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[charlequin]

I don't know why so many people insist that they didn't see scanlines on their CRT's back in the day.

I'd say half because most people had a poor quality signal that blurred out that kind of detail, and half because people hear "scanlines" and think of the hideous shit you got in emulators 10 years ago.

Quick quwstion, how did you get that sweet looking CRT effect on those screens?

It's a shader called crt-easymode (by NeoGAF poster Easymode!) applied in the multi-emulator system called RETROARCH. Thread here will get you all set up.

While agree that "meant to be seen" can't apply it to the clean frame data like that, I don't entirely agree with "building assets around CRT displays" narrative.

I don't really see how this is even in any dispute. People who worked on pixel art games back in the day tested their images on TVs (like in that Sega video linked upthread) and relied on the effect to give depth to images. Yes, displays varied quite a bit, but the general characteristics of CRT display on color, luminosity, and sharpness were pretty consistent, and their perceptual effect lines up with things artists would typically want (greater perception of depth, the mental insertion of fine details in places where it's only suggested by a few pixels, etc.)

Given that there was no method of display in 1985 that even came close to what a nearest-neighbor scaled-up shot looks like on an LCD today, I definitely don't think one can make the claim that it's how games were "supposed" to look.

 

[Theonik]

The weirdest part is that we are never going to be able to emulate the look and feel of how the graphics came across on CRTs unless you are looking at the native image on a CRT. The accurate representation of the original pixel art displayed on an LCD display would require taking an offscreen photo of the actual native image running on a CRT, namely a 480i scanline tv screen.

It's a weird requirement anyway because 'on a crt' could mean, pretty much any crt. Not all crts were created equal. This can be pretty funny to play around with in MAME's HLSL where you have people even emulating 'NeoGeo CRT if it was running in bad conditions for 20 years and was half-broke' for the 'real' feel.

Edit:

I'd say half because most people had a poor quality signal that blurred out that kind of detail, and half because people hear "scanlines" and think of the hideous shit you got in emulators 10 years ago.

Not so much the signal. Scanlines are literally the result of your CRT skipping half the lines of its normal scan. (240p itself is a sort of hack game hardware created exploiting the video standards of the time)
if your screen couldn't display the extra lines anyway you wouldn't see them so it depends on the pitch of your display. This is why some of the most gorgeous defined scanlines you see come from people who got Sony PVM broadcast monitors.

 

[mackattk]

If I am gonig to post a screenshot of a game on a thread, I will just google image search it. I don't have the time, and likely have sold the hardware, to connect the console, boot up the game, and take a screenshot either through a camera or capture card. Sorry OP, I am part of the problem.

 

[Rich!]

Anyhow, emulator screenshots can be accurate.

This is a photograph I just took for the Nintendo emulation thread (hence why it's a photo, not a screenshot) of Mario 64 running in retroarch at native 240p with a CRT filter:

And here is an example of the new pixel-accurate angrylion N64 shader:

Would you ever know that those shots were from an emulator?

 

[Madao]

Anyhow, emulator screenshots can be accurate.

This is a photograph I just took for the Nintendo emulation thread (hence why it's a photo, not a screenshot) of Mario 64 running in retroarch at native 240p with a CRT filter:

And here is an example of the new pixel-accurate angrylion N64 shader:

Would you ever know that those shots were from an emulator?

the small shots are definitely emulator. they look way too clean for actual N64 even if the pic was 320x240.

 

[Awakened]

It's true. For example if you play Chrono Trigger on a misconfigurated emulator, the moon doesn't look round:

The sad thing is ports of SNES games on the GBA and the DS also have the wrong aspect ratio. The moon is still egg-shaped in Chrono Trigger DS.

I used to take that example as gospel, but then you look at the pendulum on the title screen, which only looks like a circle at 8:7 ratio:

8:7

4:3

But in those same shots the logo looks like it was corrected for 4:3, since the o's look like circles at that aspect. I guess some of the game's artists designed for 4:3, while others did 8:7. I think the majority of SNES art has correct geometry at 8:7.

 

[Rich!]

the small shots are definitely emulator. they look way too clean for actual N64 even if the pic was 320x240.

really? These are photos I took from my real N64 on a CRT:

 

[enoki]

I still own a CRT. It's night and day.

Playing sub native res on a monitor is like being stabbed in the eyes by pixels.

I keep a nice Sony CRT specifically for my older consoles for this reason. It's so much easier on the eyes.

 

[Bancho]

This is a RGBNES on a CRT taken at a slight distance. You can have nice sharp image on a CRT with original hardware.

Emulators and CRT sharders are very advanced now and can really capture the characteristics of CRT very well.

 

[Robin64]

I don't think that just because a lot of people played old games with a shitty RF output on a poor TV we should make sure shots look like that. The example of the pixel-perfect shader for N64 above are excellent. The resolution is spot on, there's no filter, it's a clean image that you would expect from ideal N64 output conditions. Heck, images above prove that.

 

[charlequin]

Not so much the signal. Scanlines are literally the result of your CRT skipping half the lines of its normal scan.

What I meant was that instead of nice scanlines, on a crappy TV with an RF adapter all the other noise and distortion overwhelms them, so people might not really remember the scanlines as part of "what games looked like" on CRTs.

I don't think that just because a lot of people played old games with a shitty RF output on a poor TV we should make sure shots look like that.

I personally don't care for a lot of the destructive effects you can include in CRT shaders (NTSC color aberrations, barrel geometry, RF flickering, etc.) in normal circumstances. Playing with a sharper, less distorted filter can end up looking more like Bancho's photo up there, which probably doesn't simulate most people's actual childhood experience but does get close to the ideal that's possible today with original hardware.

 

[Mohasus]

So OP, you want the bottom image, not the top, right?

I think for the purpose of discussion, absolutely. For the purpose of playing, I'd rather have the antialiasing.

Is the bottom one captured from a N64? Both look like emulator shots to me.

 

[Rich!]

Is the bottom one captured from a N64? Both look like emulator shots to me.

They are. And even then, the bottom shot isn't 240p. My emulator shot here is:

 

[Harlock]

What are the best NES/Snes/Genesis emulators to do scanlines and other CRT effects close to original?

 

[Rich!]

What are the best NES/Snes/Genesis emulators to do scanlines and other CRT effects close to original?

Welcome to a whole new world:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=637928

 

[Madao]

well, if i could have retro games on modern TVs with 0 input lag, i would have never considered buying a CRT in these times. for now it's a band aid until the next XRGB comes out and solves the input lag nonsense (hopefully).
i don't really like scanlines and would rather have the games appear in the most clean form possible, pixels and all.

 

[KuroPyonyo]

What?
No, because you settle for emu doesn't mean the rest of us do.

Settle implies its worse than the original hardware, which is wrong. The only reason to play on old hardware is for sentimental reasons.

 

[Rich!]

Settle implies its worse than the original hardware, which is wrong. The only reason to play on old hardware is for sentimental reasons.

Bullshit.

Find me an emulator for the N64 or Saturn that gives an experience as accurate as the real thing that runs at full speed.

Hint: no solution exists.

 

[baphomet]

Settle implies its worse than the original hardware, which is wrong. The only reason to play on old hardware is for sentimental reasons.

It is worse than the original hardware. Most emulators are barely held together thanks to a bunch of hacks to get everything working.

 

[Tain]

I use CRTs and CRT filters for aesthetic reasons more than accuracy reasons. While I feel a CRT will closest match the artist's original vision, that's not the highest goal. I simply find slight blur and scanlines to make for a better-looking and more readable image than a razor-sharp mess of Lego bricks.

and lol, real hardware still has plenty of uses, get out of here. Emulation is wonderful but we don't even have passably complete emulation for all the SD consoles and an SDTV still beats a dope-ass gsync setup (let alone more common monitor setups).

 

[Peltz]

Settle implies its worse than the original hardware, which is wrong. The only reason to play on old hardware is for sentimental reasons.

 

[swit]

I find this notion to be more than a little overblown. CRT's were a bit softer. Didn't really make things look better though.

not sure if in the country you live there are still standard-definition television signals. If yes than try to watch them on your LCD TV. It will look like garbage. No, it didn't look like this on older CRT TVs. Low res games looked much better on CRT TVs too. I still have 30+'' CRT TVs for retro gaming, so can compare it directly.

 

[Timu]

here's another

OG Hardware (slightly modified)
OG game cartridge
LED TV
upscaler

Which upscaler???=O

 

[Robin64]

Also, what about official emulators? For example, SNES games on the Wii U. Here's a shot of EarthBound taken using the Wii U's browser, so it's exactly how it looks on my telly. As such, anyone playing this will get the exact experience the image suggests. It's not a bullshot, but as you can see, it might not look how you remember it from back in the day. (Heck, for many people such as those in Europe, it's always looked like this due to the Wii U version being the first release.)

 

[Timu]

Ugh, so many offscreen shots taken from cameras...This is why I only do direct capture.

 

[Rich!]

Ugh, so many offscreen shots taken from cameras...This is why I only do direct capture.

Go on, do a direct capture from a CRT.

 

[Saikyo]

Because some people played old games with RF + bad TV we should only post screenshots with this kind of quality?

Nah, going to still take screenshots with better internal resolution if its a 3D game. 2D maybe with some retroarch filters or not at all.

People should be happy that it motivate people to play classic games.

 

[Herne]

I don't remember relatively modern CRT's having the visible horizontal lines, so the CRT filters just irritate me. I'm sure they were there, but they weren't visible on any of the CRT's we had back in the 90's to about 2005. Hell, I remember my mid-90's 15" that I had hooked up to my C64, and there was no evidence of them on that.

 

[Robin64]

I don't remember relatively modern CRT's having the visible horizontal lines, so the CRT filters just irritate me. I'm sure they were there, but they weren't visible on any of the CRT's we had back in the 90's to about 2005. Hell, I remember my mid-90's 15" that I had hooked up to my C64, and there was no evidence of them on that.

Just wondering if you've tried modern shaders with something like Retroarch or if you're just basing that on early implementations like in ZSNES?

 

[Timu]

Go on, do a direct capture from a CRT.

I'm not entirely sure if that's possible without a camera, and I don't do gaming on TVs let alone CRTs, only through capture cards, so there's that.=p

 

[Rich!]

I'm not entirely sure if that's possible without a camera, and I don't do gaming on TVs let alone CRTs, only through capture cards, so there's that.=p

That's entirely my point

 

[Diablohead]

Go on, do a direct capture from a CRT.

My capture card has a tv tuner in it, I could try if I can find the right wires for my dreamcast.

s-video seems to smear the reds though, it's not the best card.

 

[Glix]

So you prefer shittier resolutions when you could look at something more appealing just because.

Alright

This is the most willfully obtuse post I have ever seen on this forum.

 

[Rich!]

My capture card has a tv tuner in it, I could try if I can find the right wires for my dreamcast.

s-video seems to smear the reds though, it's not the best card.

But that's still not taking a shot of how the CRT displays the image via the lasers and aperture grill tech.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

I don't mind emulated shots as long as they bear a resemblance to the original game.

 

[Tain]

I don't remember relatively modern CRT's having the visible horizontal lines, so the CRT filters just irritate me. I'm sure they were there, but they weren't visible on any of the CRT's we had back in the 90's to about 2005. Hell, I remember my mid-90's 15" that I had hooked up to my C64, and there was no evidence of them on that.

I'm guessing you sat awfully far away or simply don't remember them. Every 240p-ish signal on an SDTV had them.

 

[Timu]

That's entirely my point

But I don't use cameras so I can't do it.:/

 

[Herne]

Just wondering if you've tried modern shaders with something like Retroarch or if you're just basing that on early implementations like in ZSNES?

It's been a while since I played with anything other than Dolphin, but I remember those filters in Vice especially, and yeah probably the last time I played around with SNES and Mega Drive emulators which, going by my emulation folder... likely was with ZSNES and the equivalent Mega Drive emulator.

Vice's one is particularly bad - you're more likely to see the 40 vertical columns on anything you hook up a C64/C128 to than the blatant horizontal lines they show in the CRT filter.

Look at this nonsense -

 

[Timu]

Because some people played old games with RF + bad TV we should only post screenshots with this kind of quality?

Who seriously wants to use RF for comparisons when there are better alternatives out there even from the consoles them(including Atari 2600 when modded for svideo)?=O And lol RF, even composhit is more tolerable.=p

 

[Herne]

Who seriously wants to use RF for comparisons when there are better alternatives out there even from the consoles them(including Atari 2600 when modded for svideo)?=O And lol RF, even composhit is more tolerable.=p

Nothing wrong with composite for it's time, especially next to RF. But then, that's true of practically every other video connection out there

 

[lightchris]

This is a RGBNES on a CRT taken at a slight distance. You can have nice sharp image on a CRT with original hardware.

Good example. Even on this it looks way softer than a non-filtered emulator shot (and most people and probably even developers will have played it on a worse setup).

 

[bengraven]

Just so we're clear, I'm not arguing for filtered, or otherwise images being posted as true representations of the games played in the original state. I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with this (with CRT image on right for comparison);



Unaltered, unfiltered image. A direct-screen capture of the software in it's original state. This kind of screenshot accurately displays games as they are meant to be seen, and not in the varied pool of CRT Monitors/Televisions, RF, RGB, Composite and so on cables and cords.

Holy shit, I was coming in here to mention that I knew people who had a computer monitor hooked up to his SNES (and we played a few rounds of SF2), but you actually posted the monitor itself.

Are you in Minnesota by any chance?

 

[Borman]

the small shots are definitely emulator. they look way too clean for actual N64 even if the pic was 320x240.

Real 64 shot that I took using RGB:

 

[Rich!]

It's been a while since I played with anything other than Dolphin, but I remember those filters in Vice especially, and yeah probably the last time I played around with SNES and Mega Drive emulators which, going by my emulation folder... yeah, likely was with ZSNES and the equivalent Mega Drive emulator.

Vice's one is particularly bad - you're more likely to see the 40 vertical columns on anything you hook up a C64/C128 to than the blatant horizontal lines they show in the CRT filter.

Look at this nonsense -

Have a look at these retroarch shaders then:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2014/Y1Iu2S.gif

 

[Shadow Hog]

Just wanted to chip in on a few things that were bothering me from Page 2:

My counter argument, photos from my CRT. Sony Trinitron 28" 4:3, consoles hooked up via RGB as is standard here in the UK:

http://i3.minus.com/jeXtee9mwSBJX.jpg

http://i1.minus.com/j30Q2aAah6rMQ.PNG

Remember that RGB is a standard output here in Europe, was fully supported by all TV sets in the 90s and the SNES and PSX outputted in RGB with the use of the standard SCART cable.

That fuzzy Zelda 2 example? Never experienced that. Ever. See those photos I posted? That's how I experienced games in the 90s.

Well, I mean, if we're talking Zelda 2 specifically, then you probably did experience it like that in the 90s, since the NES never output RGB without heavy modifications that have only very recently become economically practical.

Although you're right-on about the SNES and PS1, given they're both RGB-compatible out of the box (provided cables carrying that signal are on-hand).

My NES games look like the picture on the left.

Your NES games had square pixels?

Yes?
http://i.imgur.com/OEsgl25.png

Your screenshot doesn't have square pixels, though; they're slightly wider than they are tall, due to how 256x224 isn't a 4:3 aspect ratio, but rather 8:7. I don't think anyone was contesting that they're damn sharp, at any rate.

 

[Timu]

Real 64 shot that I took using RGB:

Man, I would like to have my N64 RGB modded, and nice screens.

 

[chrisPjelly]

Idk, it's only obnoxious when people do it to make comparisons with games from more recent generations that clearly don't have an emulator as capable to set it to HD.

 

[InfiniteNine]

Man, I would like to have my N64 RGB modded, and nice screens.

I don't have a 64 atm and I hope I can find one somewhere when I'm able to get one! I've never soldering anything so I'm a bit nervous to do it myself even if I want to mod my Saturn to play some fan patches.

 

[Herne]

Have a look at these retroarch shaders then:

snip

Hey, those do look nice. Way better than I remember the earlier efforts. I'll have to get a CRT monitor for my C64 again... my 1084 died a while back and I'm relegated to using an s-video connection to an lcd tv. Not ideal :/

 

[Timu]

I don't have a 64 atm and I hope I can find one somewhere when I'm able to get one! I've never soldering anything so I'm a bit nervous to do it myself even if I want to mod my Saturn to play some fan patches.

What's worse than only certain N64s can be modded to do it!!!=O