishing you could read the action better.
You might have problems with depth perception. Also, 30 minutes? Jeez.

All of this is without mentioning the utterly terrible platforming parts. Guys, your game isn't Mario Galaxy. Stop with the platforming. Please. Stop.
Eh. I thought they were just average, but whatever.

So I've established that the game throws more at you than you can reasonably decipher, read or handle. But what's really frustrating is that it holds back a whole bunch of tools as unlockables that would make things easier on you. In other games this is acceptable - as the difficulty ramps up you gain access to new powers to keep things fair. Here, much of what is locked feels like essential stuff that should be part of the base gameplay.
Outside of Spring and Guts(which are the cheapest things in the store anyway), I'm not sure what this could be referring to.

I'll add the total lack of a functional tutorial in here as well.
This is a fair criticism.

You've made a hardcore action game with a visual exterior that will obviously attract kids and other not-so-hardcore players.
This only makes sense if you assume that this game was made for those people.
 

FlashbladeGAF

Member
Sep 11, 2006
8,572
2
905
you really should see them as one giant blob, instead of individuals



It's not 74 heroes dodging this laser. It's 1 unit dodging the laser

The basic mechanics are taught to you, but since it's such a new way of interacting, and they throw you in the middle of it, it takes awhile to finally grasp all it has to offer.

Trial by Fire.
I think the low points/stone medals at the end of each chapter make it feel worse than it actually is.
You're learning the best you can under the intense pressure, but at the same time you don't like being told you suck