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[farisr]

Sony now says my ice cream isn't made with real 100% dairy milk, if I want the true authentic ice cream experience with real dairy milk I need to pay more.

Oh, down the road using 100% real vanilla extract is exclusive to the "True" ice cream experience. Anyone who doesn't pay for this get's shitty fake tasting vanilla ice cream.

Is that better?

No.

 

[backbreaker65]

Sony now says my ice cream isn't made with real 100% dairy milk, if I want the true authentic ice cream experience with real dairy milk I need to pay more.

Oh, down the road using 100% real vanilla extract is exclusive to the "True" ice cream experience. Anyone who doesn't pay for this get's shitty fake tasting vanilla ice cream.

Is that better?

That was weak dude.

 

[icespide]

Sony now says my ice cream isn't made with real 100% dairy milk, if I want the true authentic ice cream experience with real dairy milk I need to pay more.

Oh, down the road using 100% real vanilla extract is exclusive to the "True" ice cream experience. Anyone who doesn't pay for this get's shitty fake tasting vanilla ice cream.

Is that better?

lolno

 

[2thepoint]

Sony now says my ice cream isn't made with real 100% dairy milk, if I want the true authentic ice cream experience with real dairy milk I need to pay more.

Oh, down the road using 100% real vanilla extract is exclusive to the "True" ice cream experience. Anyone who doesn't pay for this get's shitty fake tasting vanilla ice cream.

Is that better?

 

[Inuhanyou]

That's guys twitter is really awful. He's got some shitty ideas about society.

Surprised he's not a banned source.

I dont wanna get political but...yeah, you can tell right away that being edgy is the thing. Sorry Colin, but while your rightfully opinionated, doesn't mean your right all the time, or most of the time.

Open mindedness to new things is really what this kind of concept is all about, and fear mongering about something that hasn't been tried doesn't really win any browny points with those of us who want to give it a chance.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

My point is something like that would split the userbase less because they wouldn't be focusing on two sets of hardware on a closed platform, that is a recipe for disaster.

Not really since it's basically the same either way .
In fact this way is much easier since the hardware much closer together .
Along with having the right tools and sdk.

 

[Abdiel]

Sony now says my ice cream isn't made with real 100% dairy milk, if I want the true authentic ice cream experience with real dairy milk I need to pay more.

Oh, down the road using 100% real vanilla extract is exclusive to the "True" ice cream experience. Anyone who doesn't pay for this get's shitty fake tasting vanilla ice cream.

Is that better?

You are reaching so, so hard, and failing, so so hard, man.

Trying to make the perception something other than what it is, doesn't make it that thing.

Sony isn't changing anything about what you already have. Please stop this narrative. Until such time as we have verification that you have, in fact, stopped getting the games you were supposed to be getting with your core purchase, there has been absolutely no evidence provided by any of this, to suggested otherwise.

And your attempt above just feels really... sad. You've argued some thought provoking considerations, but by and large, the point comes down to that in the end, nothing has been shown to say that any of these concerns have actually been grounded in established fact, especially when you look at what the leaked documents specifically say.

Fair enough and I understand your points completely, I still feel however that putting the extra burden on developers to try and squeeze extra from a game will surely cost more than it's worth in most instances?

Take for example if Naughty Dog decided they could try and squeeze 60fps out of the neo for uncharted 4. That would require them going through the entire thing from scratch and optimizing it to ensure a constant smooth 60fps experience.

The extra cost associated for this sort of thing for smaller studios would be quite high I imagine, even for a studio like Naughty Dog it would require significant effort?

Or maybe I am just being pessimistic in this regard, I would consider the upgrade for sure if it means better framerates on Sony exclusives and higher fidelity but at the same time I could also understand why developers may be slightly annoyed by trying to cater for two sets of hardware as opposed to one.

It's certainly extra time for review and consideration of any possible alterations within the game environment, but at the same time, with any projects moving forward, it would just be budgeted as part of the existing builds, rather than having to be built for starting over from the beginning. They'd be able to take the the same existing arrangements, and compile for both setups, and test through for optimization as part of the same sets of passes, rather than having to re-do such things with a nearly complete game, in the case of Uncharted.

I'm not discounting that it's still something newly added... but it also allows for expanding the audience and the potential market base, by giving Sony ways to leverage the Core model at even more effective pricing, so they can continue to sell even more software, so to speak. Growth potential expands out. I was on a podcast last night and there was a dev on there as well, who stated that his perspective was it shouldn't complicate things much more, since other platforms have so much potential iterations already innately in them, at least with a closed platform, you can make those passes consistent for optimization purposes.

 

[Killing_Joke]

Do we really think Sony would do this without any developer input?

We got an entirely new controller because they went directly to developers, they bumped up the RAM to 8GB because they asked for it, and probably some other stuff.

If Neo had this much negative feedback i doubt Sony would have gone through with it.

 

[family_guy]

Fair enough and I understand your points completely, I still feel however that putting the extra burden on developers to try and squeeze extra from a game will surely cost more than it's worth in most instances?

Take for example if Naughty Dog decided they could try and squeeze 60fps out of the neo for uncharted 4. That would require them going through the entire thing from scratch and optimizing it to ensure a constant smooth 60fps experience.

The extra cost associated for this sort of thing for smaller studios would be quite high I imagine, even for a studio like Naughty Dog it would require significant effort?

Or maybe I am just being pessimistic in this regard, I would consider the upgrade for sure if it means better framerates on Sony exclusives and higher fidelity but at the same time I could also understand why developers may be slightly annoyed by trying to cater for two sets of hardware as opposed to one.

Depends on the game engine and apis. Hell give it to Bluepoint Games.

 

[Audioboxer]

Do we really think Sony would do this without any developer input?

We got an entirely new controller because they went directly to developers, they bumped up the RAM to 8GB because they asked for it, and probably some other stuff.

If Neo had this much negative feedback i doubt Sony would have gone through with it.

Of course they'll be working with devs and getting input. None of that can really go public yet though in any meaningful way as the damn thing hasn't even been revealed as legit yet.

 

[Weapon of War]

I'm late in jumping on the PS I Love You XOXO bandwagon. This was my second time listening to the podcast, but unfortunately it was so negative I couldn't help but turn it off about 30 minutes or so into it. Is this a normal Kinda Funny show or just an outlier?

If I understand correctly, the Neo can play all regular PS4 games, so going forward is it possible that new PS4 games can just target the PS4, but also be ran on newer machines (much like setting the target OS on iPhone and Android app development)?

 

[nib95]

In other words:
I used to enjoy ice cream, until I realized that someone out there might have ice cream with sprinkles. Now I hate ice cream and also fuck everyone.

It could also be more like he bought an ice cream from the ice cream van man, and then in the middle of him eating it, the ice cream van man announces that he's releasing a new ice cream, the very flavour he just bought, but now with sprinkles, chocolate sauce and a flake on top, for not that much extra money. Now he's annoyed that it's been announced in the middle of him still eating, instead of when he first ordered, or well after he'd finished and would have been hungry for another.

 

[Papacheeks]

You are reaching so, so hard, and failing, so so hard, man.

Trying to make the perception something other than what it is, doesn't make it that thing.

Sony isn't changing anything about what you already have. Please stop this narrative. Until such time as we have verification that you have, in fact, stopped getting the games you were supposed to be getting with your core purchase, there has been absolutely no evidence provided by any of this, to suggested otherwise.

And your attempt above just feels really... sad. You've argued some thought provoking considerations, but by and large, the point comes down to that in the end, nothing has been shown to say that any of these concerns have actually been grounded in established fact, especially when you look at what the leaked documents specifically say.



It's certainly extra time for review and consideration of any possible alterations within the game environment, but at the same time, with any projects moving forward, it would just be budgeted as part of the existing builds, rather than having to be built for starting over from the beginning. They'd be able to take the the same existing arrangements, and compile for both setups, and test through for optimization as part of the same sets of passes, rather than having to re-do such things with a nearly complete game, in the case of Uncharted.

I'm not discounting that it's still something newly added... but it also allows for expanding the audience and the potential market base, by giving Sony ways to leverage the Core model at even more effective pricing, so they can continue to sell even more software, so to speak. Growth potential expands out. I was on a podcast last night and there was a dev on there as well, who stated that his perspective was it shouldn't complicate things much more, since other platforms have so much potential iterations already innately in them, at least with a closed platform, you can make those passes consistent for optimization purposes.

Wow, so I comment because someone that's being a tool, decides to post stupid ice cream references that people are acting like children. I up till that last post have done nothing but support my thoughts and sentiment with other media figure heads from Gamespot, IGN and such who have put in their thoughts on it.
I was truly acting out on how childish and stupid it is to try and demean someone's opinion on what they think of this situation. Which is what who ever it is was doing by posting that stupid picture and stupid ice cream remark.
Where in my conversation iv had did I say anything about it complicating things? My thoughts are with Jeff's from The lobby episode that it's weird uncharted waters. And that this has a huge potential to backfire on a consumer industry level.

Thinking that down the road if these "Neo consoles sell well, that Nintendo and the likes wont follow suite, and we wont have frame rate misshaps on OG PS4 on 1 or 2 titles is really reaching. It's a high possibility of happening as Jeff and the Beyond people talk about.
Going down this road easily leads to it. It did on a much smaller scale on N3DS and did on a different scale during the 90's. If they stick it out for 2-3 more years and come out with another console that's x86 but really beefy and uses similar AMD components I dont see how going that route uproots anything.
If by then they will be able to use 14nm out the wazzu and pay hardly anything for it, along with HBM2 memeory, and all around faster cheaper parts.
There's no need for this device period. I have yet outside of maybe VR seen the need for it, or have I seen developers complain about their situation.

 

[davitpr]

These threads are so ridiculous, they need to die.

 

[timmyp53]

Wow, so I comment because someone that's being a tool, decides to post stupid ice cream references that people are acting like children.

Reading a bit too much into the analogy mate.

It could also be more like he bought an ice cream from the ice cream van man, and then in the middle of him eating it, the ice cream van man announces that he's releasing a new ice cream, the very flavour he just bought, but now with sprinkles, chocolate sauce and a flake on top, for not that much extra money. Now he's annoyed that it's been announced in the middle of him still eating, instead of when he first ordered, or well after he'd finished and would have been hungry for another.

Lol I guess. Or the icecream man invented a device that drops 5 sprinkles and slides into your mouth at twice the smoothness and efficiency of the standard icecream eating experience.

Spoiler

servebots ice cream analogy has been butchered so good now XD

 

[Abdiel]

Wow, so I comment because someone that's being a tool, decides to post stupid ice cream references that people are acting like children. I up till that last post have done nothing but support my thoughts and sentiment with other media figure heads from Gamespot, IGN and such who have put in their thoughts on it.
I was truly acting out on how childish and stupid it is to try and demean someone's opinion on what they think of this situation. Which is what who ever it is was doing by posting that stupid picture and stupid ice cream remark.
Where in my conversation iv had did I say anything about it complicating things? My thoughts are with Jeff's from The lobby episode that it's weird uncharted waters. And that this has a huge potential to backfire on a consumer industry level.

Thinking that down the road if these "Neo consoles sell well, that Nintendo and the likes wont follow suite, and we wont have frame rate misshaps on OG PS4 on 1 or 2 titles is really reaching. It's a high possibility of happening as Jeff and the Beyond people talk about.
Going down this road easily leads to it. It did on a much smaller scale on N3DS and did on a different scale during the 90's. If they stick it out for 2-3 more years and come out with another console that's x86 but really beefy and uses similar AMD components I dont see how going that route uproots anything.
If by then they will be able to use 14nm out the wazzu and pay hardly anything for it, along with HBM2 memeory, and all around faster cheaper parts.
There's no need for this device period. I have yet outside of maybe VR seen the need for it, or have I seen developers complain about their situation.

The snarky Ice cream quote, was still a direct comment on the fact that, until directly proven otherwise, people seem to be upset at the idea of people being able to pay for more than what they have. Your comment completely changed the context and concept to the idea that they took away something from you, or were no longer giving something that you had rightfully paid for, and there's no evidence, anywhere, to suggest that that will in at all be the case.

Like I said, you've argued some thought provoking considerations, but the ice cream thing was a terrible reach, and it did you no favors in trying to make a point. It was a poor, poor rebuttal to their snark.

I'm not sure what you're talking about the complications though. I didn't say anything about anything being more complicated in my comment to you? It is going to be new territory for the gaming market, sure, but the larger financial market seems to see this as a good chance to succeed from analyst perceptions from such things as CNBC, and as I said in my retail thread. I said in my retail thread, there's plenty of things they have to be aware of, but at the same time Sony isn't a stranger to these things, and we've had comments from GopherD, Matt, and Zoetis, all people directly familiar with Sony's movements internally, and they've all made it clear that they are conscious of those things.

 

[UnwrittenZero]

These threads are so ridiculous, they need to die.

This, I wish people would chill let's see all the facts first before proclamations of the end of games gets thrown around. If people are correct in saying tech isn't going to be ready for a true ps5 till 2020, this is very much needed. I don't want another super long gen. Hell people where complaining that this gen has no new features that wasn't done before, well here you go the big new feature this gen is hardware upgrades. I've wanted this since they Asia Sony exec talked about along time ago. What do we really know about what this industry needs for all we know this not wanting shit to change could be the death of console gaming. This is like the model A and someone saying fuck you mr. Ford I just bought a horse last month.

 

[Papacheeks]

The snarky Ice cream quote, was still a direct comment on the fact that, until directly proven otherwise, people seem to be upset at the idea of people being able to pay for more than what they have. Your comment completely changed the context and concept to the idea that they took away something from you, or were no longer giving something that you had rightfully paid for, and there's no evidence, anywhere, to suggest that that will in at all be the case.

Like I said, you've argued some thought provoking considerations, but the ice cream thing was a terrible reach, and it did you no favors in trying to make a point. It was a poor, poor rebuttal to their snark.

I'm not sure what you're talking about the complications though. I didn't say anything about anything being more complicated in my comment to you? It is going to be new territory for the gaming market, sure, but the larger financial market seems to see this as a good chance to succeed from analyst perceptions from such things as CNBC, and as I said in my retail thread. I said in my retail thread, there's plenty of things they have to be aware of, but at the same time Sony isn't a stranger to these things, and we've had comments from GopherD, Matt, and Zoetis, all people directly familiar with Sony's movements internally, and they've all made it clear that they are conscious of those things.

No, what I don't like is the slippery slope this easily could sink the industry if people buy it. If people buy other companies will follow. When that happens Sony who is already of thinking of getting out making PS5 with the recent Lorne lanning conversation with Shu at DICE summit.

That scares me and iterative console pushes into territory that leads to og PS4 getting phased out. Once they stop making that model in favor of neo being the main model for higher margins it will cause developers to make compromise on certain versions if games regardless of mandates set by the platform holder.

I apologize about the bad ice cream analogy but I'm getting tired of dismissive attitudes ice cream guy included. You talk in absolute s which doesn't help the discussion regardless of talking to developers on a podcast.

Seeing Jeff , ign, Colin talk about this shaky approach is valid.

Right now you or I don't know more than the other in how the industry will react and how it will change going forward.

 

[CosmicQueso]

I'm late in jumping on the PS I Love You XOXO bandwagon. This was my second time listening to the podcast, but unfortunately it was so negative I couldn't help but turn it off about 30 minutes or so into it. Is this a normal Kinda Funny show or just an outlier?

If I understand correctly, the Neo can play all regular PS4 games, so going forward is it possible that new PS4 games can just target the PS4, but also be ran on newer machines (much like setting the target OS on iPhone and Android app development)?

It's an outlier. They are both generally positive and knowledgable. These guys are huge Sony fans and it's a bit of a shame this is how many are getting introduced to them.

Part of what's disappointing about the tweet and aftermath for me is I've spent as long as I can remember listening to them on podcast beyond and the new show and I find the way this has gone a bit beneath Colin. It's a bit of a letdown. I understand his point, just wish he would have presented it without saying things like "it's a big middle finger to everyone who bought a PS4". But hey, it's his show and he's worked hard to get where he is so I still respect the guy and position.

 

[Vena]

In other words:
I used to enjoy ice cream, until I realized that someone out there might have ice cream with sprinkles. Now I hate ice cream and also fuck everyone.

You can add sprinkles to sprinkle-less ice cream after the fact.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Movalpolos.... I don't know why you hate Colin so much but I just watched through the link you posted and I still disagree with your prior assertions that he was being intentionally deceptive.

All points listed are no different than those presented on by both sides of this thread.

 

[Jacksinthe]

No, what I don't like is the slippery slope this easily could sink the industry if people buy it. If people buy other companies will follow. When that happens Sony who is already of thinking of getting out making PS5 with the recent Lorne lanning conversation with Shu at DICE summit.

Stop it.

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.

You want to know something? We just might be on the cusp of ditching "generations" as we know it. Technology that can be released every 3-4 years with improvements and allowing your entire console catalog to move forward at a pace the consumer can decide. This won't sink the fucking industry if people buy it. The PS5 thing not happening is because maybe, here on out, we will see platforms revolve around the OS, allowing you to play whatever you want from the platform holder from whatever generation.

Choices. Options. These are things consumers LIKE. This is a long game. It has fuck all to do with immediacy.

That scares me and iterative console pushes into territory that leads to og PS4 getting phased out. Once they stop making that model in favor of neo being the main model for higher margins it will cause developers to make compromise on certain versions if games regardless of mandates set by the platform holder.

Is Ford still producing the 1968 Mustang Fastback? Or are they shitbags for not supporting that platform any longer?

The idea of making new tech is to SELL IT. Period. Of course the PS4 will be phased out in favor of new consoles that you can CARRY YOUR CATALOG TO. Do you think when it's phased out 5 or 6 years from now people will actually look to buy one of them? Or do you think people will just grab the newest PlayStation or Xbox platform? It plays all the same games, right?

As for the PS4 owners, they will still get games and I'm sure something will be put in place that halts game production after X time because - that's exactly how we've been doing it. Now we will just have consoles at a faster clip with better tech, forward/backwards compatibility. Keeping up with advancements in tech.

Again, this is the long game.

Seeing Jeff , ign, Colin talk about this shaky approach is valid.

What? No. That doesn't validate ANYTHING but YOUR BELIEFS. Much like Colin chose to talk to his "source" to confirm HIS fears - to validate HIS opinion. Why do people listen to Rush Limbaugh? To validate their own fucking beliefs. Doesn't make anything that guy says correct.

He can easily come here and flat out ask developers opinions in our development thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=965454

Did he? Didn't think so. We may be indie devs over there but there's a few of us from AAA studios that participate, too.

Instead of playing a game of "dude, i totally heard from a dude who totally heard from a bunch of dudes" - he could have came to us and asked us directly. He could EASILY reach out candidly to devs to get the real story but here we are.

No. That is bullshit. You want to know what we think? Fucking ask us. We're easy to reach. This "trusted source" is nothing more than his own personal validation.

Don't ever confuse personal validation with hard facts. Ever.

Could this whole fucking thing crash and burn? Yep. Do i think so? Nope. Are some devs worried? Yep. Most don't know a damn thing about it - no shit speculation goes through the roof.

I said before i'm a "the glass is at 50% capacity" kind of guy with a slight lean towards "half full". I take things as i see them and right now i see rumors and speculation on something that might not even legitimately exist. If it does exist I trust Sony and, by extension, Microsoft, will get it right. This drastic of a change to the console space has to be flawless on multiple fronts.

If it is real - MS and Sony already got approval and the nods from devs to pull the trigger. Without them on board - NONE of this would ever come to fruition so don't take the few rumored haters as "validation".

Way the fuck more is going on behind the scenes.

I'm out.

Peace all!

 

[Abdiel]

No, what I don't like is the slippery slope this easily could sink the industry if people buy it. If people buy other companies will follow. When that happens Sony who is already of thinking of getting out making PS5 with the recent Lorne lanning conversation with Shu at DICE summit.

That scares me and iterative console pushes into territory that leads to og PS4 getting phased out. Once they stop making that model in favor of neo being the main model for higher margins it will cause developers to make compromise on certain versions if games regardless of mandates set by the platform holder.

I apologize about the bad ice cream analogy but I'm getting tired of dismissive attitudes ice cream guy included. You talk in absolute s which doesn't help the discussion regardless of talking to developers on a podcast.

Seeing Jeff , ign, Colin talk about this shaky approach is valid.

Right now you or I don't know more than the other in how the industry will react and how it will change going forward.

It's entirely reasonable to be hesitant, or take a long view of things you would like to avoid this industry taking a particular slant, but to do so requires you to build layers of assumption on assumption.

And it's been said already, that the comment by Shu wasn't an interview, it was an informal dinner, not made in regards to Sony's actual plans, they've made those kinds of comments in regards to the previous generations until such time as the actual announcements were made for what the new hardware would be. They're always coy, and speculative about what they'll do next.

It just doesn't make good sense to start building layers and layers of assumption and pessimism, especially in contradiction to existing business trends. Beyond that, all we can do is wait to see, and make it as clear as possible that we expect them to continue full support of the existing hardware.

I also don't see any reason why they would *stop* selling the core model. The lower they can get the price on it, the more they can sell it, which is the best business model available, there's no reason to entirely replace it entirely with the Neo.

 

[thelastword]

I don't think he is being deceptive.

He just seems like hes pissed off with everything.

PS4 Neo may not be for everyone, but this complaining for the sake of complaining about everything and anything is just so withering.

Its fucking gaming, not life or death.

I think he is, I got to the first 20 mins of the podcast and I heard everything he had to say. Saying most developers are not happy is a definitive statement, it's not backed by anything "but a mysterious source". That's smoke and mirrors, Moriarty knows he has an audience/following and he uses that to ignite some pitch and fork charge out of pure baseless emotion.

In the 20 mins I watched, he had two points which he made over and over again...."why does Sony not launch a PS5 in 2018" and "Sony is on a roll with 40 million consoles, why do it now, why why why"? I mean that was his main points....

I just find him too emotional on an issue of business and hardware. What is with the talk of him being in the top 1% of playstation fandom and that he bought every playstation device, I bought every playstation, do I deserve special treatment,? and if not, show signs of personal conflict when a company does something for their own bottomline? Should I throw a fit because Sony is offering a better system that will cater to an emerging and evolving market because I bought a system yesterday or last year, hell even 3 years ago?

Why do persons who bought a product on the market yesterday, want to infringe on what product is placed on the shelf tomorrow? That is insane, this is similar to buying an iPhone 5 the day before iPhone 6 releases and you go screaming and hollering at the persons buying their iPhone6 on the following day.

Moriarty is so against this, so emotionally vested in this he cites a man buying his console 4 months ago as being the big loser from all this, where the dreaded middle finger is raised to him by the huge nasty corporation...Is that true? NO. If I buy a PS4 today, does support stop for it? NO. The only reason where such emotion should be dredged is if Sony said "Today we stop production of the OG PS4 and also support for the OG PS4", if you want to play any future titles you must buy a NEO, now that would require such reactions, but not this. In the same way buying an IPhone5 ahead of the iPhone 6 release does not change the fact that content for the iPhone 6 will still be available day and date for the iPhone 5.

The point is, Sony is not pushing the NEO down anybody's throat, Moriarty says a PS5 in 2018 makes more sense, what would that have? Zen + Vega, how does he know that it would be perfectly backwards compatible with PS4 software, perhaps the very reason Sony did not change the CPU for PS4K is an issue of incompatibility with PS4 software.

How does launching a PS5 in 2018 change things massively and offset the points he made against NEO? So lets say a guy bought a PS4 3 months before his proposed PS5 drops in 2018...with full PS4 BC, won't that guy feel slighted too? At what point do you buy any product on the market when there's not something better elsewhere or something better releasing in two weeks or two months or 6 months?

The market will determine if NEO rides or die, let it do so, all the people who are against it, speak with your wallets, I know I will speak with mine, but don't lead no charge against what is an improved product because "you don't see the need, you're not interested or you just bought your system, because that system you bought will still be functional and supported" That is selfishness if I ever saw it and to want it to fail for such reasons is very childish". Tbh I wish such fired charges could be directed at all the crap products we've been getting on consoles like Battlemage, Fallout4, JC3 and all around lacklustre software efforts. We're so forgiving of low framerates, as I'm sure someone is perfectly fine with Battlemage on consoles....We're less pitchforky about efforts like battlemage Witcher 3 etc...but want to blow a gasket because an upgraded console (a positive thing as it relates to better playing games, higher rez, higher framerates) is enroute. This is truly bizarre to me.

 

[Clear]

The important, interesting, thing about PS4.5/NEO is the thing we don't know about yet.

PRICE.

And if/what that means for the "BASE" Ps4's price-point.


Seems to me as usual people are so busy arguing over the principles of its existence, that the thing that will decide whether it fails or succeeds is being overlooked.

I think it presents a fascinating opportunity to actually see how the mass-market responds to and values in basic cash terms premium performance gaming hardware.

Because ultimately that's all that NEO represents, there is no promise of "exclusive content" to be made if the leaked TRC guidelines are to be believed. It simply is, the same stuff at a higher res and potentially higher/more stable frame-rate.

 

[Papacheeks]

Stop it.

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.

You want to know something? We just might be on the cusp of ditching "generations" as we know it. Technology that can be released every 3-4 years with improvements and allowing your entire console catalog to move forward at a pace the consumer can decide. This won't sink the fucking industry if people buy it. The PS5 thing not happening is because maybe, here on out, we will see platforms revolve around the OS, allowing you to play whatever you want from the platform holder from whatever generation.

Choices. Options. These are things consumers LIKE. This is a long game. It has fuck all to do with immediacy.



Is Ford still producing the 1968 Mustang Fastback? Or are they shitbags for not supporting that platform any longer?

The idea of making new tech is to SELL IT. Period. Of course the PS4 will be phased out in favor of new consoles that you can CARRY YOUR CATALOG TO. Do you think when it's phased out 5 or 6 years from now people will actually look to buy one of them? Or do you think people will just grab the newest PlayStation or Xbox platform? It plays all the same games, right?

As for the PS4 owners, they will still get games and I'm sure something will be put in place that halts game production after X time because - that's exactly how we've been doing it. Now we will just have consoles at a faster clip with better tech, forward/backwards compatibility. Keeping up with advancements in tech.

Again, this is the long game.



What? No. That doesn't validate ANYTHING but YOUR BELIEFS. Much like Colin chose to talk to his "source" to confirm HIS fears - to validate HIS opinion. Why do people listen to Rush Limbaugh? To validate their own fucking beliefs. Doesn't make anything that guy says correct.

He can easily come here and flat out ask developers opinions in our development thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=965454

Did he? Didn't think so. We may be indie devs over there but there's a few of us from AAA studios that participate, too.

Instead of playing a game of "dude, i totally heard from a dude who totally heard from a bunch of dudes" - he could have came to us and asked us directly. He could EASILY reach out candidly to devs to get the real story but here we are.

No. That is bullshit. You want to know what we think? Fucking ask us. We're easy to reach. This "trusted source" is nothing more than his own personal validation.

Don't ever confuse personal validation with hard facts. Ever.

Could this whole fucking thing crash and burn? Yep. Do i think so? Nope. Are some devs worried? Yep. Most don't know a damn thing about it - no shit speculation goes through the roof.

I said before i'm a "the glass is at 50% capacity" kind of guy with a slight lean towards "half full". I take things as i see them and right now i see rumors and speculation on something that might not even legitimately exist. If it does exist I trust Sony and, by extension, Microsoft, will get it right. This drastic of a change to the console space has to be flawless on multiple fronts.

If it is real - MS and Sony already got approval and the nods from devs to pull the trigger. Without them on board - NONE of this would ever come to fruition so don't take the few rumored haters as "validation".

Way the fuck more is going on behind the scenes.

I'm out.

Peace all!

All I'm saying that to my knowledge this new SKU with the smaller dye shrink they are getting a way better deal on parts. If your supplier gives you bigger incentive and savings as a business. So there's a bigger incentive to phase out old chips to get higher margins in newer chip.

And if they are willing 2.5 years in to have a refresh with spec increases what's stopping them another 2-3 years having another one. It's a never ending chasing the spec rabbit.

You say tech released every 3-4 yet this is coming in less than 3. And as chips get cheaper and dye, memory changes happen deals get made and iterations can happen more frequently when they are making much more on each console.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I think he is, I got to the first 20 mins of the podcast and I heard everything he had to say. Saying most developers are not happy is a definitive statement, it's not backed by anything "but a mysterious source". That's smoke and mirrors, Moriarty knows he has an audience/following and he uses that to ignite some pitch and fork charge out of pure baseless emotion.

In the 20 mins I watched, he had two points which he made over and over again...."why does Sony not launch a PS5 in 2018" and "Sony is on a roll with 40 million consoles, why do it now, why why why"? I mean that was his main points....

I just find him too emotional on an issue of business and hardware. What is with the talk of him being in the top 1% of playstation fandom and that he bought every playstation device, I bought every playstation, do I deserve special treatment,? and if not, show signs of personal conflict when a company does something for their own bottomline? Should I throw a fit because Sony is offering a better system that will cater to an emerging and evolving market because I bought a system yesterday or last year, hell even 3 years ago?

Why do persons who bought a product on the market yesterday, want to infringe on what product is placed on the shelf tomorrow? That is insane, this is similar to buying an iPhone 5 the day before iPhone 6 releases and you go screaming and hollering at the persons buying their iPhone6 on the following day.

Moriarty is so against this, so emotionally vested in this he cites a man buying his console 4 months ago as being the big loser from all this, where the dreaded middle finger is raised to him by the huge nasty corporation...Is that true? NO. If I buy a PS4 today, does support stop for it? NO. The only reason where such emotion should be dredged is if Sony said "Today we stop production of the OG PS4 and also support for the OG PS4", if you want to play any future titles you must buy a NEO, now that would require such reactions, but not this. In the same way buying an IPhone5 ahead of the iPhone 6 release does not change the fact that content for the iPhone 6 will still be available day and date for the iPhone 5.

The point is, Sony is not pushing the NEO down anybody's throat, Moriarty says a PS5 in 2018 makes more sense, what would that have? Zen + Vega, how does he know that it would be perfectly backwards compatible with PS4 software, perhaps the very reason Sony did not change the CPU for PS4K is an issue of incompatibility with PS4 software.

How does launching a PS5 in 2018 change things massively and offset the points he made against NEO? So lets say a guy bought a PS4 3 months before his proposed PS5 drops in 2018...with full PS4 BC, won't that guy feel slighted too? At what point do you buy any product on the market when there's not something better elsewhere or something better releasing in two weeks or two months or 6 months?

The market will determine if NEO rides or die, let it do so, all the people who are against it, speak with your wallets, I know I will speak with mine, but don't lead no charge against what is an improved product because "you don't see the need, you're not interested or you just bought your system, because that system you bought will still be functional and supported" That is selfishness if I ever saw it and to want it to fail for such reasons is very childish". Tbh I wish such fired charges could be directed at all the crap products we've been getting on consoles like Battlemage, Fallout4, JC3 and all around lacklustre software efforts. We're so forgiving of low framerates, as I'm sure someone is perfectly fine with Battlemage on consoles....We're less pitchforky about efforts like battlemage Witcher 3 etc...but want to blow a gasket because an upgraded console (a positive thing as it relates to better playing games, higher rez, higher framerates) is enroute. This is truly bizarre to me.

whats interesting is in his example, the guy who bought a PS4 4 months ago, isnt going to buy a PS5 till around Nov 2020 anyway.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

All I'm saying that to my knowledge this new SKU with the smaller dye shrink they are getting a way better deal on parts. If your supplier gives you bigger incentive and savings as a business. So there's a bigger incentive to phase out old chips to get higher margins in newer chip.

And if they are willing 2.5 years in to have a refresh with spec increases what's stopping them another 2-3 years having another one. It's a never ending chasing the spec rabbit.

You say tech released every 3-4 yet this is coming in less than 3. And as chips get cheaper and dye, memory changes happen deals get made and iterations can happen more frequently when they are making much more on each console.

Sony does not control die shrinks and it's taking longer and longer for them to happen.
Also how are die shrinks allow them to get a better deal on parts ?
If Sony was to make current PS4 on the smaller die they would make more money keeping the price around the same.
In fact making this system would not allow them to get the best deal since they will also be making normal PS4 .
So they will not be making them in such a huge amount.
Sony will make less money on PS4k than PS4 depending on price .

 

[Papacheeks]

Sony does not control die shrinks and it's taking longer and longer for them to happen.
Also how are die shrinks allow them to get a better deal on parts ?
If Sony was to make current PS4 on the smaller die they would make more money keeping the price around the same.
In fact making this system would not allow them to get the best deal since they will also be making normal PS4 .
So they will not be making them in such a huge amount.
Sony will make less money on PS4k than PS4 depending on price .

Juguar were based on CPU/Apus already being manufactured for other devices by AMD. If AMD gets a better yield and makes chips that they are going to use more in other devices by other companies buying them then making ps4 chips from same manufacturer line they usually cut deals to companies when they reup a contract.

Sony will make more money. It's the whole point? Getting higher profit margins on hardware. Instead of having to sell a piece of software with the console to turn a profit they can make the same profit and margin on the console alone. Also think of the 4k cross over for AMD. Imagine other companies wanting to buy stock in AMD radeon. Seeing publishers thought 4k uprezzed games running on tv's will help push stock options up.

 

[cheesekao]

You say tech released every 3-4 yet this is coming in less than 3. And as chips get cheaper and dye, memory changes happen deals get made and iterations can happen more frequently when they are making much more on each console.

The damned thing hasn't even been announced yet and the """"rumored"""" date is before 2017. It'll be more than 3 years if they released it after 15/11/16

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Juguar were based on CPU/Apus already being manufactured for other devices by AMD. If AMD gets a better yield and makes chips that they are going to use more in other devices by other companies buying them then making ps4 chips from same manufacturer line they usually cut deals to companies when they reup a contract.

Sony will make more money. It's the whole point? Getting higher profit margins on hardware. Instead of having to sell a piece of software with the console to turn a profit they can make the same profit and margin on the console alone. Also think of the 4k cross over for AMD. Imagine other companies wanting to buy stock in AMD radeon. Seeing publishers thought 4k uprezzed games running on tv's will help push stock options up.

The apu that is in PS4 is not use any where else, yes there are others that close to it but it's not the same .
PS4K will not allow them to get that much higher profit of the hardware .
The cost saving from the die shrink won't be as big since the chip is also bigger comapre to normal PS4 .
Which also mean they don't get saving on cooling or the size of the console .
Also they having more than one PS4 to make means they don't get the same economy of scale comapre to only 1 version .
Sony would have made more money if they just keep the normal PS4 without bringing out new hardware .

 

[Vena]

The apu that is in PS4 is not use any where else.
Yes there are others that close to it but it's not the same .
PS4K will not allow them to get that much higher profit of the hardware .
The cost saving from the die shrink won't be as big since the chip is also bigger comapre to normal PS4 .
Also there they having more than one PS4 to make means they don't get the same economy of scale comapre to only 1 version .
Not matter what Sony would have made more money if they just keep the normal PS4 without bringing out new hardware .

The chip would not be bigger than that of the PS4 if it did indeed undergo a die shrink, less silicon for more gain and less heat (die shrinks help cut back on a lot parts, actually, and greatly help with cost of production). The new hardware would return them to healthier profit margins (as they get to apply cost-cutting sheers to now less than necessary things like plastic and cooling needs) unless they are putting this out at cost somehow (which I doubt, this is a luxury item and it will be sold at a pleasant profit margin) since old hardware has diminishing returns on how much you can cost-save while also cutting MSRP to keep up sales momentum. UHD may ring them higher in terms of margins but even that is done for other parts of the business.

So, I'd question your assertion on what would or would not make more money. In fact, I'd think its the opposite. This is a profitability move on top of being a trojan vector for 4K and UHD media consumption, which is all within company gains.

They aren't doing this as a favor or service to anyone but themselves, they are a multi-branch global conglomerate. (And herein also lies the answer to the question "Why does this exist?" Same reason the N3DS exists, to shore up margins and move more hardware.)

 

[Papacheeks]

The chip would not be bigger than that of the PS4 if it did indeed undergo a die shrink, less silicon for more gain and less heat (die shrinks help cut back on a lot parts, actually, and greatly help with cost of production). The new hardware would return them to healthier profit margins (as they get to apply cost-cutting sheers to now less than necessary things like plastic and cooling needs) unless they are putting this out at cost somehow (which I doubt, this is a luxury item and it will be sold at a pleasant profit margin) since old hardware has diminishing returns on how much you can cost-save while also cutting MSRP to keep up sales momentum. UHD may ring them higher in terms of margins but even that is done for other parts of the business.

So, I'd question your assertion on what would or would not make more money. In fact, I'd think its the opposite. This is a profitability move on top of being a trojan vector for 4K and UHD media consumption, which is all within company gains.

They aren't doing this as a favor or service to anyone but themselves, they are a multi-branch global conglomerate. (And herein also lies the answer to the question "Why does this exist?" Same reason the N3DS exists, to shore up margins and move more hardware.)

Wow first time I think iv thanked you for backing me up vena. Hollyshit I think we just had a moment

 

[gundamkyoukai]

The chip would not be bigger than that of the PS4 if it did indeed undergo a die shrink, less silicon for more gain and less heat (die shrinks help cut back on a lot parts, actually, and greatly help with cost of production). The new hardware would return them to healthier profit margins (as they get to apply cost-cutting sheers to now less than necessary things like plastic and cooling needs) unless they are putting this out at cost somehow (which I doubt, this is a luxury item and it will be sold at a pleasant profit margin) since old hardware has diminishing returns on how much you can cost-save while also cutting MSRP to keep up sales momentum. UHD may ring them higher in terms of margins but even that is done for other parts of the business.

So, I'd question your assertion on what would or would not make more money. In fact, I'd think its the opposite. This is a profitability move on top of being a trojan vector for 4K and UHD media consumption, which is all within company gains.

They aren't doing this as a favor or service to anyone but themselves, they are a multi-branch global conglomerate. (And herein also lies the answer to the question "Why does this exist?" Same reason the N3DS exists, to shore up margins and move more hardware.)

You seem to be missing the point , the PS4 chip would have still been smaller .
Which also mean less heat , size etc etc comapre to PS4k.
Which one do you think they would have made more profit from a $300 PS4 or a $400 PS4k.
This also taking into account economy of scale since they make over 1 million PS4 a month .
No way are they going to be making that much PS4k a month .
Think about this Sony has only drop PS4 price by $50 in 2 plus years and die shrink at the same price would have equal more money .
A die shrink would more than cover the cost of a $50 price drop .

 

[Abdiel]

The chip would not be bigger than that of the PS4 if it did indeed undergo a die shrink, less silicon for more gain and less heat (die shrinks help cut back on a lot parts, actually, and greatly help with cost of production). The new hardware would return them to healthier profit margins (as they get to apply cost-cutting sheers to now less than necessary things like plastic and cooling needs) unless they are putting this out at cost somehow (which I doubt, this is a luxury item and it will be sold at a pleasant profit margin) since old hardware has diminishing returns on how much you can cost-save while also cutting MSRP to keep up sales momentum. UHD may ring them higher in terms of margins but even that is done for other parts of the business.

So, I'd question your assertion on what would or would not make more money. In fact, I'd think its the opposite. This is a profitability move on top of being a trojan vector for 4K and UHD media consumption, which is all within company gains.

They aren't doing this as a favor or service to anyone but themselves, they are a multi-branch global conglomerate. (And herein also lies the answer to the question "Why does this exist?" Same reason the N3DS exists, to shore up margins and move more hardware.)

This doesn't address the accessibility of the lower level pricing available to the core model and rapidly being able to leverage that for a much higher chance to sell those, instead of the higher price associated with this, as a premium model in the first place, though.

 

[tuxfool]

Juguar were based on CPU/Apus already being manufactured for other devices by AMD. If AMD gets a better yield and makes chips that they are going to use more in other devices by other companies buying them then making ps4 chips from same manufacturer line they usually cut deals to companies when they reup a contract.

The IP blocks in the devices are designed by AMD, but the APU itself is completely custom.

AMD also doesn't control yields. They only design the APU, they don't manufacture it.

It doesn't help that Foundry economics are completely fucked these days.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Giant Beastcast has a very good conversation on the Neo in today's episode.

EDIT: full breakdown from Austin on his story, interesting bit is about being a pundit versus actually working at Sony, some of the issues that public/pundits don't see/think about that are likely being considered, how that math might work. All sides taken and considered.

 

[VanCityGamer]

Giant Beastcast has a very good conversation on the Neo in today's episode.

Could you please summarize?

 

[Vena]

Wow first time I think iv thanked you for backing me up vena. Hollyshit I think we just had a moment

I generally don't agree with you but some of this is bizarre to me even without having much of an interest in this one way or another.

The ice cream fallacies are what got me actually reading this thread. That may well be the dumbest analogy I have seen all year.

You seem to be missing the point .
The PS4 chip would have still been smaller .
Which also mean less heat , size etc etc comapre to PS4k.
Which one do you think they would have made more profit from a $300 PS4 or a $400 PS4k.
This also taking into account economy of scale since they make over 1 million PS4 a month .
No way are they going to be making that much PS4k a month .
Think about this Sony has only drop PS4 price by $50 in 2 plus years and die shrink at same price would have equal more money .

The PS4 chip is not unable to also see die shrinks (and no where does it say that Sony is going to slash the price of the PS4 more than they would have done naturally without the NEO), why are you making this statement as if one precludes the other? Economies of scale are not infinite in their scaling either, and contracts will soften any changes in this regardless. In fact if they are both put down to 14nm, they could share heavily in the construction to the point of making the economies of scale argument as effectively moot.

Sony is losing money with pack-ins, don't just look at price, look at the foregone software sales on major titles. They use those lost software sales as a way to entice you beyond just dropping MSRP, but its still money that they don't see from you but they will swallow in the idea of getting you involved with the ecosystem.

This doesn't address the accessibility of the lower level pricing available to the core model and rapidly being able to leverage that for a much higher chance to sell those, instead of the higher price associated with this, as a premium model in the first place, though.

The OG was going to drop in price regardless with discounts year after year, or more pack-ins or more lobbied software with offerings, this is all lost "value" to Sony. The NEO allows them to load channels with a new product, free of any value improvements that they can sell at full price without anything attached (with a bunch of bonus perks for trojan). They can now have two products to market, potentially (and let's not kid ourselves, very definitely) get people to buy a second/third replacement console they really don't need but will compulsively upgrade on anyway (see: N3DS). They are increasing the value of an old audience, they are double dipping into that audience's pocket.

There's numerous gains and losses, and I highly doubt they picked the path of them losing money overall.

 

[Jacksinthe]

All I'm saying that to my knowledge this new SKU with the smaller dye shrink they are getting a way better deal on parts. If your supplier gives you bigger incentive and savings as a business. So there's a bigger incentive to phase out old chips to get higher margins in newer chip.

And if they are willing 2.5 years in to have a refresh with spec increases what's stopping them another 2-3 years having another one. It's a never ending chasing the spec rabbit.

You say tech released every 3-4 yet this is coming in less than 3. And as chips get cheaper and dye, memory changes happen deals get made and iterations can happen more frequently when they are making much more on each console.

The point.

No, seriously.

That's the point.

So what if the PS4k replaces the PS4? Your PS4 will still play all the new games.

Guess what? Do you want new tech every few years? Then buy new tech every few years.

Do you want generations again? Then skip an iteration, you'll be fine.

That's the point. Giving people the option to upgrade sooner, carry their catalogs, still play all the new stuff if they don't jump in.

How is an option you aren't forced to buy a bad thing? Don't buy it and wait for the next one. You'll still be playing all the new stuff on PS4 just fine.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

The PS4 chip is not unable to also see die shrinks (and no where does it say that Sony is going to slash the price of the PS4 more than they would have done naturally without the NEO), why are you making this statement as if one precludes the other? Economies of scale are not infinite in their scaling either, and contracts will soften any changes in this regardless. In fact if they are both put down to 14nm, they could share heavily in the construction to the point of making the economies of scale argument as effectively moot.

Sony is losing money with pack-ins, don't just look at price, look at the foregone software sales on major titles. They use those lost software sales as a way to entice you beyond just dropping MSRP, but its still money that they don't see from you but they will swallow in the idea of getting you involved with the ecosystem.

What are you talking about are you saying the current apu in PS4 can't use the upcoming die shrinks .

 

[Vena]

What are you talking about are you saying the current apu in PS4 can't use the upcoming die shrinks .

The opposite.

 

[Chobel]

I generally don't agree with you but some of this is bizarre to me even without having much of an interest in this one way or another.

The ice cream fallacies are what got me actually reading this thread. That may well be the dumbest analogy I have seen all year.

What's wrong with ice cream analogy?

 

[Vena]

What's wrong with ice cream analogy?

You can add scoops to an ice cream you've already bought ("Your ice cream is bigger than mine!"), just go back and ask for another scoop and pay the cost. Or sprinkles ("Your ice cream has sprinkles!"), heck this is just free. And then you can eat it. It is also a perishable good that is consumed.

I cannot add "scoops" to a piece of hardware. Unless it the N64, or someone finds a way for me to download more RAM!.. and a new GPU... and a new thermal profile...

 

[nib95]

You can add scoops to an ice cream you've already bought ("Your ice cream is bigger than mine!"). Or sprinkles ("Your ice cream has sprinkles!"). And then you can eat it. It is also a perishable good that is consumed.

I cannot add "scoops" to a piece of hardware. Unless it the N64, or someone finds a way for me to download more RAM!.. and a new GPU... and a new thermal profile...

Pretty sure the analogy was meant to be in jest...

 

[Vena]

Pretty sure the analogy was meant to be in jest...

If it was then I missed it (in which case disregard!), seems like it was being used rather seriously.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

The opposite.

The current PS4 chip being made on smaller size is huge cost saving .
So the current price of PS4 is $350 with die shrink won't they make more money of it .

 

[Futurematic]

The current PS4 chip being made on smaller size is huge cost saving .
So the current price of PS4 is $350 with die shrink won't they make more money of it .

Cost per mm2 of 14nm is much higher than 28nm.

Edit: At this time. So expect a 14nm regular slim version 2017 as more lines ramp up production.

 

[Vena]

The current PS4 chip being made on smaller size is huge cost saving .
So the current price of PS4 is $350 with die shrink won't they make more money of it .

And so, how does the PS4K existing or not... lose them money on the PS4 in such a scenario? Die shrinks are common and usually come with the release of a slim... which is, also, usually lower in price.

 

[Mechanized]

The sheer hubris of Sony is unmatched. They were in this position before with the ps2, then came the ps3 and they lost to the 360. Now they had a huge success with the ps4 by using the same strategy of the 360, and they are desperately trying to fuck things up yet again by making their hardware harder to develop for? What? What the what?