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[Riposte]

The point is that games so badly want to, well, indulge in sexual content, but don't want to be seen as "pornographic" with the ratings and perception that entails, so you get these ridiculous half-way attempts that aren't "really porn" because there's not enough skin showing. And I do think you can leverage the exact same criticism at how Mass Effect handles things, its just not as baked into the moment to moment experience as much as some of these.

It is a bit of an asinine point to make, because it's a grave people like Parish would love to dig for these games. The idea that he genuinely finds cheesecake-heavy games "sleazier" than the eroge games (which are only allowed to exist outside consoles/portables) is hard to believe. So it's really a matter of being frustrated they don't jump into the grave.

That's putting aside the point that these developers may find a specific appeal to being risque, but not explicit. Comedy, for example, is rarely sexually explicit even when very sexually charged.

 

[Springy]

I'm actually more surprised, reading Jeremy's description of Omega Labyrinth, that it hasn't been thought of before, and annoyed that I wasn't the one to think of it. Big breast-expanding bucks to be made.

Is there an audience for full-on nudity in games? Will breaking down that barrier more generally help games "grow up"?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Parish say that stuff like Onega Laberinth is "not honest" but sure as hell that logo and premise screams "I don't give a fuck".

It's not just that it screams that, it screams cheese

The developers are just having fun and being goofy while some like Parish want them to be serious.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

This is rather different (and dare I say refreshing) reaction to Omega Labyrinth. Some other outlets went down the regurgitate press release route plastered with some NSFW warnings and minor commentary rather than using the game as a framework for other things.

Gaming as a medium still has a very much guilt by associated take on it and I feel especially sorry for Vita owners whose system seems to be the magnet for these sorts of games.

The Fire Emblem Awakening comment made me laugh as how NOE kept the graphics uncensored but decided to change a dialogue about the characters body (the size of a certain part of it...complete with 900 year old loli dragon girl asking about it) to being about...her hair.

 

[Yopis]

Certain group wants to keep games mom approved.

 

[SonyToo!™]

I'm sick of the otaku Moe as much as the next guy but it's what sells, at a time when the Japanese mainstream is playing mobile games the pervs both male and female are propping up traditional Japanese gaming.

That said Japanese devs need lay off the smut for games that have a western following, or atleast de-smut them in localisation.

This is one of those sentences where the (unsaid) "but" undoes the previous part.

No No you're wrong! They don't want to companies to stop making these games but just... become something different

 

[Verger]

I don't think you're going to get much more creativity and variety out of Japan until they get their economic shit in gear. Right now the big bucks are being spent by their own version of "Whales" (which are their Otaku), since those seem to be the only ones with disposable income who spend their money on these things.

There's also probably other cultural considerations to consider.

 

[rhandino]

And now, thanks to USGamer, even more people is going to hear about this niche game in this niche genre in that niche console and their curiosity will be piqued at the so-out-there premise and are going to be percheD for it now...

 

[RedSwirl]

I think most of the responses here are missing the the whole point Parish is trying to make here.

Towards the beginning he makes the suggestion that fanservice otaku games should just cut the bullshit and be straight-up porn already, or at least just go ahead and do full-frontal nudity and stop beating around the bush like something appealing to teenagers would. From what I read the article asks for less teens-looking-at-victoria's-secret, and more HBO or actual film love scenes. The article also laments that Japan's ratings system pretty much doesn't allow this, and that part of the problem is video games are still seen as very much of a child's thing in Japan.

I think some western games are starting to get better, if slowly. At least some western games are trying to approach sexuality in a more adult way. The Witcher 2 and 3 do a pretty good job all things considered and are pretty much on a similar level to an HBO series if you ask me.

Finally, while we're on the point of whether or not games should be allowed to have this content, once again we arrive at the assumption these articles are calling for the removal of this content. I don't think anybody's saying stuff like Dragon's Crown or Omega Labyrinth should be banned or whatever, or that no one should be allowed to make them. People are just frustrated we don't have more mature depictions of sex in video games to balance all that stuff out. A good balance exists in other media, but not video games.

 

[Tohsaka]

And now, thanks to USGamer, even more people is going to hear about this niche game in this niche genre in that niche console and their curiosity will be piqued at the so-out-there premise and are going to be percheD for it now...

Kind of like how Dungeon Travelers 2 went up to #1 on the Vita Amazon charts when Polygon did that article complaining about the "softcore porn" calendar pre-order bonus.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I don't think you're going to get much more creativity and variety out of Japan until they get their economic shit in gear. Right now the big bucks are being spent by their own version of "Whales" (which are their Otaku), since those seem to be the only ones with disposable income who spend their money on these things.

There's also probably other cultural considerations to consider.

The myth is that Japanese devs just started making games like this recently. Go look at what D3 (the publisher of Omega Labyrinth) were doing on the PSone. They were making games like this along games literally called "The Mahjong", "The Chess", and "The 3D Pinball".

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I think most of the responses here are missing the the whole point Parish is trying to make here.

Towards the beginning he makes the suggestion that fanservice otaku games should just cut the bullshit and be straight-up porn already, or at least just go ahead and do full-frontal nudity and stop beating around the bush like something appealing to teenagers would. From what I read the article asks for less teens-looking-at-victoria's-secret, and more HBO or actual film love scenes. The article also laments that Japan's ratings system pretty much doesn't allow this, and that part of the problem is video games are still seen as very much of a child's thing in Japan.

I think some western games are starting to get better, if slowly. At least some western games are trying to approach sexuality in a more adult way. The Witcher 2 and 3 do a pretty good job all things considered and are pretty much on a similar level to an HBO series if you ask me.

Finally, while we're on the point of whether or not games should be allowed to have this content, once again we arrive at the assumption these articles are calling for the removal of this content. I don't think anybody's saying stuff like Dragon's Crown or Omega Labyrinth should be banned or whatever, or that no one should be allowed to make them. People are just frustrated we don't have more mature depictions of sex in video games to balance all that stuff out. A good balance exists in other media, but not video games.

Big problem: Adult rated games are also gravely restricted to be sold in stores in Japan.

 

[Green Wiggly]

The best way to commercialize something is to make it taboo.

 

[djplaeskool]

Omega Labyrinth.
Destroyer of worlds

Spoiler

and school uniform tops

 

[RedSwirl]

Big problem: Adult rated games are also gravely restricted to be sold in stores in Japan.

Which, the article suggests, is part of the reason the developers who make these games are in this position in the first place.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Which, the article suggests, is part of the reason the developers who make these games are in this position in the first place.

So his point is lost before he even made it. Stuff like HBO took at lot of talent and willingness to invest, something that Japan has made clear are not able to do to 100%.

Even the Witcher 3 got flack for perceived "inmaturity", so is not like there is no risk or people willing to bury stuff for perceived slights.

 

[EvilKatarn]

Desperate attempts at painting some games in a negative shade just because you think those games don't represent the best of the industry speak volumes more about the adolescence of games journalists than their perceived adolescence of the industry.

Did these discussions happen in the film industry when the American Pie movies were coming out?

 

[Nyoro SF]

I wonder if he realizes that games like Omega Labyrinth barely sell any copies at all in their home country (and probably even fewer overseas). It's an extraordinarily niche market they appeal to with crazy fanservice titles like that. It is not an indication of an industry trend, or gaming as a whole medium.

EDIT: Also, isn't Rating Z the equivalent of Rating M in NA?

 

[Skux]

Where's that CS Lewis quote when you need it.

And what the writer describes isn't really a gaming issue. It's more like a Japan issue.

 

[Sabas]

So we have Matrix, a talented studio, creating a legitimate roguelike for Vita: All good things. Then, they've drenched it with a thoroughly repellant coating. What a waste.

What a waste is that they've been delegated to porting FF games for the past five years or so. (Groove Coaster is pretty alright though)

 

[John Kowalski]

I kinda like the notion that your experience is reflected in the size of your boobs.

That's some expert commentary.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

Did these discussions happen in the film industry when the American Pie movies were coming out?

These discussions regarding movies happened long before and are still going after American Pie.

Movies have different genres/styles that appeal to different people. Games are slowly becoming that-- so there are loli pedo games, dudebro jingoist games, artsy games, more gameplay focused games, less gameplay focused, not-quite-8-bit games about relationships with a single word for a title , and on and on.

 

[RedSwirl]

Kill Screen how has a slightly relevant article to this subject: http://killscreendaily.com/articles/videogames-are-afraid-female-body/

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

Growing up is overrated.

 

[Alex]

For most markets you just move on, but the modern otaku market pretty much laid waste to a very hefty section of the niche Japanese landscape over the past so-many-years. It's worth lamenting for some (like me!). It has absolutely changed a lot of what I play and my buying habits. I've pretty much retreated from quite a bit of Japanese games due to it although I don't think that it is purely it's own problem, the Japanese market would still be hurting regardless.

Man though... that game sounds, uh... I mean a lifetime of Japanese entertainment and I'm still puzzled to the existence of this market. I understood when fanservice was a bit part, a random character or some shitty spin-off with no real mechanics. Despite some peoples need to lash out I *really* doubt it's a values thing for anyone it's just kinda weird how nowadays not only does it fairly consistently consume an entire otherwise completely legitimate product, but it's opened up it's own entire little lifestyle.

Tossing any snark aside It just seems like it would get so tiring, like... pancakes for every meal only the pancake took a little bit of your soul with it as they dumped on more and more sugar to appeal to the increasingly numb consumer!

I can't speak for others but that's how it sometimes comes off as awkward or gross, at least to me.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I can't think of a game that would have been better if the developers had chose/been able to include nudity.

Papers, Please

 

[Fury451]

It seems like the argument comes down to poor handling/bad taste in these products taints the hobby as a whole, but honestly that view has always existed. I don't judge all of film by the existence of pornography, and I doubt that all people judge gaming based on the existence of these games. Unless they're incredibly sheltered and ignorant people to begin with.

That said, none of these kind of products of ever held an appeal to me in any regard, so maybe I'm just not informed enough to be giving a viewpoint on this at all anyways.

 

[vagabondarts]

I'm annoyed that one of my favorite genres, first person dungeon crawlers, seem like magnets to this stuff. The games don't benefit from it at all and it makes me not want to buy them.

 

[Griss]

Wow, this guy says out loud the argument that I always wondered if people were actually making internally when they criticised these games.

"Porn is fine, but almost porn? That's fucking terrible!!"

I see this opinion a lot, usually reading between the lines, and I can't for the life of me understand it.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

A little off-topic but it's always nice to see Spec Ops name-dropped.

...the rest of the article feels like a lukewarm rehash of old, tired forum flames; come on, I 'm sure we can collectively do better than that.

Porn exists. Clearly the film medium needs to grow up.

I'm more concerned by the threat posed on cinema by the Marvel franchises, to be honest.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

why don't you just watch some fucking porn

like, cut out the fucking middleman instead of playing every other vita game with one hand

I bet its cheaper too

 

[Regulus Tera]

I'm more concerned by the threat posed on cinema by the Marvel franchises, to be honest.

Cinema survived the onslaught of Western movies. It will survive the plague of dumb super hero movies.

 

[MHWilliams]

Did these discussions happen in the film industry when the American Pie movies were coming out?

This is one of those "I wasn't there, so I just assume it doesn't exist" type of statements.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/american-pie-1999

"American Pie" comes in the middle of a summer when moviegoers have been reeling at the level of sexuality, vulgarity, obscenity and gross depravity in movies aimed at teenagers (and despite their R ratings, these movies obviously have kids under 17 in their cross-hairs). Consider that until a few years ago semen and other secretions and extrusions dare not speak their names in the movies. Then "There's Something About Mary" came along with its hair-gel joke. Very funny. Then came "Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me," with its extra ingredient in the coffee. Then "South Park," an anthology of cheerful scatology. Now "American Pie," where semen has moved right onto the menu, not only as a drink additive but also as filling for a pie that is baked by the hero's mom. How long will it be before the money shot moves from porn to PG-13? I say this not because I am shocked, but because I am a sociological observer, and want to record that the summer of 1999 was the season when Hollywood's last standards of taste fell. Nothing is too gross for the new comedies. Grossness is the point. While newspapers and broadcast television continue to enforce certain standards of language and decorum, kids are going to movies that would make longshoremen blush. These movies don't merely contain terms I can't print in the paper--they contain terms I can't even describe in other words.

There has been criticism for as long as there has been art. The answer to "Why don't people talk about X too!" has always been "They do."

 

[ZSeba]

100% agree with the article. At least "western" games are able to show actual nudity (see gta4, witcher series, quantic dream games), the way japanese devs handle those themes is almost always creepy/sleazy.

 

[Slavik81]

Desperate attempts at painting some games in a negative shade just because you think those games don't represent the best of the industry speak volumes more about the adolescence of games journalists than their perceived adolescence of the industry.

Did these discussions happen in the film industry when the American Pie movies were coming out?

AO is a death-sentence for a video game. Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony will all refuse to allow it on their consoles, and if you release for PC you won't be able to sell it in most stores. The ESRB has only ever given out a total of 27 AO ratings, because developers must edit and resubmit the game until they get an M rating if they want to have the slightest hope of commercial success.

I think 'never-ending adolescence' is more or less accurate.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Cinema survived the onslaught of Western movies. It will survive the plague of dumb super hero movies.

But can it survives the Blake Snyder bomb A and fart jokes chemical warfare ?

 

[nynt9]

I don't think having a subset of games be adolescent means gaming is adolescent. Over the past few years we've seen games have some of the most mature stories in the history of the medium. I think this article is cherry picking some games they find "problematic" and instead of straight up talking about those games, it's generalizing to the medium.

 

[MUnited83]

I will never understand why there's so many articles complaining about these kinds of games and how much they are "ruining gaming and they are the reason gaming doesn't get taken seriously". Those games are so extremely niche, they aren't affecting anything. Most of them struggle barely even sell in their home country at all. The reason they keep churning them out is because there's a dedicated but small target audience that will probably buy it. It gets by because they have small budgets in the first place. Try to take the fanservice away of them, the only thing you will do is take away potential sales of something that already had low potential sales.
Those are small-time games that have no real influence on the gaming industry.


In the big scheme of things, they are basically insignifcant. Like many trashy movies are. But that didn't ruin the whole cinema medium, did it?

 

[Regulus Tera]

AO is a death-sentence for a video game. Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony will all refuse to allow it on their consoles, and if you release for PC you won't be able to sell it in most stores. The ESRB has only ever given out a total of 27 AO ratings, because developers must edit and resubmit the game until they get an M rating if they want to have the slightest hope of commercial success.

I think 'never-ending adolescence' is more or less accurate.

Is that really that big of a deal in this age of digital download?

I'm not sure about Steam policies though.

 

[Dio]

Yeah, this isn't just about 'why don't these games go all the way', it's because if they did they would make absolutely no money compared to if they didn't. AO games sell drastically worse, and everyone's afraid of getting labeled AO, or in Japan's case, CERO Z.

 

[Atolm]

Is that really that big of a deal in this age of digital download?

I'm not sure about Steam policies though.

Steam also gets shy with AO games.

 

[Korigama]

*gets to part where he talks about Onechanbara Z II: Chaos*

Clearly Tamsoft wanted to go full-on Kekko Kamen with its characters, but couldn't take it that far under Sony's watchful eye on PlayStation 4... so they came up with a solution that ended up looking vastly more vulgar than if the girls had just been fighting zombies au naturale.

*had no idea what Kekko Kamen was...not only found out what it was after looking it up, but also learned that such a series ran in Shonen Jump of all places back in the '70s*

...Huh.

 

[Ryuukan]

porn is disgusting
softcore forever

 

[Etnos]

I mean sure that game looks pretty terrible, but I don't subscribe to this "Never-Ending Adolescence", What does that suppose to mean?

- Movies have juvenile dumb movies like Sharknado
- There is more erotic, soap-opery garbage novels than the one can read in a lifetime
- Some comic books have some pretty terrible story lines

Nowadays we have so much diversity in games, I don't buy this argument

 

[SamusPrime]

Man, some people just have so much time to waste and content gaps to fill.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Pretty sure Jeremy's just upset because he's a fan of this genre and the bulk of the games in it are filled with a level of fanservice that makes him uncomfortable, whereas most of the target audience for games like OL and DT2 either see that stuff as a plus or just don't have a huge problem with it.

Regardless, this is pretty much the free market at work. People generally don't want games that treat sex in "mature" ways, they either want no sex at all or cheap fanservice. That's just the fucked-up way our society (as well as Japanese society) is with sex right now.

 

[Balb]

Man, some people just have so much time to waste and content gaps to fill.

Oh please. Save that for the hundreds of lazy top 10 lists that various sites churn out every week. Just because you don't agree with the article, it doesn't mean that it's stupid filler content.

 

[Eolz]

Hmm, re-reading, yeah, I missed the point (even if tbf, the title and intro/quotes don't help).
However, he also does miss the point in thinking that asian/japanese relationship to nudity isn't the same than western ones. What he sees as a "the impression of a 12-year-old obsessing over Victoria's Secret catalogs and scanning fuzzy stolen cable images for the merest hint of a nipple" isn't seen the same way in japan. Idols and gravure are one side that don't exactly exist in the west, just as there is a lot more humor in presenting a naked body.

Kill Screen how has a slightly relevant article to this subject: http://killscreendaily.com/articles/videogames-are-afraid-female-body/

See, the first half of the article was pretty good (GoT spoilers), but it lose it pretty quickly when it starts talking about video games: it just gives 3 examples, doesn't really make an analysis, and stops there, without any form of conclusion. Pretty disappointed with KS output this past year :/

 

[Mulgrok]

There needs to be a shooter where main protag gains an erection that grows in size as they fire guns. 10/10 goty

 

[Caronte]

Since you agree can you explain what his point is? Because I read it and I still don't understand what he's overall point is with this article.

The point is that games so badly want to, well, indulge in sexual content, but don't want to be seen as "pornographic" with the ratings and perception that entails, so you get these ridiculous half-way attempts that aren't "really porn" because there's not enough skin showing. And I do think you can leverage the exact same criticism at how Mass Effect handles things, its just not as baked into the moment to moment experience as much as some of these.

This. I'm really annoyed by things like unrealistic boob physics designed for 12 year olds, it breaks my immersion. I wish they would show nudity and sex in a natural way, not what a 12 year old thinks it's sexy.

There's a very clear lack of taste when it comes to sexuality in games, in general, when compared to TV, movies and books.