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[dralla]

I don't see why you couldn't genderswap Link and Zelda if you really wanted to. Plotwise, I think only Ganon has to be male because he never reincarnated like Link or Zelda have. He just gets resurrected or escapes banishment, and his whole thing is that he's the only dude in his tribe.

Female Link AND female Zelda. Do it, Nintendo.

Really though, I want to play as Zelda more than a female Link. Although I welcome that too. Put Tetra in Smash plz

 

[ActuallyHulk]

I'm way more concerned about the randoms. Who are these nobodies?

 

[WrenchNinja]

Since that time they evolved the franchise to be fairly plot and character development focused, including the various Links. I want to play as a character, not myself. One of the most disappointing things about Xenoblade X was that they turned the main character into a customizable player avatar.

As for this game, all they had to do was say "The main character is Link and we didn't want to model other characters so we used palette swaps."

You'd have a point if Link had actual character

A customizable character doesnt have to be like the mess they did with XCX.

 

[soulassssns]

You can't play as a woman because you play as Link.

Whoa, crazy,

Lol

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Why would he be a token black guy? This sounds racist.

Because making Link black for the sake of making a black character sounds more racist to me than not including a black character at all. He'd have no reason to be be black, other than to say there's a black Link. Which is a horrible reason to randomly change the race of a 30 year old character.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

So much for the whole "There's nothing to support that Link is male in the legend! It's just an avatar!" stuff that keeps popping up.

Really? That could easily be handwaved away. That's like nothing.

explanation's valid. they're the creators, and they aren't beholden to inclusivity.

No, it isn't law, but people are certainly allowed to criticize them and say that their reasoning is BS.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I can't think of a single plot moment in any of the recent Zelda games where the game would need to be changed if you could choose a female version of the character. Your character has no dialogue or romantic relationships (the plot's been told mostly through sidekick characters), so it would be a purely cosmetic change as far as consequence to the game universe goes.

That's exactly where I sit with it. If there was a reasoning due to story I would understand that. But there isn't. You could make link anything really and have no issues.

 

[Neiteio]

In terms of the gameplay experience, maybe they figure that everyone wants to play as Link, which is why everyone's character looks like Link. The story is then a consequence of that: "Well, if everyone wants to play as Link and we make everyone's character look like Link, I guess we need a story that supports the notion that only male heroes showed up (who coincidentally have the same hair style, hair color, etc)."

It's silly, but maybe that's their reasoning. The best solution probably would've been to allow anyone to use a Link-like character, but also include a character editor that includes options for gender and ethnicity, should people want to personalize their hero.

 

[Roshin]

Actual real girls said it was okay, so yeah.

 

[Chindogg]

How many male characters are always presented as strong and sexy at the same time? (I know I'm going to get like a few token examples, and that's fine.) It's not an issue or debate when it comes to them. But it's extremely common in video games and other forms of media when it comes to women, and it's pretty alienating!

To be fair, the character you showed was a KT creation. However the problem you pose is that you only show this character while ignoring every other strong female character that is not half naked (IE the rest of the cast of the game.)

You mean the modern Zeldas where she's the one in peril

You mean the one where she disguises herself as a ninja? Or the one where another prominent female is controlling Link in wolf form? Or the one where Link works with a strong female pirate? Or the one where Zelda's female commander of the military and Link's female sword go to find Zelda who crashed?

While yes Zelda games are typical hero saves princess tropes, the series has many, many strong predominant female characters that are just as important as Link. To ignore that is basically to omit facts to frame a fairly weak argument.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Come on. They're all Link. (They can say it's Link and two other random heroes but I'm not blind. It's pretty clear you're always Link from your own perspective, like how you're always playing as Arno in Assassin's Creed Unity multiplayer.) People need to get over this weird desire to gender swap characters.

Seriously.

 

[DVCY201]

I thought the story was the two other guys were Dolls or something. I don't know. Definitely not the greatest answer that's for sure, or something got lost in translation.

Wasn't there something about 'imposters' too? People posing as Link or something? I'll have to watch the Direct again.

 

[SkeptiMism]

explanation's valid. they're the creators, and they aren't beholden to inclusivity.

I'm not sure if you're serious or sarcastic, but that doesn't say much.

Just because they're creators doesn't mean they can't be criticized and asked questions (just like any other subject).

As for the explanation itself, you really don't see anything funny about it? Even after reading some of the posts in the thread?

 

[Richie]

Uhuh.

Spoiler

lol I haven't played this but I think pointing out a few games where Nintendo has done a somewhat better job than they usually do as a sign that they're immune from sexism/misogyny complaints is a strange argument. Like what they've done is baby steps but they haven't really changed anything major to make me believe that they're honestly getting better. Being able to choose your gender in a mainline Zelda game would certainly help with that. Ain't no reason Link needs to be a boy. It's not like he has some in depth character development that needs to stay consistent.

My good friend, I never said they're immune to complaints about how they handle gender. But it's one thing to say that, and another to affirm, as the poster I quoted did, that they've been on the misogynist side for quite a while. They're far from reaching an ideal state for equality representation, but this generation has seen several efforts from them to improve in that area. Peach and Rosalina in 3D World, Dixie in Tropical Freeze, several female characters added to Smash Brothers, all the lady power within Kid Icarus Uprising and Fire Emblem Awakening, Hyrule Warriors running WILD with female representation, Splatoon emphasizing the girl Inkling as the main character...That's just off the top of my head. (I won't even mention Bayonetta here because of how divisive she is, but she's there.)

I'm not defending what Nintendo lacks in this area. I'm just saying they're getting better and it's far from feeling like they're being misogynist, IMHO.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Because making Link black for the sake of making a black character sounds more racist to me than not including a black character at all. He'd have no reason to be be black, other than to say there's a black Link. Which is a horrible reason to randomly change the race of a 30 year old character.

Man, I get that's your opinion, but that's extremely incorrect and there are numerous examples across other mediums of fandom that demonstrate that this is extremely untrue.

Characters don't need a reason to be black or female. The fact that you feel they need a reason is strange to me. I am having immense difficulty wrapping my head around this concept.

That's not what "token black character" means, or has ever meant.

Green Lantern has a more famous black identity than his white silver age identity.

Miles Morales is a very popular Spider-man who has had an acknowledged push to appear in films instead of Peter Parker.

Marvel is running female Thor comics.

Jimmy Olsen was Jenny Olsen in Man of Steel.

The new Fantastic Four has multiple black characters in place of white ones.

You are just not correct.

 

[Pandy]

You can't play as a woman because you play as Link.

Whoa, crazy,

13 posts before someone actual read the OP properly. Well done.

Everyone is playing as Link, as usual.
Link is a dude.
Therefore, everyone is playing as a dude.

I'm amazed the question even came up, aside from allowing for bonus Nintendo bashing click-bait.

 

[Linkhero1]

I'll quote myself:

To reiterate a little, it's not necessarily a bad thing at all to not include gender choices. If your game has a set protagonist, it's fine to create it male, there's nothing wrong with it.

But the thing is, it's easy to just create those male protagonists and there are a lot of people who would like also more female protagonists (for example because they're bored of stereotypical male characters, or they're a minority that would some more representation). So that's why people ask about it.

I just don't think it's fair for people to label every male protagonist game as stereotypical male character based games. I'm all for female protagonists in big games where it's the developers/creators intention for there to be playable females. If the developers/creators decide on male only protagonists for their titles, I don't see the reason to really complain even if their reasoning is shoddy. I mean, it's always possible we'll see a future title where the second and third characters are Zelda and Sheik and I welcome that.

 

[SuperDowns]

I didn't even know it was an issue.

I think this game has the Four Sword Adventure vibe so it is appropriate but I'd rather see all Zelda's than just adding Zelda to the mix if they fixed this.

 

[SerTapTap]

I'm way more concerned about the randoms. Who are these nobodies?

And what did they do with purple link?!

I didn't even know it was an issue.

I think this game has the Four Sword Adventure vibe so it is appropriate but I'd rather see all Zelda's than just adding Zelda to the mix if they fixed this.

It's not as big a deal in the main games, but co op games were you still have to play as all dudes starts to get a bit ickier

 

[dralla]

Seriously.

It's not about gender swapping characters, it's about diversity in characters in games as a whole.

 

[Spehornoob]

I don't think Nintendo thinks girls are icky. Hyrule Warriors has vastly more women kicking ass than me.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Because if you aren't beaten around the face with it being said, it can't possibly be true.

I'll just quote myself on the matter.



That said, if two of the characters aren't link at all, there's no reason they should be males.

They should have skipped the entire discussion and just had it be another four swords game though.

If they're not Link they shouldn't even look like Link, That's what pisses me off most about this game it's nonsensical and hamstringed together, well that and the dyed hair which is dyed as we do see regular blond link then we don't, so I don't know.

Uh...why couldn't it just be a FS sequel?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Man, I get that's your opinion, but that's extremely incorrect and there are numerous examples across other mediums of fandom that demonstrate that this is extremely untrue.

Characters don't need a reason to be black or female. The fact that you feel they need a reason is strange to me. I am having immense difficulty wrapping my head around this concept.

That's not what "token black character" means, or has ever meant.

Link is Hylian. Hylians are white. You need a reason to explain why Link is either no longer a Hylian or Hylians are no longer white.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

To be fair, the character you showed was a KT creation. However the problem you pose is that you only show this character while ignoring every other strong female character that is not half naked (IE the rest of the cast of the game.)

I'm sure there are decent characters as well, I'm just saying that that sort of....representation isn't exactly helpful in most cases.

 

[tanooki27]

I'm not sure if you're serious or sarcastic, but that doesn't say much.

Just because they're creators doesn't mean they can't be criticized and asked questions (just like any other subject).

As for the explanation itself, you really don't see anything funny about it? Even after reading some of the posts in the thread?

no sarcasm whatsoever. just threw my two cents in.

in my mind, the minute Nintendo begins bowing to fan "input" is the minute they stop being Nintendo.

 

[ActuallyHulk]

I can't think of a single plot moment in any of the recent Zelda games where the game would need to be changed if you could choose a female version of the character. Your character has no dialogue or romantic relationships (the plot's been told mostly through sidekick characters), so it would be a purely cosmetic change as far as consequence to the game universe goes.

To be fair Skyward Sword played the romance angle heavily in some parts. Even one of the songs is called "Romance Theme"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrVPxmdGYw4

Other than that though there's very little.

 

[RagnarokX]

I'm more confused by the fact that there seems to be no story explanation behind there being three Links, that and Link somehow dyes his hair at some point.

Still it is called Tri Force heroes, they could have easily made one character be Link, one be Zelda and then one be Impa or someone else.

It'd be easy, but it would be harder than just using palette swaps. They should have just said that.

I think the idea is basically that the other guys have to look very similar to real Link so that there is confusion as to which is the real one, so they can't be radically different from each other.

But that's not what's going on here. They're 3 different people. One Link and 2 other guys.

I'll quote myself:

To reiterate a little, it's not necessarily a bad thing at all to not include gender choices. If your game has a set protagonist, it's fine to create it male, there's nothing wrong with it.

But the thing is, it's easy to just create those male protagonists and there are a lot of people who would like also more female protagonists (for example because they're bored of stereotypical male characters, or they're a minority that would some more representation). So that's why people ask about it.

Come on, no need to be so passive aggressive.

Wouldn't it be 3 other guys? In single player you play as Link, but in multi you have green, blue, and red haired Link lookalikes.

As above, I think they have a reasonable case for not making the characters different from each other since there has to be confusion over which is the real hero. That's the contrivance they've come up with for why there is more than one hero and why they all look similar to Link without them being magical clones. Sure they could have come up with a different plot, but the one they did come up with is fine.

 

[DXLelouch153]

they should of made it a sequel to 4 swords but with Zelda instead of Link
her names in the fukin title so why doesnt she have her own game yet

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I can only appreciate and identify with virtual avatars that strain themselves trying to pacify my ever growing sense of politically correct self entitlement. And frankly, the fact that we don't have a single Zelda game where you play as a quadriplegic blasian polysexual trans-man furry satanist who's allergic to tree nuts is offensive, rude, hateful, and generally unforgivable. Get with the times Nintendo.

 

[Crocodile]

what

So when Jimmy Stewart became the new Green Lantern, he became the token black guy? When Miles Morales became the new Spider-man, he was the token Hispanic?

Seriously, what?

I think that depends on whether or not you think Link is Peter Parker or if he's Spiderman. I think Link is more akin to Peter Parker than he is to Spiderman (I'm aware that you personally feel differently). John Stewart isn't Hal Jordan and Miles Morales isn't Peter Parker but they are all Lanterns/Spidermen. Granted, I don't think race/genderswaping actual named characters is off the table but if you are specifically aiming for representation I do feel its the laziest/cheapest way to do it.

 

[Pejo]

I'm all for playable female characters in games, but I don't feel like anyone should have to explain why they didn't include one. If it wasn't the vision of the creators, so what. I'm disappointed that this is even a thing in the case of this particular game.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Link is Hylian. Hylians are white. You need a reason to explain why Link is either no longer a Hylian or Hylians are no longer white.

Because it's been a thousand years?

The Sami people used to be dark skinned and are now completely white. The United States used to be prominently white and Spanish will soon overtake English as the most spoken language. Your explanation is right there. White people fucked black people. Or Asian people. They had mixed race babies. The end.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I'm not sure if you're serious or sarcastic, but that doesn't say much.

Just because they're creators doesn't mean they can't be criticized and asked questions (just like any other subject).

As for the explanation itself, you really don't see anything funny about it? Even after reading some of the posts in the thread?

I imagine they figured it wasnt an issue that would come up due to the nature and context of the game

Its basically 3 cartoon characters running through a dungeon

What their response should have been was "oh I see no reason why we couldnt have done that we just werent thinking about it"

Are audiences not being served well enough in diversity that we need to demand this from every game (we arent). I dunno Maybe we do. This is definitely a game that didnt pop in my head when talking about female respresentation

Then again fans have been talking about that big Female Link discussion for a long time now so maybe Im just ignorant of the context

they should of made it a sequel to 4 swords but with Zelda instead of Link
her names in the fukin title so why doesnt she have her own game yet

Seriously! Zelda is awesome and is represented as a formidable person in both her art and the games she appears in.

Only Hyrule Warriors gave her an actual "adventure"

She needs a game

 

[DragonSworne]

Man, I get that's your opinion, but that's extremely incorrect and there are numerous examples across other mediums of fandom that demonstrate that this is extremely untrue.

Characters don't need a reason to be black or female. The fact that you feel they need a reason is strange to me. I am having immense difficulty wrapping my head around this concept.

That's not what "token black character" means, or has ever meant.

Green Lantern has a more famous black identity than his white silver age identity.

Miles Morales is a very popular Spider-man who has had an acknowledged push to appear in films instead of Peter Parker.

Marvel is running female Thor comics.

Jimmy Olsen was Jenny Olsen in Man of Steel.

The new Fantastic Four has multiple black characters in place of white ones.

You are just not correct.

Thank you. You explained it much better than I could have.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Link is Hylian. Hylians are white. You need a reason to explain why Link is either no longer a Hylian or Hylians are no longer white.

Unless your precious suspension of disbelief is going to crumble at the mere appearance of someone with different skin colour, which would be incredibly sad, you don't actually need a reason

 

[Zareka]

They wanted to churn out a quick co-op game at low cost so they copy/pasted everything from ALBW and pallet swapped Links model. Boom, explanation. For that $$$$.

Not saying it's right, but I never saw this as intentional, just a way to skimp costs. I would have totally dug 3 different playable characters. I can't even play as real Link anyway, gimme Zelda.

 

[WrenchNinja]

They wanted to churn out a quick co-op game at low cost so they copy/pasted everything from ALBW and pallet swapped Links model. Boom, explanation. For that $$$$.

Not saying it's right, but I never saw this as intentional, just a way to skimp costs. I would have totally dug 3 different playable characters. I can't even play as real Link anyway, gimme Zelda.

It's not even the ALBW model

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I think that depends on whether or not you think Link is Peter Parker or if he's Spiderman. I think Link is more akin to Peter Parker than he is to Spiderman (I'm aware that you personally feel differently). John Stewart isn't Hal Jordan and Miles Morales isn't Peter Parker but they are all Lanterns/Spidermen. Granted, I don't think race/genderswaping actual named characters is off the table but if you are specifically aiming for representation I do feel its the laziest/cheapest way to do it.

Valid, well explained, and understood.

I personally believe Link is a costume. Because Link often, ceremoniously, acquires the hero's clothes in his games. He gets the green clothes from his grandmother, or the nature spirit. In that respect, for me, Link is Spider-man. Not Peter Parker.

But even with respect to this perspective, a female companion option, who is not Link in name but merely the Hero of Time/Men/Wind, seems perfectly acceptable.

 

[Mango The Magician]

It'd be easy, but it would be harder than just using palette swaps. They should have just said that.

I think the idea is basically that the other guys have to look very similar to real Link so that there is confusion as to which is the real one, so they can't be radically different from each other.


Wouldn't it be 3 other guys? In single player you play as Link, but in multi you have green, blue, and red haired Link lookalikes.

As above, I think they have a reasonable case for not making the characters different from each other since there has to be confusion over which is the real hero. That's the contrivance they've come up with for why there is more than one hero and why they all look similar to Link without them being magical clones. Sure they could have come up with a different plot, but the one they did come up with is fine.

I'm pretty sure the one you see in the cutscenes is the real one, still whole thing is weird.

 

[Entryhazard]

Playable Zelda >>>>>>>>>> Female Link

Come at me

 

[Crossing Eden]

I can't think of a single plot moment in any of the recent Zelda games where the game would need to be changed if you could choose a female version of the character. Your character has no dialogue or romantic relationships (the plot's been told mostly through sidekick characters), so it would be a purely cosmetic change as far as consequence to the game universe goes.

I'm sorry but did we play the same game?

 

[Linkhero1]

Playable Zelda >>>>>>>>>> Female Link

Come at me

I would love to see this and I prefer this.

 

[Chindogg]

I'm sure there are decent characters as well, I'm just saying that that sort of....representation isn't exactly helpful in most cases.

So in other words, you're ignoring the fact that it's the exception and not the rule just to confirm your argument. That's called a confirmation bias and it's really a poor tactic to make an argument.

 

[params7]

I've never played a Zelda game but:

And to be honest, Link isn't the most masculine of guys in the world, depending on how you want to project yourself into the character.

Hahahaha

 

[QueenOfThorns]

My good friend, I never said they're immune to complaints about how they handle gender. But it's one thing to say that, and another to affirm, as the poster I quoted did, that they've been on the misogynist side for quite a while. They're far from reaching an ideal state for equality representation, but this generation has seen several efforts from them to improve in that area. Peach and Rosalina in 3D World, Dixie in Tropical Freeze, several female characters added to Smash Brothers, all the lady power within Kid Icarus Uprising and Fire Emblem Awakening, Hyrule Warriors running WILD with female representation, Splatoon emphasizing the girl Inkling as the main character...That's just off the top of my head. (I won't even mention Bayonetta here because of how divisive she is, but she's there.)

I'm not defending what Nintendo lacks in this area. I'm just saying they're getting better and it's far from feeling like they're being misogynist, IMHO.

I respect that, but I don't really see things getting better. Samus is pretty much just wank material now with the zero suit samus crap and the entire botch of her character in Other M.

The Dixie Kong example is...a character from a game made in 1996. So I'm glad it's there, but it just feels we're going in circles. I want something major.

So while things like options in the Mario games and the selectable characters in Splatoon are nice, I'm still hesitant to believe Nintendo is getting "better" since that's such a low bar. Sony and Microsoft already have more third party games on the pipeline that are about non-sexualized women, some of the things I see coming from Nintendo are fanservice stuff like Samus/FireEmblem and the like.

So in other words, you're ignoring the fact that it's the exception and not the rule just to confirm your argument. That's called a confirmation bias and it's really a poor tactic to make an argument.

Hey, the game only has ONE weird fanservice character, you should be happy!

My argument is that I'm not going to believe Nintendo is getting better about gender representation while they're furthering alienating fanservice characters like that.

 

[wuth]

Is there a problem with a character being strong and sexy at the same time? Seems to work for Bayonetta.

The problem for many is that strong and sexy seems to be the default speed. Either that or innocent and vulnerable. Things are getting WAY better, but lets be honest- that was just pandering.

 

[SkeptiMism]

13 posts before someone actual read the OP properly. Well done.

Everyone is playing as Link, as usual.
Link is a dude.
Therefore, everyone is playing as a dude.

I'm amazed the question even came up, aside from allowing for bonus Nintendo bashing click-bait.

But that's not the what the OP is saying. That's what the reason probably is, but it's not the explanation. The explanation itself is something completely different, and it's quite funny really (and a bit sad).

I just don't think it's fair for people to label every male protagonist game as stereotypical male character based games. I'm all for female protagonists in big games where it's the developers/creators intention for there to be playable females. If the developers/creators decide on male only protagonists for their titles, I don't see the reason to really complain even if their reasoning is shoddy. I mean, it's always possible we'll see a future title where the second and third characters are Zelda and Sheik and I welcome that.

I don't think anyone is labeling every male protagonist as a stereotypical male character (and I wasn't doing that either).

no sarcasm whatsoever. just threw my two cents in.

in my mind, the minute Nintendo begins bowing to fan "input" is the minute they stop being Nintendo.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but they already do that, just as pretty much every developer does. It doesn't mean that they bow to them in everything obviously.

Wouldn't it be 3 other guys? In single player you play as Link, but in multi you have green, blue, and red haired Link lookalikes.

As above, I think they have a reasonable case for not making the characters different from each other since there has to be confusion over which is the real hero. That's the contrivance they've come up with for why there is more than one hero and why they all look similar to Link without them being magical clones. Sure they could have come up with a different plot, but the one they did come up with is fine.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't there 3 guys in total in this game (as opposed to the 4 characters of Four Sword)?

And for the record, yes I indeed think that it's completely reasonable of them to create them all similar. It's just that the explanation sucked.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Playable Zelda >>>>>>>>>> Female Link

Come at me

Heck yeah man. Im down for that.

 

[imBask]

Unless your precious suspension of disbelief is going to crumble at the mere appearance of someone with different skin colour, which would be incredibly sad, you don't actually need a reason

well if Han Solo was a japanese woman in the next Star Wars I think we'd all be fairly confused considering the character was written as a white male 40 years ago over the course of 3 movies and a billion spin offs, i'm not saying i'd be REALLY MAD or offended, but it wouldn't make much sense even with suspension of disbelief

Link is a white male and has been for 30 years, I don't see what's wrong about Link being a white male in this new iteration, it has nothing to do with sexism or racism

I get that the response they gave is a bit wonky and I agree with anyone saying that, it really is, but other than that, who cares

 

[SilverLunar]

Playable Zelda >>>>>>>>>> Female Link

Come at me

With you.

I just dont care about Link being a girl at all, Zelda is way cooler.