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[SirPainsalot]

I won't claim to be hugely familiar with that publication, but do you really think reviewing cigars is equivalent to reviewing media?

Yes. Why wouldn't it? You have to know how the cigar tastes, how's smoke, what goes into it, what's a good compliment to it (types of wine, etc), what's the smoker's value here budget wise, good companies to buy from, etc. It's equivalent.

 

[tranciful]

I simply do not believe the label enthusiastic press is being used today for any reason other than to avoid the ethics of other journalists. The industry is billions of dollars a year larger than the glory days for Nintendo Power, and gaming is now enjoyed by far more people than in 1985.

It's not just a label though -- it describes a systemic difference.

From the medium piece:

There are, however, significant distinctions that need to be made, and virtually no one I spoke to made them. More than once, I was pointed to the Society of Professional Journalists Code of Ethics or the “10 Absolutes of Reuters Journalism” as a baseline for reform. Some of the standards we find in those are applicable across the board — bans on plagiarism, for example. Others are not.

To understand why, it’s necessary to acknowledge another distinction. Those codes were written primarily to uphold the reliability of news reportage, but not everything published in the gaming press is news reportage. Even stories that look like news aren’t always news. That’s because, historically, games journalism grew out of what’s called the enthusiast press — meaning that it was (and still is) written primarily by gaming enthusiasts, for other gaming enthusiasts.

It’s possible to see that distinction a bit more clearly if you compare the way games have traditionally been written about in a venue like, say, the New York Times, versus the way they usually covered in gaming magazines. Even when they weren’t being downright skeptical, non-enthusiast publishers tended to be at least agnostic about the value of games in general. When you write for an enthusiast press, though, you’ve already thrown out some measure of objectivity, since it’s assumed that you and your reader already agree that games are worth your time, money and interest.

Its origins as an enthusiast press have left a deep impress on the industry. A current events reporter for Reuters may sneak into a war zone to get the unvarnished truth, but that isn’t how enthusiast presses work. They rely for most of their information on the companies whose products they cover. Most of the news stories you read on your favorite gaming site are based on press releases. The interviews wouldn’t be possible if the site hadn’t maintained an amicable relationship with the publisher. The juicy tidbits that weren’t meant to be revealed so early are typically the result of writers and developers chumming it up at expos and conferences.

“Corruption” probably isn’t the right word for all of that. It isn’t like gaming magazines and sites started out with the standards endorsed by the SPJ and Reuters, but lost sight of their values over time. All along, chumminess with the makers of video games has been the cost of access to the information you’ve demanded as a gamer. That isn’t a recent development, and if you’ve been supporting the gaming press up until now, then you’ve been complicit in supporting those relationship, whether you realized it or not.

Doesn't matter how big the industry is. Gamers demand this stuff that depends on these sort of relationships. Personally I don't read much of that sort of thing (previews/reviews) -- I prefer the commentary/editorial content because I'm a dev and have an interest in where the industry is going etc.

 

[FoneBone]

I simply do not believe the label enthusiastic press is being used today for any reason other than to avoid the ethics of other journalists. The industry is billions of dollars a year larger than the glory days for Nintendo Power, and gaming is now enjoyed by far more people than in 1985.

But whether my belief is sound or not, expressing that belief is not a cry for harassment against anyone in the industry, which it was equated to by the person who asked me for a medical bill tally. As someone who agrees that the harassment is horrible and not justifiable for any reason, I find it incredibly sad that some of the people most vocal about how horrible it is will say such nasty things about anyone who dares speak their mind if they don't follow a certain script.

Have you actually bothered to read the aforementioned Medium piece, or Britton's posts?

 

[Teremap]

That may be true, but magazines like this don't have major scandals like GamerGate. Cigar fantastics are just enthusiastic as gamers, if they were doing anything unethical we would have heard about it by now

There is absolutely nothing about cigars that invites that sort of controversy to begin with.

They do not have stories with fictional characters being made by hundreds of people at a time. They are on a completely different playing field journalistically.

 

[MHWilliams]

Hi, I'm in (was in?) GameJournoPros. The topic has been discussed to death, with both myself and others chiming in about it.

Here's one of the main things you should know: "Press Clubs" have existed for well over a hundred years. The Denver Press Club claims to be the first one in America, having been founded in 1877. But if you Google "[Major city near you] press club," you'll almost certainly find one that many of your local newspaper and TV journalists are part of.

Maybe GameJournoPros should have been more public about its existence in the same way that those press clubs are (though it wasn't some huge secret. You know how I found out about it back in 2012? Twitter), but that's all it is. A press club. It's a collection of people in the same industry talking about issues related to that industry. Issues like adblock, embargoes, dealing with stingy PR...

Journalists know each other. Sometimes a coworker/friend at one outlet will move to another outlet. Sometimes people just get to know each other by covering the same events at the same times. There are no journalistic ethics rules against this.

Furthermore, press clubs are neither illegal or unethical. My bosses knew about GameJournoPros and that I was in it. They have no problem with it.

You could say that there's a worry about such a group being or becoming an echo-chamber, and I actually do think that's a fair concern. But here's the thing with writers: Most of them tend to disagree with each other. A lot. You could see some of that in the e-mails Breitbart has leaked, but it's been even more heated than that. Heck, we can't even agree on if review scores are a good thing or not.

If you want to find corruption in the games press, go ahead. Scrutinize ad deals, question free gifts/travel, make noise if a site seems to bow to pressure from advertisers (like in the oft-cited Jeff Gerstmann example). But a mailing list full of journalists isn't the corruption you're hoping to find.

The National Press club is still a thing! It has a headquarters and it's own website!

http://press.org/about/history

CBS Commentator Eric Severeid summed up what the Club means to its members. Speaking in 1982 in the ballroom where so many events had taken place, he called the Club the “sanctum sanctorum of American journalists … It’s Westminster Hall, it’s Delphi, it’s Mecca… the Wailing Wall for everybody in this country having anything to do with the news business; the only hallowed place I know that’s absolutely bursting with irreverence.”

Regardless, I read it and they still should be held to similar standards. Take something like Cigar Aficionado for example as enthusiastic press that have good ethical standards. They've run of the most respected magazines in the business and have been running for over 20 years and have had no scandals in all those years. You don't see them pushing agendas or writing articles about "smokers are over", they just write about cigars and sports which is the entire point of their enthusiast press magazine.

But you assume that games journalists aren't held to or don't hold themselves to the same standards. Why?

And again with pushing agendas. You realize Cigar Aficionado has waged campaigns against the EPA and OSHA right? Of course they push an agenda.

Fair points, there's nothing inherently wrong with press clubs. However, it becomes suspect when various journalists/writers from across various websites are writing the same articles with the exact same narrative in each, about how "gamers are over", and are all released with the same time frame. I'm not trying to say anyone of some grand conspiracy, leave that to the idiots on youtube, but you have to admit it's perfectly responsible for people to become suspect in this case.

I did this post already. Six articles, two link posts, and the latter four articles refer directly to the first two, showing they're likely responses. This doesn't seem to be the evidence of group think and collusion many think it is.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Ridiculous. It should and it does get crossed every single day. Videogames are not news. Do you know what videogame news would be? "Game A was released for console Y today. Publisher B expects it will sell 1,000,000 copies." Everything after that is an opinion. Reviews? Opinion. Previews? Opinion. Talking about an old game? Well it already came out, so all that's left is opinion. That's why videogame journalism is an enthusiast press, because almost everything written about games is opinion.

Yes, it does get crossed everyday and it really shouldn't in my opinion. While typical news would be pretty dry, that how it works in the real world. A proper preview should talk about the game, how it controls, the graphical fluidity, information, and the guy's opinion on it. That's why they should have separate people people doing news versus doing reviews/previews. However, the line is very murky between the two since obviously game sites don't have the significant funding so they have to reuse staff.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

That may be true, but magazines like this don't have major scandals like GamerGate. Cigar fantastics are just enthusiastic as gamers, if they were doing anything unethical we would have heard about it by now

There aren't any major scandals here though. It's just a bunch of noise from people who don't like people saying stuff that they disagree with, and harassing female developers.

 

[NickFire]

It's not just a label though -- it describes a systemic difference.

From the medium piece:


Doesn't matter how big the industry is. Gamers demand this stuff that depends on these sort of relationships. Personally I don't read much of that sort of thing (previews/reviews) -- I prefer the commentary/editorial content because I'm a dev and have an interest in where the industry is going etc.

Actually the size of the industry matters a great deal. There is too much money to be made by publishers not to let the information out. Human nature and greed will direct the pubs information to where they feel the get the most and best positive exposure for sure, but if everyone played by a single set of rules the info would still get out. Because without exposure, the industry would shrink, and the pubs would make less money.

 

[SirPainsalot]

There is absolutely nothing about cigars that invites that sort of controversy to begin with.

They do not have stories with fictional characters being made by hundreds of people at a time. They are on a completely different playing field journalistically.

So the work that goes into making cigars suddenly doesn't exist now? Hundreds of people work in cigar manufacturing companies, from the cigar makers to the marketers themselves. Hell, most good cigars are made by hand for pete's sake. Just because the cigars themselves aren't as complex as video games doesn't mean the enthusiast press shouldn't be held to the same standards for both.

 

[BriareosGAF]

Amusingly, Wine Spectator, the parent/sister publication of Cigar Aficionado, did have a big scandal about reviews/awards.

 

[Teremap]

Yes, it does get crossed everyday and it really shouldn't in my opinion. While typical news would be pretty dry, that how it works in the real world. A proper preview should talk about the game, how it controls, the graphical fluidity, information, and the guy's opinion on it. That's why they should have separate people people doing news versus doing reviews/previews. However, the line is very murky between the two since obviously game sites don't have the significant funding so they have to reuse staff.

Wow, I cannot disagree with your opinion any more than I already do.

The RPS article on objectivity does a good job of putting to paper my thoughts on the matter. I don't see any inherent value in perfect objectivity and, quite frankly, I don't understand why anyone does. We're human beings, not machines. We should embrace that.

 

[tranciful]

Actually the size of the industry matters a great deal. There is too much money to be made by publishers not to let the information out. Human nature and greed will direct the pubs information to where they feel the get the most and best positive exposure for sure, but if everyone played by a single set of rules the info would still get out. Because without exposure, the industry would shrink, and the pubs would make less money.

Except the bolded is impossible to enforce. One person decides they don't want to follow the rules, gets content early, which gets them readers because gamers demand content that depends on these chummy relationships -- the media that declines early preview access or early copies to review get less readers and go out of business and all we're left with is the ones who DO chum it up with publishers and we're back where we started.

 

[FoneBone]

Yes. Why wouldn't it? You have to know how the cigar tastes, how's smoke, what goes into it, what's a good compliment to it (types of wine, etc), what's the smoker's value here budget wise, good companies to buy from, etc. It's equivalent.

Well, for starters: media criticism inherently involves critique of narrative and potentially ideology as well; not to say that criticism of food or drink or cigars isn't subjective, but it's not likely to be divisive in the same ways.

Cigars also don't have "authors" or "stars" in the sense that media does.

 

[SirPainsalot]

But you assume that games journalists aren't held to or don't hold themselves to the same standards. Why?

And again with pushing agendas. You realize Cigar Aficionado has waged campaigns against the EPA and OSHA right? Of course they push an agenda.

Yeah they push a pro-cigar agenda. Pushing an agenda that is for the entire field of cigars is perfectly fine within the confines of itself and it's industry.

 

[skullmuffins]

Yes. Why wouldn't it? You have to know how the cigar tastes, how's smoke, what goes into it, what's a good compliment to it (types of wine, etc), what's the smoker's value here budget wise, good companies to buy from, etc. It's equivalent.

Do you consider cigars to be art? Can games be art, or are they simply products for consumption? Games are much closer to things like literature, film, or music - and those things have certainly seen their share of "scandals" over the years.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Wow, I cannot disagree with your opinion any more than I already do.

The RPS article on objectivity does a good job of putting to paper my thoughts on the matter. I don't see any inherent value in perfect objectivity and, quite frankly, I don't understand why anyone does. We're human beings, not machines. We should embrace that.

'Objectivity' just means 'don't say anything I don't agree with or don't want to hear'.

They refuse to believe that reviews are opinions, and see their own opinions as being the only unbiased ones.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Wow, I cannot disagree with your opinion any more than I already do.

The RPS article on objectivity does a good job of putting to paper my thoughts on the matter. I don't see any inherent value in perfect objectivity and, quite frankly, I don't understand why anyone does. We're human beings, not machines. We should embrace that.

I only said there should be a distinction from the people who write op-ed pieces, like reviews and previews, and news writers who dig for stories. Of course I wouldn't want perfect objectivity in stuff like reviews, that defeats the whole purpose.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Well, for starters: media criticism inherently involves critique of narrative and potentially ideology as well; not to say that criticism of food or drink or cigars isn't subjective, but it's not likely to be divisive in the same ways.

Cigars also don't have "authors" or "stars" in the sense that media does.

Sure they do. Country of origin, Company, etc, would all be big deals in that world.

Whats he is making the mistake with in this analogy is hes looking at one signal magazine versus an entire industry of people with separate ideas and methodologies.

 

[vcc]

So the work that goes into making cigars suddenly doesn't exist now? Hundreds of people work in cigar manufacturing companies, from the cigar makers to the marketers themselves. Hell, most good cigars are made by hand for pete's sake. Just because the cigars themselves aren't as complex as video games doesn't mean the enthusiast press shouldn't be held to the same standards for both.

Most enthusiast press have minimal standards. The game press is swinging way above their pay grade in what the better outfits already do. The whole thing is a redherring argument.

What do you think they should different that other enthusiast press does better?

Most enthusiast press is half in bed with the industry they cover with ad sells to the industry just like Games. A major outlet for MTG news is also a major retailer.

What change are you asking for?

 

[tranciful]

I only said there should be a distinction from op-ed pieces, like reviews and previews, and news writers who dig for stories. Of course I wouldn't want perfect objectivity in stuff like reviews, that defeats the whole purpose.

Leigh Alexander's piece was an op-ed though... so what's the problem?

I'm referring to your comment here:

You don't see them pushing agendas or writing articles about "smokers are over"

 

[FoneBone]

Sure they do. Country of origin, Company, etc, would all be big deals in that world.

Of course, but they're not people, and they're not going to be subjected to the same sorts of criticism about ideologies, out-of-context Tweets, politics, et cetera.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Yeah they push a pro-cigar agenda. Pushing an agenda that is for the entire field of cigars is perfectly fine within the confines of itself and it's industry.

"gamers are dead" is absolutely for the benefit of gaming as a whole. That was the point of the article.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Leigh Alexander's piece was an editorial though... so what's the problem?

Nothing wrong with it, I just said there should be a disquisition within the group of writers.

 

[vcc]

I only said there should be a distinction from the people who write op-ed pieces, like reviews and previews, and news writers who dig for stories. Of course I wouldn't want perfect objectivity in stuff like reviews, that defeats the whole purpose.

It's an enthusiast press, there really isn't many people digging for stories. The closest you get is Patrick Klepick. There is a lack of money for investigative journalism in the mainstream press, do you think any outlet could afford it for the game press?

 

[Jobiensis]

There is absolutely nothing about cigars that invites that sort of controversy to begin with.

They do not have stories with fictional characters being made by hundreds of people at a time. They are on a completely different playing field journalistically.

They literally cause cancer. Now, an industry publication for cigar makers might have an article about the decline of cigar smoking. I'm pretty certain that wouldn't cause a revolt in the cigar community.

Ironically, Leigh's article is the sort of thing you would see more in real journalism than the enthusiast press. The whole 'don't say anything to anger me or make me think', is what most enthusiast press does.

We want ethics, don't tell us about harassment or misogyny. We want fluff articles that don't question anything in our hobby, we want real journalists. The movement doesn't even know what it wants.

 

[vcc]

Nothing wrong with it, I just said there should be a disquisition within the group of writers.

So what you're saying is you are passionately concerned about a policy which is already very common before this thing blew up?

 

[tranciful]

.

 

[SirPainsalot]

"gamers are dead" is absolutely for the benefit of gaming as a whole. That was the point of the article.

Wait so you would be okay with say, cigar aficionado, wrote a piece actively insulting it's reader base? How would that be for the benefit of those reader and the cigar industry as a whole? Same logic applies to games.

 

[FoneBone]

"Gamers" are not Gamasutra's reader base. That doesn't mean that gamers don't have a right to criticize the site, but that's a distortion of the article and its context.

 

[SirPainsalot]

So what you're saying is you are passionately concerned about a policy which is already very common before this thing blew up?

What policy are you referring to? Game journalists do a variety of jobs, from reviews to news coverages. That's a fact, just look at what any normal games journalist puts out. I just said there should be a disquisition between who does the objective news and who does op-eds, like reviews and previews.

"Gamers" are not Gamasutra's reader base. That doesn't mean that gamers don't have a right to criticize the site, but that's a distortion of the article and its context.

Then what is the userbase of Gamasutra exactly? What's the userbase of places like Joystick and Kotaku then too?

 

[tranciful]

Wait so you would be okay with say, cigar aficionado, wrote a piece actively insulting it's reader base? How would that be for the benefit of those reader and the cigar industry as a whole? Same logic applies to games.

Hey, you just said there was nothing wrong with it.

 

[tchocky]

Wait so you would be okay with say, cigar aficionado, wrote a piece actively insulting it's reader base? How would that be for the benefit of those reader and the cigar industry as a whole? Same logic applies to games.

Leigh Alexander wrote that article for Gamasutra whose readerbase is game developers not gamers. At no point did she say game developers are over so she did not insult her reader base.

 

[MHWilliams]

Nothing wrong with it, I just said there should be a disquisition within the group of writers.

There was and is. Again, six articles. Countless discussions behind the scenes. And a number of writers who are remaining out of it, or catering towards GamerGate.

I guess I'm unclear what your aim is. Could you provide a bit more illumination on that, please?

It's an enthusiast press, there really isn't many people digging for stories. The closest you get is Patrick Klepick. There is a lack of money for investigative journalism in the mainstream press, do you think any outlet could afford it for the game press?

Klepek and Jason are probably the cloests and they still have to augment their output with other work. The closest to those major writers at larger newspapers include Simon Parkin, Christian Donlan, and Cara Ellison. They tend to write only larger pieces.

What policy are you referring to? Game journalists do a variety of jobs, from reviews to news coverages. That's a fact, just look at what any normal games journalist puts out. I just said there should be a disquisition between who does the objective news and who does op-eds, like reviews and previews.

Disquisition? I think you may be using that word wrong. You're talking a separation between news and other coverage, right? Many larger sites already operate that way. Polygon, GameInformer, etc. They have separate news, review, and feature editors.

Then what is the userbase of Gamasutra exactly? What's the userbase of places like Joystick and Kotaku then too?

Gamasutra is dev-centric, like GamesIndustry.biz. Joystiq and Kotaku, no clue. The average enthusiast gamer and beyond?

The weird thing is, if you want to know what people are reading at Kotaku, all that's available. Gawker Media posts all that stuff publicly. Here. The most hits? Brian Ashcraft, Luke Plunkett, Patricia Hernandez, Jason Schreier, and Nathan Grayson. In that order.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Hey, you just said there was nothing wrong with it.

I was talking about a different subject there. While I disagree with what she wrote, it's an editorial piece and she has every right to write what she wants.

 

[vcc]

Wait so you would be okay with say, cigar aficionado, wrote a piece actively insulting it's reader base? How would that be for the benefit of those reader and the cigar industry as a whole? Same logic applies to games.

Their entire readership isn't you guys. You guys are a tiny fragment of the gamers.

If some writer wrote an article about how toxic the Cuban only segment of the cigar enthusiasts are; it's be an article.

I don't see it as anything to be worked up about. I think a lot of people are over reacting. It's a trivial nothing. You treat it like she physically assaulted you.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Wait so you would be okay with say, cigar aficionado, wrote a piece actively insulting it's reader base? How would that be for the benefit of those reader and the cigar industry as a whole? Same logic applies to games.

Sometimes the truth and difficult to hear, man. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be said.

 

[Firestorm]

That may be true, but magazines like this don't have major scandals like GamerGate. Cigar fantastics are just enthusiastic as gamers, if they were doing anything unethical we would have heard about it by now

Why would we have heard about it? What makes you think GamerGate is a major scandal? Even my friends who play games a lot barely know about it. The ones who do know about it consider it to be a bunch of people against the fight for equal rights by minority groups. This is how Canada's public broadcaster and news company mentions it:

http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcommunity/2014/10/women-talking-video-games.html

Many gamers denounce the threats against Sarkeesian, but for some, her criticism is seen as an attack on them personally. They consider it part of a conspiracy they've called Gamer Gate.

GamerGate is for those who took critique of art and entertainment as a personal attack on their self-worth. That's how it seems for those looking in and that's the message being portrayed. Journalism has nothing to do with it for those outside your bubble.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Their entire readership isn't you guys. You guys are a tiny fragment of the gamers.

If some writer wrote an article about how toxic the Cuban only segment of the cigar enthusiasts are; it's be an article.

I don't see it as anything to be worked up about. I think a lot of people are over reacting. It's a trivial nothing. You treat it like she physically assaulted you.

But gamers are basically their entire audience. Who else exactly are they writing for?

Sometimes the truth and difficult to hear, man. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be said.

That's your personal opinion. I may disagree with it but that doesn't mean either side is the objective truth.

 

[vcc]

What policy are you referring to? Game journalists do a variety of jobs, from reviews to news coverages. That's a fact, just look at what any normal games journalist puts out. I just said there should be a disquisition between who does the objective news and who does op-eds, like reviews and previews.

Most outlets have 'features' and 'reviews' as separate article types with different site sections.

The outfits are micro-sized; features and reviews are done by the same people because there is very few people there. Look at your local paper. The op-eds are often written by the news reporters as well and sometimes by the entertainment writers making movies reviews. The idea you need to keep separate staff for it is odd. Why? Review writers aren't allowed to write features/op-eds? I don't see why that should be.

 

[tranciful]

I was talking about a different subject there. While I disagree with what she wrote, it's an editorial piece and she has every right to write what she wants.

Bullshit.

From earlier:

Oh shit, was reading the wrong article. My bad.

Regardless, I read it and they still should be held to similar standards. Take something like Cigar Aficionado for example as enthusiastic press that have good ethical standards. They've run of the most respected magazines in the business and have been running for over 20 years and have had no scandals in all those years. You don't see them pushing agendas or writing articles about "smokers are over", they just write about cigars and sports which is the entire point of their enthusiast press magazine.

We're talking about journalism ethics here and you point to that article as an example of what you're against.

 

[vcc]

But gamers are basically their entire audience. Who else exactly are they writing for?

No all gamers are toxic and immature. It's pretty clear she meant the gamergate people which is a tiny fraction of all gamers.

 

[kitschykitty]

But gamers are basically their entire audience. Who else exactly are they writing for?

People making games, as it says right below their logo at the very top of their website. On top of that websites don't have to cater to an entire market, a film website couldn't possibly be expected to appeal to every film enthusiast

 

[SirPainsalot]

Bullshit.

From earlier:



We're talking about journalism ethics here and you point to that article as an example of what you're against.

It's not bullshit. While we're talking about ethics as a whole, the two subjects I'm debating here are why op-ed writers should be distinguished from objective news writers. The other subject was about how I was perfectly fine with her piece because it as an editorial. I may not agree with her opinion but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[Vlade]

I was going to say "I don't think she should've censored herself," but I don't fully believe that given some of the result, mainly because I can't see myself writing like she does, even if I'm pissed off. She vented emotionally, maybe spontaneously, got stuff off her chest, spoke strongly, and people reacted for better or for worse.

I can feel for her in what she received outside of criticism, but I don't think she's in the clear with the statements she made. Individuals were bad for harassing her and worse, and she was bad for how she chose to vent in my opinion. If that's the premise of mine you find disturbing, ok.

What I was poking at in what you said is that there is something of an apologists approach to making points in which we say "sure, they did the bad thing, but they have a point". The disturbing bit is that it makes the conversation more complicated because I can't reach out and say "I get that she is abbrasive" because the issue in my mind related to the backlash have tacitly been condoned by the subject change. I don't see her being abbrasive as an issue.

I appreciate that I myself am being sensitive to the matter, and I'm using strong words because this approach has risen a few times. All that force isn't really all for you, but for the point of view.

 

[The Librarian]

Oh shit, was reading the wrong article. My bad.

Regardless, I read it and they still should be held to similar standards. Take something like Cigar Aficionado for example as enthusiastic press that have good ethical standards. They've run of the most respected magazines in the business and have been running for over 20 years and have had no scandals in all those years. You don't see them pushing agendas or writing articles about "smokers are over", they just write about cigars and sports which is the entire point of their enthusiast press magazine.

Wanting women to be treated with respect (and not wanting to see them harassed), and wanting more women in the videogame field, isn't pushing an agenda.

 

[Teremap]

But gamers are basically their entire audience. Who else exactly are they writing for?

We've been down this road before. Guess I have to repeat that she was not badmouthing ALL GAMERS in her article and was obviously speaking specifically of the toxic segment of those who self-identify as "gamers".

I'm seriously getting tired of this point in particular. We've run this one aground several times by now.

 

[SirPainsalot]

No all gamers are toxic and immature. It's pretty clear she meant the gamergate people which is a tiny fraction of all gamers.

We've been down this road before. Guess I have to repeat that she was not badmouthing ALL GAMERS in her article and was obviously speaking specifically of the toxic segment of those who self-identify as "gamers".

I'm seriously getting tired of this point in particular. We've run this one aground several times by now.

But then why label the article as saying "gamers are over?" That's a gross generalization if she intended to just target a specific sub-section of the readerbase. I don't say "Islamic people are over" when I'm talking about extremist like ISIS.

Wanting women to be treated with respect (and not wanting to see them harassed), and wanting more women in the videogame field, isn't pushing an agenda.

Even if it is a great agenda, it's still an agenda. Agenda isn't a negative word.

 

[Orayn]

We've been down this road before. Guess I have to repeat that she was not badmouthing ALL GAMERS in her article and was obviously speaking specifically of the toxic segment of those who self-identify as "gamers".

I'm seriously getting tired of this point in particular. We've run this one aground several times by now.

The title made me mad, therefore CORRUPTION AGENDA something something. QED

 

[tranciful]

why op-ed writers should be distinguished from objective news writers.

You're not distinguishing between writers. You don't reference writers when you make your arguments -- you mention entire sites -- Kotaku, Gamasutra, etc and compare them to Cigar Aficionado.

 

[vcc]

Wanting women to be treated with respect (and not wanting to see them harassed), and wanting more women in the videogame field, isn't pushing an agenda.

To be fair it is an agenda but a good one.

Wanting progressive writers silenced and punished as GamerGate people do is a awful agenda and extremely transparent.