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Love Boat [Mafia] |OT| Till Death Do Us Part

Y

YesNOnoNOYes

Member
CURRENT VOTE TALLY:

Blargonaut & Kawl_USC (12)
Karkador .1889
Zippedpinhead .1892
Flame_AC .1893
Hyperactivity .1895
*Splinter .1919 .2145
batsnacks .1930
Timeaisis .2009
Camjo-Z .2086
TL21xx .2090
LaunchpadMcQ .2130
Kyanrute .2142
Retroid .2224 .2225
Retroid .2225
FluxWaveZ .2329

Hobohodo & Ty4on (1)
FluxWaveZ .1920 .2235
cabot .2028 .2146
cabot .2146 .2334
cabot .2334

Coppanuva & Flame_AC (1)
Dusk Soldier .1992

FluxWaveZ & Timeaisis (1)
Gorlak .1699 .2040
Camjo-Z .1846 .2086
Coppanuva .1903 .1990
Blargonaut .1911
TL21xx .2042 .2090

Gorlak & LaunchpadMcQ (1)
Giant Panda .1637 .1640
Giant Panda .1640
UltraJay .1688 .1695
Coppanuva .1994 .2061

batsnacks & MagnumBoy20xx (0)
Flame_AC .1745 .1893

Karkador & Zippedpinhead (0)
Gorlak .2044 .2057
Ty4on .2271 .2347

El Topo & Giant Panda (0)
cabot .1625 .1663
cabot .1941 .2028

*Splinter & cabot (0)
LaunchpadMcQ .1764 .2130

Hyperactivity & kingkitty (0)
cabot .1670 .1941


No active vote for Day 2:
*Splinter (has previously voted)
Boo Boo'n
Coppanuva (has previously voted)
El Topo
Gorlak (has previously voted)
Hobohodo
Karu
Kawl_USC
kingkitty
MagnumBoy20xx
Ty4on (has previously voted)
UltraJay (has previously voted)



Day 2 ends:
red_1456423200.png


15 votes for majority
 
C

Camjo-Z

Member
*Splinter said:
You aren't pushing for a Flux lynch because a Blarg lynch is already a certainty. I'm questioning you because I don't understand your position, and I'm not entirely convinced that you do either.

This response isn't helping. First paragraph repeats the point I already dismissed (although if someone could link where Flux claimed to be trying to be lynched I'd appreciate it), and the second paragraph is defensive and already trying to soften your position.

Pro tip: stick to your guns or have a damn good reason for reversing.

TLCam = Scum
Click to expand...

I don't really care that you "dismissed" it because the first point is completely valid, you just seem to not want to acknowledge it. See Flux claim he wanted to get himself killed:

FluxWaveZ said:
It wasn't really a "gambit," but hell no. Obviously, a power role still ended up being lynched on D1. Would have rather we died instead; that was the point. Then again, no one died on N1, so who knows.
Click to expand...

See Time suggest the opposite:

Timeaisis said:
Which is why I felt I couldn't come clean yesterday. It would almost certainly lead in a lynch for us. However, it may have been better to do it yesterday and take the L than end up lynching our two True Lovers. It's something I weighed yesterday, but decided against it.
Click to expand...

Even Time knew that they could have gotten themselves killed if they really wanted to, but they didn't. I have quotes for this stuff, I'm not making it up. You can think that Flux is just an unskilled townie and I'd be glad to hear your case for why, but this bizarre attempt to paint me as suspicious because I don't trust someone who's been acting fishy the entire game just comes off as desperate. To quote a well known philosopher: come back when you can put up a fight.

Gorlak said:
WTF? You are clever and you've played before. You know what you were asking for and you know this was suspicious as hell. I don't believe you in the slightest that you thought an outed cop Day2 could lead town to a safe victory. You're a suspicious liar.
Click to expand...

I've only ever played epicmafia before, bullshit plays like cops outing Day 2 are bread and butter over there. It's not great, but it's a decent enough way to get acquainted with the fundamentals.
 
B

Blargonaut

Banned
DnBMgNV.gif


My so-called "emotional appeal" was never intended to stand toe-to-toe against the actual case in-game against us, as it is a pure statement against accusations based on metagaming. Yet, who are the alleged "LOVELESS" now, you who say passion is stupid and does not belong in this Tunneling of Love? But fine, I will be cold for you now.

Karkador x Zippedpinhead has put forth a kernel of an admittedly solid case against us, which is the criticism of our alleged recklessness given the role we have, and that we have played it 'badly'. They say we made a mistake with ourselves.

This kernel of an actual gameplay-relevant accusation, since its statement, has been largely dropped by the majority of the players here and instead you all have resorted for many pages now to "metagaming" in the form of using prior games against me and therefore my partner Kawl, and now using the Crab Scale of Balance against us and our role, despite it being a relatively arbitrary scale of 'role madness' in the first place. If the host has chosen to include a single wildcard in a "vanilla 5-ranked" game, how many points did that inclusion add to their game's Crab rating? Did it, even? Did the addition of a single 'mad' role for fun affect it, especially one as relatively benign as an empowered Miller in a game of a technical 15? None of you possess the design document of this particular game. That is the realm of the host, and we are all players. If each of you had that in front of you to refer to, and if you can quantify a single 'mad' role's addition and thus the scale itself, then I'd submit to this presently illegitimate incriminator.

I respect Karkador for trying to quell this. Yet, if none of you are willing to return and look at the pair of us objectively within the bounds of this game alone, then construct a case from that, then I will do it for you:


  1. Publicly state the Miller aspect in the D1 claim, leave out the Tracker aspect
  2. Face the standard Miller suspicion gauntlet; if they buy it and survive your debut, be content in the fact that scum would not likely target you every Night due to your value as a conversation piece/lynch scapegoat
  3. When the Town heat inevitably finally reaches you many Days later after your Miller claim, unveil your Tracker aspect and state who your Nightly targets were, and if you saw anything potentially incriminating in the process
  4. Live or die afterwards, be secure in the knowledge that you executed your power to the best of your capability, for the betterment of Town
All metagaming aside, the primary motivator for our lynching Today should be for not following this quite logical play strategy above with the role we were given. We have been accused of being a scum Tracker by the other Tracker claimant, Karkador x Zippedpinhead, for this admissible-as-ingame-evidence conjecture on a perceived mistake:

Karkador said:
But your reasoning for claiming Tracker along with it is bullshit. You would have been scrutinized for claiming Tracker no matter what. At least try to paint less of a target on yourself from Day 1. The entire move looks like "Hey everyone, don't mind us, we're not evil at all, no sir"
Click to expand...

We have already previously outlined multiple times our initial reasoning behind why we included our Tracker aspect in our claim and why we didn't think it was a serious mistake; the following two posts of ours summarize our continuing POV on this matter: Post #1911 ("If we had solely stated ourselves to be as Millers and had elected to omit that Tracker detail from our oh-so succinct debut, as you personally profess we should have; it would have be seen as a subtraction, not addition, upon reveal to our already tentative credibility after-the-initial-claim-fact in the highly likely event we had to come 'fully clean' in future due to increased scrutiny of our persons as naturally befits those of the Miller persuasion late-game. [...] Players do not react well to what they would perceive as conjured hand-waves against their suspicions in the form of claimed pro-Town abilities, especially when the claimant is in immediate danger without such.") and Post #2083 (we did not trust Town to trust us with only a Miller reveal alone; we were not thinking about the game's overall role balance pre-game, as we were only concerned at the time with accruing credibility against an early lynch of ourselves by letting Town know we were Miller variants who were empowered and could actually help out with our power role. "Personal execution [of our debut claim] for Town's sake, not game theory. [...] We weren't thinking about 2 Trackers because we weren't even considering game balance with other possible roles at the time.").

Refer to those for your judgement, but for your immediate convenience I will reiterate our position here; we dumped our entire dual-class role into our opening claim because we thought that the pro-Town credibility gained from claiming to be a Tracker with showable results depreciated with time spent as a publicly-announced Miller, as we were feared not having to show anything useful for ourselves if the time came to unveil had we kept it secret like you suggest we should have. You have convinced the others it was a mistake on our part; we personally did not believe it was at the time.

Both parties have mutually confirmed each other. On N1, Team BLAWL saw Team Zippador visit them; and, Team Zippador saw Team BLAWL visit them.

Karkador x Zippedpinhead knows for a fact that we are a Tracker role, and vice versa. If they were in actuality the scum Tracker they say we are; getting rid of us via lynching in public like this gives them far more net benefit than keeping us as the Millers around as said conversation piece/scapegoat, because they gain something better for themselves: the removal of Team BLAWL as a known powered role threat to their team, a credible defense post-our lynching, saying that as claimed Millers our deaths had to come sooner or later anyway, and safety for one more Night phase guaranteed of who may potentially be their teammates, Timeflux.

Refer to a quote of Kark's:

Karkador said:
Nope. You revealed Tracker because you assumed you were the only ones with it. Oops..
Click to expand...

Did he not make the exact same assumption, when he chose to out himself and his partner as "The Real Town Tracker"?

What is the opposite action that Team BLAWL could have taken after D2 start, after seeing them visit us N1? What were our alternatives to being discreet about them, as we were?

What, that as soon as D2 began, we should have immediately publicly announced and revealed them as a power role capable of visiting others, of unknown alignment? Start ourselves this '1-for-1-pro-Town-trade' gambit that Kark is employing against us? In the light of no kills occurring last Night, do you understand how much more anti-Town the move that you're subtly insinuating we should have done, to be? We would have been eviscerated for calling a power role out like that when you could have been the Doctor or Switcher who saved a couple's life (our life) last Night; yet, they execute this calling-out move on us, and they are cheered for it? Don't forget that no one died last Night, and take that into consideration like we did.

Initially, all we knew is that they visited us. Our post-Night 1 result PM of our Tracking stated that we saw Karkador x Zippedpinhead visit us. This Morning, we didn't know what they were, but since there were no kills last Night they probably weren't the killer themselves, since we saw them and we're obviously still alive. They couldn't have been a Roleblocker, since our power clearly went through on them. But, they could have been a Doctor, even the Doctor who might have stopped the NK from happening if we were its target; they could have been a Switcher, who switched us with someone and that wouldn't have affected our targeting of them.

It would be understandable and highly likely that scum refrained from attacking us last Night, since them keeping a Miller around as a conversation piece/potential scapegoat for as long as possible, is in their best interest in standard scum tactical practice. But, there's always the possibility of such an attack having happened, especially since we claimed to be an empowered Miller and therefore a threat to scum, not a vanilla one, and that's why we chose to be discreet about Karkador and his partner. We did not want to out a Night-action capable pair Today given the deathless context of last Night.

In the light of no kills occurring last Night, can you understand why we chose to be discreet about discovering them to be a power role?

It is this discretion of ours that Karkador wields as a #scumtell against us; saying that we kept silent because as alleged scum we had no reason to reveal their identity, as all we had to do was wait until the upcoming Night to get the chance to off them as a known power role threat.

Objectively, can you not see this accusation from both POVs?

possible pro-Town angle for keeping Kark a secret:
- With no NK last Night, there is no valid reason to reveal and confirm that they were a power role, because they can't have been the as-yet non-existent malicious killer; since there was no death, there was no real proof to back up an accusation like that.
- With no NK last Night, they could have been the ones as a Doctor who protected us from a possible attack, given that we had stated D1 that we were a Tracker and therefore a powerful anti-scum role. It may have been scum's decision to attack us because of this, weighing that keeping us around as a claimed Miller conversation piece was far less valuable than jumping on the chance to kill a claimed power role. That was their potential prerogative, but it is but one explanation for the deathless Night. I have not yet seen anything more practically plausible suggested as explanation.

possible scum angle for keeping Kark a secret:
- As Kark said; keep silent and wait the Day out, until the time to strike the seen power role came the next Night.

We never even considered the scum angle in our weighing of the situation because we aren't scum (yes, hearsay or whatever it's called, your Honour, we know). We only had the pro-Town angle in mind. It was a unique situation we had to face regarding whether or not to reveal+confirm-them-as-powerful this Daybreak, and Karkador x Zippedpinhead faced this exact same dilemma before D2 start as well, except they had the benefit of weighing their options in the shadows. Not like us. It just so happened that Team BLAWL chose to make the first move and HAD to, since we had claimed as Trackers D1 the burden to prove ourselves was on us. And we did. We managed to catch a power role moving. It just so happened that our target moved towards us. And since we didn't die, and since we saw there was no NK, all we could do was hint that we did indeed see a power role move and it was towards us. Which we did.

There was no pressure on Kark to make the first move like there was on us, because no one knew they even existed. Who knows what they would have done if we had sat on our results instead? They could call us out for to post our Tracker results like the rest of you were and none would be the wiser regarding them. They'd be blended in. All the onus was on us, yet these angles are equally valid reasons for our inaction of discretion, which Gorlak #1699 and surprisingly Zippedpinhead #1774 of all of you made a comment on; so, with regards to our withholding of Kark's identity, what makes one side more credible than the other?

All Karkador keeps talking about are the ways we look scummy because we didn't call him out this Morning. He is unwilling to be objective and bring up the pro-Town reasonings behind us being discreet, because he knows they are as equally valid as the one in his accusation, and so he ignores them in favour of his own for the sake of pushing us to lynch. He is unwilling to step in our shoes, because he has been walking in our footprints since the game started; down to the Tracker claim AFTER ours, down to him admitting he's been teasing us since D1 with his constant asks for us to repeat information we already stated, and, all I see your "sorry, it's a consistency test, thread's too fast, didn't catch that before, I'm working" routine as, is as an excuse to feign pro-Town work and seeming contributions with minimal effort, down to his apparent confusion on Page 36 over whether we targeted Timeflux or not on N2 even after we had stated we didn't, down to his now repeatedly asking us to provide him with a possible plan for an alternative lynching Today and not stating the obvious and better alternative himself (which I outline in detail at the conclusion of this post). He has been connecting #scumtell dots with that not-calling-out-of-him as his main ammunition, and throwing accusation after accusation against us based on it, filling the conversation with theories about why we are the scummy ones. He hasn't been pushed to seriously defend himself, and when he does defend himself it is light and referential back to the not-calling-out-of-him, because the interrogations have not been truly in-depth in taking into account the deathless context of last Night, the role info gleaned from NeverTim's flip and his own erratic post activity based on repetition. He has so far with his partner, taken it relatively easy. And as a result, you have all been thoroughly influenced in following his POV and its derivatives alone, as shown by the majority of votes on us.

So then, on credibility; if we take the above angles out of the vacuum, and apply our respective personalities and stated roles to them:

Team BLAWL
Blargonaut said:
VvLZGdD.gif


yo, Blawl is Miller/Trackers

timeflux pls confirm
Click to expand...
Kawl_USC said:
KAAAAAAAAAWWWWL
Click to expand...
Blargonaut said:
Team BLAWL are the 'Best Friends'. The magnificent Blargonaut x Kawl_USC, and you can stick that in your collective canon. Or will you all ship us out like you did last gen's OTP?

And, Kark, is that what you were alluding to, with calling us "chums"? I don't know how a mere Tracker would know that, if so.

To paraphrase the Role flavour; we're kids whose parents have been lifelong friends from before we were even born. They always tease us about how we're going to grow up and get married since our families were so close; but, being kids, we still think love is "icky" and "disgusting", and hate it when they do that. Hence, why we appear Loveless when investigated. We're still young and we just think of being friends.
Click to expand...
Blargonaut said:
and btw, our move is called PRY: <target_name>
Click to expand...
- First in everything. Our D1 debut was planned well in advance and appeared far more coordinated than Timeflux's (which is fake, by their own word), down to the hours spent creating my avatar pre-game start (I know this is anecdotal, but it's true and I did). We claimed Tracker on D1 before Karkador x Zippedpinhead ever did. First to hint at the start of D2 that our N1 target visited us too.
- Since D1, claims Tracker power to be unlimited in uses. Objectively, this infinite use appears to be a blessing as balance compensation for our bestowed Miller handicap.
- On D1, largely indifferent in stance to Timeflux's Name Cop claim; were open to them coming by and taking a look at our Role Name, despite everyone stating that our Miller/Tracker claim conflicted mechanically with Timeflux's Name (not Alignment) Cop claim. Then, on D2, Timeflux stated that they were lying all along and that they weren't actually Name Cops. We believe our own claim as Millers gains validity because of their backdown, as the alleged mechanical conflict is gone.
- After Kark deployed his '1-for-1-pro-Town-trade' gambit D2, more pressure has been put on us to seriously defend ourselves than on them. Understandable given our Miller debut claim, but proportionally unfair; it feels like scum are among the pushers, taking full advantage of our Miller claim and using it against us.

Team Zippador
Karkador said:
Dear Blarg and Kawl,

We know you tracked us, because we tracked you. Actually, we have had some questions for you since Day1, but, you know; "ignore Blarg the first day", and all that.

Signed,

-The Other Trackers
Click to expand...
Karkador said:
Zipped gave away enough details about our role, I think. (11 word rolename, 'Binoculars' being the command).

Paraphrase the flavor? We're apparently old perverts.
Click to expand...
Zippedpinhead said:
Literally the first words of our role name is "a pair of old people".

If it's of any importance karkador is 87 years old and I have no age given...
Click to expand...
Karkador said:
If they really must know, it's that our Tracker ability is limited-use; which is what makes their claim a tad weirder (they claimed unlimited use)
Click to expand...
Karkador said:
Flux, stay out of my way. Go back to reading your past games. I have business with Blarg and Kawl.
Click to expand...
Karkador said:
I was being purposefully dense and annoying to try to get a reaction from Blarg and Kawl. They saw me target them, for unknown reasons.

If they watched me act like a scummy asshole, it might have tipped them in favor of outing me - if they are Town.

If they are Scum, they might instead opt to let belligerent Townies do themselves in.
Click to expand...
Karkador said:
You know, we felt extremely skeptical when you claimed "Miller Tracker", because WE'RE the Trackers on this team.

But you know what would pass for a Miller Tracker? A scum tracker, of course.
Click to expand...
- Karkador has exhibited a repetitive, reactive play-style and plays dumb/busy/reluctant and claims it's teasing others for consistency for pro-Town purposes. Zippedpinhead has been a relative non-entity in comparison, echoing what his partner says. I think FluxWaveZ, actually, summarized this point best:
FluxWaveZ said:
You EXPLICITLY acknowledged it here:

(quotes of Karkador)

Your whole thing this game has been acting obtuse, twisting the arguments of others and "forgetting" what other people have said to drive your own narrative. You prolong discussion points that should be over with relatively quickly, hammering the point to make it revolve around one thing instead of naturally having the discussion move onto something else.
Click to expand...
- Claims their Tracker power to be x-shot, limited use. Coincides with Town-aligned NeverTim's 1-shot Immunity we discovered after their flip D1, but Kark claimed x-shot on D2; only after they had clear knowledge of it existing in Town. And even if their x-shot is true; what if Team Zippador are x-shot exactly because they are scum-aligned Trackers? Objectively, an unlimited scum Tracker would be a quite powerful role as they are essentially a scum-aligned Investigator that can suss out the Town power roles as long as they are alive. If Karkador x Zippedpinhead are telling the truth, what if their claimed x-shot quantity is a power nerf placed on them because of that, for balancing?
- Did not challenge us on D1. Waited until they were able to Track our movement N1, and on D2 start, waited for us to say our results first, because they knew everyone was expecting us to announce something due to the onus of our D1 claim. After we dropped our hint, they revealed themselves to confirm us, then after confirming us they pushed for our lynching saying there could only be one Tracker and since we're Millers you can't be it, because they are. Then, the metagaming of games past and host criticism began around us.
- They initially acted reluctant to reveal their role name and flavour when asked by us after we had revealed all our own voluntarily, with Kark attempting to downplay the importance of role names and saying that there could still be a Name Cop even after Timeflux had admitted they were lying and despite our own apparently conflicting presence as Millers.
- Their reveal and claim as "The Real Town Tracker" will undoubtedly attract Town Cop, Doctor and/or Switcher power roles to either investigate or protect them on N2; a luxury that will never be afforded to us due to us being Miller claimants. Kark undoubtedly knew he would attract this kind of Night-time attention when he chose to reveal himself as "the" Tracker to accuse us of being a scum-aligned Tracker. Is it not possible that there is a scum-aligned Framer who can tailor Kark's alignment Tonight in expectation of these visits, and that Kark's reveal and accusatory gambit against us were made because he was secure beforehand in the fact he would never be found out?


Which brings me to our counter-proposition.

(PART 1 END, have to split this megapost into two as the total is over GAF's limit of 24000 characters)

(CONT. IN PART 2 BELOW)
 
B

Blargonaut

Banned
(PART 2)

UNVOTE: FluxWaveZ

VOTE: Karkador














or, quite arguably better for Town













PLEASE CONSIDER THIS FOLLOWING ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL IF YOU ARE UNWILLING TO VOTE OUT KARKADOR x ZIPPEDPINHEAD TODAY, AS IN FACT I BELIEVE THIS ALTERNATIVE TO BE MORE BENEFICIAL TO TOWN THAN ANYTHING ELSE YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DOING RIGHT NOW.

UNVOTE

VOTE: FluxWaveZ
UNVOTE
VOTE: Timeaisis

Karkador said:
Now, look - is it possible that two Town-aligned Trackers exist in the game? Unlikely and terrible, but ultimately "yes". But judgments about the game aside, the very certain fact is that we're in a predicament that's going to be resolved in one of two ways. It just so happens that you took a very compromising first step.
Click to expand...

Perhaps your minds will hopefully change regarding Karkador x Zippedpinhead's alignment and motives behind their gambit after what I have brought up above; but, since nearly all of you besides a handful seem unwilling to consider lynching Karkador x Zippedpinhead Today, there is a tentative third in neither of us Today. Even Kark, after briefly partaking in the metagaming he claims he's so against—

Karkador said:
If Blarg and I are on the same team, it is shit game design and our claim today was pretty much scripted by the gamerunner.
Click to expand...

—hints at possibly wanting an alternative—

Karkador said:
Obviously, I agree that two trackers here really seem like they're on opposite sides, and I'm definitely not trying to dissuade people from taking action. I'm just thinking, IF it came to us not lynching either my team or Blarg's, there will still be something to glean from our N2 involvement.
Click to expand...

—despite only doing so after I had already hinted at possibly entertaining such a temporary compromise in my 'Elite 4' post. Are you baiting me into doing this? Regardless; fine, Kark. I will entertain your thought for you. I will say what you won't, yet again, because I for one can handle the heat (given a bit of prep time) that comes with being first to speak up.

I know that you all may use my proposal of this alternative lynchee against me, by saying that, "If since I really find Kark scummy for all the reasons I''ve put forward above, why am I not pushing to lynch him directly?" Essentially, it's because I think the following alternative lynch target for Today, will give Town far more intel to utilize for scumhunting, then from directly killing either of the mutually-confirmed Trackers Today:

Karkador said:
Flame_AC said:
Just for future reference, after today, what do you think about keeping Flux/Time around for awhile. Or do you still think they need to eventually go?

Stepping out until tomorrow evening, see y'all then!
Click to expand...

It probably wouldn't hurt Town one way or another.
Click to expand...

Lovers, consider who has benefited with their lives from this redirection of your collective ire towards us due to Kark's alleged '1-for-1' gambit. Who did Karkador x Zippedpinhead essentially save Today?

They saved Timeflux from an earlier lynching fate.

- D1; Timeflux lies about being Name Cops. D2, they confess they lied.
- We happen. Timeflux is set aside for later. Team BLAWL is lynched, and Team Zippador, a Tracker of unknown alignment, is responsible for lynching the Miller/Tracker.
- They say it was necessary anyway; admittedly, it is, due to our Miller status. But, this remains a fact that is convenient to them in their own defense afterwards. When we die, there is nothing that incriminates nor absolves Karkador x Zippedpinhead from our death; they use the "they were Millers, it was necessary anyway" argument in their defense once we flip. We are an early casualty of a confirmed Tracker, your concerns about our alignment notwithstanding.
- N2; Timeflux is free once more to execute a Night power if they really have one. Team Zippador is free to Track another.
- D3; beside whatever events of N2, the topic of what to do with Timeflux has to come up again. Barring investigation of them, both Timeflux and Team Zippador persist as characters of unknown alignment, and you all must decide which of either to remove Tomorrow.

Objectively, why lynch Timeflux or Team Zippador first and not Team BLAWL?
In pure quantitative terms, you gain more information from lynching Timeflux first than from lynching Team BLAWL first, with Team Zippador being the next best choice for lynching.

By lynching Timeflux first (5 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Karkador x Zippedpinhead are colluding scum who pulled off this gambit to save Timeflux for another Day (besides the inherent scumminess that I find should be a reason for lynching him over us). Kark keeps saying it has to be us, Team BLAWL, or themselves, who must be lynched Today, yet pushes and pushes us with accusatory theories and yet has never been seriously placed on the defensive himself. Timeflux has recently begun to push for our lynching, in the end accepting Kark's claim as "real and only Town Tracker" to be genuine despite nothing confirming his alignment claim whatsoever, and agreeing with Kark's accusations of us in order to save their own skins Today.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Splinter x Cabot are scum in collusion, since after Timeflux's D2 "confession", they are the biggest proponents and defenders of Timeflux's innocence, saying that they are just naive Townies who failed in their alleged D1 pro-Town gambit and that their D2 backdown was relatively harmless. They and Kark have been extremely chummy together, as Splint x Cabot has never attempted to really put Kark on the defensive despite being one of the most active pairs in the game, and they both support Timeflux's innocence and avoidance of a policy-lynching despite Timeflux's blatant confessed lie of being a Name Cop and their strange WIFOM requests surrounding their now-retracted claim.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you learn whether or not Blargonaut x Kawl_USC are scum in collusion with Timeflux with the whole D1 double-claim fiasco as part of some ridiculously far-fetched scum dual open Role-claim mega-gambit of unknown intent and conclusion.
  • By flipping Timeflux's alignment, you remove a WIFOM problem that will have to eventually be confronted anyway. Like us, they are a topic of debate that will not go away unless you lynch them, or, since they have not claimed to be Millers like us, if they are Investigated later (which, if the x-shot mechanic is true for any Investigator out there, is what I consider to be a waste of a non-renewable resource when a well-deserved policy lynch of unlimited use can achieve the same flip). Remember that Timeflux 'apparently ex-Role Name Cop' on D1 explicitly warned away Doctors and other power roles from visiting them at Night. They have gunned for maximum WIFOM in both their lie and in their apparent D2 confession, much moreso than anything Team BLAWL has done. Why?
  • There is greater pro-Town reward to be had by allowing both potentially Town-aligned, confirmed Trackers to collect one more round of Tracking info each this N2 and present it to you all D3. As both mutually-confirmed Trackers, this goes for both Karkador x Zippedpinhead and Blargonaut x Kawl_USC. You need tangible information and we can both provide.

COMPARED TO​

By lynching Team BLAWL first (2 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Team BLAWL first, you get rid of your inescapable Miller problem early. However, we are a confirmed Tracker power role of unknowable alignment at the very least, while you still don't know what Timeflux really is nor their own alignment at the most.
  • By flipping Team BLAWL first, you do NOT directly find out whether Karkador x Zippedpinhead and *Splinter x Cabot were in scum collusion in redirecting attention and defending Timeflux from lynching Today, respectively. You lose two leads. We have no allies in public here, and the majority votes show it. Therefore, if you lynch us first, our alignment flip will have been in a vacuum of no attachments nor any possible #scumtell or #TownConfirm leads to anyone except Team Zippador alone, who was our mutual N1 power-confirmer.

By lynching Team Zippador first (3 separate pieces of information gained)
  • By flipping Team Zippador first, you get rid of your potential secondary Town-aligned Tracker early. However, they are a confirmed Tracker power role of discoverable-by-Investigator alignment at the very least, while you still don't know what Timeflux really is nor their own alignment at the most.
  • By flipping Team Zippador first, you find out whether or not *Splinter x Cabot are scum in collusion with them over defending Timeflux from policy-lynching for another two phases.
  • By flipping Team Zippador first, you find out whether or not Timeflux are scum in collusion with them, as they along with *Splinter x Cabot have been defenders of Timeflux's innocence after their backdown from their 'Name Cop' gambit.

There have been more colluding rapport links and support conversations between FluxWaveZ x Timeaisis, Splinter x Cabot and Karkador x Zippedpinhead all in favour of lynching us, than there have been between Team BLAWL and them. While this is understandable given our relative absence Today in preparing this megapost for you all, the majority of their talk has been largely pushing for our lynch with attacks straight from Kark's POV, with very little in support of our own, even outside their circle. After all this, there has been no love lost between them.

Some of you questioned why I voted for Timeflux earlier Today. Why? It was a redirection to a litmus test. And, this is how: I propose you use the lynching of Timeflux as a gauge of alignment for Team Zippador, Team BLAWL and *Cater (*Splinter x Cabot).

Timeflux lied to you all about being a Cop, claiming it was a pro-Town gambit. Timeflux, after their apparent confession, have largely lain low Today, refraining from having any serious opinion on any of Today's matters (fake edit: but recently, it seems like Flux has come out to comment on us and Kark a bit more seriously, despite asking everyone to TURBO us like Kark was requesting). Team Zippador is saving them from a policy lynching Today through us.

If Timeflux is lynched and flips as Loveless scum, then you all know Team Zippador had likely acted in gambit against us to save them, and thus would likely be the scum-aligned Tracker they claim us to be. *Cater appears guilty by their associative support of post-D2-"confession" Timeflux, as well.​

If Timeflux is lynched and flips as Town-aligned, then it proves Team Zippador AND *Cater weren't acting in Timeflux's defense as a scummy six-some, and so gain their relative rightful Town-aligned kudos. You'll have removed the time-absorbing controversy that Timeflux is from your list of Daily topics, and we Team BLAWL, are open for policy-lynching D3 provided we survive N2 and don't turn up anything useful for you with our final Tracking meal, blasting off as the unconfirmable-alignment Millers we are.​

---

Regardless of who, if any, is possibly scum between Team BLAWL and Team Zippador; by lynching Timeflux first, you allow both mutually-confirmed Trackers to provide one more investigation result to potentially announce tomorrow. Yes, one of the sets of results may be a fraud if there is scum between us; but, fake or not, regardless of the actual alignment of the mouth from which it came from, seeing what both Trackers have to announce tomorrow is even more intel for Town to use in the future in scumhunting.

And so, as you decide on our fate, hopefully with what what I've put forward in mind, here is a WIP reads list:

Team BLAWL's Greatest Shits Album (ranked from the biggest suspicious as scum at #1, to smallest suspicious as likely Town at #13)
1. [m] Karkador x [m] Zippedpinhead — (in this megapost)
2. [m] Timeaisis x [m] FluxWaveZ — (in this megapost)
3. [m] Rest [m] Dusk Soldier x [m] Karu — So much of a relative non-presence that I have no idea what to think about these two. Their placement up here is based solely on a gut feeling.
4. [m] Kingkitty x [m] Hyperactivity — I don't even know.
5. [m] *Splinter x [m] Cabot — (in this megapost)
6. [m] Coppanuva x [m] Flame_AC — I don't know where their loyalties lie, nor their votes. Erratic posters who weave in and out of the discussion with seemingly good observations, but... I never know when they're going to pop up? They're like scavengers who notice everything and jump at opportunities.
7. [m] UltraJay x [m] Boo Boo'n — Torn on these two. Nothing they've said really stands out to me as either for or against Town in general. I don't know. They're kind of... safe? It's hard to describe how I feel about them.
8. [m] LaunchpadMcQ x [m] Gorlak — I don't know what to think of Launch. He's definitely taken a step back this game, lying low and thus I harbour my doubts. Gorlak is a quite active participant, and maintains a solid and meaningful presence.
9. [m] TL21xx x [m] Camjo-Z — I don't see much of TL21xx around, but Camjo-Z is a willing participant in discussion, and seems quite knowledgeable regarding gameplay, seems to have a good background in playing before. Welcome to the GAFia crew!
10. [m] Retroid x [m] Kyanrute — Retroid's swathing inactivity is worrying, but his partner Kyanrute seems competent enough, and continues to carry the pair.
11. [m] Miracle [m] Giant Panda x [m] El Topo — I appreciate both El Topo and Giant Panda for daring to consider Team BLAWL's POV in this conflict. Thank you both, sincerely. They contribute well.
12. [f] Sophia [m] hobohodo x [m] Ty4on — Sophia, when she was here, was an able analyst of the topics at hand. Ty4on is similarly just as capable. There was a good vibe overall from both of them; now, I wonder how hobohodo will fare.
13. [m] batsnacks x [m] MagnumBoy20xx — batsnacks isn't afraid to propose plans, ask questions and approach problems logically. Magnum is being carried by his partner. The only reason they are ranked highest here is because of batsnacks' active contributions to the fold.

As you know, Kark, any reads list can be used to scumhunt regardless of the unproven alignment of its poster, by seeing who that poster apparently values as Town and who they don't; post-mortem, it can be a useful tool for sussing out possible relationships when combined with other people's contributions later. Where am I going with this final bit of exposition, you say? Well, just like a reads list, a set of Tracking results from a confirmed Tracker of albeit unknown alignment can be used to scumhunt in an exactly similar fashion. So, I promise to try and add even more detailed opinions behind the reasoning of our ranking of each pair before the Day closes.

Finally, don't think I'm ending this on a resigned note like Kark says I am. I'm hella not, as should be evident by the girth of this shit. I have invested a lot of time into trying to defend ourselves from him, and I think my counterpoints are just as valid as anything he's told you. I beg of you all NOT to ignore the points I have set forth here against Kark's accusatory gambit and his claim to be "THE Town Tracker." You still have roughly 1 day left. Please refer to my 'Team Zippador' underlined section in the 1st half of this megapost to again see why I think he's scum and taking full advantage of the claimed Millers in front of him for his team.

Undoubtedly, Kark & possible Co. will attempt to pick apart this megapost and divide and conquer it over multiple posts, and they are free to. But remember, quote and post volume =/= valid counter-argument. And while girth doesn't equal it either, please fully consider this content dump I have put forward in these two chunks before you finalize your opinions and your votes, because these huge blocks are easily overwhelmed by mass posting afterwards.

In case I somehow haven't convinced you to actually seriously question Kark's alignment in Day discussion with all of this text; I implore a Town-aligned Cop to Night-investigate Karkador x Zippedpinhead's alignment ASAP, and clear or defile their name accordingly later when said Cop chooses to make their results reveal.

Karkador said:
There's really no indication that there ISN'T a Name Cop out there. I honestly think rolenames are rather useless things to ask for, but it seems a few players are preoccupied with learning them, almost as if they need to know them.
Click to expand...

And, remember that Karkador and Zipped Today seemed reluctant to share their own role name and flavour info after we did ourselves.

...

tl;dr
Karkador said:
Or perhaps it's Friends With Benefits? My condolences about the friendzone.
Click to expand...

We're just kids, bro
 
D

Dusk Soldier

Member
Blargonaut said:
And so, as you decide on our fate, hopefully with what what I've put forward in mind, here is a WIP reads list:

Team BLAWL's Greatest Shits Album (ranked from the biggest suspicious as scum at #1, to smallest suspicious as likely Town at #13)
1. [m] Karkador x [m] Zippedpinhead — (in this megapost)
2. [m] Timeaisis x [m] FluxWaveZ — (in this megapost)
3. [m] Rest [m] Dusk Soldier x [m] Karu — So much of a relative non-presence that I have no idea what to think about these two. Their placement up here is based solely on a gut feeling.
4. [m] Kingkitty x [m] Hyperactivity — I don't even know.
5. [m] *Splinter x [m] Cabot — (in this megapost)
6. [m] Coppanuva x [m] Flame_AC — I don't know where their loyalties lie, nor their votes. Erratic posters who weave in and out of the discussion with seemingly good observations, but... I never know when they're going to pop up? They're like scavengers who notice everything and jump at opportunities.
7. [m] UltraJay x [m] Boo Boo'n — Torn on these two. Nothing they've said really stands out to me as either for or against Town in general. I don't know. They're kind of... safe? It's hard to describe how I feel about them.
8. [m] LaunchpadMcQ x [m] Gorlak — I don't know what to think of Launch. He's definitely taken a step back this game, lying low and thus I harbour my doubts. Gorlak is a quite active participant, and maintains a solid and meaningful presence.
9. [m] TL21xx x [m] Camjo-Z — I don't see much of TL21xx around, but Camjo-Z is a willing participant in discussion, and seems quite knowledgeable regarding gameplay, seems to have a good background in playing before. Welcome to the GAFia crew!
10. [m] Retroid x [m] Kyanrute — Retroid's swathing inactivity is worrying, but his partner Kyanrute seems competent enough, and continues to carry the pair.
11. [m] Miracle [m] Giant Panda x [m] El Topo — I appreciate both El Topo and Giant Panda for daring to consider Team BLAWL's POV in this conflict. Thank you both, sincerely. They contribute well.
12. [f] Sophia [m] hobohodo x [m] Ty4on — Sophia, when she was here, was an able analyst of the topics at hand. Ty4on is similarly just as capable. There was a good vibe overall from both of them; now, I wonder how hobohodo will fare.
13. [m] batsnacks x [m] MagnumBoy20xx — batsnacks isn't afraid to propose plans, ask questions and approach problems logically. Magnum is being carried by his partner. The only reason they are ranked highest here is because of batsnacks' active contributions to the fold.
Click to expand...

So if Blarg flips scum, is it safe to assume that there is one scum pair near the top of this list, one pair near the bottom of this list, and one pair in the middle?
 
B

Blargonaut

Banned
*Splinter said:
tl;dr of part one

"We aren't scum!

team rocket.gif

Kark claimed tracker!

to be continued"
Click to expand...

Blargonaut said:
(PART 2)

*snip*

Undoubtedly, Kark & possible Co. [read: *Splinter x Cabot] will attempt to pick apart this megapost and divide and conquer it over multiple posts, and they are free to. But remember, quote and post volume =/= valid counter-argument. And while girth doesn't equal it either, please fully consider this content dump I have put forward in these two chunks before you finalize your opinions and your votes, because these huge blocks are easily overwhelmed by mass posting afterwards.

*snip*
Click to expand...

Do you actually have anything constructive to add, *Splint, instead of being dismissive of us?

What do you actually think about the points I put forward in my 'Team Zippador' underlined section in the first half?
 
T

Ty4on

Member
Blawl, have you confirmed with Burb who you'd see if you tracked a hypothetical switcher? Would you see both targets or just one?
 
E

El Topo

Member
Dusk Soldier said:
So if Blarg flips scum, is it safe to assume that there is one scum pair near the top of this list, one pair near the bottom of this list, and one pair in the middle?
Click to expand...

No. That seems similar to the reasoning someone gave in Election Mafia, where scum had listed me as trustworthy/not suspicious, which contributed to my death.
 
B

batsnacks

Member
Why are there that many words this isn't complicated at all. We have conflicting claims... we lynch between them and hit mafia. If you're town it actually doesn't matter if you get lynched because we still get mafia either way?
 
K

Kawl_USC

Member
batsnacks said:
Why are there that many words this isn't complicated at all. We have conflicting claims... we lynch between them and hit mafia. If you're town it actually doesn't matter if you get lynched because we still get mafia either way?
Click to expand...

Because as Blarg outlines, it's a suboptimal play when you can think slightly outside the box and the narrative that's been pushed continuously today. Lynching a 3rd party which provides information not just concerning the two "conflicting" claims but also other couples who seemed linked as well is a more beneficial play.
 
S

*Splinter

Member
Lynch Flux? That's a terrible idea even if you actually think he's scum.

Everyone has been wasting today away and even pushing for a turbo because we're essentially forced into Kark v Blarg. If we lynch Flux today then we get to waste the next day as well? Fuck that.

Let's work under the assumption Blarg is telling the truth AND correct about Flux.
1. Blarg dies today, flips Miller-tracker
2. Kark is the fake/scum tracker, gets lynched tomorrow
3. According to you we should then be looking at Flux who Kark "saved", and now that we have Kark's flip that's a slightly better argument. If he does in fact get lynched and flip scum, great that's 2 pairs down already, 1 left (which is apparently me). What an abysmal play by the scum team eh?

If you're telling the truth but wrong about Flux, here's what happens:

1. Lynch Flux, flips town.
2. Repeat this shitty day, eventually lynch Blarg, flips town.
3. Finally lynch Kark, flips scum.

That's a mess that probably leaves us close to lylo, and without knowing Flux's alignment this is what you've suggested??

The ONLY reason to lynch outside of you/Kark is to delay your own death. If you had made a strong case against Kark (about 48 hours ago) maybe I'd be more inclined to listen. But the plan submitted is garbage.
 
B

batsnacks

Member
Kawl_USC said:
Because as Blarg outlines, it's a suboptimal play when you can think slightly outside the box and the narrative that's been pushed continuously today. Lynching a 3rd party which provides information not just concerning the two "conflicting" claims but also other couples who seemed linked as well is a more beneficial play.
Click to expand...
No it is not suboptimal play to lynch into a pool of two people that is guaranteed to contain at least 1 mafia.

And that is why you get lynched first. Kark suiciding himself to get you lynched doesn't happen ever if he's mafia. 1 for 1 trades are horrible for mafia.
 
S

*Splinter

Member
Blargonaut said:
Do you actually have anything constructive to add, *Splint, instead of being dismissive of us?

What do you actually think about the points I put forward in my 'Team Zippador' underlined section in the first half?
Click to expand...
I was still reading.

And FTR long posts are impossible to quote on mobile, I'd prefer short posts all day but people worry about post count for some reason.
 
Z

Zippedpinhead

Member
So what your saying is the following:

1: we need to slow down
2: part of Kark and my play is to distract us from time/flux
3: it's possible we have two town aligned trackers
4: that Kark and I might be in cahoots with *splinter/Cabot and timeflux
5: with one more night of two trackers we may gain additional information beneficial to town

And your proposal is to lynch time/flux instead, as it offers us the most information relative to your flip and Kark and my team's flip.

I disagree with your assessment of Kark and I being a distraction from time/flux, though you bring up interesting points for Cabot and *splinter...

And I would add one more to your flip
3: by flipping team BLAWL first, you find out whether or not ultrajay X Boo Boo'n are scum in collusion with them, as ultraboo (specifically Boo Boo'n) has been running a weird interference. Agreeing with the points against Blawl but not actively voting for anyone. Ultra had a vote out early against launch but rescinded it.

In the interest of being forthcoming our official role title is this

a Pair of Old People who love to peek at things.

It's also part of the reason we didn't like the role cop claim yesterday. We really are an X shot tracker, though no rationale as to why it is so is in our flavor. Just comments about aggressive birds, itelephones, and micecraft (or was it minedraft?)

I am torn, we could always lynch you tomorrow and policy lynch timeflux for the blatant lies day 1 (your proposal).

We could also lynch you (or ourselves) today, and then figure it out tomorrow based on who lives tonight
 
S

*Splinter

Member
Blargonaut said:
Do you actually have anything constructive to add, *Splint, instead of being dismissive of us?

What do you actually think about the points I put forward in my 'Team Zippador' underlined section in the first half?
Click to expand...
Forgot to answer the question.

I agree that your situation is roughly equivalent to Kark's, minus the Miller angle. I've never said Kark can't be scum, but he had the advantage (not being a Miller), and actually made an argument for your lynch. You've provided nothing for too long, and now suggested we lynch Flux, which I've already described as garbage.

So that's why my vote is on you (in spirit)
 
B

Blargonaut

Banned
*Splinter said:
Lynch Flux? That's a terrible idea even if you actually think he's scum.

Everyone has been wasting today away and even pushing for a turbo because we're essentially forced into Kark v Blarg. If we lynch Flux today then we get to waste the next day as well? Fuck that.

Let's work under the assumption Blarg is telling the truth AND correct about Flux.
1. Blarg dies today, flips Miller-tracker
2. Kark is the fake/scum tracker, gets lynched tomorrow
3. According to you we should then be looking at Flux who Kark "saved", and now that we have Kark's flip that's a slightly better argument. If he does in fact get lynched and flip scum, great that's 2 pairs down already, 1 left (which is apparently me). What an abysmal play by the scum team eh?

If you're telling the truth but wrong about Flux, here's what happens:

1. Lynch Flux, flips town.
2. Repeat this shitty day, eventually lynch Blarg, flips town.
3. Finally lynch Kark, flips scum.

That's a mess that probably leaves us close to lylo, and without knowing Flux's alignment this is what you've suggested??

The ONLY reason to lynch outside of you/Kark is to delay your own death. If you had made a strong case against Kark (about 48 hours ago) maybe I'd be more inclined to listen. But the plan submitted is garbage.
Click to expand...

It is garbage to you because in your entire post above, you have conveniently omitted your own connection to Timeflux in your continually staunch defense of him. Lynching Timeflux is a test of your own alignment as well; thus, lynching them is a source of more intel to Town in the form of more gathered leads (refer to the body of my proposal in Part 2; I counted 5 more leads by lynching Timeflux, compared to 2 if you lynch us).

And of course this plan is intended to delay our own death. Why would I submit a plan to you that advocates my own lynching? That is a nonsense critique.
 
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