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What made Squaresoft get so angry at Nintendo?

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A

Alex_Mexico

Member
So I was watching this "Gaming Mysteries" episode about the beta/earlier builds of Paper Mario and the different iterations and titles it got before getting the final one:
http://youtu.be/6xjeAFN-GFw

And I heard something I've never once came across before.

According to this Youtuber, the main reason Paper Mario wasn't called Super Mario RPG2 was because Square, still pissed off at Nintendo, wouldn't let them choose that name because they worked on the original SMRPG.

This blew my fucking mind!

First of all, how in the world can Square have the power to do that? Yes they made the original one but Nintendo owns the IP right?

And second, what the hell happened exactly? Do we even know? I always thought Square went to the PS1 because they just thought that Sony's console was better in line with what they were aiming for rather than Nintendo's obtuse cartridge based N64 (needless to say, a wise decision). But I always thought it was this simple. I never heard before they were "pissed" at Nintendo.

What the heck went wrong with the once cozy Square-Nintendo relationship?
 
Banjotanooki

Banjotanooki

Member
I think Square was pissed Nintendo was going the route of cartridges for N64 and not adopting CD's like Sony did with the PS1 hence why FF7 appeared on there instead of N64. They even developed a prototype running on N64, I believe...

EDIT: And....beaten....
 
D

Damaniel

Banned
Squaresoft wanted to make a game (Final Fantasy 7) that relied heavily on large numbers of 2D backdrops, textured 3D models, and - most importantly - CG video. Nintendo, in their infinite stubbornness, opted to make their then-current gen console (the Nintendo 64) cartridge-based. Cartridges, no matter how big they could make them at the time, could only hold a small fraction of what Square wanted to put into them. Sony offered them a console with (effectively) equivalent functionality, but - more importantly - CD storage. The rest is history - Nintendo never really recovered from that, because it was a couple generations more before their consoles were able to hold the amount of data used by the average Final Fantasy game, and Squaresoft had been with Sony long enough at that point to make Nintendo ports of their big-name titles very unlikely.

Alex_Mexico said:
It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
Click to expand...

I never thought of their parting as some acrimonious thing where both sides hated each other - it was more of a pragmatic decision; Squaresoft wanted to go one way and Nintendo wanted to go another.
 
mrmickfran

mrmickfran

Member
Alex_Mexico said:
It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
Click to expand...

Didn't I read somewhere that Yamauchi said that RPGs are for losers who live in their mom's basement?
 
T

texhnolyze

Banned
Damaniel said:
Squaresoft wanted to make a game (Final Fantasy 7) that relied heavily on large numbers of 2D backdrops, textured 3D models, and - most importantly - CG video. Nintendo, in their infinite stubbornness, opted to make their then-current gen console (the Nintendo 64) cartridge-based. Cartridges, no matter how big they could make them at the time, could only hold a small fraction of what Square wanted to put into them. Sony offered them a console with (effectively) equivalent functionality, but - more importantly - CD storage. The rest is history - Nintendo never really recovered from that, because it was a couple generations more before their consoles were able to hold the amount of data used by the average Final Fantasy game.
Click to expand...

This is what I've heard.
Final Fantasy 7.
 
G

gdt

Member
Alex_Mexico said:
It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
Click to expand...

I don't know that they were all that angry. Nintendo probably didn't use the SMRPG name out of respect seeing as Square wasn't involved anymore. Not that Square forbade them or anything.
 
A

AngryNapkin

Banned
Alex_Mexico said:
It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
Click to expand...

Nintendo just pissed third parties off in general. There are lots of reasons, royalties, limited runs on games, using carts instead of CDs, etc.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
linkman26 said:
I think Square was pissed Nintendo was going the route of cartridges for N64 and not adopting CD's like Sony did with the PS1 hence why FF7 appeared on there instead of N64. They even developed a prototype running on N64, I believe...

EDIT: And....beaten....
Click to expand...
So you're saying that because Nintendo went with cartridges and after Square made millions developing for the PS1 they were so pissed off at Nintendo that after close to 5 years of rupture they would go out of their way to deny Nintendo naming a game Super Mario RPG2? Because of cartridges?

This still doesn't explain how the hell Square had the power to deny Nintendo of using the name SMRPG2!
 
B

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
Alex_Mexico said:
It can't be just that. They would've just go with Sony and that was it. Square didn't get this angry at Nintendo because they chose a format they didn't want.
Click to expand...

But it is. Cartridges back then were expensive in comparasion of CDs, and disk space was a big deal for Square.
 
Z

Zee-Row

Banned
Square had ambitions to make CD games way before the PS1 , Secret of Mana was in development for the SNES-CD Playstation and I think Square had to rework the entire game after Nintendo pulled the plug on the Sony deal. I think Square had no choice but to stay with Nintendo since they were the market leader and then decided to jump to Sony when they saw the lower licencing fees and CD media.
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Damaniel said:
Squaresoft wanted to make a game (Final Fantasy 7) that relied heavily on large numbers of 2D backdrops, textured 3D models, and - most importantly - CG video. Nintendo, in their infinite stubbornness, opted to make their then-current gen console (the Nintendo 64) cartridge-based. Cartridges, no matter how big they could make them at the time, could only hold a small fraction of what Square wanted to put into them. Sony offered them a console with (effectively) equivalent functionality, but - more importantly - CD storage. The rest is history - Nintendo never really recovered from that, because it was a couple generations more before their consoles were able to hold the amount of data used by the average Final Fantasy game, and Squaresoft had been with Sony long enough at that point to make Nintendo ports of their big-name titles very unlikely.
Click to expand...

What's interesting about this story is that only a few years later they found a way to fit Resident Evil 2 onto an N64 cart with some sorcery-like compression techniques.
 
A

AngryNapkin

Banned
Zee-Row said:
Square had ambitions to make CD games way before the PS1 , Secret of Mana was in development for the SNES-CD Playstation and I think Square had to rework the entire game after Nintendo pulled the plug on the Sony deal. I think Square had no choice but to stay with Nintendo since they were the market leader and then decided to jump to Sony when they saw the lower licencing fees and CD media.
Click to expand...

Basically the moment that PS became the market leader everyone jumped ship and was happy because of it.
 
E

encephalon

Member
Unknown Soldier said:
What's interesting about this story is that only a few years later they found a way to fit Resident Evil 2 onto an N64 cart with some sorcery-like compression techniques.
Click to expand...

Resident evil 2 is a relatively tiny game that can be beat in two hours with much of the same content being shared by two discs.
 
Z

Zee-Row

Banned
Ishida said:
Yep. And that was one of several reasons why Square gave the middle finger to Nintendo.
Click to expand...

Nintendo then gave a middle finger back by preventing Square from developing GBA games at the beginning of the system's life. Square and Nintendo only patched things up after Yamauchi retired and Iwata took over since hes a more reasonable dude.
 
S

Syril

Member
I had read that Secret of Mana was going to be their big CD-based game back when the SNES was going to have a CD addon, and when it fell through at the last minute, they had to make huge cuts to fit it on a cartridge. It's pretty obvious if you play it that there are things missing in it.
 
N

Nosgotham

Junior Member
The n64 was not conducive to the square vision at that time. I'm sure some stuff went on behind the scenes that we don't know about. They created a great series for the GC and heavily supported the wii and DS so it didn't last that long.

Could it have something to do with the new president of Nintendo? My guess...probably.
 
MrCunningham

MrCunningham

Member
encephalon said:
That demo was not running on n64.
Click to expand...

People still believe that false rumor. The Final Fantasy 6 3D demo ran on a Silicon Indigo workstation, and it was their showcase for the Siggraph 95' exhibition.

I honestly don;t think it had anything to do with Square getting "angry", it was a business decision that they had to make and the N64 just didn't have the storage medium needed for them to develop their next big FF game on.

I think there was probably more anger from the Nintendo side than the Square side.
 
L

LegalEagleMike

Member
Zee-Row said:
Nintendo then gave a middle finger back by preventing Square from developing GBA games at the beginning of the system's life. Square and Nintendo only patched things up after Yamauchi retired and Iwata took over sice hes a more reasonable dude.
Click to expand...

and now we have bravely default which is as close as we are going to get to good final fantasy games.
 
J

Jigorath

Banned
The same reason why every third party was so quick to jump ship from Nintendo as soon as Sony arrived. Nintendo treated them like shit. This is the same company that said things like this:

"I've been told that Sony won over Nintendo by surrounding itself with software companies, and I will admit that situation was there in the past. However, times have changed, and it's no longer a race to see how many useless companies you can get on your side. There are many people in the industry that know nothing about games. In particular, an American company is trying to do the same thing by engulfing software houses with money, but I don't believe that will go well. It looks like they'll sell their game system next year, but we'll see the answer to that the following year," he explained.
Click to expand...
 
O

Oddduck

Member
Jigorath said:
The same reason why every third party was so quick to jump ship from Nintendo as soon as Sony arrived. Nintendo treated them like shit. This is the same company that said things like this:
Click to expand...

"I've been told that Sony won over Nintendo by surrounding itself with software companies, and I will admit that situation was there in the past. However, times have changed, and it's no longer a race to see how many useless companies you can get on your side. There are many people in the industry that know nothing about games. In particular, an American company is trying to do the same thing by engulfing software houses with money, but I don't believe that will go well. It looks like they'll sell their game system next year, but we'll see the answer to that the following year," he explained.
Click to expand...

That Hiroshi Yamauchi quote always makes me laugh, haha.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
Jigorath said:
The same reason why every third party was so quick to jump ship from Nintendo as soon as Sony arrived. Nintendo treated them like shit. This is the same company that said things like this:
Click to expand...
Who the hell said that? Was it Yamauchi? I assume this was after the OG Xbox was revealed...

And to think Nintendo would finish THIRD in that race!
 
Z

Zee-Row

Banned
This was the point where you knew Yamauchi was a hinder to Nintendo and his time had passed with these horrible business decisions.

http://thegia.com/archive/news/0101/n29a.html

In what must come as a shock to Nintendo fans hoping for a return from Square, NCL President Hiroshi Yamauchi has now publically refused to consider the idea, even after a friendly overture from Square last week regarding Game Boy Advance remakes of Final Fantasy IV-VI.

"There is no contract with Square, and that matter is not open to further discussion...[Square] can say whatever they want, but we have no intention of signing a contract, and there's little chance of one being signed in the future," Yamauchi said in an interview conducted by Bloomberg Japan and partially translated by Gamers.com. This was in stark constrast to his position on rival Sega, who he said "has an agreement" to make GBA software and has already begun development.

The other company to feel Yamauchi's wrath was Microsoft. He acknowledged that Bill Gates is "a great businessman, but he is only human."

"There is one thing he knows nothing about, and that's games. If you know nothing about sumo, you can't expect to take on a yokozuna...I expect even in a year's time they'll be able to see the consequences of this," he continued.

Having now served as president of NCL for over 50 years, Yamauchi said again that there were no plans for his retirement and that he had given "no thought at all" to a successor.
 
D

dave_d

Member
And of course there's the story I always like to bring up about Nintendo screwing over Capcom with Super Street Fighter 2 on the SNES as an example of them screwing over anybody. (Which is surprising since SF2 was one of the titles that really sold the system early in its life, you'd think Nintendo would cut Capcom a few breaks.)
 
U

Uncle Rupee

Banned
Alex_Mexico said:
And to think Nintendo would finish THIRD in that race!
Click to expand...

I really hate this myth and wish it would die. Microsoft lost a billion dollars every year the OG Xbox was sold. Even if the OG Xbox technically outsold the Gamecube (which was by a slim margin, in any case), Nintendo was making mad bank with the GBA. It was by far the more profitable manufacturer during that period. Furthermore we don't know if Microsoft included system refurbs in their sales numbers, which could be a factor as the OG Xbox was much more prone to failures than the Gamecube. I worked in game retail during those years, and we sent off dozens of broken PS2s (and to a lesser extent Xboxes) during that time, but fewer Gamecubes than I can count on one hand.
 
C

Crayolan

Member
Zee-Row said:
This was the point where you knew Yamauchi was a hinder to Nintendo and his time had passed with these horrible business decisions.

http://thegia.com/archive/news/0101/n29a.html

In what must come as a shock to Nintendo fans hoping for a return from Square, NCL President Hiroshi Yamauchi has now publically refused to consider the idea, even after a friendly overture from Square last week regarding Game Boy Advance remakes of Final Fantasy IV-VI.

"There is no contract with Square, and that matter is not open to further discussion...[Square] can say whatever they want, but we have no intention of signing a contract, and there's little chance of one being signed in the future," Yamauchi said in an interview conducted by Bloomberg Japan and partially translated by Gamers.com. This was in stark constrast to his position on rival Sega, who he said "has an agreement" to make GBA software and has already begun development.

The other company to feel Yamauchi's wrath was Microsoft. He acknowledged that Bill Gates is "a great businessman, but he is only human."

"There is one thing he knows nothing about, and that's games. If you know nothing about sumo, you can't expect to take on a yokozuna...I expect even in a year's time they'll be able to see the consequences of this," he continued.

Having now served as president of NCL for over 50 years, Yamauchi said again that there were no plans for his retirement and that he had given "no thought at all" to a successor.
Click to expand...

lol, Yamauchi treated the console market like a war zone. Gotta respect that confidence.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
Zee-Row said:
This was the point where you knew Yamauchi was a hinder to Nintendo and his time had passed with these horrible business decisions.

http://thegia.com/archive/news/0101/n29a.html

In what must come as a shock to Nintendo fans hoping for a return from Square, NCL President Hiroshi Yamauchi has now publically refused to consider the idea, even after a friendly overture from Square last week regarding Game Boy Advance remakes of Final Fantasy IV-VI.

"There is no contract with Square, and that matter is not open to further discussion...[Square] can say whatever they want, but we have no intention of signing a contract, and there's little chance of one being signed in the future," Yamauchi said in an interview conducted by Bloomberg Japan and partially translated by Gamers.com. This was in stark constrast to his position on rival Sega, who he said "has an agreement" to make GBA software and has already begun development.

The other company to feel Yamauchi's wrath was Microsoft. He acknowledged that Bill Gates is "a great businessman, but he is only human."

"There is one thing he knows nothing about, and that's games. If you know nothing about sumo, you can't expect to take on a yokozuna...I expect even in a year's time they'll be able to see the consequences of this," he continued.

Having now served as president of NCL for over 50 years, Yamauchi said again that there were no plans for his retirement and that he had given "no thought at all" to a successor.
Click to expand...
Holy mother of crap!!! How can a company president say this and keep his job!?!?

I think I'm beginning to understand what happened. It seemes Square left in a peaceful way by just having pragmatic reasons but Nintendo was the one that got saltier than an obsessive exgirlfriend who just got dumped.

Nintendo was the one that got pissed, and very vocally so! And after years of bad mouthing from Nintendo and red tape they put on Square they retaliated where they could, and that might've been them not letting Nintendo use the name Super Mario RPG.

You think this might be it? This still doesn't explain how the hell could Square have any say on Nintendo naming a new Mario game. After all, Nintendo owns SMRPG, not Square.

Yamauchi should've stepped down at least ten years earlier.
 
U

Uncle Rupee

Banned
Alex_Mexico said:
Holy mother of crap!!! How can a company president say this and keep his job!?!?

I think I'm beginning to understand what happened. It seemes Square left in a peaceful way by just having pragmatic reasons but Nintendo was the one that got saltier than an obsessive exgirlfriend who just got dumped.
Click to expand...

To be fair, Square not only dumped Nintendo for PlayStation when they could have at least thrown the N64 a bone (who wouldn't be curious what Square would have cooked up on that console?), but then when the Wonderswan came out they gave it a huge boost by releasing Final Fantasy 1 and 2 on it (among several other exclusives), threatening Nintendo's stranglehold of the portable market. So when Nintendo released the GBA and crushed the Wonderswan (and Neo Geo Pocket Color) he was having none of Square trying to profit off the GBA... at least at first. As we all know it didn't take long for Square to start publishing games on the GBA.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
Uncle Rupee said:
I really hate this myth and wish it would die. Microsoft lost a billion dollars every year the OG Xbox was sold. Even if the OG Xbox technically outsold the Gamecube (which was by a slim margin, in any case), Nintendo was making mad bank with the GBA. It was by far the more profitable manufacturer during that period. Furthermore we don't know if Microsoft included system refurbs in their sales numbers, which could be a factor as the OG Xbox was much more prone to failures than the Gamecube. I worked in game retail during those years, and we sent off dozens of broken PS2s (and to a lesser extent Xboxes) during that time, but fewer Gamecubes than I can count on one hand.
Click to expand...
That last part is anecdotal evidence that counts for nothing.

I do agree on that MS lost billions with the OG Xbox, that's why it lasted less than 5 years before it was euthanized. Just don't get the GBA mixed here. I am talking only about home consoles.

The fact of the matter still stands: Nintendo, in its infinite wisdom and cockiness, managed to loose in overall units sold to the new american competitor they so much spoke down about. And just before finishing third they finished a distant second from another new kid on the block: Sony.

Nintendo clearly did many a bad decision here.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
dave_d said:
And of course there's the story I always like to bring up about Nintendo screwing over Capcom with Super Street Fighter 2 on the SNES as an example of them screwing over anybody. (Which is surprising since SF2 was one of the titles that really sold the system early in its life, you'd think Nintendo would cut Capcom a few breaks.)
Click to expand...
Care to share that story? Not all of us know about it!
 
MrCunningham

MrCunningham

Member
mrmickfran said:
Didn't I read somewhere that Yamauchi said that RPGs are for losers who live in their mom's basement?
Click to expand...

Well, they did take gaming out of the basement dweller ghetto and into the mother's family friendly living room with the Wii. Who needs Final Fantasy, when you have Wii Sports instead? Right?
 
R

RK128

Member
Well, Geno did make an appearance in Mario and Luigi: Super Star Saga via Easter Egg and the Forest Maze (a remix too :D) from Mario RPG was supposed to be in Brawl (but was cut for some reason :l), so Square can't be mad at Nintendo now :).

Regarding the topic though.....I guess they were just pissed that their partner they worked with decided to go in a different direction from what they wanted to go in? I mean, like prior posters here said, FF7 had a prototype for the N64 and it was supposed to be on it, but due to the N64's low amount of space, the game had to shift gears to the PS1 (thanks to its support for CD-ROMS).

It could also be that they wanted to make a Mario RPG 2 with Nintendo but down the line Nintendo said "No, we have our own teams for that now....sorry :l", leading to Square getting pissed over that.

Either way, we got the original Mario RPG that laid the foundations for the excellent Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games :D. The best part? A ton of the the team behind Mario RPG left Squaresoft at some point to form Alphadream....the team behind the Mario and Luigi series :).

Edit: Wow....forgot how....ruthless Yamiguchi was to people O_O......

I guess his bitterness toward third parties was the reasoning for Square having issues with the Mario RPG name being used?
 
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