Dogville is an arthouse movie imitating a black box theater to put focus on its point. It's also pretty much the film equivalent of a small developer's indie game. Also appears to be the exception that proves the rule.
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USGamer: Gaming's Never-Ending Adolescence (about Omega Labyrinth and sex)
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Dogville is an arthouse movie imitating a black box theater to put focus on its point. It's also pretty much the film equivalent of a small developer's indie game. Also appears to be the exception that proves the rule.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
But also means is posible to do it. (thought should I mention that I agree with you about video game stories need to found their positive from be more video gamey than trying to be films)
In all honesty, I *do* buy some of them (even some of if/compiles crap!). I totally don't mind sexual content in my media, but there is definitely a point where it does get absolutely embarrassing, and this game seems to go past that point.
Also, an important thing a lot of people are forgetting is that Parish actually was an early champion in the gaming media for the revival of the dungeon crawling genre as a viable niche. I don't blame him for being disappointed that it is becoming a dumping ground for games that are pushing hard on risqué content.
He didn't write inflammatory tweets and articles alleging that people who like niche JRPGs and anime might be pedophiles, for one thing.
ShinMaruku
Member
You might not see it as a muddy discussion but other just simply don't want to have that discussion or you can have good points, but your delivery of those points can cause retrenching.
I think he could have had a better discussion that starting off with the usual suspects of "Japanese games are made for deviants" starting off like that garentees you are gonna get backlash.
But my main issue is with "Games are better than this, we need our medium to grow up" like things will change in a period of time acceptable.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
....This is an issue Japan itself has to deal with honestly :l.
Over the years, both the West and Japan have had issues with female representation in games, but recent years due to the gaming climate changing thanks to people calling that crap out, more and more modern western games have been doing a much better job with their female characters.
There designs are far less offensive then in the past, they have been in leading roles more (Tomb Raider, Remember Me, Transistor, Mirrors Edge PS4/X1, Horizon Zero Dawn, ect) alongside having more major roles in games (Gears 4, AC Unity, Dragon Age Inquisition, ect). So while the issue is still present in western games, it has been getting better honestly.
The trade-off is there are far more games distinctly aimed at girls and the fujoshi market is thriving. What you listed are still primarily aimed at guys even if the representation of their female characters is far better.
Riposte
Member
Demoskinos
Member
I really don't see how the game is embarrassing though. The concept is so absurd that its just comical. Its just like manyuu hikenchou. I think a lot of people are taking this game way way to seriously.
Exactly. People complain about stuff like Criminal Girls, but ignore the existence of games like KLAP that pander just as heavily to fujoshi.
Just hearing about the game makes it sound silly and dumb sure, but it speaks volumes that a lot of the people who had been defending the game on a conceptual level in the other thread started to peace out as more screen shots started to come out.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
But why caring? Personal issues aside, saying that the game is dishonest when being complety aware of why it happens and what would be the other options seems as dishonest to me.
You said that "look at CIRCLE, doing well on their own small releases" but at the same time feels hollow given that I doubt that they care less what others are doing.
And in that regard, is a very personal problem to Parish but not exactly everyone will agree with. At that point is tempting to say to him "do a Seth Killian and do you own dungeon crawler".
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Ok then, I honestly am curious about how successful a triple A game purely about romance that tackles the subject well and has good writing and characters that act like actual people would be. Or even Indie games, a thing about romance in films is that romance usually isn't the only thing the plot is about either, it's the end goal, and a large aspect of the plot is focused on it, but there's always subplots. I feel that that can be done in games too.
ShinMaruku
Member
Yup, you can't expect something to grow when people involved are childish in many ways.
I don't think the industry at large is ready to get to that point and expecting them to reach those points in this current era is just silly.Romance doesn't need to be straight up dating sim to feel genuine in games, we have plenty of examples of successful romances that feel incredibly genuine and aren't poorly written at that. Nor do you need to sacrifice user input
Two recent examples
^ Silent protagonist yet still feels more real than so many other efforts in gaming.
If games are gonna tackle these things then yes they do need to get better at doing so, we should move past the point where romance in the game feels like a b-movie/anime.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I'm adding fuel to the fire, but I'd argue that trying to prevent a discussion from happening is closer to censorship.
Reading that old thread about his other article on the same subject, not the first time he does the pedo comparison :
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
( If he calls me a pedo, can I call him one back? )
To be fair, it is meant to be more of a guideline than a hard rule. Someone who truly understands how to use the medium of video games to tell a good story also understands if and when taking away the trappings of video games like interactivity would help the story that's being told, much like Dogville as a film takes away the trapping of film to help tell its story. That also counts as taking advantage of the medium of video games.
The premise is bullshit though. There's porn, and then there's fanservice. This distinction is by no means unique to games and it exists for a reason. Some people like fanservice that isn't porn. So "why not just do porn" is a pretty dumb question. "Ecchi" is it's own genre in Japan, and most of its fans are adults who are allowed to and also consume porn.
Witcher is also a completely idiotic comparison because Omega Labyrinth and Witcher don't even try to achieve the same thing from the get go. No, Witcher doesn't "do it better" - they do something entirely different. The "it" isn't the same.
So basically: Fanservice is a thing that exists because some people like it. It is what it is. It's not supposed to be mature. Just ignore it if you don't like, because it's not going away and complaining about it is pointless and entitled.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I just think they use captivation wrong. They want to captivate on the sex element like it needs to be a pillar. "Here we are now and here are some boobs". Integrate it a bit more, do more with the fact that we are born sexual, we all discover it differently, and it's not always straight forward. Even porn has categories and people prefer to express it differently.
TV does some things right because they have a 28 minute or less block to do whatever they want. They have affairs, they get murdered in the bedroom, and they talk way more about sexual crimes. Video games are still an achievement because it takes a lot to make a video game. They are limited because they want to make all that money back. God of War did well because nothing else did that and succeeded. It is still being talked about, much like GTA is at any public forum about video game violence and also various first person shooters.
The sex with joy sticks doesn't need to be applied, but video games again are self defining themselves by what you come across.
We don't all need a Brood Mother from Dragon Age either. I'm just saying deal with it without worrying about going over board.
LA Noir had a child molester, but it was just a dull moment. You didn't feel any fear and it was like, "okay special agent let's question him". It just boils down to how well they can express everything.
Vincent Grayson
Member
I honestly suspect at this point that the porn industry is more likely to make a legitimately good and resonating game about sex before the games industry will.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
I don't think Parish is claiming that all people who like niche JRPGs and anime are probable pedophiles. I mean, he's a big fan of niche JRPGs such as Etrian Odyssey, for example. He's talking about a specific kind of JRPG - fan-service focused ones. And as other types of JRPGs diminish, it's only natural that fanservice-oriented JRPGs will attract more attention from people who have been longtime fans of the genre. It's unreasonable to expect that no one will have issues with the sexualization of young female characters that goes on in them.
It's not Parish who has suddenly changed; it's the industry that has changed.
Gracious, did he just make an article based on twitter reaction he get and started calling out those people as pedophile?
smh
If anything, Romance should be perfect for interactive medium. For a romance to be good, it needs 1) a good writing 2) two way reactivity. The problem is, the current video game industry is lacking on those two side. Game story and writing is neglected so often besides the dedicated one like Obsidian and inXile. As for two reactivity, this somehow take the power out of from the player, a something that many video game player didn't like. Extra Credit have covered this matter on Romance in their video and it's pretty good. Watching it makes me realize how too many games try to gives agency to the player too much at the cost of the NPC's own agency.
And continuing from my above response, this is another problem that a romance focused game will be faced, It's quite sad state of affair since only few people realized that there are massive difference between just read and read then act.
Sadly people prefer dichotomous line of think. It is easier that way.
Twitter is a mistake.
But that doesn't justify his behavior.
I know he's frustated. He want the genre he loved to change but c'mon, name calling and "pedophiles" at that? Isn't mature people the one who can compose themselves and not resorting to petty thing out of their frustation?
Heheh, this is so great. It's such an Occam's razor to the ridiculous assumption that we can't have dumb, stupid games, as if there weren't space for all types (as OniB pointed out) without a single oddity somehow ruining things, let alone an extreme niche game like the subject of Parish's ire. A lot of his writing is wonderful, but I sense that he's still influenced by a certain part of the conservative atmosphere of his childhood environment that he otherwise has long since left behind.
Bingo. Reminds me of that heroically shitty anti-Dragon's Crown attack article Kotaku put up a few years ago.
Drac84
Member
The article made claims about the wider industry's approach to sex and nudity by highlighting extreme Japanese niche titles with a token reference to mass effect's awkward sex scenes throw in to boot. It's like saying 'literature has problems representing sex realistically' and then highlighting 50 Shades of Grey, Bared to You and Crescendo to prove your point.
Comfort Jones
Banned
"I don't necessarily want games like Omega Labyrinth to go away... I just think it's time for them to grow up, you know?"
I honestly cringe a bit at statements like this. When you say it's time for them to grow up you're ABSOLUTELY saying you want them to "go away". Just fuckin admit it. So tired of these critics making sweeping claims about things they find "problematic" and then refusing to admit they don't want certain things to go away completely.
Also kinda insane and goofy to me how the big example the author is pointing to is a niche game aimed at perverts.
I honestly cringe a bit at statements like this. When you say it's time for them to grow up you're ABSOLUTELY saying you want them to "go away". Just fuckin admit it. So tired of these critics making sweeping claims about things they find "problematic" and then refusing to admit they don't want certain things to go away completely.
Also kinda insane and goofy to me how the big example the author is pointing to is a niche game aimed at perverts.
That doesn't excuse him saying that shit. I enjoy games like Criminal Girls and Dungeon Travelers 2, but I also play other JRPGs like Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Tales, Legend of Heroes etc. Just because he doesn't like a subset of the genre doesn't mean he should shit on people who do. I lost a lot of respect for him after reading his recent writings.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's funny that many people can make claim how a medium or something have problem by deriving from a small example of bad things, but not the reverse. One bad game will destroy the industry but a particularly a good wouldn't save it.
Romance is tricky to do in any medium. And honestly I have no idea how you can get it to work outside of linear written storylines, because "player choice" (which is the "in" thing now) would make that a nightmare. It's why Bioware romances are often and rightfully mocked. Not to say Japanese are good at romance, heck, I've yet to see any Japanese romances that have not felt incredibly awkward, especially when acted out by their VA's.
In the end though, it comes down to economics. You're going to want to target the audience that is spending the money, else you risk spending thousands (or millions) on a game which gets no ROI, and you're fucked. Right now, the biggest audience spending money on "traditional" games, are, well, the types of people these games are marketed towards.
I'm not talking about mobile/social "Whales" who only are into "Loot" and "Battle" games, so there's no way those spenders would be interested in this sort of thing.
It's one of the big issues that mobile has made now with an even greater consumer audience throwing millions at cheap awful looking games just for "bragging" rights or gambling "gachas".
In the end though, it comes down to economics. You're going to want to target the audience that is spending the money, else you risk spending thousands (or millions) on a game which gets no ROI, and you're fucked. Right now, the biggest audience spending money on "traditional" games, are, well, the types of people these games are marketed towards.
I'm not talking about mobile/social "Whales" who only are into "Loot" and "Battle" games, so there's no way those spenders would be interested in this sort of thing.
It's one of the big issues that mobile has made now with an even greater consumer audience throwing millions at cheap awful looking games just for "bragging" rights or gambling "gachas".
Who said it needs to try and be a movie? This is the most overused strawman argument I see around this topic. NOBODY wants games be like movies. There is already a medium for that. It's called movies.
But movies are the closest comparison we can make since it is a visual medium that involves storytelling as well. It's difficult to have a conversation about improving something if we aren't allowed to mention other similar things that we can learn from.
Also, movies learnt a LOT from theater, because theater predated movies. Games can learn a lot from movies and theater for the very same reason. Let's not mix up inspiration, evolution and expansion with imitation.
What's wrong with "juvenile" entertainment if that is the target demographic? Prepubescent boys/teen boys love this sort of stuff. That is an indisputable fact of human history. Budding men are curious about sex; thus, seek out products with sex to satisfy curiosity.
These products are perceived as distasteful because, well, you grew up. Remember what it was like to be 11-15.
These products are perceived as distasteful because, well, you grew up. Remember what it was like to be 11-15.
Let's say he replaced those examples with dozens of other examples of western games that handle the topic very poorly that all of us know about. Wouldn't that make the exact same claims valid? I feel like we are missing the forest for the trees here. The point being proven isn't that the gaming equivalent of 50 shades of grey exists, but that a majority of the content out there that pertains to the subject fails to rise above it.
mikespit1200
Member
This was my beef as well. It's fine if the art style makes him feel icky. I think he's a squeamish nancy for feeling that, but that's his right. As stated there's plenty of games that provide what he's asking for. He wants to label a bunch of stuff he doesn't like as immature but stops well short of calling for censorship. It's just another bullshit "think piece" that spends 1500 words really not saying anything at all.
YianGaruga
Banned
Here's hoping the added exposure of the article helps the game getting localized. Yeah I'm a "pervert" and that's fine. Who cares. Everyone is weird in some way.
There absolutely should be more games that handle sexuality in other ways, but that article is one of the worst ways to approach the subject. You won't get my support by trying to shame me for what I like and shitting on things that aren't made for you (and you seemingly don't even understand)
success!
There absolutely should be more games that handle sexuality in other ways, but that article is one of the worst ways to approach the subject. You won't get my support by trying to shame me for what I like and shitting on things that aren't made for you (and you seemingly don't even understand)
success!
The stigma of "linear" game being bad is already a problematic in itself. Does a game with a lot of events that triggered by different criteria considered as linear? Romance is not a something that you could easily get in and get out. There are a lot of numerous emotional factor that involved. The notion that linearity is what make romance game couldn't work is a problem in itself. Most people who play game don't like to be put into situation which their agency are taken, then must pick a choice of from limited set of option. Which is just real life, and people don't like being reminded of that somehow in their video game despite the industry keep chasing visual fidelity.
That being said, good romance game is abound to be a 'linear' experience. What makes it difference is reactivity. This game needs to provide a numerous of action to take, different event and situation that could happened. But this is very ambitious and need a fucktons of writing effort to do, a something that the video game industry in general pretty lacking.
Horizon pls
I'm surprised that you didn't know this game earlier.
I totally agree. "I'm don't necessarily want.....but" is the weakest kind of statement to make. And I mean, I get his point. I've played Hyperdimension Neptunia ActionU or whatever it's called, I see all of the fan service. But, I feel that the developer should be allowed to make the game that they want to. If the publisher wants them to include that "repellant coating" or whatever term he used, then out with it, but if that's the vision the dev team had, they should go with it.
If this is true, I wonder what Parish envisioned a market for a "viable niche" genre being like. It's definitely understandable that he would be frustrated. I just can't help but think that, if these companies weren't making games in these genres like this (i.e. in a way that pander to subcultures who actually buy these games), they just wouldn't be making games in these genres at all. Maybe that's what he really wants though. *shrug*
and also mid budget games like the latest work from the art director of Nocturne
or this bit of fun from the chief designer of SMT3
and when it comes to higher budget stuff god only knows what the director of third birthday will find a way to include in FF15
the thing about all this is that no one would care about these stupid pervo games if they stayed in their lane as they did in earlier generations. But because the traditional Japanese game industry has collapsed, people have to reckon with all the stuff that was formerly ghettoized, and so that's obviously going to cause tensions for those of us who have IRL significant others and not body pillow significant others.
People will say to just ignore it but ignoring it doesn't work and hasn't worked, at this point if you are a fan of RPGs from Japan this junk is everywhere at all budget levels. Parish is honestly too generous in this piece, there's nothing wrong with calling out smut as smut and saying people should keep that shit to themselves, nobody wants to hear you talk about your fetishes in public. if we're at the point where folks are unabashedly honest about the skeeve they want, it's past time for the rest of us to speak up too. They've got a limitless appetite and are pretty happy watching it spread into all kinds of RPGs, so there shouldn't be an issue with us openly advocating for the opposite. It's not really the kind of thing where a compromise is possible.
finally, jeremy for the love of jesus, never listen to the mooks shrieking dumb shit at you, plz continue writing for the silent majority that actually gets you. to put it in tumblr terms leave them squawking behind like you're maggie and they're ziyi
WickedLaharl
Member
I think i'll stay in my comfort zone free of sexulized images of children
ShinMaruku
Member
Both extremes are bad certainly.I'm adding fuel to the fire, but I'd argue that trying to prevent a discussion from happening is closer to censorship.
You know they can't come out and outright say that. Meaning is very clear but they don't want to be labeled as somebody who wants it gone. Not sure of Praish is one of those but man of those who call those games 'problematic' are just saying these games should not exist in some way. He did it a bit better than some because he's saying it's a shame. But I have issue with that because he's implying the game would be better recieved without that. I don't think the game would be recieved better just on the mechanics given because it would still suffer form the weird Japanese game stigma.
Hyperzephyrian
Banned
It's gotten to the point where I'd rather blind myself with a spoon than read another article about some combination of women/sexuality and gaming, written by yet another writer who probably majored in communications, and definitely isn't an expert in fucking anything. It's not news, it's not an informative piece by someone involved in psychology or mass media or something. No. It's an editorial. Again. Remember when journalism meant news? Me neither; that was so long ago, they probably didn't even have Twitter then. What savages. I bet they were all bigots, too.
I used to think this type of article was just a wide discussion that was being fanned by the flames of controversy. Now I think it's something else. I think it's a prayer. It's like a genuflection when you pass the altar in a church. What's that? Video games and sex organs in the same thought? Let me write an article about how juvenile the medium is. There we go. The ritual is complete. The gods have been appeased. Amen.
I used to think this type of article was just a wide discussion that was being fanned by the flames of controversy. Now I think it's something else. I think it's a prayer. It's like a genuflection when you pass the altar in a church. What's that? Video games and sex organs in the same thought? Let me write an article about how juvenile the medium is. There we go. The ritual is complete. The gods have been appeased. Amen.
I don't even want to play Omega Labyrinth, I think it looks dumb.
I don't think so, more like there's two discussions. One about wanting greater interactivity, better narrative, and more social interaction to flesh out relations, and another conversation about how specific cheesecake content made with the express purpose of titillating the user should 'grow up.' We should expect more from the medium at large, but placing those expectations on very low brow games with very blatant goals is unrealistic.
Really nice point there. It is unrealistic as it is silly.
Good point. Devs gotta eat, and aparently otaku pervs have plenty of disposable income while also being way into niche dungeon crawlers. Thanks for keeping my Vita alive
I agree on one hand that it's fine for people to say they don't like something (although "it's past time"? lmao as if people were ever restraining their opinions on anything), but what do you actually expect to happen by voicing your complaints? You even say yourself that the traditional games industry has collapsed in Japan.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
In his recent blog post, Parish doesn't even call anyone a "pedophile"; while he does remark that Omega Labyrinth contains "child molestation", that seems to be a statement of fact based on my understanding of the game. (Though I haven't followed it too closely, so correct me if I am mistaken.)
Now I disagree with the basic premise of Parish's USGamer article - calling for fanservice games to become straight-up explicit porn is missing the point when the audience for them isn't looking for explicit porn - and he tries to generalize to the gaming industry at large when it's clear his issue is principally with the shrinking market of traditional console Japanese gaming that is increasingly made up of otaku-oriented games. But I can sympathize with his frustration. People who get defensive over games like Omega Labyrinth or Criminal Girls should try to consider what the sexual scenes of those games look like to people not steeped in their particular subculture.
and also mid budget games like the latest work from the art director of Nocturne
or this bit of fun from the chief designer of SMT3
and when it comes to higher budget stuff god only knows what the director of third birthday will find a way to include in FF15
the thing about all this is that no one would care about these stupid pervo games if they stayed in their lane as they did in earlier generations. But because the traditional Japanese game industry has collapsed, people have to reckon with all the stuff that was formerly ghettoized, and so that's obviously going to cause tensions for those of us who have IRL significant others and not body pillow significant others.
People will say to just ignore it but ignoring it doesn't work and hasn't worked, at this point if you are a fan of RPGs from Japan this junk is everywhere at all budget levels. Parish is honestly too generous in this piece, there's nothing wrong with calling out smut as smut and saying people should keep that shit to themselves, nobody wants to hear you talk about your fetishes in public. if we're at the point where folks are unabashedly honest about the skeeve they want, it's past time for the rest of us to speak up too. They've got a limitless appetite and are pretty happy watching it spread into all kinds of RPGs, so there shouldn't be an issue with us openly advocating for the opposite. It's not really the kind of thing where a compromise is possible.
finally, jeremy for the love of jesus, never listen to the mooks shrieking dumb shit at you, plz continue writing for the silent majority that actually gets you. to put it in tumblr terms leave them squawking behind like you're maggie and they're ziyi
Heaven forbid publishers cater to people who actual buy home console/handheld games in Japan that aren't targeted at kids these days, because the otaku at least actually buy things. And since you're so keen on mentioning the SMT staff I'm sure you're aware of the penis demons and other sexual elements that have been in the series forever.
I hope you didn't buy Tales of Hearts R then.
We can agree on that. I feel that people are harping too much on the latter and refuse to acknowledge the former. The points being raised in the article can be applied just as well to several mainstream games with not so blatant goals. Don't you agree?
Case in point:
and also mid budget games like the latest work from the art director of Nocturne
or this bit of fun from the chief designer of SMT3
and when it comes to higher budget stuff god only knows what the director of third birthday will find a way to include in FF15
the thing about all this is that no one would care about these stupid pervo games if they stayed in their lane as they did in earlier generations. But because the traditional Japanese game industry has collapsed, people have to reckon with all the stuff that was formerly ghettoized, and so that's obviously going to cause tensions for those of us who have IRL significant others and not body pillow significant others.
People will say to just ignore it but ignoring it doesn't work and hasn't worked, at this point if you are a fan of RPGs from Japan this junk is everywhere at all budget levels. Parish is honestly too generous in this piece, there's nothing wrong with calling out smut as smut and saying people should keep that shit to themselves, nobody wants to hear you talk about your fetishes in public. if we're at the point where folks are unabashedly honest about the skeeve they want, it's past time for the rest of us to speak up too. They've got a limitless appetite and are pretty happy watching it spread into all kinds of RPGs, so there shouldn't be an issue with us openly advocating for the opposite. It's not really the kind of thing where a compromise is possible.
finally, jeremy for the love of jesus, never listen to the mooks shrieking dumb shit at you, plz continue writing for the silent majority that actually gets you. to put it in tumblr terms leave them squawking behind like you're maggie and they're ziyi
Which is why the author brought up Mass Effect, so that the subject doesn't stay within a niche. But people dismissed it here as "lip service" so that they don't have to deal with the broader topic at hand.
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