Support NeoGAF

[Fenderputty]

Perhaps you would prefer I pile on a republican. That would probably make it less pathetic.



I don't have a solution or opinion on why the penal system is lopsided but I seem to be the only person to at least offer the statistics forward. Everyone else just wants to say "lol republican said something about black people lol"

I would prefer you make a comment. Not dance around saying "I don't have a solution or an opinion one way or the other" or play the "I'm a poor republican on GAF card. "

Everyone in here saying "lol Giuliani" already assumes it's not race but institutional flaws and structural poverty.

I'm sorry for breaking up your "lol Republican" party. I'll see my way to the gaming side.

LOL ... that was predictable.

 

[PopeReal]

I'm sorry for breaking up your "lol Republican" party. I'll see my way to the gaming side.

Holy fuck guy. Then please show us how is comments are correct or can at least be argued.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I'm sorry for breaking up your "lol Republican" party. I'll see my way to the gaming side.

Before this escalates further, perhaps what he and others are getting at is:

1) The article in the OP is Rudy Giuliani essentially saying that Obama should tell the nation that black people need to police themselves because of [statistics]
2) Giuliani is clearly aware of the statistics and appears to have already drawn the conclusion that blacks are incarcerated/less-educated/have "broken families" more often BECAUSE blacks are doing something wrong
3) Giuliani's conclusion is troubling, as it infers that [statistics] are the result of blacks perpetuating certain behavior, ignoring any external or systemic influences

THAT'S why people are mocking him--not because the statistics are right/wrong, but that Giuliani reduces it to a bootstraps argument.

 

[DogMeat77]

Yeah, you do that.

LOL

Which do you think is the case?

So I only get to pick option A. or B? It can't be a much more nuanced problem in society that has been building since the handicapping of the slavery days?

I would prefer you make a comment. Not dance around saying "I don't have a solution or an opinion one way or the other" or play the I"m a poor republican on GAF card.

Everyone in here saying "lol Giuliani" already assumes it's not race but institutional flaws and structural poverty.

So you (generally speaking) can dance around it. Only I'm not allowed to. Got it.

Holy fuck guy. Then please show us how is comments are correct or can at least be argued.

I'm not sure why you are so worked up. All I said is gaf is a poor place for a good debate and in my opinion it is. It is a much better cheer leading section.

 

[Goliath]

Woah ... woah ... I'm not saying Obama hasn't had nuanced comments, or that Guillani is right. I meant it would be nice to discuss some of the problems in lower economic communities, etc. that he's pointing to.

I didn't realize that 'Cosby, before his public image was tarnished with a slew of rape allegations, had spoken frequently and often in blunt terms about how African-Americans needed to focus more on education, be better parents and avoid lives of crime.' as stated in the OP was considered a cut and dry non-starter.

Apparently this isn't the thread to bring it up in, and everyone is going to assume I'm racist.

Obama has made many speeches about the value of education, family values, eating healthy etc. He has spoken directly to Black America about these topics as well. The problem with Guillani's comment is that he wants to blame all of African American's problems on their "lazy", "criminal behavior".

This is an old arguement. How many studies have to come out showing that an African American with a college degree is passed over for a White American with a criminal record for lower wage job. Or that people of color's skin tone can affect how "intelligent" some people consider them. Or that even an African American name can disway potential interviews. Meanwhile African Americans do get plenty of attention from police officers who target and profile them.

Guillani has no point because people like him want to ignore the obvious signs and impacts of institutionalized racism. Instead of trying to fix a broken system that favors whites over other minorities he would rather blame the minorities for not trying hard enough. And his best example is a famous comedian who might have been a rapist for decades!?

 

[Fenderputty]

So you (generally speaking) can dance around it. Only I'm not allowed to. Got it.



.

Start the debate. I won't dance.

EDIT: I'm thinking you didn't actually disagree with anyone in here but just wanted to play the "Poor Republican on Liberal GAF card"

 

[Domcorleone]

I'm sorry for breaking up your "lol Republican" party. I'll see my way to the gaming side.

In other words you want to run away from the discussion because you have no argument to make. Go on ahead to the gaming side and save face.

Next time, try to have more than a well known stat to throw out. Explain to me why Rudy's comments don't deserve dismissal. I'll wait.

 

[Blader]

So I only get to pick option A. or B? It can't be a much more nuanced problem in society that has been building since the handicapping of the slavery days?

If by nuanced problem endemic to society since slavery days you mean institutional racism, then that's already covered in option A.

 

[m_shortpants]

Read as: "guys don't pay attention to the institutional level disadvantages of not being white in the US, it's actually your own faults"

 

[Paskil]

The really irritating thing about this dialogue is that outsiders to the community assume it hasn't been continuously addressed and reinforced within our ranks. It's just a continuous repeat of "y'all is y'all own enemy." As to say this is what Obama should do but then again if it became a directed political goal of his to focus on Black groups, The story would just flip again and pundits would claim Obama only wants to focus on his "own people" and not America.

Seems to be somewhat a catch-22 no matter what occurs.

Nah, the actual response from the right usually is along the lines of "The president only wants to divide us by bringing up race again and again. We are a post racial society."

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

What high crime rate?

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nyc-crime-rate-hits-lowest-mark-1994-article-1.2013028

http://nypost.com/2014/12/03/crime-rates-plummet-in-new-york-city/

I was talking about the high crime rate for minorities.

 

[DogMeat77]

Start the debate. I won't dance.

Everyone in this thread is dancing. Myself included. I already learned my lesson on discussing anything even remotely touchy on gaf. GAF is the fox news of forums and I was just pointing it out. That isn't even touchy yet people are already losing their ish because they detected someone that might not agree with them. It's okay, it really is.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Can't find a transcript and the podcast of the show isn't up yet. Presumably it will appear here later today or tomorrow.

But if Giuliani says that anybody but the NYPD is responsible for the reception Bratton is getting (boos, etc) he's just lying. It gets worse when he thinks black crime rates are tied to the amount (or lack) of genuflection towards the justice system observed in our black political leadership.

I'm not sure why you are so worked up. All I said is gaf is a poor place for a good debate and in my opinion it is. It is a much better cheer leading section.

Lead by example. Begin by yourself addressing the points Giuliani brought up this morning rather than the reaction to it.

 

[commedieu]

Everyone in this thread is dancing. Myself included. I already learned my lesson on discussing anything even remotely touchy on gaf. GAF is the fox news of forums and I was just pointing it out. That isn't even touchy yet people are already losing their ish because they detected someone that might not agree with them. It's okay, it really is.

Read as: "guys don't pay attention to the institutional level disadvantages of not being white in the US, it's actually your own faults"

.

 

[Fenderputty]

Everyone in this thread is dancing. Myself included. I already learned my lesson on discussing anything even remotely touchy on gaf. GAF is the fox news of forums and I was just pointing it out. That isn't even touchy yet people are already losing their ish because they detected someone that might not agree with them. It's okay, it really is.

Still playing the poor republican on GAF card. Plenty of people are trying to directly debate whatever it is you want to bring up.

 

[DogMeat77]

In other words you want to run away from the discussion because you have no argument to make. Go on ahead to the gaming side and save face.

Next time, try to have more than a well known stat to throw out. Explain to me why Rudy's comments don't deserve dismissal. I'll wait.

lol another example of what I'm talking about. If it isn't "lol republican" it should be dismissed. I think there are several things that could be a nice debate (probably not on GAF though). The first of which is his literal statement of should President Obama take a larger responsibility in addressing both the prejudice in our system as it pertains to African Americans. I don't personally believe because he is black and in-power that means he has to. Rudy seems to think he does. I'm sure a lot of people have a lot of opinions on this.

The 2nd is the discussion of is the root of the problem. It seems the popular opinion is that it is only caused by profiling and prejudice of the legal system. I can't believe that it is that simple.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Everyone in this thread is dancing. Myself included. I already learned my lesson on discussing anything even remotely touchy on gaf. GAF is the fox news of forums and I was just pointing it out. That isn't even touchy yet people are already losing their ish because they detected someone that might not agree with them. It's okay, it really is.

You learned your lesson alright, don't discuss anything touchy but show up in threads about touchy subjects and loudly proclaim everyone who disagrees with you to be shit. Don't forget to play the "beleaguered conservative in a liberal's world" card while you're at it, and you'll do swell.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Everyone in this thread is dancing. Myself included. I already learned my lesson on discussing anything even remotely touchy on gaf. GAF is the fox news of forums and I was just pointing it out. That isn't even touchy yet people are already losing their ish because they detected someone that might not agree with them. It's okay, it really is.

The Former DEA Agent: We Were Told Not to Enforce Drug Laws in Rich White Areas thread actually had some discussion on these same points:

That is naive

Some other data from 2010, I believe

There was a link to this: 15 Charts That Prove We're Far From Post-Racial

We also had the thread US Marshal Told By Supervisors Not to Bring the ‘War on Drugs’ to White Communities.

This issue isn't the data, for the most--it's the conclusions that Cosby and Giulani would draw from them.

 

[JDSN]

Not really shocking to see people that agree with the implicit argument of a black hivemind and Obama being its leader while complaining about an internet forum hivemind.

Everything is a hivemind when you see yourself as a victim.

 

[DocSeuss]

He's not wrong. Obama's journey into stand-up comedy has been somewhat disappointing so far, and I, for one, would like to see him up his game.

 

[Fury451]

I believe he's referring to things Cosby would advocate calling for family unity and responsibility in families, as well as caring for and raising children. I

That's a really awful way to phrase and example to choose to propose that though. It's a little dull of a message from Cosby now considering the allegations though.

 

[Timedog]

Way to not discuss his actual point and instead point and laugh at how shitty of a sound bite the quote is.

Silly gaf.

The point where since Obama is black, he must be the ringleader and black people, and should pull out his crack whip and shape these negroes up?

The point where it is expected that black people magically change in aggregate in some way because someone said some words that they've heard a million times already, instead of actually changing the environment for black people to elicit change. Because actually changing their environment would require giving something up.

The point where Guliani's party has shown itself time and time again to be anti-black, and has no grounds for criticism of how other parties/partisans handle black issues.

The point where Guliani personally continually spouts out racist bullshit and should stop talking about black people, period.

The point where Obama has continually attempted to help poor black people in actually tangible ways, but most of the time not accomplished this because of the obvious, overarching racial and class bias of the Republican Party?

Silly old, racist, white men.

 

[DogMeat77]

You learned your lesson alright, don't discuss anything touchy but show up in threads about touchy subjects and loudly proclaim everyone who disagrees with you to be shit. Don't forget to play the "beleaguered conservative in a liberal's world" card while you're at it, and you'll do swell.

You are an example of why I say gaf is a bad place for a debate. I haven't told anyone their opinion is shit. I'm actually interested in others opinions.

Start the debate. I won't dance.

EDIT: I'm thinking you didn't actually disagree with anyone in here but just wanted to play the "Poor Republican on Liberal GAF card"

I'm a registered democrat but I've come despite both parties equally. Kind of a bad place to reside politically.

EDIT: For full-disclosure I voted for Obama in the original primary. I voted against him in both actual elections.

 

[Fenderputty]

The first of which is his literal statement of should President Obama take a larger responsibility in addressing both the prejudice in our system as it pertains to African Americans. I don't personally believe because he is black and in-power that means he has to. Rudy seems to think he does. I'm sure a lot of people have a lot of opinions on this.

The 2nd is the discussion of is the root of the problem. It seems the popular opinion is that it is only caused by profiling and prejudice of the legal system. I can't believe that it is that simple.

1. I personally agree that's it's not right that because he's black he should address the issue more closely. He should be addressing the issue seriously regardless of skin color.

2. Since this has been a topic many times on GAF (even though you seem to think we're incapable of discussing serious issues) I'll post an already compiled list of information that would suggest it is, in fact, that simple.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=144264130&postcount=1

 

[Atlagev]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...ma-mcdonald-fight-shootings-article-1.2146983

I can't believe this guy was mayor of NY for so long. Once he stopped caring about PR and settled into being a professional speaker or whatever he has really said some off the wall shit.

Obama has actually talked about this issue in almost the exact terms Giuliani has talked about! Just one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj1hCDjwG6M

 

[TheOohChild]

Everyone in this thread is dancing. Myself included. I already learned my lesson on discussing anything even remotely touchy on gaf. GAF is the fox news of forums and I was just pointing it out. That isn't even touchy yet people are already losing their ish because they detected someone that might not agree with them. It's okay, it really is.

I have no dissenting opinion to offer on this thread topic, but I just got back from a two week "vacation" myself. Lesson learned.

 

[Domcorleone]

lol another example of what I'm talking about. If it isn't "lol republican" it should be dismissed. I think there are several things that could be a nice debate (probably not on GAF though). The first of which is his literal statement of should President Obama take a larger responsibility in addressing both the prejudice in our system as it pertains to African Americans. I don't personally believe because he is black and in-power that means he has to. Rudy seems to think he does. I'm sure a lot of people have a lot of opinions on this.

The 2nd is the discussion of is the root of the problem. It seems the popular opinion is that it is only caused by profiling and prejudice of the legal system. I can't believe that it is that simple.

Do you know what my political affiliation is? Rudy's comments should be dismissed because he is being dismissive, reductive and ignorant in his statements. If a democrat, atheist, Republican made these comments I'd still have an opinion on them. Or can I not criticize/dismiss the mans statements without it being about his political ideology?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

You are an example of why I say gaf is a bad place for a debate. I haven't told anyone their opinion is shit. I'm actually interested in others opinions.

People have given their opinion; even outside the Bill Cosby stupidity, his point is not backed up by reality. Hell, that's not even an opinion, it's cold hard fact. The old "black folks is they own worst enemy" line is a dog-whistle, and it's even more offensive in this instance because it's being used to suggest that the president of the USA is somehow responsible for the problems faced by black people in his country because he's also black.

And you came into this thread banging the "typical GAF being a hivemind and a shitty place to debate", so I apologise if my inference from that was succinctly summed up as "you think everyone who disagrees with you is shit" but it's a perfectly valid interpretation.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

What he said is not as shocking as the author of the article wants you to think, but it does display some naivete when it comes to why crime rate is comparatively higher for blacks. I think its more of a result of socioeconomic status (and partially institutional racism) than it is the lack of family values-type stuff that Rudy is talking about. (although a good moral system certainly doesn't hurt)

And blaming government leaders for the specific crimes of others is stupid.

 

[BronsonLee]

Obama hates pudding pops though!

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I believe he's referring to things Cosby would advocate calling for family unity and responsibility in families, as well as caring for and raising children. I

That's a really awful way to phrase and example to choose to propose that though. It's a little dull of a message from Cosby now considering the allegations though.

It's also extremely tone-deaf to assume that the reasons why the average black family unit is in the shape it's currently in has anything to do with whether or not the president is on the stump shouting the same folksy one-liners that made Cosby famous.

"Hey, uh, black people. Take care of your kids. *chuckling"
Tomorrow's headline: Black family average income climbs an astonishing 500% in previous quarter. Incarceration rates plummet to historic lows. Blacks now 12% of hires at every single Fortune 500 company. Larry Wilmore named CEO of Apple.

And of course the context of Giuliani's comments is to stand up for the NYPD, an organization with a well documented history of being a direct force that decimates black families. No amount of 'keep your family together, black dudes' is going to rescue the many thousands of black families from the abuses of a justice system that is designed to incarcerate and kill them at insane rates.

 

[captive]

The right really loves them some Cosby. I remember someone trying to tell me that Bill OReily and Cosby knew better and had better ideas about the black community and solving the racial problems in America than people like Tim Wise.

 

[Blader]

Everyone in this thread is dancing. Myself included. I already learned my lesson on discussing anything even remotely touchy on gaf. GAF is the fox news of forums and I was just pointing it out. That isn't even touchy yet people are already losing their ish because they detected someone that might not agree with them. It's okay, it really is.

But you haven't even said that; you haven't even presented a counter-argument, just "I don't think institutional racism can be 100 percent to blame, but don't know what else is or why that would be." That's not a contrary opinion, it's nothing.

No one cares that you're a Republican, no one cares about your voting record, that doesn't mean anything. The only meaningful thing you can bring to a debate is an opinion and the evidence to back it up, and you don't seem to have much of the former and none of the latter except some already widely known stats.

 

[Lowmelody]

lol another example of what I'm talking about. If it isn't "lol republican" it should be dismissed. I think there are several things that could be a nice debate (probably not on GAF though). The first of which is his literal statement of should President Obama take a larger responsibility in addressing both the prejudice in our system as it pertains to African Americans. I don't personally believe because he is black and in-power that means he has to. Rudy seems to think he does. I'm sure a lot of people have a lot of opinions on this.

The 2nd is the discussion of is the root of the problem. It seems the popular opinion is that it is only caused by profiling and prejudice of the legal system. I can't believe that it is that simple.

Time. Time is the answer to your postulate. The "profiling and prejudice of the legal system" as you put it has been suppressing black people before the birth of the country and the result of time and oppression means every black family during and after started further and further behind during the rise of a civilization white people could feast and thrive on. Their kids thrived and their kids and so on. Everything in and about this country was carved up and claimed before black people were even people. That doesn't just go away. It grows, festers and multiplies and none of it is new. It's historical inertia that cannot be canceled by suddenly (and grudgingly) admitting they are people and bestowing upon them the most basic of rights. It will take generations to repair this and in the mean time we are in this quagmire of shit our white forefathers shat out for us.

 

[Suite Pee]

Respectability politics need to fucking die already.

 

[JadedWriter]

Can somebody please staple this man's mouth shut for the good of humanity.

 

[Oblivion]

Who the hell started calling him "America's Mayor" anyway?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Why can't Black men be like Will Smith during the Fresh Prince era?

Why can't Black women be like Lisa Turtle?

Spoiler

:|

 

[NervousXtian]

Yeah Rudy, tell black people just to stop committing crimes.. that'll work.

please go on, tell us more Rudy.

continue to tell us how racist you are.

what a piece of shit.

 

[Fury451]

It's also extremely tone-deaf to assume that the reasons why the average black family unit is in the shape it's currently in has anything to do with whether or not the president is on the stump shouting the same folksy one-liners that made Cosby famous.

"Hey, uh, black people. Take care of your kids. *chuckling"
Tomorrow's headline: Black family average income climbs an astonishing 500% in previous quarter. Incarceration rates plummet to historic lows. Blacks now 12% of hires at every single Fortune 500 company. Larry Wilmore named CEO of Apple.

And of course the context of Giuliani's comments is to stand up for the NYPD, an organization with a well documented history of being a direct force that decimates black families. No amount of 'keep your family together, black dudes' is going to rescue the many thousands of black families from the abuses of a justice system that is designed to incarcerate and kill them at insane rates.

I don't disagree, was outlining what he was likely referring to. There's stuff that's a lot deeper and more complex than any politicians seem to realize or care to address. The president could say positive things every week and stuff would still be a mess because it's so deep rooted in a history of inequality.

 

[commedieu]

it just baffles me that people can have such skewed views of the issues here, enough to double down on it, without even knowing the other side. When you have the other side willing to tell all the details, with charts and everything. Still, the double down continues. People just assume black people are complaining about nothing, then they want to tell them how it is. Is it some form of paternalism? That black people simply can't understand what is good for them..? The blinders just go up, and nothing positive comes out of the exchange.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Who the hell started calling him "America's Mayor" anyway?

The Republican party have been looking for a new living legend to lionise since Reagan died, and well... Rudy did save America after 9/11.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

it just baffles me that people can have such skewed views of the issues here, enough to double down on it, without even knowing the other side. When you have the other side willing to tell all the details, with charts and everything. Still, the double down continues. People just assume black people are complaining about nothing, then they want to tell them how it is. Is it some form of paternalism? That black people simply can't understand what is good for them..? The blinders just go up, and nothing positive comes out of the exchange.

This is what happens when you have a piece of shit pandering to racists who want to preserve the status quo.

And it's a valid political strategy which has been happening in alarming frequency since the black guy was elected President.

 

[Fenderputty]

it just baffles me that people can have such skewed views of the issues here, enough to double down on it, without even knowing the other side. When you have the other side willing to tell all the details, with charts and everything. Still, the double down continues. People just assume black people are complaining about nothing, then they want to tell them how it is. Is it some form of paternalism? That black people simply can't understand what is good for them..? The blinders just go up, and nothing positive comes out of the exchange.

He was made a martyr before he could un-baffle you.

 

[Verelios]

Fuck Giuliani. Piece of shit in the 90's, still a piece of shit now.

Can't believe we put up with him for so long.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

it just baffles me that people can have such skewed views of the issues here, enough to double down on it, without even knowing the other side. When you have the other side willing to tell all the details, with charts and everything. Still, the double down continues. People just assume black people are complaining about nothing, then they want to tell them how it is. Is it some form of paternalism? That black people simply can't understand what is good for them..? The blinders just go up, and nothing positive comes out of the exchange.

It is absolutely paternalism. It's the wildest thing because there is a complete disconnection between the situation and the bigger problem is it is lazy grouping. "Black people need to..." I'm sorry, I (ryutaro's mama) am Black too...what exactly do I need to do? Oh right, to people like Giuliani, we are all a part of the same group. We are all assigned the same stereotype of the most negative aspects of our community. It's easier that way. No thought needed.

People that are content to live in their bubble where "they made all the correct choices, so why can't they?" have the privilege of not having to deal with the extenuating circumstances associated with people that happen to be of color and live in impoverished situations. "Why can't you just pull yourself up by your boot straps? I did." Well, there was time when, no matter how hard someone worked, they could not move certain places because they didn't rent/sell to PoC. Employ PoC. And the law protected their ability to continue those kinds of practices. Most Fair Employment and Housing Acts weren't adopted (at the State level) until the late 50s, early 60s. Even then, unfair practices didn't go away overnight.

So if we can accept that wealth and privilege (see: Paris Hilton) can be passed down, generational, somehow the opposite isn't also true? A group that has been disenfranchised, zoned into worse living areas, and treated as second class citizens as recent as less than 50 years ago, somehow need to "get it together like Bill Cosby"?

People like Guiliani would rather stick their fingers in their ears and act like everything is now equal. It's better but hardly equal and we are only 4-5 generations removed from slavery. Think about that.

I am not saying that certain people shouldn't do better or are somehow free of personal responsibility. PEOPLE SHOULD ALWAYS STRIVE TO BE BETTER. No, I am saying stop looking at the issues and ignoring the shit that got us to where we are in the first place.

 

[Damaniel]

A hint to racists: it ceases to be a dog whistle when it sounds like a megaphone. 9iu11ani needs to STFU and go back to chanting '9/11' all day long; it's what he knows best, after all.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

Only a matter of time until Giuliani goes full out racist.

I mean, makes it obvious to even fox news .

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Only a matter of time until Giuliani goes full out racist.

I mean, makes it obvious to even fox news .

Fox would blame hip hop music.

I wish I were kidding. Morning Joe showed the blueprint.

https://youtu.be/A6TNNlGbsjM?t=4m45s

 

[Gentleman Jack]

The president could say positive things every week.

The irony is that this is exactly what every president does.

Problem is Rudy doesn't care and he's happy to spread the notion that the President doesn't shepherd the souls of black folk down the righteous path set by the fine people at the NYPD. He wants to ensure that the party line that 'the president isn't American like you or me *wink wink*' stays in the consciousness of the red blooded citizens listening to AM 970, The Answer.