That's why it's shocking that it's gotten worse.
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Fallout 4 - Full Dialogue Interface Mod released
- Thread starter texhnolyze
- Start date
That's why it's shocking that it's gotten worse.
I understand the dialogue options complaints since they are clearly reduced compared to previous games but this thing about the voice acting baffles me.
I kind of want Link to be voiced next, imagine the outrage
I have mostly gotten used to the voice acting but every now and then the way she says it still is totally different than what I have in my head and it breaks immersion.
There have been Bethesda games with better dialogue, in any case. Namely all of them.
I haven't played Morrowind yet but the page-based conversation interface looks particularly promising.
To be clear, I'm talking dialogue systems, and number of branching paths. The dialogue itself is a more subjective discussion.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Good. The current system is a horrible eyesore.
texhnolyze
Banned
I wonder why can't we have that lined choices with a gamepad.
Yeah, that shot looks simplified already so I can't blame you.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Not being able to see what I'm gonna say really does sucks. Gives me flashbacks to the likes of the "doubt" option in LA Noire. Fallout 3 had a pretty robust dialogue system. Lots of information to receive. Or maybe I'm thinking of New Vegas....
Thanks, op.
Thanks, op.
Morrowind's dialogue system was more a list of subjects that you can broach. There would occasionally be a choice involved, and whether or not you bring a subject up at all could cause situations to have varying effects, but I would not say that the dialogue system(Though the non-canned dialogue is damned good) itself was great. Though, without a great dialogue system it still gave the player a huge amount of freedom in how they could carry out a quest.
Contrary to any negative thing I've said about Morrowind in this post, it's one of my favorite RPGs.
CecilRousso
Member
Because you're missing out on a lot of extra dialogue by doing that?
Because telling people no can result in different things happening?
Because not all companions like that?
Because the attribute checks are never on A?
Subjective, kinda, maybe, but the actual dialogue in this game really is better then in Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim.
Basileus777
Member
To be honest, very little of that dialogue is worth seeing, and there aren't very many instances where dialogue checks make any meaningful difference.
It really isn't. I'd actually go as far as to say it's the worst of all of them.
You do know NV was made by Obsidian.
Yeah but that mainly means you're character mainly agrees and says "best of luck" etc.
There is side-content to be had with some of the dialogue options and hundreds of caps even with the low charisma checks.
Also, it does wonders for some people in the early game (first 2 hours.)
I dunno, it would just ruin immersion for me, because despite the game being developed mostly on a track, each little small deviation or inclusion is much welcomed personally.
Felix Lighter
Member
I was surprised by how much I hate the voiced protagonist and the new dialog system. Really stripped away a lot of my ability to develop my own character.
texhnolyze
Banned
Yes, sarcastic option is just another way of saying yes, kinda. How do I put it, when you see a sarcastic option, it means that the choice is not important. Important ones won't have 'sarcastic/yes/no' options, they have dialog checks instead. Yes, they do exist, but quite rare from what I've experienced so far.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
What he said.
Yeah. The stat checks for dialogue used to be a staple of Fallout, and were great narrative devices.
Thanks for the insight, yo! I'm looking forward to checking it out soon.
Eh, I haven't really given it much thought as yet because I haven't heard all of it or anywhere close. I think it's very hit-or-miss, but quite possibly scores more hits than at least Skyrim.
Denton
Member
Yes I know, so what ? When company that owns the franchise licenses their franchise to another company, and that other company creates vastly superior game, then I would expect the original company to exceed (or at least try to) the game of the licensee.
And yet Bethesda, with all its billions from FO3/NV/Skyrim, didn't even try. They just went in the exact opposite direction.
I'm starting to wonder if the Fallout 4 was made by the B team at Bethesda because the game is even a major step back from Skyrim.
They said it was "all hands on deck" which has led people to believe it was helmed by both teams. Maybe not so much, I don't know.
At least not in this department.
In what exactly? The world in FO4 is better than Skyrim, the companions are more interesting and the perk system is better.
FNV has better writing and main quest, the world design was much worse though.
What he said.
It's much less of missing the point, and more of fixing a problem that inherently is frustrating especially with only 4 dialogue options.
Despite the game being on the track, the ambiguity of certain dialogue choices is not the issue but rather one of many issues in the system. Having your relationship go down or skipping dialogue solely due to ambiguity is absolutely frustrating, especially given the fact similar choices are conveyed in vastly different ways.
I'd say this mod helps until we get more advanced modders adding in the system where there are stat checks a la 3/NV. Until then, this helps sooo much.
--
Side rant:
Having stat checks on certain topics is even more ass, because despite having 9/10 you can still fail the easiest checks even though it may lead to critical options.
There is a certain city in the game where I realized it was picking up my stat choices in dialogue but not as a "yellow stat check" and it certainly had less of an impact.
It's more of an underlying issue IMO where putting the game on a track was the fastest and easiest way to go about there job.
Eh, the gameplay itself is a step up in a lot of ways, so it really doesn't feel like a B team effort. Not to mention the amount of effort they probably had to go to for all the lines of dialogue for the female/male main character probably took them a lot of time, effort and money. Honestly, the crappy dialogue is more a natural result of the voiced dialogue system than anything else. Bioware might do it better, but even they still had better branches without voicing the PC.
No. FO: NV had better world design BY FAR as did Skyrim.
FO4 has:
-less weapons
-less armor
-less factions
-less narrative choices (mostly comparing to NV here)
-a smaller game world
-less side content (not counting those infinite missions tied to factions)
and the list goes on.
See, I have no problem with this as it creates consequences for your choices. You shouldn't as a regular non-cheating player be able to talk your way out of every single situation or see everything the first time through. The way the past games designed the system was so that no one player could have a total advantage in every conversation. I like to dump a lot of my point in Charisma but I'd still find myself in a situation where "Intelligence" or even worse "Explosives" skill was required, that meant missing out on those choices. However, I never felt cheated by this it only validated how diverse and wide the game was.
hobblygobbly
Member
People still complaining about some options not making a difference and that there are not enough dialogue options? People seem to forget the amount of exposition in previous games of dialogue, there it was all presented pretty immediately where here the rest of the options/exposition is branched.
Firstly, in Fo3 for example, you were presented with all dialogue options. Most of it was exposition, a lot if it didn't really have choice outside of when dialogue checks would happen. The same in Fallout 4 but instead of giving all the dialogue options immediately, it gives 4. Then it branches. They both still have the same sort of exposition. In Fo3, not every dialogue had stat checks (but yes granted, it used other than charisma), same goes with Fo4 (but just charisma). There are stat checks when it's needed for charisma and it can branch with more stat checks. The same level of exposition exists in Fo4, but it's just branched where in Fo3 the options were more immediately apparent. Also the game has plenty of quests that can change in objectives/optional objectives based on your dialogue branches + charisma checks.
They actually haven't changed much except how it is presented. Lastly, there are more story, side quest and companion changing choices you can make in Fo4 than previous games by far. People who complain that "there are only 4 options" clearly can't remember that the previous games dialogue was mostly exposition as well but that was presented pretty much immediately, here that exposition still exists but it's branched. Kind of been apparent where people complain about this have simply not played the game regarding dialogue much to see that nothing much has really changed. I'm not saying that Fallout 4's isn't worse, but the way people make it out to be so bad is exaggerated. Plus that image people keeping posting is disingenuous too, cherry picked specifics to extrapolate. Fo3 really didn't have many stat checks in dialogue and the exposition is roughly the same in Fo4 as well, except in Fo4 you either move the dialogue forward or branch it with more options and you can't then explore the other options if you've moved forward. The same about of exposition options are still there. Come on. Yes the previous games design of dialogue is better, I don't disagree, I just disagree to the extent people exaggerate that Fallout 4 doesn't have options or choices which is BS because the exposition isn't all too differently but how the exposition is presented differs wildly (like not being able to explore all options, the way you move it "forward" and branching).
Then again you also get people who say "the graphics look the same as Fo3/F:NV" so it wouldn't be surprising that people can't even see this.
The amount of weapons in the games are the same, both are in the range of 100-120. Except Fo4 has more combinations with these weapons, most of those weapons can have around 38 I think different legendary affects, things that massively change how the gun works, like a legendary explosive effect on a mini-gun. On top of that, you can add a lot of modifications to that weapon. There is more to do with weapons in this game than previous. There are more than likely a couple of weapons more in Fo3 but not by much, if you scour the various wikis (some that are out of date even with fo3 and fo4), and compare, they are not much different.
The amount of armor again, is the same. I'd say there is more vault jumpsuits in previous games. Plus legendary effects and modifications.
The amount of items are roughly the same but legendary effects + modifications make a lot more variations.
In terms of factions and how Bethesda planned out "chapters" and the like with their side quests + main story they have learned from Obsidian. Plus they actually did justice to how certain factions are supposed to be presented, unlike they did with a specific one in Fo3. And lets not forget, a few of the factions in Fo3 for example were DLC.
A smaller game world and content? Really? Perhaps the map is smaller but this game is way more dense and way more going on it than any Bethesda game besides Morrowind really. There's tons of even unmarked locations with practically quest-level content going on. There are more physical locations you can explore/enter than previous games as well. There are about 170 or so locations you can explore in Fo3, in Fo4 there are near 300 now. That's excluding locations that are unmarked.
Firstly, in Fo3 for example, you were presented with all dialogue options. Most of it was exposition, a lot if it didn't really have choice outside of when dialogue checks would happen. The same in Fallout 4 but instead of giving all the dialogue options immediately, it gives 4. Then it branches. They both still have the same sort of exposition. In Fo3, not every dialogue had stat checks (but yes granted, it used other than charisma), same goes with Fo4 (but just charisma). There are stat checks when it's needed for charisma and it can branch with more stat checks. The same level of exposition exists in Fo4, but it's just branched where in Fo3 the options were more immediately apparent. Also the game has plenty of quests that can change in objectives/optional objectives based on your dialogue branches + charisma checks.
They actually haven't changed much except how it is presented. Lastly, there are more story, side quest and companion changing choices you can make in Fo4 than previous games by far. People who complain that "there are only 4 options" clearly can't remember that the previous games dialogue was mostly exposition as well but that was presented pretty much immediately, here that exposition still exists but it's branched. Kind of been apparent where people complain about this have simply not played the game regarding dialogue much to see that nothing much has really changed. I'm not saying that Fallout 4's isn't worse, but the way people make it out to be so bad is exaggerated. Plus that image people keeping posting is disingenuous too, cherry picked specifics to extrapolate. Fo3 really didn't have many stat checks in dialogue and the exposition is roughly the same in Fo4 as well, except in Fo4 you either move the dialogue forward or branch it with more options and you can't then explore the other options if you've moved forward. The same about of exposition options are still there. Come on. Yes the previous games design of dialogue is better, I don't disagree, I just disagree to the extent people exaggerate that Fallout 4 doesn't have options or choices which is BS because the exposition isn't all too differently but how the exposition is presented differs wildly (like not being able to explore all options, the way you move it "forward" and branching).
Then again you also get people who say "the graphics look the same as Fo3/F:NV" so it wouldn't be surprising that people can't even see this.
The amount of weapons in the games are the same, both are in the range of 100-120. Except Fo4 has more combinations with these weapons, most of those weapons can have around 38 I think different legendary affects, things that massively change how the gun works, like a legendary explosive effect on a mini-gun. On top of that, you can add a lot of modifications to that weapon. There is more to do with weapons in this game than previous. There are more than likely a couple of weapons more in Fo3 but not by much, if you scour the various wikis (some that are out of date even with fo3 and fo4), and compare, they are not much different.
The amount of armor again, is the same. I'd say there is more vault jumpsuits in previous games. Plus legendary effects and modifications.
The amount of items are roughly the same but legendary effects + modifications make a lot more variations.
In terms of factions and how Bethesda planned out "chapters" and the like with their side quests + main story they have learned from Obsidian. Plus they actually did justice to how certain factions are supposed to be presented, unlike they did with a specific one in Fo3. And lets not forget, a few of the factions in Fo3 for example were DLC.
A smaller game world and content? Really? Perhaps the map is smaller but this game is way more dense and way more going on it than any Bethesda game besides Morrowind really. There's tons of even unmarked locations with practically quest-level content going on. There are more physical locations you can explore/enter than previous games as well. There are about 170 or so locations you can explore in Fo3, in Fo4 there are near 300 now. That's excluding locations that are unmarked.
A smaller game world? Have you even played the game? The sheer amount of content in FO4 is staggering, I would say that FNV including half of the DLCs is about equal to FO4's base game. FO4 has the weapon and armor system, I don't see why you expected a 10mm pistol and a chinese pistol and another pistol when you can mod the 10mm to do the same thing and have more options. Like you're hating on the game for the sake of hating on it, at least get some valid points.
I already stated the narrative in FNV is better, FO4 has a better world and better gameplay however.
I disagree on World Design, Fallout 4's cities are more believable than NV by a longshot, whereas NV's world was built off of necessity/NPCs.
One of my biggest gripes on NV is the fact that you enter an important town and there are uneven set of maybe 7 houses and 4/5 are openable.
Fallout 4 feels like the inverse.
As far as factions, narrative choice, and side content... that's obvious.
But strictly world-design, FO4 is way more believable.
jim-jam bongs
Member
What he said.
Why did you post this? I didn't want to get even more down on FO4 but now the hurting won't stop.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Now I just need something that changes or mutes my guy's voice. What a totally banal style they chose for that persona, the guy should sound just a little more badass than the ho-hum easygoing dadjoke type voice that comes out of his mouth. If they were going for something everyone would relate to they really shot too far in the safe direction.
But does Fallout 4's dialogue branch? I can't tell.
I don't know what y'all are talking about. My only problem with the current dialogue system is lack of specificity. You don't need to know the whole statement to be informed of the general gist of it (which, yes, means more than just saying "Sarcastic", Bethesda).
Base S.P.E.C.I.A.L. checks would be nice, though. And more clarity when it comes to dialogue options with a success chance. The Yellow/Orange/Red system isn't a very good indicator at all. I want my 75% chance indicator, please.
But yeah, I'd rather have a voiced protagonist. I'm kind of done with silent protagonists in my RPGs. Silence doesn't lend itself well to immersion for me, especially since picking dialogue options in previous BethSoft games barely mattered if there wasn't a goddamn stat check/indicator attached to it.
Base S.P.E.C.I.A.L. checks would be nice, though. And more clarity when it comes to dialogue options with a success chance. The Yellow/Orange/Red system isn't a very good indicator at all. I want my 75% chance indicator, please.
But yeah, I'd rather have a voiced protagonist. I'm kind of done with silent protagonists in my RPGs. Silence doesn't lend itself well to immersion for me, especially since picking dialogue options in previous BethSoft games barely mattered if there wasn't a goddamn stat check/indicator attached to it.
texhnolyze
Banned
Smaller game world? I'm not sure. And how can you already measured the number of weapons and armors, and side content in Fallout 4 at this stage? Have you really seen everything this game has to offer? Don't you consider settlements as side content?
I do agree with the rest of your list though.
You can actually ask them how they are doing with the settlement.
They might give you hints of what you can improve to boost the happiness.
I've played 79 hours of the game already (according to Steam) and have seen and discovered just about everything I can in the game world so I'm not "hating for the sake of hating." I went into the game expecting to be blown away, it was my most hyped GOTY so when the things I love about the series are drastically scaled back and I can feel it being inferior in many ways to past games I feel I have every right to criticize it.
I will agree that it isn't all bad, the gameplay is vastly improved. The crafting system is a great addition. I don't really care for the settlement building aspect as I don't feel it belongs in Fallout but it works okay. The new art direction is nice and I find the companion characters to be at least somewhat as entertaining as NV's companions. But, everything that I care about in an RPG world seems to have suffered for the worse in this latest iteration.
Also, while I like the crafting system I don't want to just have 10 different versions of the 10mm pistol I also want my Chinese Pistol and my Chinese Assault Rifle, Ranger Rifle, .45 Pistol, .38 Snub nose, Police Pistol, Revolver, That Gun!, Grenade Launcher, Hunting Rifle, etc.
Sure I see what you're saying, but in the context of sacrificing stats like strength or intelligence, charisma's old check was much more simple and clean. If I put 9 into charisma, I shouldn't be failing a super easy stat check in order to find out essential information or what not.
IMO. Charisma is much less about cheating throughout the game, and more of a playstyle preference as it means it will be that much harder to go through the majority of situations where you can't talk yourself out of it.
The current stat system being uneven in this manner causes things like max Strength to be severely OP, and Intel and Charisma to be negligible, especially with certain low level perks.
I like playing games as a "stealthy smooth-talking assassin" and the game actively fights against me throughout the whole game until a certain point in the game where the game decides stealth becomes a viable option.
Which is literally like the opposite of NV where I can be Stealth McCharisma man, complete with a silenced weapon, and enjoy the benefits all the way from the early game to the end-game.
And IMO, that's because Bethesda thought that route would be the easiest and fastest thing to do. And it definitely shows.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Nvm. I misread.
Yabberwocky
Member
By selecting the query option I'll sometimes get a dialogue branch, but it's pretty rare.
What he said.
To be fair, the mod "missing the point" implies that it set out to fix the dialogue system, which isn't the case. Such a mod would be a massive undertaking tantamount to writing a script and creating a dialogue system for a new game and it's for this reason I doubt one will ever materialise.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there, this video has been posted a bunch but it does a good job of explaining the difference between Obsidian world design and Bethesda (FO3 v. FO4). Oddly, enough though Skyrim does not suffer from this problem at all,
The Shandification of Fallout
And another good Fallout 4 Review for those interested that I believe is a fair balance between the good aspects of FO4 and the negative. Basically, the gameplay has been iterated on to near perfection but most other systems have either been stagnant for 7 years or gotten worse:
SupperBunnyHop: Fallout 4 Review
Oh, I don't think the mod "misses the point" at all it's a great mod. That said, the larger issue regarding FO4's dialogue most likely cannot be fixed.
Oh, you're talking about FO4? Yes, I 100% agree with you. I dumped like 9 of my points in Charisma sacrificing Strength, Luck, and Perception and yet would still fail dialogue checks when I got them.
nvm.
I was joking about him repeating that like 7 times in his post.
I love when people say dialogue is bad but don't bother to explain why it's bad almost as if it's your predetermined view on writing from Bethesda.
Yabberwocky
Member
Whoops! Apologies, I didn't scroll back far enough. I'd seen a few people ask similar things in other threads, and assumed it was the same. I may need a dialogue mod in real life!
I'll give a late game example that displays the crappiness of the dialogue and the writing itself.
SPOILERS
So you meet your son Shaun who is all grown up and running the Institute, he first starts the conversation by weirdly asking if you could love the robot child he displayed to you before revealing who he is. After some initial shock, your character just accepts this revelation and is not allowed to ask any further pertinent questions instead your son tells you to talk to the rest of the division heads to get an understanding of the Institute. Now, at no further point are you ever allowed to have a human conversation with your son and ask pertinent questions.
You can never ask him who exactly raised him? How was his upbringing? When did he discover I was still "alive?" Did he always know he was kidnapped and his mother killed? How did he become Director? How exactly does he feel about me? Has he ever fallen in love? Did he ever have a wife? A son? What exactly are his long term plans with the Institute? Why did he and the Institute make Synths as human looking and acting as possible if they don't believe they are sentient, free thinking beings? I could go on and on. Instead, your son shuttles you from one quest to the next before dying (if you side with the Institute) and names to Director despite you having zero idea what the Institute does.
You can never ask him who exactly raised him? How was his upbringing? When did he discover I was still "alive?" Did he always know he was kidnapped and his mother killed? How did he become Director? How exactly does he feel about me? Has he ever fallen in love? Did he ever have a wife? A son? What exactly are his long term plans with the Institute? Why did he and the Institute make Synths as human looking and acting as possible if they don't believe they are sentient, free thinking beings? I could go on and on. Instead, your son shuttles you from one quest to the next before dying (if you side with the Institute) and names to Director despite you having zero idea what the Institute does.
So, yeah I'd consider that pretty bad writing all around.
Oh no, I totally agree as far as themes/faction etc. go.
I meant the actual use of level design to convey a "world" as opposed to lots of NV cities with only a few buildings contrary to how NPCs describe locations etc.
Hopefully if we get the next Obsidian game, and Obsidian works off of the failures and successes of FO4, we will be getting a way better games with lots of immersion and believable factions.
Sorry if I was unclear with my use of "world design".
When it comes to lore and all that other stuff I designate that to "world building" and designate the telling of the world through level design as "world design"
MarcoZombieCannon
Member
Using the Gamepad version of the mod, there's still quite a few lines that are still abbreviated. Related to shopkeepers and companions.
Shuggananas
Banned
Now that this mod is out, should reviewers update their score to better reflect the quality of this game ? Should be at least a 12/10 thanks to the hard work of modders
