You don't even see it on Steam. The visual novels like Grisaia etc. that originally had sex scenes in them are removed from the Steam versions.
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USGamer: Gaming's Never-Ending Adolescence (about Omega Labyrinth and sex)
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You don't even see it on Steam. The visual novels like Grisaia etc. that originally had sex scenes in them are removed from the Steam versions.
There is a lack of talent because there is a lack of demand for such talent. Most games have stories written as an afterthought to fit the predetermined mechanics and levels. Good luck finding talented people willing to waste their time on low paying, filler material. To attract talent, mindsets needs to change and the way games are made need to change. Until then, all we can do is scout for the few diamonds in the rough. And boy is it rough out there.
And the fact that gamers try to shutdown such discourse with twitter hate and use fast and the furious as a counter argument doesn't really help. We gamers need to grow up too.
maaaaaaaaaaaaan i thought this was gonna be a really interesting article, but it's just the usual drivel that shows up when some nerd sees a jp game he doesn't like
oh, he's one of those "ur all pedos" people, snore
oh, he's one of those "ur all pedos" people, snore
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I completely agree. This thread in itself has people exhibiting similar behavior and have already given up on video games being able to tell better stories then they already do. Like it's somehow impossible for the writing to get better.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
If growing up means putting story ahead of mechanics and level design the fuck no games shouldnt grow up.
Obliterator
Member
The concept of this game sounds awesome.
Their boobs get bigger as they level up? Thats freaking genius and I'm shocked no one came up with this before
Their boobs get bigger as they level up? Thats freaking genius and I'm shocked no one came up with this before
So he shoehorned in some Western examples in the article but the real problem is Japanese games. If only the medium of budget erotic anime RPGs offered any other vision of sexuality besides being budget erotic anime RPG.
At least he took the time to actually show us what he meant after skirting around shit in the article. But really, I don't need or want to see niche Japanese games tempered by a Western vision of maturity. I want to see the Japanese game.
Come on Jeremy, you're a better writer then to resort to that.
Would retailers refuse to stock the hardware itself over adult only games? That makes no sense to me. Why not just refuse to stock the games? It's not like wal mart is refusing to stock blu-ray players because they can play adult movies.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
ah, the good old gamers as pedophiles argument. Never gets old.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Could you give us some examples of western games that handle sexuality in a non-juvenile way?
Maintenance
Member
Staying classy.
I can't think of any. I may have not been clear. My italicized part is a point he made in his blog, which I find to be ridiculous.
Riposte
Member
What does non-juvenile mean?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Its not just about this stupid nerdy embarrassing otaku game. Its the lack of the opposite. Yes, there are trashy awful romance novels all over the place, but there are also tons of mature, nuanced, legitimately great literature about adult relationships. Yeah, 50 Shades of Gray exists, but so does Before Sunrise, Casablanca and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and hundreds of other movies that don't have the embarrassing level of depiction of sexuality and attraction that video games so often display. Where are all the games that aren't various levels of titillating garbage? Where are the sensitive or interesting depictions of sexuality or human bonding we can point to as great?
This guy is telling other people to grow up?
He should take his own damn medicine. What a joke of a writer.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
A great game should have all of these things if they're attempting to make a game with a story. There is no reason a game can't have great mechanics, level design and story. There are plenty of great games that have little to no story, but there are also plenty of games that attempt to have a story and it ends up being a boring, generic mess.
Growing up means that if you're going to bother making a story for your game, make a story that isn't a badly written one that brings down your game as a result.
Obliterator
Member
Honestly major Western games in the past couple years barely have any sexuality at all. Not whether good or bad. They just don't even have it. Its like they are utterly avoiding the topic outside of say, GTA
I think devs are scared shitless if they even address it one way or another there will be massive lashback from somehwere in the gaming interweb's.
I think devs are scared shitless if they even address it one way or another there will be massive lashback from somehwere in the gaming interweb's.
As any medium ages you see an increase in diversity, expressed themes, the quality of those expressions (as we work out what does and doesn't work), etc. As more people grow up playing games and then go into the game industry you will see it naturally change over time. Gaming just hasn't had as many of these cycles compared to other media.
This is the crux of the issue. A book with shit writing is worthless. A movie with shit writing can be hurt depending on its aims and goals. A game with shit writing is a non-issue and any time the writing/narrative and the gameplay could clash, gameplay should always win.
It's certainly moving in that direction. This is, after all, a very very young artform. And it honestly won't get there any quicker if we were somehow able to shove all the creepy games in the closet.
Riposte
Member
If you are asking where are the games where the romantic relationship is the focus, there isn't going to many, because that does not translate well into interactivity. Romance between characters remains a matter of plot and characterization, which rarely dominates the game. As such, there is a whole game that gets in the way of making a movie or novel about a relationship (rather than simply feature one). If you are asking for games that feature such a romance and are not also "titillating", I don't think it is that difficult to find them if you actually look.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I'm also wondering what that means exactly. But I have a feeling it's an arbitrary set of standards that when met, will be changed until there are no longer any games that will meet them, since his entire point seems to hinge on there not being any games that are "non-juvenile" it wouldn't make any sense to accept any that are presented.
I could be wrong though.
Are movies required to compromise on other aspects of film making to tell a good story? This notion that gameplay needs to be compromised in order to tell a good story comes from people who are simply afraid of change and refuse to think outside the little box they have defined for the medium. Like it or not, almost every game out there tries to tell some story. It's not too much to ask that they do a better job at it. If that means breaking the status quo and re-evaluating how games are made, then so be it.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
That is a huge failure on the medium then. A huge failure.
KuroPyonyo
Banned
What about if I don't want to hear your "better stories". I don't care about your oh so deep characters and your intricate world building. That's not the reason I play videogames. I want ridicoulus bullshit. I want a game with a big breasted school girl with a unpractically large katana destroying dinosaurs with death rays, flying sharks and gigantic robots while the collectibles consist of underwear.
....This is an issue Japan itself has to deal with honestly :l.
Over the years, both the West and Japan have had issues with female representation in games, but recent years due to the gaming climate changing thanks to people calling that crap out, more and more modern western games have been doing a much better job with their female characters.
There designs are far less offensive then in the past, they have been in leading roles more (Tomb Raider, Remember Me, Transistor, Mirrors Edge PS4/X1, Horizon Zero Dawn, ect) alongside having more major roles in games (Gears 4, AC Unity, Dragon Age Inquisition, ect). So while the issue is still present in western games, it has been getting better honestly
.
Japan....they haven't changed at all :l. We still have JP games that don't use fan-service like Kingdom Hearts, many JP games like using fan-service and have 'exaggerated' female designs. Team Ninja games were the exception rather than the rule, but even something like DOA is tame in comparison to more recent JP series (the SK series, various games banned on Gaf, Sword Art Online Hollow Fragment, ect).
The thing is that Japan isn't that bothered with sexuality; it seems like they are more open to that concept and like to celebrate it a lot more then it is in the west (explaining games like DOA and SK).
The problem is that the west isn't nearly as open to sexuality next to Japan, leading to culture-clash when overly sexual JP games get localized (noticeably so in recent years); western gamers react in a toxic way to the product and it ends up leading to people trashing the game due to its image or it outright banned from discussion.
Personally, I don't mind games with heavy fan-service if the game is high quality gameplay/story/design wise but it can bother me though (wasn't a huge fan of the fan-service in the SAO games at times....). But I'm not everybody; a large number of people are bothered by this and Japan-developed games should consider ways to counter-act those elements for people that are offended by them.
Optional 'censored' mode that gamers can pick from the start, male characters having the same fan-service as female characters (in the case of something like Dead or Alive); taking measures to make the games more inviting to people.
And some of them are already doing this, as the SK:EF has an option to disable the cloth tearing for people that are bothered by it (same with Neptuina: Action Unleashed), SK2 is having male characters join the roster, and even games far back like Dragons Crown have options for other types of female characters (the Elf for example; modestly designed and less offensive then the other female characters). Japan is learning, but its taking slower for them in comparison to the west due to the games appealing JP gamers, thus giving them less push to make the games having less fan-service.
Sorry this post is long XD! Edit: To back up a few of my points and to explain my points in greater detail, check out this YouTube video from the great Gaijin Gomba.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI55CyoPsVU
Over the years, both the West and Japan have had issues with female representation in games, but recent years due to the gaming climate changing thanks to people calling that crap out, more and more modern western games have been doing a much better job with their female characters.
There designs are far less offensive then in the past, they have been in leading roles more (Tomb Raider, Remember Me, Transistor, Mirrors Edge PS4/X1, Horizon Zero Dawn, ect) alongside having more major roles in games (Gears 4, AC Unity, Dragon Age Inquisition, ect). So while the issue is still present in western games, it has been getting better honestly
. Japan....they haven't changed at all :l. We still have JP games that don't use fan-service like Kingdom Hearts, many JP games like using fan-service and have 'exaggerated' female designs. Team Ninja games were the exception rather than the rule, but even something like DOA is tame in comparison to more recent JP series (the SK series, various games banned on Gaf, Sword Art Online Hollow Fragment, ect).
The thing is that Japan isn't that bothered with sexuality; it seems like they are more open to that concept and like to celebrate it a lot more then it is in the west (explaining games like DOA and SK).
The problem is that the west isn't nearly as open to sexuality next to Japan, leading to culture-clash when overly sexual JP games get localized (noticeably so in recent years); western gamers react in a toxic way to the product and it ends up leading to people trashing the game due to its image or it outright banned from discussion.
Personally, I don't mind games with heavy fan-service if the game is high quality gameplay/story/design wise but it can bother me though (wasn't a huge fan of the fan-service in the SAO games at times....). But I'm not everybody; a large number of people are bothered by this and Japan-developed games should consider ways to counter-act those elements for people that are offended by them.
Optional 'censored' mode that gamers can pick from the start, male characters having the same fan-service as female characters (in the case of something like Dead or Alive); taking measures to make the games more inviting to people.
And some of them are already doing this, as the SK:EF has an option to disable the cloth tearing for people that are bothered by it (same with Neptuina: Action Unleashed), SK2 is having male characters join the roster, and even games far back like Dragons Crown have options for other types of female characters (the Elf for example; modestly designed and less offensive then the other female characters). Japan is learning, but its taking slower for them in comparison to the west due to the games appealing JP gamers, thus giving them less push to make the games having less fan-service.
Sorry this post is long XD! Edit: To back up a few of my points and to explain my points in greater detail, check out this YouTube video from the great Gaijin Gomba
. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI55CyoPsVU
CambriaRising
Member
Wolfenstein: The New Order
No interest in arguing, I just like bringing that game up whenever I can.
Meaningful depictions of human relations would likely involve a lot of narrative/dialogue. Narrative heavy games already bare the stigma of "not being games" even in enthusiast forums like this one. There is a big lack of what you're asking for, but then there would be because generally people are asking for a game, not a book.
To the article, being annoyed at the existence of niche sleazy games that aren't even attempting in any way shape or form to be tasteful is pointless. If what CD or Naughty Dog or Bethesda are doing isn't up to par for people's expectations, hound them. They're the ones with the budget and ambition to actually want to match this maturity people crave.
Obliterator
Member
That is 100% A OK and never let anyone tell you differently.
You don'thave to enjoy the same types of games as everyone else. The genre doesn't need to consist soley of "grown up mature games"
Liking big ol boobies katanas and laser headed shit is fine. Let's have both. Give me some Last of Us and Gone Home and let me follow it up with a side of Senran Kagura baby
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Yes, it's pretty subjective, but could you at least attempt to give a few examples of games that you think handle sexuality in an intelligent way before accusing me of "always changing my standards"?
Gaming is the only one of those mediums that is significantly interactive by design. It is significantly harder (not impossible, just harder) to write a narrative or complex relationships if you have to factor in player input. The best way to do it would be with straight up dating sims and visual novels but those never seemed particularly popular genres on either side of the Pacific. It would be interesting to see some dating sims and visual novels with actual grown ass men and women with some actually realistic sexual relationships but will people actually buy it?
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
SMH. I just saw Fifty Shades of Grey. Film as a medium really needs to develop into an art form already.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This is something that is very often overlooked. Some might argue that it's gotten even worse in Japan due to the shift to mobile gaming and reliance on niche audiences.....This is an issue Japan itself has to deal with honestly :l.
Over the years, both the West and Japan have had issues with female representation in games, but recent years due to the gaming climate changing thanks to people calling that crap out, more and more modern western games have been doing a much better job with their female characters.
There designs are far less offensive then in the past, they have been in leading roles more (Tomb Raider, Remember Me, Transistor, Mirrors Edge PS4/X1, Horizon Zero Dawn, ect) alongside having more major roles in games (Gears 4, AC Unity, Dragon Age Inquisition, ect). So while the issue is still present in western games, it has been getting better honestly
Japan....they haven't changed at all :l. We still have JP games that don't use fan-service like Kingdom Hearts, many JP games like using fan-service and have 'exaggerated' female designs. Team Ninja games were the exception rather than the rule, but even something like DOA is tame in comparison to more recent JP series (the SK series, various games banned on Gaf, Sword Art Online Hollow Fragment, ect). !
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Then play one of the many, many games that won't have them? Why are you acting like other games will suddenly disappear? Art house films didn't make Hollywood Blockbusters go away. There is no reason to assume that well written video games will suddenly make the Call Of Dutys and the Just Causes of the industry go away.
Shit, even I don't want to play well written narrative games ALL OF THE TIME, but it should be there for when people want to.
You're essentially saying you don't want these types of games to exist because you personally don't want to play them.
OniBarubary
Banned
Allow me to immediately destroy any respect and good will you may have had for me as the creator of that thread by saying that not only do I not have problems with games like this existing, but I buy and play them too. I have Monster Monpiece, Criminal Girls, Senran Kagura games and if this comes out in America then this guy too.
While one could do a deep look into them, exploring some interesting reasoning behind it and such, this is not that article. Fringe elements of a...thing, for lack of a better term, can indicate certain things about the whole but should never be used to draw very specific conclusions about it. You can certainly use games like these to say something about how video games are heading but the fact that they are niche is very important. Should they still be discussed? Of course. But don't pretend that a medium is infantile when the reach and draw of these looked down upon games is around 10,000 copies where a game that is pushing the medium forward like a Last of Us or Gone Home or Everybody's Gone to the Rapture are selling galactically more copies and getting drastically more press and coverage. Their impact upon the gamescape is miniscule and almost non-existent at best. If sex sells it certainly isn't doing a good job of it. I think the appeal and reasoning behind the visual and thematic (tittyfuck items to identify them) parts of games like this are worth discussing. I think that what it says about Japan and it's current culture is much more damning and a very complicated topic.
But examination, retrospection and critique of something doesn't mean it shouldn't exist or that some enjoyment can't be derived from it. The appeal of teasing sexuality, non-nudity and the like, is a whole can of worms that could be opened up. It's not as easy as "just watch some fucking porn you shitty pedophiles" as some eloquent posters have put it. Sexuality is an enormous complicated beast and isn't as simple as "look at people fuck and spank it out" There are entire fetishes that don't even involve physical contact. That's also of course assuming that people are playing these games to get their jollies off. Which...I am willing to bet hard money the majority do not. And not a small percent above majority, I'm talking over 90%. Let's conduct a poll on here and ask everyone posting in the Omega Labyrinth thread how often they plan to masturbate to any of the characters. There are very strong arguments regarding visual appeal and objectification, of well-fleshed characters and eye candy. But it's not anywhere here.
It also doesn't mean that playing a game like this allows you to instantly sum up the existence of a person based on your assumptions. People are capable of many things, often contradictory and often multi-faceted. You can't just see an anime avatar and go "well of course, I bet they jack off to lolicon and would rape a toddler if they could."
So let's throw myself on the funeral pyre here. I'll buy this game. And I'll play it. And I feel absolutely no shame in doing so. I find the idea of a breast expansion RPG to be hilarious and enjoy dungeon crawlers. I like the aesthetic designs and find the characters cute or attractive. I'm sure as a budget title there'll be a lot of eyerolling and low volume to ignore bad voice acting as well as dealing with mediocreish combat possibly. Tittyfucking items to identify them actually made me laugh out loud and go "for real?" and increase the odds of me buying this because of the ridiculous premise.
And guess what? That means absolutely fuck-all about me as a person. I am many things. I can enjoy my cheesecake. I can also have written my College Thesis on Hemingway's Hills Like White Elephants and maintained it at a 3.8. I can own Gone Home at the same time as Hyperdimension Neptunia, can make my Lisa thread and want people to experience a truly great and emotional narrative and at the same time play Crypt of the Necrodancer tonight. I've Kickstartered as many games as I could with trans protagonists, heavyset female protagonists, games without violence, games about struggles white people have never had to deal with, the list goes on. I have shelves upon shelves of books with titles by James Morrow next to the aformentioned Hemingway sitting beside a Harry Potter book leaning against Margaret Atwood. I can have an entire section of my shelf dedicated to African Science Fiction and Fantasy authors sitting right above my copy of Ready Player One (in my defense, it seemed interesting). I can go out to the bar with my friends and hit on some cute girl with shaved sides and blue hair after being out of the game from a 7 year relationship and get shot down congenially and with a laugh and "oh well" I can run my own business for two year and after it failing go back to stocking groceries until my next idea comes to fruition. It is possible for people like this to exist, for the summation of your entire being not to be "has an anime avatar and posted in a thread saying he liked Monster Monpiece"
As such I don't believe the existence of these games destroys an entire medium or worsens it. It is just part of it like anything else, and not even a big or influential part of it. And enjoying it doesn't make you a monster or a bad person. And I don't think it means gaming hasn't matured. There is no way in the five hells that the existence of these games is preventing other, better and more properly handled (in relation to themes, narrative or such) from coming out or being made. These games aren't sucking up the funds to make the next Gone Home and they're certainly not killing the audience that exists to play those games.
That's all.
Zambayoshi
Member
Different strokes for different folks. Some people like the teasing more than the actual reveal. Omega Labyrinth would exist even if more openly sexual alternatives were available. Titillation has been around forever.
Obliterator
Member
There should be serious, well written, mature games. See Gone Home. Bro's I damn near cried during that game. Yes I know I'm a sissy.
But there should also be some silly dumb fun, and yes slightly pervy stuff like Senran Kagura and Onechanhoweverthefuckyouspellit zombie hack n slash.
Going to far to the extreme on either side is following the rabbit hole. Life is about balance
But there should also be some silly dumb fun, and yes slightly pervy stuff like Senran Kagura and Onechanhoweverthefuckyouspellit zombie hack n slash.
Going to far to the extreme on either side is following the rabbit hole. Life is about balance
A+ post. Good shit.
KuroPyonyo
Banned
I'm totally with you, those more serious games (like last of us or gone home) should exists and I will just happily ignore those.
But nearly everytime we get something thats just dumb fun there will be forum posters and journalist crying about those oh so evil games that should just go away (and in the case of DOAX they were succesfull).
Instead of just ignoring those titles that were clearly not meant for them.
A nice bonus is of course getting called a pedophile, that's real classy.
See above.
I agree. But everything will be difficult at the start. That's what evolution is all about right? All it takes is a few geniuses to figure it out and get the ball rolling. Then everyone will adopt and iterate.
The issue, as you point out in your conclusion, is that there is barely any demand for it. No one will try and solve a problem if the majority doesn't even recognize it to be a problem, as is quite evident in this thread.
SamusPrime
Banned
Yes.
Obliterator
Member
The point is not everything needs to be tasteful. Porn isn't tasteful. And yet through studies an unbelievable amount of people consume quite a bit of it.
Humanity is a lot less "tasteful" than we like to put on in public. Sometimes its ok to look at a boobie or ripped ass dudes six pack.
Make sure you look at the butts though. Male or female we got it going on.
Blu-Ray as a form of media is an open platform much like PC is for gaming. Consoles, on the other hand, are closed platforms and require approval from the first-party to make. Sony, MS, Nintendo, and Valve do not want to be associated with porn so they reject approval for any game with porn in it.
We're getting at a point that it's the other way around with Japanese RPGs - it'd be cool to have some tasteful ones!
Some of them (like Dungeon Travelers 2) actually are, but some people who refuse to step outside of their comfort zone will never believe it regardless.
We're getting at a point that it's the other way around with Japanese RPGs - it'd be cool to have some tasteful ones!
If you want tasteful JRPGs, there's stuff like Persona 5, Trails in the Sky SC/Cold Steel, Tales of Zestiria, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Legend of Legacy, etc. releasing later this year
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