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[calder]

The motivations of the factions are definitely some of the worst plotting/storytelling in the game. It reminded me a lot of the various StarCraft games where when you're playing as, say, Protoss a new Protoss faction suddenly rises up against you for no real reason other than to give the player a chance to fight other 'toss in the campaign as training for multiplayer.

You really see the stage dressing behind the curtains in a game when this happens, and Bethesda simply didn't have the ability to make stuff like that seem organic or natural nevermind rational.


Don't even get me started on how frustrating it can be in a game like this when you find out some valuable information by snooping around and yet it never comes up in a conversation with someone directly related to what you find. That's just a limitation of any sandbox game I guess, so I try not to get too annoyed, but damn it's tough when my habit of exploring every room and hacking every terminal doesn't allow me to out a murderous synth or accuse a villain of their villainy. :\

 

[Neuromancer]

Yeah, the point where I completely lost interest in any story the game was trying to tell was when

Spoiler

Shaun asks me to go wipe out the Railroad.

I thought I'd be able to reason

Spoiler

Shaun

out of it. I couldn't. I thought I'd be able to talk the Railroad, a faction I'd been on good terms with until that point, into

Spoiler

going into hiding so that the Institute didn't come after them

. I couldn't.

In fact, I couldn't even talk to

Spoiler

Desdemona

at all.

Spoiler

She

just says some shit like "I know what you've been up to" and then stands there like an idiot waiting for me to slaughter them all.

I really enjoy the gameplay loops of Fallout 4, but the actual plot and story interactivity are a mess.

Edit: spoilered just in case.

This is the exact same scenario I found myself in and I couldn't, in good faith, continue the main storyline. Since it's a role playing game I became heavily invested in my character, and it would have been a betrayal of my character to do what I was asked to do. It's a bummer because I did enjoy the story up until that point and I was looking forward to

Spoiler

taking over the Institute

and making some big changes.

 

[ZangBa]

I didn't find the story all that interesting until after I finished it, and thought about the factions/synths a bit more. I sided with the Railroad the first time because I liked the music that played in their base, but it's pretty apparent they are just bad as the other 2 factions after you needlessly murder everyone in the Institute.

Normally I wouldn't give a shit about synths so the Railroad wouldn't really appeal to me, but Valentine is so cool I had to rethink my stance.

 

[daveo42]

I'm not anywhere as far as you in terms of story, but the odd choices of dialogue even super early in the game. There's an encounter I ran into after just leaving the vault where characters are holding up a supposed Synth and my character seems to already have knowledge of Synths even though she had just stepped out of the past with little to no knowledge of the world she is now in.

While I felt like the story seemed to take more of a prominent role in FO3 and NV, it feels almost like it takes a backseat to overall exploration instead of being hand-in-hand from start to finish. Right now I have zero clue on motivations as the Minutemen seem to be fine with uniting Boston again and the BoS is just doing what it does in every game. I will say I have decided to side with the Synths up to this point as "normal" ones seems okay enough, even with weird roving deathsquads of them appear everywhere. That brings up another question about why everyone thinks of them as a boogey man when I see them all of the time.

I will also state that I feel like the main hub, Diamond City, is too far from the starting position of the player that I feel little to no motivation to go there yet while at the same time it is apparent there is next to nothing to do in the northern part of the map. While maybe that works better when comparing FO4's Boston to the real thing, the game asks you to skip over half the map to get to the main story, while things progressively pick up right after the start of the last two games.

I'm still having fun with the game itself, but I do feel some of the same issues that you have in terms of dialogue options and information give to the character.

 

[kamineko]

You are correct, TC. I did not expect great writing, but even for Bethesda Fallout 4 is a new low. I agree that the biggest problem is that nobody ever explains themselves. Faction leaders are really just quest dispensers. For instance, you never get to have a serious conversation with

Spoiler

your own fucking son

about kidnappings and mass murder. You are just either in or out. Nobody feels like explaining themselves, their motivations, or even their decisions to you. They treat you like Santa Claus, just gimme gimme or kill 50 people for no reason and if you don't like it you can fuck off and kill 50 people for no reason on somebody else's behalf.

I honestly don't know why they bothered with a story at all. They could have done something like State of Decay and just focused on sandbox/sim/management elements.

Or FFS just pay some college freshmen in pizza and beer to fix it over the weekend.

I remember near the end, as I was trying to blow up the reactor that I had just repaired a week earlier,

Spoiler

Shaun

was all like "urk I'm so disappointed in you" and I thought, man, maybe if I had been able to actually have a conversation with you, none of this stupid shit would have happened.

Some of the companions were pretty likable. Maybe whoever wrote Silver Shroud & the companions should do the DLC.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

I can see the RR's conduct being justified when handling the BoS. It's a stretch, but sure, they come at you when you're backed into a corner, all you can do is fight back.

How they handle the institute, tho... Why yes, let us

Spoiler

murder every single person in there. And then plant a bomb on a nuclear reactor. Yes, that will prevent synths from ever being produced again and will completely rid the world of any and all persons that could do tech support for them, but fuckit, omelette, egs.

Like, for reals beth, why in blazes wouldn't the RR

Spoiler

take over the institute, instead of blowing it up?

This also ties with Father, of course. Really? Not a single way to convince him that sufficiently advanced AI's shouldn't be treated like slaves? Not one? Even after you find out that the "faulty" synths that they do manage recover, they do a hard reset and then almost always scrap for parts? And even though you know i have direct access to the RR, your first suggestion isn't to replace Dez with a synth? That's not even an option?

that's the problem with the factions, then. Push comes to shove, every single one of them is grotesquely stupid, and their motivation is revealed as "because reasons". Particularly aggravating with the BoS's reason to take out the RR:
"Because they've survided the Institute for a very long time."

...what?


Kellogg carried reports from the mayor to the Institute. Is why he was stationed there.

I dont know how you played with the RR but they went out of their way to avoid casualties at the Inst assault when I played them.

 

[Sullichin]

It's almost a given for me that I 'make my own story' in these games, but in Fallout 4 I had to take this a bit farther because I really am not a fan of the backstory, nor do I care much about the factions. I feel pretty disconnected from it all. I think the biggest misstep is having a backstory where you have a child.

 

[pantsmith]

Its as though the writers looked to New Vegas and tried their hardest to make a similar "Who do I side with?" dilemma, while also completely missing why New Vegas's factions worked.

I really want to side with the Railroad, but as the soon-to-be-leader of the Institute there is way too much science and technology in my hands to simply blow it up. The simple solution is to just get them to work together, not NUKE the place.

I haven't even picked what I wanted to decide yet. Brotherhood is cool but they are unwavering zealots. Hardly a decision.

 

[Bluenoser]

The sloppy dialogue system isn't just isolated to the main story or faction quests either. I was particularly annoyed at how the quest at the Covenant settlement played out. I'm supposed to investigate an ambushed caravan and search for clues. So I do, and I find a clue, yet the quest giver doesn't acknowledge the fact that I've found it.

That whole quest was so poorly written that most players probably had to refer to a guide online to figure out what to do. You had to get notes from trashcans (only time in the game I had seen this) in locked houses, that the citizens will get angry about you breaking into, and there isn't even a key lying around for players who didn't invest in lock-picking perks.

The scope of the game is so impressive that it's easy to get lost for 60 hours wandering around without noticing how bad the narrative of the story is.

I dont know how you played with the RR but they went out of their way to avoid casualties at the Inst assault when I played them.

Really? In my attack on the Institute, mild mannered scientists were grabbing laser pistols and attacking. There was really no option but to kill them all.

 

[Frozenprince]

I think my problem with the narrative and writing of the main quest is that once you find Shaun, it just, well, stops being a main story and becomes "pick the faction". The narrative ends, without any real payoff at all. There is no story, there is a cohesive narrative and web of main quests until there just isn't. And I have no idea why. There clearly are threads to make a narrative here none of them were taken.

Also yes

Spoiler

the inability to even have a 15 second conversation with your old son is kinda fucking stupid.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

The sloppy dialogue system isn't just isolated to the main story or faction quests either. I was particularly annoyed at how the quest at the Covenant settlement played out. I'm supposed to investigate an ambushed caravan and search for clues. So I do, and I find a clue, yet the quest giver doesn't acknowledge the fact that I've found it.

That whole quest was so poorly written that most players probably had to refer to a guide online to figure out what to do. You had to get notes from trashcans (only time in the game I had seen this) in locked houses, that the citizens will get angry about you breaking into, and there isn't even a key lying around for players who didn't invest in lock-picking perks.

The scope of the game is so impressive that it's easy to get lost for 60 hours wandering around without noticing how bad the narrative of the story is.



Really? In my attack on the Institute, mild mannered scientists were grabbing laser pistols and attacking. There was really no option but to kill them all.

Of course they would defend themselves. If an Inst Scientiest shot at them thats fair game. But before they assault they mention peopel wanted to flee will be allowed to flee.

 

[jahasaja]

This is the exact same scenario I found myself in and I couldn't, in good faith, continue the main storyline. Since it's a role playing game I became heavily invested in my character, and it would have been a betrayal of my character to do what I was asked to do. It's a bummer because I did enjoy the story up until that point and I was looking forward to

Spoiler

taking over the Institute

and making some big changes.

Same place for me, I stopped and never finished the game.

 

[MMaRsu]

I think it's far worse than any of their earlier games. I think it's worthy of special criticism. I don't expect Shakespeare but this is a mess.

sadly bethesda has convinced themselves this is quality writing. The gaming press dont disagree

 

[silvermember]

Yup. Their worldbuilding is unparallelled.

What exactly is unparalleded about their world building. The same copy and paste dungeons in Skyrim?

Or the other generic building and designed in Fallout 4?

 

[Effect]

It really does feel like they looked at New Vegas and tried to copy the idea of having multiple factions. However I don't think they even bothered to play New Vegas to understand what Obsidian actually did with those factions and the overall narrative. If they did and tried to copy that the end result in Fallout 4 would have to be something completely different compared to what it is now.

I think Fallout 4 would be have been better off if they used Fallout 3 as a template since they made that game and made a completely linear story with some options for ending some quest differently.

 

[kamineko]

The sloppy dialogue system isn't just isolated to the main story or faction quests either. I was particularly annoyed at how the quest at the Covenant settlement played out. I'm supposed to investigate an ambushed caravan and search for clues. So I do, and I find a clue, yet the quest giver doesn't acknowledge the fact that I've found it.

That whole quest was so poorly written that most players probably had to refer to a guide online to figure out what to do. You had to get notes from trashcans (only time in the game I had seen this) in locked houses, that the citizens will get angry about you breaking into, and there isn't even a key lying around for players who didn't invest in lock-picking perks.

The scope of the game is so impressive that it's easy to get lost for 60 hours wandering around without noticing how bad the narrative of the story is.



Really? In my attack on the Institute, mild mannered scientists were grabbing laser pistols and attacking. There was really no option but to kill them all.

You have to kill some no matter what, but if you activate the emergency evacuation protocol or whatever many scientists will flee & escape

 

[BennyBlanco]

Really hope Obsidian gets another crack at it.

 

[Bluenoser]

Of course they would defend themselves. If an Inst Scientiest shot at them thats fair game. But before they assault they mention peopel wanted to flee will be allowed to flee.

TBH for me it was too hectic to tell the difference... maybe some did flee? There were lasers going off everywhere, and I wasn't even sure who to shoot at. The synths we were freeing were still dressed in Institute clothing, so I even killed one by mistake.

You have to kill some no matter what, but if you activate the emergency evacuation protocol or whatever many scientists will flee & escape

I may have missed out on that option.

 

[sirap]

What exactly is unparalleded about their world building. The same copy and paste dungeons in Skyrim?

Or the other generic building and designed in Fallout 4?

The fact that it's 200 years post-fallout and people still leave skeletons around as furnishing. Oh, and that there are Supermutants in Boston.

Unparalleled world building.

 

[MMaRsu]

Yup. Their worldbuilding is unparallelled.


"

Ehhhh not really

 

[silvermember]

But seriously. All of Bethsoft games are pretty mediocre in ways they shouldn't be given the fact that they are an RPG company. Writing,Quest, characters none of them are memorable. Quest
I am always impress at how bethsoft games can get away with mediocrity and still get high praises. I mean people's standards must be so low if they consider bethsoft to be unparalled at anything other than being mediocre.

The fact that it's 200 years post-fallout and people still leave skeletons around as furnishing.

Unparalleled world building.

Ok.

Spoiler

I am not sure if you are kidding or being serious. I think you are kidding

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I found it extremely difficult to care about literally anyone. Including my own settlements in Fallout 4. Hell I wanted to just ruin things for everyone by the end of it, but you're literally not allowed to be a badguy in the strictest sense in Fallout 4 so even that's moot.

Yeah, that maybe was the worst part for me.
Pretty much the worst thing you could do was say "Oh, sure I would *love* to kill those ghouls" and roll your eyes......than proceed to kill those ghouls.
The "asshole" route was either: "Don't do this quest" or "Do this quest but be slightly sarcastic about it"

 

[Effect]

The fact that it's 200 years post-fallout and people still leave skeletons around as furnishing. Oh, and that there are Supermutants in Boston.

Unparalleled world building.

Let's not even getting started on that nonsense.

 

[Coll1der]

The General thing was fine by me simply because Preston was quite literally the only Minuteman left. It's the equivalent of Melhouse making Bart General of their tree house.

Doesn't it strike you odd that the only Minuteman left appoints someone who has no military training, no experience of command, no knowledge of the wasteland, no affiliation with Minuteman, and someone who he has no prior knowledge of - a General? I mean there is someone who fits all these criteria - Preston Garvey himself. But nope, for pure gamey reasons he appoints a random stranger to be responsible for the legacy of the organisation he desperately tried to save from extinction.

And to top it all off, he does so with a rude lawyer chick who doesn't really care even about her lost son. If all that doesn't bother you, brother, the only thing left for me is to commend your level of tolerance for contrived writing.

 

[AyanFaust]

*shrug* admittedly, while not super good writing, I still found it better than skyrim and fo3 which were largely just uninteresting to me to the point where I only did about 3/4 of the story before just saying I don't care.

 

[sirap]

Ok.

Spoiler

I am not sure if you are kidding or being serious. I think you are kidding

Kidding, of course. It's stupid. The mannequins are stupid too. They can't even stick to their goddamn lore.

 

[Skinpop]

What exactly is unparalleded about their world building. The same copy and paste dungeons in Skyrim?

Or the other generic building and designed in Fallout 4?

maybe he meant theme park building. fallout 4 doesn't really work as a world. at least not for me.

 

[Sou Da]

Yeah, that maybe was the worst part for me.
Pretty much the worst thing you could do was say "Oh, sure I would *love* to kill those ghouls" and roll your eyes......than proceed to kill those ghouls.
The "asshole" route was either: "Don't do this quest" or "Do this quest but be slightly sarcastic about it"

I really would have preferred Sanctuary to be the only settlement you could build up and just have a lot more interaction and quests come from that.

 

[aravuus]

What exactly is unparalleded about their world building. The same copy and paste dungeons in Skyrim?

Or the other generic building and designed in Fallout 4?

It's weird, I always see random people call Bethesda's world building unparalleled but never elaborate on it.

 

[Coffee Dog]

What exactly is unparalleded about their world building. The same copy and paste dungeons in Skyrim?

Or the other generic building and designed in Fallout 4?

Posed skeletons are the pinnacle of interactive storytelling.

 

[Frozenprince]

I think the Minutemen weren't actually meant to either be a joinable faction to begin with, or had a shitload of stuff cut from their line. They feel tacked on as it stands right now as an excuse to justify your base building and give you resources to do that easier. But they really don't "exist" like the other factions. Which is weird because they're the only ones that naturally arose from the fallout in the actual Commonwealth.

 

[tuxfool]

It's weird, I always see random people call Bethesda's world building unparalleled but never elaborate on it.

It makes them feel like children. When you're a child, Theme Parks do seem like a magical world where anything is possible.

 

[True Fire]

It's weird, I always see random people call Bethesda's world building unparalleled but never elaborate on it.

See that aluminum can over there? You can pick it up! You can't do that in other games!

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I think the Minutemen weren't actually meant to either be a joinable faction to begin with, or had a shitload of stuff cut from their line. They feel tacked on as it stands right now as an excuse to justify your base building and give you resources to do that easier. But they really don't "exist" like the other factions. Which is weird because they're the only ones that naturally arose from the fallout in the actual Commonwealth.

Looking at the development time it took to make the game and looking at other open world games, then factor in that Bethesda should have some experience with this engine, the dev-time seems a little long, especially with the amount of jankiness still in there. I can only assume the threw a lot of ideas away, because they turned out to be "not fun" or "not work anymore" with the rest of their story changes. ...anyway, we'll never get a postmortem on this game.

 

[Rushersauce]

And it's only one of the many problems this game has.

Also, the kid in the fridge.... Ayylmao. Also

Spoiler

the ghoul that lived in a bunker. Nick's revenge couldn't be more stupid

 

[RockTurtle]

It's weird, I always see random people call Bethesda's world building unparalleled but never elaborate on it.

but there are skeletons in funny poses! for example there's one skeleton on top of another skeleton in a closet in a sexual position! that means they were having sex as they died!

 

[Rushersauce]

but there are skeletons in funny poses! for example there's one skeleton on top of another skeleton in a closet in a sexual position! that means they were having sex as they died!

Or they were sitting in a bench! In a fucking park and they died! That means they knew they were going to die! Omg such atmosphere, many feels

 

[OverBlood 3]

It's even worse when character scripting and story end up working against one another.

I've had people say how sad it is that (person) is now dead only to have them walking around in view.Sometimes characters just refuse to talk to me? Glory in particular.For no reason.

Also why don't those two mopey bastards at sanctuary fucking shut up, you can't even kill them.

I'm one of the few people that play games to be a shit to everyone and none of that is reflected in this game unlike the two previous fallout games.

 

[antitrop]

After realizing how terrible the writing and dialogue was in the first few hours, I just mashed my way through all the dialogue for the rest of it, so I could enjoy the parts of the game I thought were worth playing for.

I was greatly amused by seeing my character "Mmmhhmmm, uh huh, yeah, alright, mmmhmmm" his way through the entire game. Sometimes a "COME ON, ALREADY" in there for good measure.

 

[Mashin Haters]

I wouldn't say "that's just how they are" is a good excuse.

it isn't a good excuse. In my opinion it can be done very good. For example I think the Witcher 3 does a great job with pacing the main story with smaller side quests while still creating amazing dialogue and plots.

 

[Neuromancer]

I was greatly amused by seeing my character "Mmmhhmmm, uh huh, yeah, alright, mmmhmmm" his way through the entire game.

This was a stroke of genius and I expect it to get copied in other games.

 

[Sou Da]

After realizing how terrible the writing and dialogue was in the first few hours, I just mashed my way through all the dialogue for the rest of the game, so I could enjoy the parts of the game I thought were worth playing for.

I was greatly amused by seeing my character "Mmmhhmmm, uh huh, yeah, alright, mmmhmmm" his way through the entire game.

That is perhaps the most unnecessary touch I've ever seen in a game.

 

[Frozenprince]

I just love how they made such a big deal about "NPC's will say your name!" and yet it's one NPC, for about 4 lines.

Like, it cost so much more to have other NPC's read from a canned list of names? Really? You couldn't spring for more than ONE NPC to do it? Only that one robot knows your name? Not any of the various romance options or, you know, your son?

That's just bad writing and bad design.

 

[antitrop]

I just love how they made such a big deal about "NPC's will say your name!" and yet it's one NPC, for about 4 lines.

Like, it cost so much more to have other NPC's read from a canned list of names? Really? You couldn't spring for more than ONE NPC to do it? Only that one robot knows your name? Not any of the various romance options or, you know, your son?

That's just bad writing and bad design.

It's a theme park. You only get to ride the "robot says your name" ride once.

 

[tuxfool]

I just love how they made such a big deal about "NPC's will say your name!" and yet it's one NPC, for about 4 lines.

Like, it cost so much more to have other NPC's read from a canned list of names? Really? You couldn't spring for more than ONE NPC to do it? Only that one robot knows your name? Not any of the various romance options or, you know, your son?

That's just bad writing and bad design.

It is just a feature for their self satisfaction, that amounts to little more than just a bullet point that they could use on the box. They made such a big deal about it, but in the greater context of the game the feature is utterly meaningless.

Coming up with decent conversation trees was too difficult for them. Instead somebody had a 5 minute brain fart and seemingly implemented this into the design just as quickly.

 

[Grief.exe]

If you think about their body of work, Bethesda has really become a bottom-tier developer in the majority of aspects, yet has ownership of a formula that keeps people coming back for more.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

 

[Frozenprince]

I was so excited for that too. It was finally going to be the realization of what the shift to voiced dialogue meant, you get a personalized experience that you can actually feel more closely connected too these characters. I wanted the next Mass Effect, and expected it, to follow in this example.

And it's just a hollow bullet point.

Super disappointing and really ended up breaking my immersion within like 20 minutes of playing the game. And the didn't even come up with a work-around by giving your character an in game title. Piper calls you Blue, but other than that you're just "nameless generic dude/lady".

 

[antitrop]

If you think about their body of work, Bethesda has really become a bottom-tier developer in the majority of aspects, yet has ownership of a formula that keeps people coming back for more.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

So Ubisoft, sure.

 

[Dragon Puncher]

Honestly I feel like the main storyline in every Bethesda game since Oblivion has been pretty bad, filled with dumb plot devices and characters that felt more like sides of a coin than actual beings with motivations. It just seems like it took the wide recognition of more fleshed out RPG storylines like in The Witcher before people started to notice the problems with Bethesda games on a bigger scale.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

That is perhaps the most unnecessary touch I've ever seen in a game.

I agree with Neuromancer, that part is awesome. Especially the "Whetev, do I look like I give a fuck (just get me back to gameplay)"-tone of it. I don't expect many other games to copy it though... it's just too honest. Publishers always have to play it like everybody cares about their storytelling.

Next step would be reactions to you walking away mid-conversation and skipping parts of what you already heard of that dialogue should you decide to come back later:
"As I said earlier *5 word summary of conversation before interruption*->*continue conversation*"


Maybe we're off topic now. This thread was about motivations, information to base decisions on and storytelling in Fallout 4 (was it?).