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USGamer: Gaming's Never-Ending Adolescence (about Omega Labyrinth and sex)

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We're getting at a point that it's the other way around with Japanese RPGs - it'd be cool to have some tasteful ones! :p

Now that I can agree with 100%. Japan seems to be full on boobs mode even more than they used to be. There is some hope on the horizon though with stuff like KH3 and I was about to say FFXV but then remembered the girl with the booty shorts and cowboy hat lol.

Damn yeah now I think about it Japan really is no holds barred into softcore in their games.

Edit: Ah the post above me called out some nice examples. Good job yo
 

Crocodile

Member
We're getting at a point that it's the other way around with Japanese RPGs - it'd be cool to have some tasteful ones! :p

Not really. We (NeoGaf, the gaming media) just like to talk about these titles for some reason and give them more attention than they deserve. I feel like if we actually put this under the lens of a statistical analysis, things would be a lot less "dire" than people believe
 
Not really. We (NeoGaf, the gaming media) just like to talk about these titles for some reason and give them more attention than they deserve. I feel like if we actually put this under the lens of a statistical analysis, things would be a lot less "dire" than people believe

That's his shtick though, surprised he didn't say he wanted the game censored.
 
Every month there's a game coming out that just makes me laugh as it ticks off every checkbox for a new Vita game.

Can't wait for the paragraphs in a few months about how it's actually really a good game guys, I don't actually play it for the boobies, yadda yadda.

Is nice see you interested in this games.

We're getting at a point that it's the other way around with Japanese RPGs - it'd be cool to have some tasteful ones! :p

Well, Japan industry is not exactly healty right now. At one point is a little unfair to demand small devs studios to do stuff that a segment of its western audiences found 'tasteful'.
 
And so it begins.

Not entirely sure how to feel, but at least it's not masquerading as something that it really isn't.

Being immature isn't a crime.
 

RM8

Member
If you want tasteful JRPGs, there's stuff like Persona 5, Trails in the Sky SC/Cold Steel, Tales of Zestiria, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Legend of Legacy, etc. releasing later this year
I'm looking forward to Legend of Legacy! Looks fun, gameplay-focused, tasteful, and has a frog :]

Now that I can agree with 100%. Japan seems to be full on boobs mode even more than they used to be. There is some hope on the horizon though with stuff like KH3 and I was about to say FFXV but then remembered the girl with the booty shorts and cowboy hat lol.

Damn yeah now I think about it Japan really is no holds barred into softcore in their games.

Edit: Ah the post above me called out some nice examples. Good job yo
Yeah, not everything is lost. This year I got Code Name STEAM, Etrian Mystery Dungeon (I'm not into Etrian Odyssey, but I was told this was fanservice-free and I'm a sucker for Mystery Dungeon games), and the upcoming Legend of Legacy. Plus super obscure stuff like Mercenaries Saga 2, and the super non-obscure stuff like the new Pokémon Mystery Dungeon :p Plus I want to get into Monster Hunter.

Not really. We (NeoGaf, the gaming media) just like to talk about these titles for some reason and give them more attention than they deserve. I feel like if we actually put this under the lens of a statistical analysis, things would be a lot less "dire" than people believe
I'm just extra salty about this trend because of Fire Emblem's shift to pandering, I guess :p

Well, Japan industry is not exactly healty right now. At one point is a little unfair to demand small devs studios to do stuff that a segment of its western audiences found 'tasteful'.
I find Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Pokémon or Yo-kai Watch quite tasteful, and those series demolish the otaku games in Japan (let alone the rest of the world).
 

Corpekata

Banned
Some of them (like Dungeon Travelers 2) actually are, but some people who refuse to step outside of their comfort zone will never believe it regardless.



If you want tasteful JRPGs, there's stuff like Persona 5, Trails in the Sky SC/Cold Steel, Tales of Zestiria, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Legend of Legacy, etc. releasing later this year

I've tried a few of them. The only one that's ever been any good was Etrian Odyssey (obviously not a Vita game though), and that series is rather tame on fanservice. I've pretty much put anyone that recommends Demon Gaze on a "Do not believe his lies" list.
 
I find Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Pokémon or Yo-kai Watch quite tasteful, and those series demolish the otaku games in Japan (let alone the rest of the world).

Of course, they are made by big studios and are populer generes, but nice try ignoring the small dev.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
That's his shtick though, surprised he didn't say he wanted the game censored.

I'm fucking tired of this strawman. Every time a thread talks about problematic aspects of games, there's always someone to yell about censorship. Stop it. That's not what it's about, and you're only derailing the discussion.
 
I'm fucking tired of this strawman. Every time a thread talks about problematic aspects of games, there's always someone to yell about censorship. Stop it. That's not what it's about, and you're only derailing the discussion.

I'm not trying a strawman here, he did advocate for censoring in the Fire Emblem threads. You can look if you like.
 

RM8

Member
Of course, they are made by big studios and are populer generes, but nice try ignoring the small dev.
I'm playing this right now:

20150311_002930_thumb.png


Sorry but you don't get smaller than CIRCLE Entertainment - yet they said this game was a big success on 3DS :p Also, Legend of Legacy doesn't strike me as a massive production, either.
 

Game Guru

Member
Are movies required to compromise on other aspects of film making to tell a good story? This notion that gameplay needs to be compromised in order to tell a good story comes from people who are simply afraid of change and refuse to think outside the little box they have defined for the medium. Like it or not, almost every game out there tries to tell some story. It's not too much to ask that they do a better job at it. If that means breaking the status quo and re-evaluating how games are made, then so be it.

No, but movies also don't try to imitate theater when telling their stories. A good story in a video game should take advantage of the fact that it is a video game, and not try to be like a movie.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Sometimes that is exactly what they are implying without out right saying it. Sometimes it is a strawman but in other places, that is exactly what they are saying. "This game would be recived so much better if it had no tits" Meanwhile if it did I don't think it would be picked up.
 
I'm fucking tired of this strawman. Every time a thread talks about problematic aspects of games, there's always someone to yell about censorship. Stop it. That's not what it's about, and you're only derailing the discussion.

How the heck would interpret tha given the article "other option" is "send it to die in the PC adult section of japanese retailers".

No, but movies also don't try to imitate theater when telling their stories. A good story in a video game should take advantage of the fact that it is a video game, and not try to be like a movie.


Dogville

I'm playing this right now:

20150311_002930_thumb.png


Sorry but you don't get smaller than CIRCLE Entertainment - yet they said this game was a big success on 3DS :p Also, Legend of Legacy doesn't strike me as a massive production, either.

So CIRCLE is going to tell everyone how they should make their games?
 
I'm fucking tired of this strawman. Every time a thread talks about problematic aspects of games, there's always someone to yell about censorship. Stop it. That's not what it's about, and you're only derailing the discussion.

Tits in games isn't problematic.

Nothing but tits in the overwhelming majority of games would be problematic. Thats not reality though in the current climate. In fact in Western games this gen its downright rare as hell
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Sometimes that is exactly what they are implying without out right saying it. Sometimes it is a strawman but in other places, that is exactly what they are saying. "This game would be recived so much better if it had no tits" Meanwhile if it did I don't think it would be picked up.

That's... not what censorship is. At all.
 
There are a lot of things I agree; In particular that it feels extra sleazy to include the sexual content there but layered it up with stupid gimmicks. 20 years ago I just assumed that, by now, we'd have gotten over ourselves and open sexual content would be as seemingly natural in film and video games as violence and language is. Sadly no.

I place a ton of blame on the ratings boards, who have entirely unspoken agreements with every major retail outlet, publisher and distributor on earth to effectively ban all games of every agency's highest rating from public consumption. Even if developers all got together and agreed to just get on with it, there's still not going to be any change. The author here can beg and plea with the people who make these games but there's simply no "better" way for them to deliver the kind of experience they're trying to sell. Their hands are tied by regulations beyond their control and are trapped in regulations. That's why all efforts end up looking awkward.

There's a bit of bad faith here in that there's an assumption that game makers don't want to offer different content. Again, their hands are completely tied. I'm sure tons of them would love to offer sexual content in their games more directly were they permitted to, but given they're not, there''s no need to single them out for criticism and ignore other aspects of the problem.
We're getting at a point that it's the other way around with Japanese RPGs - it'd be cool to have some tasteful ones! :p
Not sure if serious. The games being discussed here are niche withing niche within niche. Even lower unit sales than what are already knee-scrape budget JRPGs. There's actually been a good deal of moderation in the more "mainstream" JRPG series the past 5ish years in terms of dialing back extreme content in order to try to appeal to a wider audience.

This is how deep these games are embedded in the system--
"Mainstream" JRPG (FF, DQ) > "Hardcore" JRPG (Persona, Gust IPs) > "Niche" JRPG (Compile Heart, etc) > this stuff. You're looking at an order of magnitude of lower sales at each tier.
 

Nairume

Banned
How the heck would interpret tha given the article "other option" is "send it to die in the PC adult section of japanese retailers".




Dogville
Well

That, or doing something other than having highsch.... 1000 year old dragons titty fucking magic items as one of your main gimmicks.
 

Sandfox

Member
Well this is a hilarious game concept and with the way some people talk you wouldn't think games like this are niche.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Not really. We (NeoGaf, the gaming media) just like to talk about these titles for some reason and give them more attention than they deserve. I feel like if we actually put this under the lens of a statistical analysis, things would be a lot less "dire" than people believe
Depending on the genre? Not really. I do consider myself a fan of JRPGs and it is increasingly hard to find ones that are free of egregious fanservice, especially more specific genres like SJRPG

I will say this year looks a lot better than years past
 

ShinMaruku

Member
That's... not what censorship is. At all.

Asking a developer to remove something that could be viewed as problematic for the sake of being PC is not asking for self censorship. Now mind you I don't think this article is talking about that but I do think some would rather the games not use that art.

Of course it's not straight calling for censorship it's a muddy discussion.

But really my issue with the article is it seems just a bit too pie in the sky, in many respects humanity has not grown up, we have some very silly things perpetuated in culture that are much more problematic than games. What makes anybody think something a young and skittish as the gaming industry would be the first to grow up?
 
Well

That, or doing something other than having highsch.... 1000 year old dragons titty fucking magic items as one of your main gimmicks.

Obviously you have the option of not buy it, hell I don't buy it either but... I mean, for years this forum was snarky to Compile Hearts type games but they have sell and have a fanbase in the west. There is something there that is working and is becoming more useless the sentimient of "man, fucking IdeaFactory games" when is clear that there is an audience.
 

Riposte

Member
That is a huge failure on the medium then. A huge failure.

It's easy to say something is a failure for not doing what you want, but I don't think there's much value in it. I rather think about why things are the way they are rather than go into it with condemning preconceptions. I think the issue is that you are working from the top down. You begin with the idea of "videogames doing things movies (etc.) do" rather than "what are the things games do".

I have to wonder: what does a "pure" romance videogame look like? Most likely a little more than a series of dialogue choices and maybe some small miscellaneous fiddling with the environment (so a dating sim?). At some point it begins to look like additional step to seeing people talk to each other, a laborious method of exchanging information despite the information being the point, like having to push "play" on your TV remote after every line. Although the opposite sentiment exists (and arguably exactly what people want exists, likely in some overlooked low-budget games), this is easily seen as sacrificing interactivity for the sake of passively presenting something that can be done much better elsewhere. This is what I would call a bastardization, something I would rate unfavorable in comparison to what has already been accomplished with games already (even if it is only within the area of "war") even if it manages to escape the practical "limits" of the medium (but not really, once you begin to think of the whole thing as a experiment of choosing the right options to get the best ending, a happy ending).

I would say the most illuminating fact on the matter is that we do not actually speak or have conversations in the physical or mental sense within videogames (with some truly abyssal exceptions, like "Facade" and "Hey You, Pikachu"), we choose fairly basic options in a fairly basic way. Having a conversation, how words are said and how they are taken to mean seem infinitely more complex than walking through a series of conversation trees (which then to go on to compare quite unfavorably to what has been accomplished in strategic and reflexive possibility spaces). When we can recreate what it feels like to have a conversation, one you'd find in a movie or, much better, real life, then you end up getting something natural, probably while wearing a VR device and a mic.

On the other hand, if you give the player the role of being an actor in a romance plot, will they be as good actors as the professionals? And are people ready to fall in love with fake people rather than watch fake people fall in love with each other? Well, this is an anime game thread, so...

What I find a little more bemusing is the idea of a "mature" erotic game looks like. Is it this like comparing X-Art to Bangbros? So, that's probably a VR set, a mic, and sex device attached to your genitals.

Sounds juvenile no matter how you cut it, but isn't masturbating to porn juvenile? But what if most adults do it? Are we to assume acting on your base, instinctual, shallow sexual urges is juvenile? Are most adults juvenile? Then that's a really odd definition of juvenile. Here lies the crux of the matter when it comes to "maturity" and "juvenile": it's simply saying "I want people to be like *this*" (e.g., "I want people to marry, have two kids, and buy a house - and not watch superhero movies for fucking kids"). "Maturity" is the model of the ideal adult/citizen. "Juvenile" is a way of venting the negative feelings that come about when reality doesn't match the expectation. This is why I say it's easy to say something is a failure for not doing what you want, but I don't think there's much value in it.
 

RK128

Member
Reading that old thread about his other article on the same subject, not the first time he does the pedo comparaison :

aaaaaaaa9wq16.png

Its one thing arguing whats right/wrong to include in the game, but its another thing to call people having a discussion on the topic a 'pedophile' :l.

Great work there J. Parsh......
 

Demoskinos

Member
Absurd sexual content doesn't have to be about getting off, you know. It could be just as funny and over-the-top amusing as it is arousing.

Bingo. I love when people pull out the "go look at porn" zingers. Like no duh. If I wanted porn I'm on the internet its literally a click away.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Asking a developer to remove something that could be viewed as problematic for the sake of being PC is not asking for self censorship. Now mind you I don't think this article is talking about that but I do think some would rather the games not use that art.

Of course it's not straight calling for censorship it's a muddy discussion.

Voicing your opinion on something is not a call for censorship at all. Even if I did ask the developer to remove or change something, I don't see how they are obliged to listen to me. I don't see how discussing something you disapprove of is approaching censorship or a "muddy discussion".
 

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
I had this idea that developers are becoming more like toy makers. They don't need to assume the parental role or stand up for ethics. They choose to because I can't think of any of them wanting to make something NC-17. Our horror games rely on gore if not the past.

We have this large selection of classic games that defined certain genres, but we have gotten past that. Most games that come out do killing very well. Outside of that it's softcore porn. Even with murder they sometimes cut away from the screen.

An AO rating is bad for sales too, so I can see some not wanting to take the hit.

I don't like playing the juvenile kid who has to learn a life lesson. I don't mind that in RPGs, but anymore it is all we are getting. We are getting these coming of age games that are just hinting at what can be done. We see a small snip inside a game and we're like, "omg, I can't believe they did this!".

Sure, we've fought parents on FPS and GTA. Yeah, God of War has breasts and gore. It's also hiding the sex mini game like we need our eyes closed. I'm not saying make a full length sex scene, but come on.

I'd like something more. Films can get away with it. The MPAA does a good job and no one sits on there like they're someone's parents complaining about the content. Video games get all this praise, but films are soaring above the clouds. All we get are a fare share of fundamentalist treating video games like its for their kids. We take everything so personal while other mediums go beyond that.

It's great Nintendo wants to capture kids and so forth, but their content lacks adult content unless you grew up with it or you want to do something clean and fun. Horror has donor alright. FPS are just military games with guns and explosives. It's something you give your kid because he wants something violent. It's something fun for adults because it's mature. It just never goes beyond that point. Hatred came and went. No one cared because it's tasteless. There's just nothing else there because it's either an extreme or it can't do this and that.

Until Dawn feels like it might be a watered down horror movie.

I get the golden age of video games were a technological marvel and they still are, but some of these games are just a tease. People sit there and awe at something so simple, but only if it sends a message. The message is often a small one inside a very condensed atmosphere. There's nothing wrong with Gone Home, but it was made out to be more of a message than a video game.
 

Crocodile

Member
Depending on the genre? Not really. I do consider myself a fan of JRPGs and it is increasingly hard to find ones that are free of egregious fanservice, especially more specific genres like SJRPG

I will say this year looks a lot better than years past

A dearth of JRPGS, especially with larger teams and budgets has more to do with Japan having issues with game engines and middleware (which is a hump they are getting over now with Unreal and Unity getting widespread use) than niche games taking over genre.

Absurd sexual content doesn't have to be about getting off, you know. It could be just as funny and over-the-top amusing as it is arousing.

Yeah, it seems like a weird assertion by Parish. Some (a lot) consumers and developers are more interested in "the tease" than actual pornography.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
I used to like his articles during the EGM/1up era, I don't know what happened to him during his transation to USGamer.

What do you mean? His style is still pretty much the same from my point of view.
 

Joyful

Member
gamers still need to grow up before the games themselves can
when stupid things like gamergate still exist I think we arent ready as a whole
 
Its not just about this stupid nerdy embarrassing otaku game. Its the lack of the opposite. Yes, there are trashy awful romance novels all over the place, but there are also tons of mature, nuanced, legitimately great literature about adult relationships. Yeah, 50 Shades of Gray exists, but so does Before Sunrise, Casablanca and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and hundreds of other movies that don't have the embarrassing level of depiction of sexuality and attraction that video games so often display. Where are all the games that aren't various levels of titillating garbage? Where are the sensitive or interesting depictions of sexuality or human bonding we can point to as great?

I fully agree, but that isn't even the biggest issue.

Is there a big market for games that focus on exploring relationships, without couching said exploration in a shooter or RPG or something? A game that squarely focuses on the intricacies and complications that arise in romantic involvement? I can't think of the last time I heard anyone say "if this game doesn't handle relationships well I'm not buying it!"

The industry talks about "broadening the customer base", but there's little incentive for them to do more in terms love and/or sex. Games large and small are sell just fine without tackling those issues in a deeper, more mature way--which applies to storytelling in general, really. If it isn't hurting their bottom line they won't do jack shit about it.

On the flip side, there's a long history of ass and titties helping games sell. Small wonder we see plenty of both on the regular, LOL.
 
I had this idea that developers are becoming more like toy makers. They don't need to assume the parental role or stand up for ethics. They choose to because I can't think of any of them wanting to make something NC-17. Our horror games rely on gore if not the past.

We have this large selection of classic games that defined certain genres, but we have gotten past that. Most games that come out do killing very well. Outside of that it's softcore porn. Even with murder they sometimes cut away from the screen.

An AO rating is bad for sales too, so I can see some not wanting to take the hit.

I don't like playing the juvenile kid who has to learn a life lesson. I don't mind that in RPGs, but anymore it is all we are getting. We are getting these coming of age games that are just hinting at what can be done. We see a small snip inside a game and we're like, "omg, I can't believe they did this!".

Sure, we've fought parents on FPS and GTA. Yeah, God of War has breasts and gore. It's also hiding the sex mini game like we need our eyes closed. I'm not saying make a full length sex scene, but come on.

I'd like something more. Films can get away with it. The MPAA does a good job and no one sits on there like they're someone's parents complaining about the content. Video games get all this praise, but films are soaring above the clouds. All we get are a fare share of fundamentalist treating video games like its for their kids. We take everything so personal while other mediums go beyond that.

It's great Nintendo wants to capture kids and so forth, but their content lacks adult content unless you grew up with it or you want to do something clean and fun. Horror has donor alright. FPS are just military games with guns and explosives. It's something you give your kid because he wants something violent. It's something fun for adults because it's mature. It just never goes beyond that point. Hatred came and went. No one cared because it's tasteless. There's just nothing else there because it's either an extreme or it can't do this and that.

Until Dawn feels like it might be a watered down horror movie.

I get the golden age of video games were a technological marvel and they still are, but some of these games are just a tease. People sit there and awe at something so simple, but only if it sends a message. The message is often a small one inside a very condensed atmosphere. There's nothing wrong with Gone Home, but it was made out to be more of a message than a video game.

Hell you can see waaaaaaay more hardcore sex on cable TV than you can in any video game
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
It's high time for media to make sweeping judgements about mediums with only obscure, niche examples as proof.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's easy to say something is a failure for not doing what you want, but I don't think there's much value in it. I rather think about why things are the way they are rather than go into it with condemning preconceptions. I think the issue is that you are working from the top down. You begin with the idea of "videogames doing things movies (etc.) do" rather than "what are the things games do".

I have to wonder: what does a "pure" romance videogame look like? Most likely a little more than a series of dialogue choices and maybe some small miscellaneous fiddling with the environment (so a dating sim?). At some point it begins to look like additional step to seeing people talk to each other, a laborious method of exchanging information despite the information being the point, like having to push "play" on your TV remote after every line.
Romance doesn't need to be straight up dating sim to feel genuine in games, we have plenty of examples of successful romances that feel incredibly genuine and aren't poorly written at that. Nor do you need to sacrifice user input
Two recent examples
N3769XK.png


2969c95fc4df3febd0fcd2a24db25035.jpg

^ Silent protagonist yet still feels more real than so many other efforts in gaming.
If games are gonna tackle these things then yes they do need to get better at doing so, we should move past the point where romance in the game feels like a b-movie/anime.
 
A dearth of JRPGS, especially with larger teams and budgets has more to do with Japan having issues with game engines and middleware (which is a hump they are getting over now with Unreal and Unity getting widespread use) than niche games taking over genre.

Thats why the argument that "otaku games are screwing JRPGs" is silly. Is not like if Neptunia franchise suddenly dies tomorrow we will get Trails game sooner.
 
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