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[Mr-Joker]

I suspected that Takamaru was initially planned as playable as a music from his game is in the game but got the boot for some reason, just didn't think it would be the most stupidest reason ever.

Gutted that he isn't playable. *sigh* Looks like I am gonna have to wait for Smash 5 for playable Wonder Red, Takamaru, and Saki.

 

[PhilipDoesMatter]

It was just a brainstorming.

 

[Zalman]

Takamaru is still less weird than both Ice climbers and ROB considering his game is great and theirs are pretty bad.

Those were at least known worldwide. Can't say the same thing for Takamaru.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Takamaru's stage would have been awesome. Fighting on an old school Japanese castle.

Oh man.

 

[Azure J]

Popular podcasts talked endless shit about how Smash is fucked because there's no new Nintendo characters so they had to resort to Robin and Shulk.

I can't imagine Takemaru would be on the same level of "I don't know who that is," it would probably be worse.

It was actually really shocking to me how much of an air of disdain people had for potentials going into Smash 4 because they would all be "circling the drain/bottom of the barrel" picks in their eyes. It's so funny too, it's like a reflection of the whole "Nintendo don't make new IPs/use old IPs enough - > these IPs aren't 'Nintendo' enough" fallacy in the form of who gets billing or not. Then people get upset when another Mario or Pokemon character jumps in.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Popular podcasts talked endless shit about how Smash is fucked because there's no new Nintendo characters so they had to resort to Robin and Shulk.

I can't imagine Takemaru would be on the same level of "I don't know who that is," it would probably be worse.

I remember hearing about these during prerelease, and my response now is the same as it was then:

If you think that Smash is fucked because Sakurai had to "resort" to Robin and Shulk, then you're a know-nothing fuck who should probably not be hosting a podcast, or at least should not be talking about Smash.

I think now everyone is over their weird little "obscure to me so it's a dumb idea" fits. Smash has a way of endearing people to characters.

This is anecdotal, but my roommate went through this exact cycle. When Robin and Shulk were released, he sorta turned up his nose, but after he started playing them in Smash, he expressed interest in playing both Xenoblade and FE:A because of it (I happen to have both and he's playing Awakening right now and loving it).

Those were at least known worldwide. Can't say the same thing for Takamaru.

I don't know that I would consider the Ice Climbers particularly notable. Sure, their game was released worldwide and Takamaru's wasn't, but there was still a general air of "huh?" when they were announced for Melee. And now look, even though they didn't get a new game out of being in Smash, they as a character still have a following that's much larger than what it was pre-Smash (just look at people upset at them being cut from Smash 4, me included).

 

[Jezan]

Meh, "lack of familiarity" should hardly be an issue for a Smash character, seeing as Smash is a huge franchise itself.

Yes, specially after how Smash added Fire Emblem to the western map! Also probably Earthbound.

 

[JazzmanZ]

It was actually really shocking to me how much of an air of disdain people had for potentials going into Smash 4 because they would all be "circling the drain/bottom of the barrel" picks in their eyes. It's so funny too, it's like a reflection of the whole "Nintendo don't make new IPs/use old IPs enough - > these IPs aren't 'Nintendo' enough" fallacy in the form of who gets billing or not. Then people get upset when another Mario or Pokemon character jumps in.

You think Smash 5 will add someone from Project STEAM and Splatoon without fans getting in a hissy fit?

 

[Starfish Hero]

Yeah, it's a real mystery why Sakurai would include one of Nintendo's most notable franchises to Japanese gamers in Smash. lolFireEmblem amirite

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Sakurai has a well-known bias against Japanese games.

That's why the majority of characters in Smash are all white Europeans/Americans.

 

[HUELEN10]

Oh what the fuck Sakurai.


In before "lolz should have been in before Dark Pit/Lucina/Dr.Mario" without having any thought on why and how clones are added.

Ok, I'll bite; why and how are clones added?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yeah, it's a real mystery why Sakurai would include one of Nintendo's most notable franchises to Japanese gamers in Smash. lolFireEmblem amirite

The Fire Emblem comparisons are kind of off base.

I think Lucas is a more apt comparison honestly. Relatively obscure Japanese only character.

 

[Weetrick]

Sakurai has a well-known bias against Japanese games.

That's why the majority of characters in Smash are all white Europeans/Americans.

lol is this a meme I don't know about?

 

[GiantBreadbug]

The Fire Emblem comparisons are kind of off base.

I think Lucas is a more apt comparison honestly. Relatively obscure Japanese only character.

I don't think they are just because look at FE in the west pre-Melee. Sure, now it's popular, but it sure as hell wasn't just a short while ago.

But I do agree Lucas is a good example.

 

[chaosblade]

Ok, I'll bite; why and how are clones added?

They require a lot less effort than an original/non-clone character. Sakurai has said to basically think of them as a "bonus."

For Melee, he basically chose between adding a single additional unique character (Dedede, IIRC) and all 6 clones, and opted for the 6 clones instead. It's hard to imagine a world where Ganondorf wasn't introduced until Brawl, and Falco was never in Smash!

 

[Merc_]

As if there wasn't enough bitching about blue haired swordsmen(woman) in the game.

 

[Azure J]

You think Smash 5 will add someone from Project STEAM and Splatoon without fans getting in a hissy fit?

I think Inklings are the most insta locked a character can be for the next Smash (I'm talking first or second trailer tier lock here a la Villager). Look at how many people are clamoring for them to be DLC for 4. The overall positive reception to them from last E3 was pretty serious. Codename S.T.E.A.M stuff is all dependent on the reception of the game. All because its IntSys in a post worldwide Fire Emblem market doesn't mean they're getting a first string entrance. You can ask Advance Wars for more on that.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't think they are just because look at FE in the west pre-Melee. Sure, now it's popular, but it sure as hell wasn't just a short while ago.

But I do agree Lucas is a good example.

NOA was actually, at one point, considering removing Marth and Roy from the english version of Melee. But they got the game so late and it needed to come out for Christmas that they didn't have time to do it.

And thank god they didn't.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Azure J, post if your ok

 

[Zalman]

The Fire Emblem comparisons are kind of off base.

I think Lucas is a more apt comparison honestly. Relatively obscure Japanese only character.

Lucas is for the most part a clone and required less effort to put into the game. I don't think that's a very good example either.

 

[Ryce]

Yeah, it's a real mystery why Sakurai would include one of Nintendo's most notable franchises to Japanese gamers in Smash. lolFireEmblem amirite

Murasame Castle is not a "notable franchise to Japanese gamers." It sold pretty poorly over there and it never received a sequel. Only hardcore Japanese Nintendo fans know what the game is. Hell, Takamaru didn't get a single request in the Japanese Melee newcomer survey. On the other hand, Fire Emblem has always been fairly popular in Japan, and it was on its sixth installment by the time Marth was included in Melee.

For the record, I think Takamaru should be playable, but his game is in no way comparable to Fire Emblem.

 

[AmethystEnd]

Welp. Misread name as "Takamura".

Got excited for nothing.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Wouldn't be surprised to see him in Smash 5 as '80s rep like Ice Climbers in Melee, Pit in Brawl and Little Mac in 3DS/U

Little Mac? You mean Duck Hunt.

 

[FSLink]

Ok, I'll bite; why and how are clones added?

They're a (relatively) quick and easy character to make based off of existing assets.
The argument that people like to give that it "took x's slot" is silly since they took little dev time, and are essentially extras. We'd either get them or we wouldn't get them at all.

They also offer different playstyles even with the slight stat changes...though it can be argued that these round of clones are the worst in the series so far due to Lucina being literally a worse Marth, and Pit/Dark Pit only having 3 differences in moves.

Murasame Castle is not a "notable franchise to Japanese gamers." It sold pretty poorly over there and it never received a sequel. Only hardcore Japanese Nintendo fans know what the game is. Hell, Takamaru didn't get a single request in the Japanese Melee newcomer survey. On the other hand, Fire Emblem has always been fairly popular in Japan, and it was on its sixth installment by the time Marth was included in Melee.

For the record, I think Takamaru should be playable, but his game is in no way comparable to Fire Emblem.

/nitpick You mean 5th. 6th game (with Roy) came out after Melee's Japanese release.

 

[Azure J]

NOA was actually, at one point, considering removing Marth and Roy from the english version of Melee. But they got the game so late and it needed to come out for Christmas that they didn't have time to do it.

And thank god they didn't.

I honestly don't know whether or not I'd be as invested in Smash, the competitive Smash scene and the competitive fighting game scene as a whole if it weren't for the inclusion of Marth in Melee. Not to mention that whole missing out on Fire Emblem in the states thing as well.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I don't think they are just because look at FE in the west pre-Melee. Sure, now it's popular, but it sure as hell wasn't just a short while ago.

But I do agree Lucas is a good example.

But Takamaru is even niche in Japan. He hasn't gotten a new game in almost 30 years. He's like Duck Hunt dog and Little Mac except only in one country. Without even coming to America, FE was big enough to get in Smash without question. Mysterious Murasame Castle is not Fire Emblem and isn't in the position FE was in, even before Melee.

The Fire Emblem series was anything but obscure in Japan. It was still healthy, getting games and Marth was ultra popular.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

NOA was actually, at one point, considering removing Marth and Roy from the english version of Melee. But they got the game so late and it needed to come out for Christmas that they didn't have time to do it.

And thank god they didn't.

I remember hearing about that, and I couldn't agree more. I for one know I only gave Fire Emblem a chance because of Marth and Roy. As silly as that sounds, Smash has introduced me to lots of series.

Still think how Roy was handled was kinda silly, seeing as how he was a promotion for a game not even out yet, but that's neither here nor there. Still like Roy as a character though.

 

[WonderRade]

I can see this... There was something about takamaru's reveal that made him seem like he had gotten extra consideration

 

[Karsticles]

NOA was actually, at one point, considering removing Marth and Roy from the english version of Melee. But they got the game so late and it needed to come out for Christmas that they didn't have time to do it.

And thank god they didn't.

Only NOA.

 

[chaosblade]

They're a (relatively) quick and easy character to make based off of existing assets.
The argument that people like to give that it "took x's slot" is silly since they took little dev time, and are essentially extras. We'd either get them or we wouldn't get them at all.

They also offer different playstyles even with the slight stat changes...though it can be argued that these round of clones are the worst in the series so far due to Lucina being literally a worse Marth, and Pit/Dark Pit only having 3 differences in moves.

I haven't really followed Smash 4 much, but Doc also seemed like an all-around worse Mario without customs. With customs, he's saved somewhat.

I remember hearing about that, and I couldn't agree more. I for one know I only gave Fire Emblem a chance because of Marth and Roy. As silly as that sounds, Smash has introduced me to lots of series.

Still think how Roy was handled was kinda silly, seeing as how he was a promotion for a game not even out yet, but that's neither here nor there. Still like Roy as a character though.

Yeah, I discovered FE through Smash and it is/was one of my favorite Nintendo series. Might change post-Awakening, we'll see...

Regarding the bolded though, I can only assume you mean as a Smash character and not as a Fire Emblem one? ;D

 

[Azure J]

Murasame Castle is not a "notable franchise to Japanese gamers." It sold pretty poorly over there and it never received a sequel. Only hardcore Japanese Nintendo fans know what the game is. Hell, Takamaru didn't get a single request in the Japanese Melee newcomer survey. On the other hand, Fire Emblem has always been fairly popular in Japan, and it was on its sixth installment by the time Marth was included in Melee.

For the record, I think Takamaru should be playable, but his game is in no way comparable to Fire Emblem.

Woah, this goes against a lot of old knowledge I remember getting between pre-Brawl and now. Takamaru was actually mentioned by name on the Melee Dojo site where Sakurai mentioned he wanted to/would think about including him if the character received a new title/renewed interest when a fan wrote in a question asking about him and Lip IIRC. In the Brawl Dojo votes, he was only beaten by things like Ridley/K. Rool/Dixie/Megaman topping the charts 3 times to their 4+ times.

I do agree with your general point though, Takamaru is one of those characters who has the wrong type of obscurity and only enters conversations because he's remembered by older staff in Nintendo.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

But Takamaru is even niche in Japan. He hasn't gotten a new game in 20 years. He's like Duck Hunt dog and Little Mac except only in one country. Without even coming to America, FE was big enough to get in Smash without question. Mysterious Murasame Castle is not Fire Emblem and isn't in the position FE was in, even before Melee.

The Fire Emblem series was anything buy obscure in Japan. It was still healthy, getting games and Marth was ultra popular.

Fair points, but I still don't jive with the idea that there's a character "too obscure" for Smash. I think if Sakurai has a vision for how the character can play, and the series it represents has at least some place in Nintendo's legacy, then it's a good fit. But also look at how Alberto pointed out above that NA was considering removing FE characters from Melee. That shows that they had no confidence that there would be any endearment to those characters, which wound up being very untrue.

And obviously Nintendo doesn't hate Takamaru. They gave him a shoutout in Nintendo Land, plus he's had cameos here and there.

 

[Hero Prinny]

Seems like a silly reason not to put him in a game when you got characters like pit, game and watch, shulk, etc. Don't get me wrong, I like those characters but they're not what I'd call well known

 

[Tripon]

Popular podcasts talked endless shit about how Smash is fucked because there's no new Nintendo characters so they had to resort to Robin and Shulk.

I can't imagine Takemaru would be on the same level of "I don't know who that is," it would probably be worse.

Smash 4 also included Miis which was part of the biggest Nintendo franchise since Mario, and people still don't like them.

 

[Muzy72]

Why do people keep comparing Little Mac to Ice Climbers/Duck Hunt/etc? Did you guys forget about Punch Out on Wii in 2009?

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Yeah, I discovered FE through Smash and it is/was one of my favorite Nintendo series. Might change post-Awakening, we'll see...

Regarding the bolded though, I can only assume you mean as a Smash character and not as a Fire Emblem one? ;D

Haha, yeah I mean the Smash one. I do dig his Awakening art what I've seen/read of his game though.

 

[Hero Prinny]

Why do people keep comparing Little Mac to Ice Climbers/Duck Hunt/etc? Did you guys forget about Punch Out on Wii in 2009?

Doesn't matter that he had a game in 09, the point still stands.

 

[Draxal]

I don't think they are just because look at FE in the west pre-Melee. Sure, now it's popular, but it sure as hell wasn't just a short while ago.

But I do agree Lucas is a good example.

Fire Emblem 3 (the first snes game) sold about about 700-800 thousand copies in Japan. Awakening was popular, but the early Fire Emblem SNES games sold really really well in Japan comaparison to Murasame's castle.

Yeah, I discovered FE through Smash and it is/was one of my favorite Nintendo series. Might change post-Awakening, we'll see...

Regarding the bolded though, I can only assume you mean as a Smash character and not as a Fire Emblem one? ;D

The comparison doesn't work because Fire Emblem was much much bigger in Japan compared to Murasame's castle.

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

Pretty stupid reason given what happened with Roy and Marths inclusion in Melee.

Yeah, and Pit in Brawl. Marth and Roy's presence in Melee helped the Fire Emblem franchise take off in the West, and Pit's presence in Brawl was probably the reason Kid Icarus: Uprising was given the go-ahead.

Plus, Ice Climbers were introduced in Melee, even though they had only ever starred in one game that was incredibly old/niche. If they could make it into a game with a roster of just 25 characters, I don't see why Takamaru couldn't be in a game with a roster of 49.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Fire Emblem 3 (the first snes game) sold about about 700-800 thousand copies in Japan. Awakening was popular, but the early Fire Emblem SNES games sold really really well in Japan comaparison to Takamaru's castle.



The comparison doesn't work because Fire Emblem was much much bigger in Japan compared to Takamaru's castle.

Of course, but I'm talking about FE's popularity in the west. Like, it was pretty much completely unknown before Melee.

My argument here is really more that Smash can take a series that's super obscure to any particular fanbase and make them at least semi-popular.

 

[Bulzeeb]

See Marth/Roy when Melee came out

but unlike FE, the series has been death for a long time, even in Japan.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Of course, but I'm talking about FE's popularity in the west. Like, it was pretty much completely unknown before Melee.

My argument here is really more that Smash can take a series that's super obscure to any particular fanbase and make them at least semi-popular.

I suspect this was the plan with Shulk, actually.

There may be some consciousness of how many of those you can cram into one game.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Murasame Castle is not a "notable franchise to Japanese gamers." It sold pretty poorly over there and it never received a sequel. Only hardcore Japanese Nintendo fans know what the game is. Hell, Takamaru didn't get a single request in the Japanese Melee newcomer survey. On the other hand, Fire Emblem has always been fairly popular in Japan, and it was on its sixth installment by the time Marth was included in Melee.

For the record, I think Takamaru should be playable, but his game is in no way comparable to Fire Emblem.

You misread his post, he's pointing out the absurdity in people comparing Fire Emblem with Murasame.

 

[JediLink]

That and I got fucking robbed of my iaijutsu character two times in a row for Smash. Totally sad right now.

Lyn in PM tho. The dream is still real.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Doesn't matter that he had a game in 09, the point still stands.

uhh lil mac's entire existence in smash 4 is based off his 2009 punch out wii, what is this "doesnt matter" shit

 

[entremet]

They were still making FE games when Roy/Marth came over.

I don't get the comparison to Takamaru.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Kid Icarus may have had two games and been released in the West but I doubt a significant number of the fanbase knew about him either.

Three games.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Edit: This logic makes NO fucking sense when this is the series that made a large part of the Nintendo fanbase aware of what the fuck Fire Emblem was. That and I got fucking robbed of my iaijutsu character two times in a row for Smash. Totally sad right now.

TBF Takamaru only had one game. Fire Emblem had, like, five when Melee came out.

 

[Zalman]

It's all about prioritizing. If they had unlimited resources, of course he'd be in the game. But they didn't. Every single one of the characters that got in, not counting the clones, are a better fit than Takamaru for various reasons.

This doesn't mean he will never become playable. If he gets a new game, then I'm sure he'll be one of the first on their list. As of right now, there are plenty of other characters to choose from.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Lucas is for the most part a clone and required less effort to put into the game. I don't think that's a very good example either.

Unlike Doc, Lucina and DP, Lucas has completely different animations. (On top of having a completely different design from Ness) The concept was laid out by Ness but I don't think he required considerably less effort. Wasn't he decided on before Mother 3's release anyway?

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

The comparison doesn't work because Fire Emblem was much much bigger in Japan compared to Murasame's castle.

Actually, it's an apt comparison because Roy and Marth were nearly removed from the western release of Melee due to concern that nobody would know who they were, but the localisation team decided to leave them in. As a result, the Fire Emblem franchise gained traction in the west.