BetaTeaser
Banned
Oh my god. This post is hilarious.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
- Thread starter besada
- Start date
- Status
Oh my god. This post is hilarious.
Interfectum
Member
That's irrelevant. Sweeping generalizations are still being made.
Most people who play video games and would call themselves a "gamer" have nothing to do with the toxic environment on Twitter and 4chan. Hell, I'd wager a good amount of the people causing the trouble in the first place probably don't even play games. Trolling on the internet, making people write multiple articles on gaming websites, sending people into meltdowns on Twitter is their "game."
It would be if Intel hadn't pulled advertisement from a letter campaign by sexists.
lazorexplosion
Member
Oh look, its a guy equating a few nutters with gaming culture in general. People did in fact make statements like that.
And as for this facile ideology where groups are assigned prima faci 'oppressed' or 'not oppressed' status which then determines whether you can make sweeping generalizations about them... it's asinine. Wrong in it's over-simplicity of who the oppressed are (who were the oppressed in Rotherham? If a small minority of Muslims were oppressors there, can I suddenly make sweeping negative generalizations about Muslim culture?) and wrong in it's failure to make a consistent principle against sweeping stereotype mongering.
Lalalandia
Member
I call myself a gamer and I have no idea why anyone was insulted by the LA article. Like literally no idea, 'X is dead' is such an old rhetorical device I'm sure there's a cave painting somewhere declaring the death of spears.
Man I hope you were in the streets in 2009 with signs like #notallbankers and the likes.
Lalalandia
Member
Oh I see what you're doing here and I'm going to advise you to stop right now.
BetaTeaser
Banned
No, its still pretty damn funny.
Thanks for that, it was a pretty dull morning till I read that.
Are you equating fanatical hobbyists to that of a religion or ethnic culture?
thesolidshark
Member
A lot of people gave their explanations why in the thread about the article if you missed it.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=884360
Might just come down to a difference of opinion between you and them (or maybe you and us since I commented too), but you'll have an idea why.
scytheavatar
Member
WB is taking down videos by that which didn't sign the brand deals which is far worse than just offering brand deals. Either way there's no pitchfork at WB because 1) By now everyone already know how AAA games work and they know more than to listen to reviews for AAA games, 2) Shadow of Mordor is obviously a pretty good game and you don't need reviews to figure that out, 3) Even AAA companies treat their customers with more respect and professionalism than what some of the indies/journalists are doing ATM. I have never seen EA, Capcom or Activision attacking their own customers, no matter what that's dished to them. And you can't say that they haven't receive a terrifying amount of hate.
"Here's what it looks like" is the bit where it makes it not equating at all, and where I think you've gone wrong with everything.
And nobody is saying you can generalise anyone. Just that 1) They haven't been generalised and 2) Comparing the (imagined) treatment of people who forge an identity out of their primary leisure activity and the (actual, real, serious) treatment of actually marginalised groups really puts your "Ignorant and PROUD OF IT WOOOO" discourse bumper sticker on prominent display.
lazorexplosion
Member
I'm saying if you were a bigoted troll you could seize upon the actions of a few horrible people to make insulting generalizations about a large group of people who never had anything to do with it and no way to stop them.
We generally recognize this as wrong.
So #GamerGate isn't about corruption at all?
The Capcom that blame their customers every time they miss a target?
benicillin
Banned
That's because EA, Capcom and Activision aren't individual people. I think it's hard for some people to remember that the name they are harassing over Twitter is an actual person on the other side of there and deserves some amount of empathy regardless of their position. If you want to make a more apt comparison, folks in the AAA space have been individually harassed (such as Jennifer Hepler of Bioware) and many writers and developers at Bioware openly engaged in arguments with people harassing her.
Sure, it is wrong. I've yet to see the insulting generalizations that these bigots have made to gamers.
I do believe journos and readers Alike have a right to call each other out on their bullshit.
I still think the reaction is too extreme. Overreaction.
It was a disagreeable article. Her intent and message, if you could read through the aggressive tone, was good. But the delivery was not. Unfortunately, I think that article hurt the cause more than anything.
Many people simply just aren't willing to read passed the vitriol and I really can't blame them for that.
I do blame them for taking this as far as they did with such extreme overreaction and for enabling less savory persons to do bad things while hiding behind the gamergate banner. It's hard to find the message through all the noise but it seems many people supporting gamergate really do have valid concerns and a genuine purpose (despite the roots of the movement). But I feel that those people need to stop ignoring or trivializing the poor actions of others using the tag if they want to continue to use it. Either disassociate and continue fighting for what you believe in away from the crazies, or push the crazies out of your movement.
I've said before for example that I can't take it seriously when gamergate supporters refer to their opponents as "sjw". When you refuse to address the "other side" with respect and instead use a derogatory term, that really undermines your message. I also think it is wrong to see Intel pulling ads from Gamasutra as some sort of victory. That seems to me like you're saying writers need to censor themselves lest they write something disagreeable and have a mob bombard sponsors with complaints and lose a source of income.
It was a disagreeable article. Her intent and message, if you could read through the aggressive tone, was good. But the delivery was not. Unfortunately, I think that article hurt the cause more than anything.
Many people simply just aren't willing to read passed the vitriol and I really can't blame them for that.
I do blame them for taking this as far as they did with such extreme overreaction and for enabling less savory persons to do bad things while hiding behind the gamergate banner. It's hard to find the message through all the noise but it seems many people supporting gamergate really do have valid concerns and a genuine purpose (despite the roots of the movement). But I feel that those people need to stop ignoring or trivializing the poor actions of others using the tag if they want to continue to use it. Either disassociate and continue fighting for what you believe in away from the crazies, or push the crazies out of your movement.
I've said before for example that I can't take it seriously when gamergate supporters refer to their opponents as "sjw". When you refuse to address the "other side" with respect and instead use a derogatory term, that really undermines your message. I also think it is wrong to see Intel pulling ads from Gamasutra as some sort of victory. That seems to me like you're saying writers need to censor themselves lest they write something disagreeable and have a mob bombard sponsors with complaints and lose a source of income.
partyphone
Banned
gamergate isn't some noble cause that has been tainted by a few bad apples. it was started by bad apples(like adam baldwin). it was then piled onto by people who turn impotent rage into profit(see that milo guy). none of this was done in good faith.
then there are the people with good intentions who get caught up in it. they're like, yeah i'm against corruption. corruption is bad!
of course corruption is bad. but attacking jenn frank isn't fighting corruption. her contributing to patreon is the opposite of corruption. what gamergate was doingis harassing someone who is actually a good journalist and driving them out of the field. it's signaling to anyone else who might want to bring their unique perspective to gaming that maybe they should think twice.
with all this sound and fury what has gamergate actually accomplished? the escapist modified their ethics policy? what else is there? i keep asking and i haven't seen anything that isn't actually a bad thing. like kotaku's new stance on patreon. like spite funding a charity. like TFYC exploiting the situation for financial gain.
lazorexplosion
Member
lazorexplosion
Member
I don't actually care about the cause of gamer gate. At all. No interest in what Zoe Quinn may or may not have done. I'd just like to be a gamer without having gaming sites writing insulting articles about the rest of us because some niche issue attracted some of the 1% of the gamers who are trolls.
scytheavatar
Member
It's about a ton of things, youtube personalities and how they operate is a complicated subject by itself. Offering and accepting brand deals itself isn't corruption as long as the youtube personality makes it clear that they are paid to cover the game. It's corruption when it's blatantly used as a way to tilt coverage to your favor which the PR people at WB certainly are trying to do. WB is making a fool of themselves with how they treated Shadow of Mordor's youtube coverage, but they don't have a track record of doing that and some are willing to forgive it as a one off screwup.
What is happening for Gamergate on the other hand is something that's been boiling over for a long time. People need to understand the trigger for Gamergate isn't Zoe Quinn, it's Depression Quest. And how some think it's offensive hipster trash being pushed by certain people for unknown reasons, I personally don't care about it but it does strike me as not something indie devs should be taking very seriously. So Gamergate really isn't about Misogyny or corruption, it's a fight mainly about what the definition a "game" really is, and whether or not gaming can be taken seriously as an art form.
yes, Leigh is a bad writer with questionable morals sure and she said some shit that would not let me support any other claims she makes.
At the same time, like gamers, there are honest journalists/writers who can get their points across without resorting to slander. Basically the 'not all___' argument rearing its head again and proving that it's redundant. Of course people aren't talking about 'all gamers', man. Just the ones that ruin shit for everyone else. The bad eggs. That's one of the reasons I at least try to stay neutral to this thing because it's just an endless back/forth of good eggs defending the rotten ones, on both sides.
Holy shit it's a nonprofit game trying to show a point how are people this upset at a game like Depression Quest. I refuse to believe that there are people this fucking mad over fucking Depression Quest.
Gaming can be taken seriously as art when people like you can learn to stop taking shit so damn seriously and just let creators do their thing.
B_Boss
Member
If I'm interpreting that article correctly, I feel that anyone even remotely interested in this topic MUST read that article as a primer, an absolute must read for it sets the logical tone of the entire debate/issue and asks undeniably excellent questions concerning the nature of gamergate and what it's proponents actually desire. One of the best reads this week. Great post OP and encouragement to read Aeana.
partyphone
Banned
what insulting articles?
The Death of Adulthood in American Culture
Against YA (Young Adult Fiction)
Comic Book Movie Fans Are Ruining Comic Book Movies
Literally "the death of", "generalized swath of people ruining", or "this is bad from a critical perspective" articles have been done to death for tons of other media. You all need to broaden your horizons and read more than just video game journalism. Some of these linked ones are far more inflammatory and dismissive to groups than Leigh's piece to boot. The backlash wasn't nearly as bad.
Against YA (Young Adult Fiction)
Comic Book Movie Fans Are Ruining Comic Book Movies
Literally "the death of", "generalized swath of people ruining", or "this is bad from a critical perspective" articles have been done to death for tons of other media. You all need to broaden your horizons and read more than just video game journalism. Some of these linked ones are far more inflammatory and dismissive to groups than Leigh's piece to boot. The backlash wasn't nearly as bad.
scytheavatar
Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=734075
Harassment of Zoe Quinn has been going on for a long time already, lots of people do find Depression Quest to be offensive. I remember someone mentioning that trying to simulate depression is like trying to simulate having your leg broken.
Needs to be mentioned too that Zoe Quinn made her game free after Robbie Williams's suicide, and that can be seen as trying to use his suicide to generate publicity for herself.
Just stop there. Quinn did nothing wrong.
Hey you know who was dead fucking wrong about art?
People looking at Manet, Monet, Van Gogh, Mondrian, Picasso, Braque, Pollock, and saying "What is this offensive hipster trash? It's not even painting? Where's the greek dude holding a spear?!"
I don't know if that's an opinion you hold or if it's just something you feel you've observed, but holy shit it's some of the most backwards shit I've seen in this thread and that's saying something.
RicoTheMad
Banned
Maybe because WB has very little reason to hide Shadow Of Mordor because it's actually a freaking amazingly made game that came out of nowhere? Maybe WB is behind the times on youtubers and is overzealous in trying to protect a huge IP like LOTR?
What sort of conspiracies could you drum up with that, exactly? The game is well reviewed and is a quality piece of work. Why do people insist on acting like GG is made up entirely of ridiculous individuals (who are apparently the devil incarnate)? There's plenty of crazies on both sides of the fence, generalizations do not help anyone's argument.
Things on the internet would go so much better if people didn't just assume everyone they're talking to is just some huge evil monster.
It was always free, it was Robin Williams, and it was a pre-scheduled release date that she chose not to alter when the bad news hit as she figure it might help someone to understand their own feelings or even just those of another in a really shitty time.
I don't know what kind of point you were trying to make, if any, but try to get your facts straight at least. People tend to take you a lot more seriously.
scytheavatar
Member
I don't hold the opinion that gaming can't be art, but I do hold the opinion that there's a limit to how far gaming can be considered art. There's a constant battle going on for game creators: whether to give Lego Bricks to the players or to make something with Lego Bricks to show to them. And ATM there are devs who are too obsessed with the latter and not doing enough to let the players play with Lego bricks.
Again that's not my opinion, but lots of people in 4chan were seriously upset when it was announced that Depression Quest will be free after Robbie Williams's death.
So why has #GamerGate been so disingenuous about that? Why do they intentionally try to mislead people into thinking it's about corruption? Why has the talk about the definition of a game been so grossly overwhelmed by talk about Zoe and feminism and conspiracy theories?
If what you claim were true, there wouldn't have been so much drama over Zoe Quinn. Instead of talking about how she cheated on her boyfriend or broke her own definition of rape or falsely claiming she didn't donate to charity or falsely claiming she DDOSed TYFC (edit: or falsely claiming she made her game free to profit off of Robin William's suicide) or any of that other bullshit, they would have had a civil discussion about what a game is.
How can you honestly claim "it's about A" when it's plainly obvious that most of their effort is elsewhere?
Oh my god, Take That fans are going to be so sad when they hear about this.
Again, Robin.
It's not your opinion, but you're repeating factually inaccurate information from 4chan because...?
that literally did not happen. at all. i don't know what else to tell you.
Regardless of how much people say "it's okay because it's a good game!" there still far more grounds to call out corruption and conflict of interest with the Shadow of Mordor deals than with any of the clutching at straws bullshit GG has gone for so far.
Lalalandia
Member
When you stand beside the evil monster people are wont to assume you agree with it.
Also WB are slimy asshats for the whole SoM campaign regardless of the quality of the software. The point of even raising SoM is that this is an example of paid promotion kept on the down low until revealed by TB. Yet GG has no problem with this because it's a standard violent empowerment fantasy where you play generi-dude who kills shit from a huge corporation. But allegations that have been proven false again and again about undue prominence being afforded to an indie game about depression just will not fucking die though.
scytheavatar
Member
To give people here a better understanding about what is triggering Gamergate. Fact is Zoe Quinn could have been a male and there probably wouldn't be that much of a difference in the treatement she/he'll get. Misogyny is playing a much smaller part in the saga than what many think.
partyphone
Banned
Except misogyny plays a huge part in why people attack Zoe. So I don't get your point.
Neoriceisgood
Member
People trying to argue against making sweeping statements in this thread actually make me feel more okay about making sweeping statements.
Lalalandia
Member
No it is ALL about her gender where is this vitriol for any male journalist/dev you care to mention?
If you want to give people a better understanding of something, you shouldn't use information that is easily proven false -- misleading people with false information is the opposite of giving people a better understanding. Go look up Depression Quest's price before Robin Williams died.
FF Seraphim
Member
Is this post serious? Or are you joking?
The act against Quinn had misogynistic undertones, there is no denying that at all if you are basing your accusations from her ex-bf.
Do you honestly believe that the same thing would happen if:
A: The person wasn't an indie developer
B: The person was male
I can assure you it would not have the same mass movement other than say maybe Kotaku reporting on it and no one listening to them
partyphone
Banned
I think this is actually a bad way to argue this since men do get attacked(see the CoD guy who got death threats because they changed shotguns). The difference is in the volume and intensity of the harassment. on average women see it way more frequently and in much lager numbers then men.
Lalalandia
Member
Reasonable point I'd forgotten about that poor sod all for TTK in an online shooty bang FFS
Zombie James
Banned
That Verge article is an embarrassment, and the fact that Will Smith of all people is using it to push the Intel thing as "an astroturf campaign from protectionist gamers" just makes me sad.
Or Phil Fish. (even though his harassment got worse after he defended women)
- Status