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Stop posting emulator screenshots when discussing graphics of older games

Remember that RGB is a standard output here in Europe, was fully supported by all TV sets in the 90s and the SNES and PSX outputted in RGB with the use of the standard SCART cable.

SNES might have outputted RGB, but was shipped with an RF cable at least in Finland. Similarly with PSX, it shipped with composite cables with SCART adapter and you needed to buy actual RGB cable to actually experience it in all it's glory (or to play imported games in non-black/white)

Hell PS2 shipped with composite cables.
 

Rich!

Member
SNES might have outputted RGB, but was shipped with an RF cable at least in Finland. Similarly with PSX, it shipped with composite cables with SCART adapter and you needed to buy actual RGB cable to actually experience it in all it's glory (or to play imported games in non-black/white)

Hell PS2 shipped with composite cables.

No different to how the X360 slim is shipped with a composite cable. You are going to get an HDMI cable for that, aren't you?

Back in the 90s if you knew what you were doing or was recommended to, you brought an RGB SCART cable with your console. Its what the game stores recommended and what the mags did too. I mean hell, my parents and myself were totally new to gaming and we still got an RGB cable with each console.

In america the situation was different. They had no option. But I sure as shit remember EB and GAME pushing RGB SCART cables with each purchase, specifically remembering the Gamecube launch day.
 

Recall

Member
No different to how the X360 slim is shipped with a composite cable. You are going to get an HDMI cable for that.

Back in the 90s if you knew what you were doing or was recommended to, you brought an RGB SCART cable with your console. Its what the game stores recommended and what the mags did too. I mean hell, my parents and myself were totally new to gaming and we still got an RGB cable with each console.

Yes! Yet when I bought a GameCube the store had no idea what a SCART cable was and just assumed the adapter in the box was the cable I was after. Quite a struggle explaining what I was after.
 

Rich!

Member
Yes! Yet when I bought a GameCube the store had no idea what a SCART cable was and just assumed the adapter in the box was the cable I was after. Quite a struggle explaining what I was after.

Haha I just edited my post to show an example of the opposite!
 
No different to how the X360 slim is shipped with a composite cable. You are going to get an HDMI cable for that, aren't you?

Back in the 90s if you knew what you were doing or was recommended to, you brought an RGB SCART cable with your console. Its what the game stores recommended and what the mags did too. I mean hell, my parents and myself were totally new to gaming and we still got an RGB cable with each console.

First time I ran into a need for RGB cables was after modding my PS1 in x-mas 1998 to play imported copy of Parasite Eve and like I said, it was black and white. I asked my older brother wassup and he explained the concept to me. I have never seen an RGB cable for SNES in person myself.

edit: but yeah, this is a bit offtopic. I am not asking your images to look like shit, I am asking you to think for a second "could this have looked this good back in 199X or 20XX"
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
First time I ran into a need for RGB cables was after modding my PS1 in x-mas 1998 to play imported copy of Parasite Eve and like I said, it was black and white. I asked my older brother wassup and he explained the concept to me. I have never seen an RGB cable for SNES in person myself.

edit: but yeah, this is a bit offtopic. I am not asking your images to look like shit, I am asking you to think for a second "could this have looked this good back in 19XX".
It was black and white because your TV didn't support 60hz.
Or are talking about something else.
 
I get your point, OP, but you have to look at practicality here. Even for people who have original hardware on hand, there isn't another great way to capture images to share online -- in most cases, off-screen photography is going to be awful, even for people with CRTs handy.

You basically get left with two practical options. One is to take unfiltered framegrabs from an emulator and integer-scale them with nearest-neighbor. That's how most people think of "pixel art" anyway so it won't weird anyone out to look at.

The other is to push everything through a high-quality filter like crt-easymode that can at least solidly approximate one way a game might have looked on an old CRT:

S0xhido.png

Yea I completely agree with OP, infact I don't even like emulators because they are not endorsed by the orginal creators of the game so I still feel like they're illegal in some way.

You... should maybe learn a little more about how laws work.

I hate CRT filters so damn much, it ruins the entire picture with how HEAVY it is in emulators.

Any emu worth its salt is using programmable shaders with tweakable parameters these days, and in general these are designed to be seen from a bit of distance. We've come a long way from the 1990s braindead scanlines in ZSNES.
 
I love games and want them to look their best. If I am showing off a game I like, I want it to look it's best too.

If that means that I'm showing you Xenoblade Chronicles on Dolphin.. then.. okay.

Just as long as I'm not saying: "Why doesn't Xenoblade Chronicles 3D look as good as this increased resolution thing I'm running on my PC."

OR if I'm not saying that I'm showing you an emulated and improved feed of a game.

That would be just silly.
 

Timu

Member
This isn't really a realistic request. Probably not for the reason you're thinking either. The primary reason is due to the fact that if they are scaled down to their original rendering resolutions, you can't make out many fine details one way or another regardless of how long you sit and stare at them.

The rendering resolution of an NES is 256 x 240. That is tiny given most modern screens are now 1920 x 1080.

If you want to discuss graphics, you have to be able to see them, and telling people to change their screen resolutions to 640 x 480 or 800 x 600 is even less realistic.
But scan doublers, video scalers and various capture cards can get NES games up to a res of 720x480 though...heck I even capture my SNES/GEN games around that res.

Hell here's an example of a NES game captured in 720x480 by a around 300 some bucks capture card.

smb33.png
 

dhonk

Member
No different to how the X360 slim is shipped with a composite cable. You are going to get an HDMI cable for that, aren't you?

Back in the 90s if you knew what you were doing or was recommended to, you brought an RGB SCART cable with your console. Its what the game stores recommended and what the mags did too. I mean hell, my parents and myself were totally new to gaming and we still got an RGB cable with each console.

In america the situation was different. They had no option. But I sure as shit remember EB and GAME pushing RGB SCART cables with each purchase, specifically remembering the Gamecube launch day.

As a US person during those times, Im jealous. On the other hand, theres the whole 50hz vs 60hz thing. Guess in the end I prefer that.
 
Unaltered, unfiltered image. A direct-screen capture of the software in it's original state. This kind of screenshot accurately displays games as they are meant to be seen, and not in the varied pool of CRT Monitors/Televisions, RF, RGB, Composite and so on cables and cords.

That's not how those games were meant to be seen, though. Any serious pixel artist took the effects of the CRT display into account while building assets and many games lose a lot of the depth and color grading effect when they're viewed flat.

And mostly this is a issue with 3D games

I definitely agree with you on the upscaling-emulator shots of PSX/N64/PS2 games; these often dramatically misrepresent how a game originally looked, and they also frequently suffer from incongruity issues when 3D assets scale up crisply while ultra-low-resolution 2D HUDs hang out awkwardly on top. There's something to be said for playing some games this way (Xenoblade and FF12 in HD are things of real beauty) but it's a terrible representation of what they truly looked like.
 
That's not how those games were meant to be seen, though. Any serious pixel artist took the effects of the CRT display into account while building assets and many games lose a lot of the depth and color grading effect when they're viewed flat.

This.

Which is why I love that I can make many of the Sega 3D Classics emulate that CRT "bubble" effect.
 

Madao

Member
My counter argument, photos from my CRT. Sony Trinitron 28" 4:3, consoles hooked up via RGB as is standard here in the UK:


jeXtee9mwSBJX.jpg


j30Q2aAah6rMQ.PNG



Remember that RGB is a standard output here in Europe, was fully supported by all TV sets in the 90s and the SNES and PSX outputted in RGB with the use of the standard SCART cable.

That fuzzy Zelda 2 example? Never experienced that. Ever. See those photos I posted? That's how I experienced games in the 90s.

for all the shit europe got back in the day, i'm jealous that all of you grew up with RGB while Americans had to grow up with composhit.

i felt a little weird when i learned that the visual upgrade from Component cables back in the GC days was just regular business for europeans with SCART cables.
 

Recall

Member
Haha I just edited my post to show an example of the opposite!

I had to seemingly fight to get my cable. I'm in the UK and got my GameCube from an EB I think before it became GAME. Maybe it's a store by store basis with how hard they push certain stuff :)
 
Which is why I love that I can make many of the Sega 3D Classics emulate that CRT "bubble" effect.

This is defintely an effect I think gets ramped up way too far in a lot of cases though. The curve effect on most people's CRTs was much subtler than a lot of shader implementations.
 
for all the shit europe got back in the day, i'm jealous that all of you grew up with RGB while Americans had to grow up with composhit.

i felt a little weird when i learned that the visual upgrade from Component cables back in the GC days was just regular business for europeans with SCART cables.

But like I said, at least in Finland the PS1 shipped with composite cables and a SCART adapter with missing pins, thus being able to output composite only:

Fake-scart-brkn.jpg
 
My counter argument, photos from my CRT. Sony Trinitron 28" 4:3, consoles hooked up via RGB as is standard here in the UK:

Remember that RGB is a standard output here in Europe, was fully supported by all TV sets in the 90s and the SNES and PSX outputted in RGB with the use of the standard SCART cable.

No RGB in North America always made me sad. Instead we had S-Video, which is about the closest there was to RGB before component ever became fully standardized.

For me though, I grew up with Atari 2600 games, on one of these:

And NES/ Master System and Genesis games were connected to my parents TV using old RF switch boxes. The SNES the first game console that I have ever used an S-Video connection with. I think I also had S-Video cables for the Sega Saturn, PS1 and N64 (actually, I remember using my SNES S-video cables for my N64). Plugging the Dreamcast into monitor with a VGA cable was amazing the first time that I used it.

But I grew up with playing games with fuzzy RF on old ass 70's era TV's as a kid, except for the 32 bit consoles and later SD consoles.


That's not how those games were meant to be seen, though. Any serious pixel artist took the effects of the CRT display into account while building assets and many games lose a lot of the depth and color grading effect when they're viewed flat.

This is true. Here is a great little documentary/ recruitment video from Sega of America circa 1993 showing a pixel artist at STI work on sprites for Comix Zone:

Part 2 (starts at the beginning of this video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M8RIc6Ek0Q
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCnaw07LaS0

And you can see that his development PC is connected to a CRT NTSC TV so he can view the sprites the way the players would see them while making edits.
 

Madao

Member
i guess in the end the 90s were a shitty era for video output from consoles no matter which side of the pond you were in.

edit: no wait, Japan had JP21 and 60Hz. they won that one. they always win. those bastards....
 

KiraXD

Member
Well i just got my old CRT back... im excited to get some old school consoles up on this thing. 27" Samsung Dyna-Flat with Component/RGB inputs...

ib27fJfqqvbrs4.jpg
 

gelf

Member
This only annoys me when games are being compared graphically and we get an emulator bullshot put up against a more accurate image of the time. Not all systems even have a decent emulator capable of producing a bullshot. Or even a decent emulator at all in the case of the original Xbox.
 

Theonik

Member
SNES might have outputted RGB, but was shipped with an RF cable at least in Finland. Similarly with PSX, it shipped with composite cables with SCART adapter and you needed to buy actual RGB cable to actually experience it in all it's glory (or to play imported games in non-black/white)

Hell PS2 shipped with composite cables.
PS3 and most Xbox 360s shipped with Composite. Don't mean we have to post all our screens in 480i.

Same here in Norway. Wasn't until my PS2 I bought a RGB cable and realised the difference.
For PS1, Composite is actually often better than RBG. The PS1 hardware was designed to utilise a variety of output tricks relying on limitations of composite signal.
 
But scan doublers, video scalers and various capture cards can get NES games up to a res of 720x480 though...heck I even capture my SNES/GEN games around that res.

Hell here's an example of a NES game captured in 720x480 by a around 300 some bucks capture card.

smb33.png

here's another

20150429_231644_zpsdn4ifjex.jpg


OG Hardware (slightly modified)
OG game cartridge
LED TV
upscaler
 

Viliger

Member
You can clearly see pixels here. It was taken from Samsung CRT with SCART, Sega Genesis, not MD, I might add (and I have no idea what are those scratches on the right, I don't see them without camera).
Composite gives fuzzy picture, it obviously can provide neat tricks, like transparency via pixel grid, the simplest example would be bushes in Sonic 2 on the first stage. But difference is night and day, believe me. Can't wait for RGB cable for my SFC.
What I really want is to play games like Shovel Knight and Freedom Planet on this TV. I even have old X1950GT, I believe, that has native S-Video output. But my PSU would probably bust if I try to hook it up.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I'm not sure how we can achieve what the OP seems to want. The only proper way to truly see the games as they were intended is to view them on a real CRT. Anything else is inaccurate to varying degrees.

I think this works well enough, though, and comes close to capturing the look of a real system without emulation.

zdnb.png
 
I'm not sure how we can achieve what the OP seems to want. The only proper way to truly see the games as they were intended is to view them on a real CRT. Anything else is inaccurate to varying degrees.

Okay, okay, I finally clarified the OP for those that tl/dr;

This is from a real CRT. Scanlines are rather accurate these days.

That shot is also from an angle from about 10 centimeters away.
 
I don't know why so many people insist that they didn't see scanlines on their CRT's back in the day.



This is from a real CRT. Scanlines are rather accurate these days.

Should they be as black as possible if one uses an emulator. It seems that changing they're percentage either turns them less or more black. From the screen you have posted they look completely black.

I remember seeing scanlines too, and not just in the arcades.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
I'm in agreement, especially when it's a thread comparing the graphics of older games. Show the game as it really was, not some false super clean image from a PC emulator.
 

Jaeger

Member
That's not how those games were meant to be seen, though. Any serious pixel artist took the effects of the CRT display into account while building assets and many games lose a lot of the depth and color grading effect when they're viewed flat.

Definitely. However I don't see the reason in general posting about business why any would want to purposely alter the images to replicate a look we are no longer restricted to when viewing these images. It's not necessary in the grand scheme. Now, if we are comparing games in a a sense and speaking specifically on graphics, then yes this becomes relevant.
 

pastrami

Member
There was a post on reddit that made it to the front page. It was a picture of an emulated Super Mario Galaxy, at high resolution and with a texture mod.

The caption? "Almost 8 years old yet still gorgeous." Yeah, the game didn't look like that 8 years ago and certainly not on original hardware. It's surprising that this practice doesn't get more hate considering how much hoopla there was around Microsoft showing the PC version of The Witcher 3 on their youtube channel.

Link for those who might want it: https://m.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/34tf05/almost_8_years_old_yet_still_gorgerous/
 
Here's a little comparison between a photo and MAME's HLSL shader. I realize that OP's talking more about 3D games and rendering polygonal games at much higher resolutions, but my point is just to show just how good and somewhat authentic CRT shaders can be.

Here's the photo of Street Fighter II on a CRT that Jaeger posted earlier:

crt102u9e.png



Here's the same photo with a superimposed MAME screenshot with the HLSL shader:

crt2jlutz.png



And here's that same screenshot with adjusted color levels and saturation in Photoshop. It's not a perfect fit but it's somewhat nearer to the original photo. You could probably tweak the shader in MAME (or probably any other emulator) to get a closer result. Not to mention that the photo is probably not representative of what the actual human eye sees, the CRT might also be showing the color a bit wrong (colder) etc.

crt3z1u75.png



I should probably try to take some screenshots from PS1 games in Retroarch or something and try to find photos for comparison, but I think these CRT shaders today are really awesome and much closer to the real thing, so I wouldn't mind seeing them for discussions on comparing graphics between those systems.
 
You should always post emulator screenshots. Games should be presented in the best way possible. In 2015 its completly irrelevant how a game looked in the 90s. If I play it today, the emulator represents what I'm going to get.

The only time when you care about original hardware is when having historical arguments.
 

eso76

Member
Okay, okay, I finally clarified the OP for those that tl/dr;



That shot is also from an angle from about 10 centimeters away.

true, but scanlines are always as 'tall' as pixels themselves and almost pitch black anyway, Not much you can do or get wrong about them.

The only thing most emulators omit to simulate is flickering, which probably made them stand out less when seen in person.
Also, you were probably playing those games from a much greater distance compared to emulators running on your pc monitor.
 

Dr. Buni

Member
Don't tell me what to do, OP. But I agree.
Yea I completely agree with OP, infact I don't even like emulators because they are not endorsed by the orginal creators of the game so I still feel like they're illegal in some way. It bugs me when people even talk about emulators because they should be playing the games on the original systems or not at all lol. Dunno why I feel this way about them because I know in the long run they are a good way of preserving games and they can make the games look better and sometimes even add features like online play....but it bugs me nonetheless haha.
What the fuck.
 
I'm ok with showing clean, nearest-neighbor integer-scaled screens for 2D games. Filters or increasing the internal rendering resolution for 3D games are a bit trickier. It's totally fine for casual display purposes, but it can warp the perception of those that aren't in the loop easily. Pastrami posted the Super Mario Galaxy thing on Reddit, which is a great example. A completely unrepresentative, emulated and potentially texture-modded version of the game is somehow being presented as evidence for how well a last generation game holds up. That said, we live in an age of bullshots and "photo modes", where this is pretty nebulous in general.

That's not how those games were meant to be seen, though. Any serious pixel artist took the effects of the CRT display into account while building assets and many games lose a lot of the depth and color grading effect when they're viewed flat.
While agree that "meant to be seen" can't apply it to the clean frame data like that, I don't entirely agree with "building assets around CRT displays" narrative. Most of the benefits come from your brain trying to interpret the information as if the CRT effects weren't there in the first place, with mixed results. Bad spriting or tiling practices can more easily covered up though when pixels are broken up, separated, and have scan lines introducing texture where there is none. In that sense it is beneficial as wearing dirty glasses. The amount of visual information is altered and distorted, and has noise.

I won't argue for or against the CRT's inherent limitations and quirks, as its appeal is subjective, but I honestly can't name a lot of commercial games that look consciously optimised around them. There was too much quality variance in the displays and connectors to even bother with that. 8 and 16-bit games had more important stuff to optimise around. For instance one of the reasons why in-game character designs and artwork could look so different at the time is partially because palettes were limited. Since colour-combinations had to be shared across character and tile objects, effort had to be made to break the illusion that this limit was there. For example in FF6 Strago, Gau, Gogo, and Relm share a single palette, as do Celes, Edgar, and Sabin (and is the reason why General Leo is a white dude in the overworld). Altering a colour had wide repercussions, since it would have to be a net benefit for all the assets that used it, for in all the situations the tile would be used in.

Either way, what works and what doesn't is a little subjective, and is best judged on a case-by-case basis. A good example of a game that looks a lot better on a CRT is Aladdin on the Mega Drive/Genesis. It can look quite sparse and inconsistent as is, but a CRT can help bridge the rougher areas with the polished areas. The end-result appears a lot more cohesive.
 

Sayad

Member
Unaltered, unfiltered image. A direct-screen capture of the software in it's original state. This kind of screenshot accurately displays games as they are meant to be seen, and not in the varied pool of CRT Monitors/Televisions, RF, RGB, Composite and so on cables and cords.
Pretty sure most of them were made with CRT flaws in mind, and how the game would look on CRT is how it was meant to be seen at the time, especially for an arcade games where the developers know exactly what type of CRT monitor it will be running on.
 

Junahu

Member
Some games weren't just viewed via CRT, many light gun games were intended to be played from a specific minimum distance away. Such arcade cabinets have their monitor lieing face-up, and the image it projects is reflected toward the player via a mirror.

we're never going to get 100% representation in screenhots for old systems, off-screen or otherwise. They rely far too much on the display hardware. Some fudging is bound to happen even with direct capture. It's just a question of what the thread is about
 

Tom_Cody

Member
Having just gotten into Gamecent CX recently, I have been reminded at just how different games look when when captured from a game system versus direct emulation. That show really hits the nostalgia note just right. The footage in the Ninja Gaiden episode looks just like I remember screenshots looking in old Nintendo Power issues.
 
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