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[Durante]

To me, it sounds like you're saying here that its completely irrelevant which CPU architecture that is being used. I'm not much of a tech guy, but it has to matter to some extend, otherwise Sony wouldnt have gotten criticism for using the CELL for example.

The architecture is relevant as it pertains to how it needs to be programmed on a higher level. The ISA (that is e.g. x86 or ARM) isn't all that relevant. See also my post further up.

 

[Horp]

They definitelly cares about it. 3rd party support brings in tons of extra money. They (Nintendo) make money on each 3rd party games being sold.



To me, it sounds like you're saying here that its completely irrelevant which CPU architecture that is being used. I'm not much of a tech guy, but it has to matter to some extend, otherwise Sony wouldnt have gotten criticism for using the CELL for example.

The CELL was strange and difficult in many ways. The instruction set was far from the most difficult thing to handle. And that is ehat separates ARM from x86, they are teo different instruction sets.

Edit:
Also, many 3rd party devs use engines that already support ARM due to the abundance of ARM chips in mobile devices.

 

[Woody Invincible]

Disappointed once again. Console Makers, I'm a pc gamer. I'm not going to buy an underpowered box of obsolete parts.

 

[blu]

To me, it sounds like you're saying here that its completely irrelevant which CPU architecture that is being used. I'm not much of a tech guy, but it has to matter to some extend, otherwise Sony wouldnt have gotten criticism for using the CELL for example.

To game devs it mattes to some extent, where some approaches zero. Essentially it matters where assembly or ISA intrinsics were used in the code, which is, nowhere for the great majority of game code. As per the portability problem with CELL - that had nothing to do with the ISA.

 

[test_account]

The architecture is relevant as it pertains to how it needs to be programmed on a higher level. The ISA (that is e.g. x86 or ARM) isn't all that relevant. See also my post further up.

The CELL was strange and difficult in many ways. The instruction set was far from the most difficult thing to handle. And that is ehat separates ARM from x86, they are teo different instruction sets.

Edit:
Also, many 3rd party devs use engines that already support ARM due to the abundance of ARM chips in mobile devices.

To game devs it mattes to some extent, where some approaches zero. Essentially it matters where assembly or ISA intrinsics were used in the code, which is, nowhere for the great majority of game code. As per the portability problem with CELL - that had nothing to do with the ISA.

Fair enough, but to flip the question that was asked earlier, are there any advantages to use X86 over something else?

 

[Hermii]

I still don't understand why people overrate the ISA choice so much these days. It's not even relevant to the vast majority of game development

My guess is that it's because Sony PR made a big deal of it when the ps4 was revealed.

 

[blu]

Fair enough, but to flip the question that was asked earlier, are there any advantages to use X86 over something else?

For sony and ms Jaguar was the natural choice for the timeframe of the design phases of the respective consoles, as it was the top-performing design in its power bracket, along with AMDs expertise at the time. That's not the case anymore, even if we brought Puma in the picture.

 

[Parfait]

I love nintendy but what are they doinnnn

You can't have devs split a hundred different ways and learning a bunch of different architechtures. They're just going to not bother, or go as cheap as possible.

 

[Eolz]

My guess is that it's because Sony PR made a big deal of it when the ps4 was revealed.

Certainly didn't help.
We get some stuff like this at every gen. "But the power of the CELL!" "The Emotion Engine/Blast Processing is vastly superior!" "WiiU has the same CPU as the gamecube!" etc

Technical misconceptions all around sometimes worsened by fanboyism so you don't look like you're wrong if you believe enough in what you see repeated on forums.

 

[lightchris]

Fair enough, but to flip the question that was asked earlier, are there any advantages to use X86 over something else?

There are advantages to use AMD hardware, because they sell APUs with a good price/performance ratio (doesn't mean there can't be other decent options though). That the CPU part happens to be x86 is neither advantageous nor disadvantageous per se.

 

[blu]

I love nintendy but what are they doinnnn

You can't have devs split a hundred different ways and learning a bunch of different architechtures. They're just going to not bother, or go as cheap as possible.

^ Funny how when you dress up some ignorance in animated gifs it becomes even more profound. One of the mysteries of our universe, I guess.

 

[KingBroly]

.

I love nintendy but what are they doinnnn

You can't have devs split a hundred different ways and learning a bunch of different architechtures. They're just going to not bother, or go as cheap as possible.

as people have mentioned before, ARM is something a lot of engines already have support for due to mobile support, so...that really shouldn't be a problem unless you're a company like Nicalis who can't code worth a damn.

 

[McHuj]

I really hope this and the semiaccurate story are true. I think NVIDIA has better tech than AMD. I'd love to see NVIDIAs Denver CPU used.

 

[dc89]

No Nintendo. What are you doing?

 

[test_account]

For sony and ms Jaguar was the natural choice for the timeframe of the design phases of the respective consoles, as it was the top-performing design in its power bracket, along with AMDs expertise at the time. That's not the case anymore, even if we brought Puma in the picture.

There are advantages to use AMD hardware, because they sell APUs with a good price/performance ratio (doesn't mean there can't be other decent options though). That the CPU part happens to be x86 is neither advantageous nor disadvantageous per se.

But are there no advantage of x86 in itself? Its one of the oldest architectures still being used very actively. Is that only due to backward compability, or are there no other advantages?

 

[AcademicSaucer]

LOL. I told you guys it wasn't going to be that powerful but no. You keep on thinking Nintendo is going to produce a beast.

I seriously doubt it will be as powerful as the PS4.

Ps4 is not a beast tho, it's not unrealistic to expect a 2017 machine to be at least as powerful as an underpowered console from 2013

 

[gofreak]

Based on all these rumours I think the handheld will be another punt at the 'traditional' handheld, with reasonable power - a territory Nintendo might hope to still maintain or revive - while the home unit will be something quite non-traditional, not in the vein of a PS4/Xbox alternate. It might not be a TV 'home console' as we've come to know it at all, but perhaps something self-contained that is defined as a home system purely by its stationary nature.

 

[Omnistalgic]

I think part of X1 lackluster gen so far is due to how similar it is to PS4. Nintendo needs to do something different there.

Power is really not an issue for me, and for millions more I believe. Think you guys are exaggerating it’s importance.

 

[Kissenkopf]

Lol, whenever rumors are bad they are taken as fact!

But...I just wait and see.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

I really hope they're going with the modular system upgrades, like one of the patents showed, released within the same year.

 

[Parfait]

^ Funny how when you dress up some ignorance in animated gifs it becomes even more profound. One of the mysteries of our universe, I guess.

Cool

as people have mentioned before, ARM is something a lot of engines already have support for due to mobile support, so...that really shouldn't be a problem unless you're a company like Nicalis who can't code worth a damn.

Apologies, I should have read a bit more.

I guess I'm just worried and panicky.

 

[blu]

But are there no advantage of x86 in itself? Its one of the oldest architectures still being used very actively. Is that only due to backward compability, or are there no other advantages?

x86's advantage on the desktop/server is about BC and intel tech (read: fab) superiority. x86's advantage in a console is immaterial.

 

[Beefy]

Lol, whenever rumors are bad they are taken as fact!

But...I just wait and see.

And when ever rumours are good it is taken as fact by many as well...

Kind of crazy how many different rumours there have been for the NX on here. I just want a none shit gimmick NX and I will be happy.

 

[cyberheater]

Ps4 is not a beast tho, it's not unrealistic to expect a 2017 machine to be at least as powerful as an underpowered console from 2013

It is unrealistic to expect that from Nintendo. They have demonstrated time and time again that they are not interested in competing relative to performance.

 

[Pancakes R Us]

Not sure why anyone would have thought Nintendo was going to get in an arms race with Sony and Microsoft. May as well put a "shocking rumor" tag on this.

Did you see the recent speculation threads? It was the pre Wii U "oh my God it's gonna be super powerful" situation all over again where the crazies get hyped up over unsubstantiated rumours. We're just going through the motions now with rumours saying that it won't be as powerful as rumours hinted, which brings the crazies back down to earth. Next: meltdowns.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Milly Osworth]

I think part of X1 lackluster gen so far is due to how similar it is to PS4. Nintendo needs to do something different there.

Power is really not an issue for me, and for millions more I believe. Think you guys are exaggerating it’s importance.

In the end the sole purpose a videogame console has is being a platform for videogames. If it has more power for a reasonable price, then it's a better platform. Nothing more to it.

Unless Nintendo plans another Wii, but that is not going to happen. If another Wii is their goal, then I'm sure Miyamoto has something amazing like Starfox 0 controls cooked up to wow the world!!

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I think part of X1 lackluster gen so far is due to how similar it is to PS4. Nintendo needs to do something different there.

Power is really not an issue for me, and for millions more I believe. Think you guys are exaggerating it’s importance.

X1 struggled out of the gate because, to the demographic MS was marketing to (CoD/BF/2k/Madden/AC fans) it was just a PS4 with worse graphics that cost $100 more. The biggest 6 month no-brainer of all time.

If the NX is just a PS4 with worse graphics and far less games, it will also struggle to wrestle marketshare from Sony for the life of the console.

 

[wheapon]

And when ever rumours are good it is taken as fact by many as well...

Kind of crazy how many different rumours there have been for the NX on here. I just want a none shit gimmick NX and I will be happy.

You will probably be unhappy if you're not expecting a hook/gimmick. They're definitely going to try something wacky with the NX.

 

[ozfunghi]

^ Funny how when you dress up some ignorance in animated gifs it becomes even more profound. One of the mysteries of our universe, I guess.

Ok Blu, i've missed the rundown of the last 10 pages. How wrong am i to assume (according to Emily's words) that a "modern custom chip" with the "raw power" of the XBO, could handily outperform the XBO itself, if not PS4? If the chip is indeed modern and custom, and delivers the same "raw power" as a XBO, then surely it would have a big actual performance boost over 3 year old chips? On feature set alone perhaps?

I mean, the WiiU GPU did feature less superfloppers than 360, yet (disregarding the CPU) the NFS devs said the GPU actually outperformed it easily.

 

[Neoxon]

But does x86 still not scale upward better, period?

The issue is that the handheld can't really use x86 without taking a hit in the battery life department.

 

[oti]

I don't even know at this point. I see the Wii U and its games and I think "Yeah, those games look great! No real need to make things even shinier." But then you think about the majority of the gaming market that is on PS4 now and they want better graphics from a new piece of tech, and that's a totally legit thing to ask for. New hardware = new investment = better graphics. Why else should they want to play Fallout 5 or whatever on NX? But then the next question arises; will there even be Fallout 5 on NX? Does Bethesda even care? And if they did, would people happily give up PSN or XBL to use an (let's just take our experience with the Nintendo online infrastructure here) inferior gaming network with NNIDs?

There are so many problems here for Nintendo. They could try to go back to the Wii days but for that the NX has got to be something incredible that will make people think: "Yeah, I need this, my phone and tablet aren't enough for my gaming interest, I need this new Nintendo machine". But the more crazy the NX gets the more difficult it is to develop ports etc. etc.

Man, I can't imagine the pressure on Nintendo's execs right now. There's a lot riding on this one.

 

[geordiemp]

As a Ps4 owner and not been interested in Nintendo since Wii, I think a Nvidia X1 low clock for handheld and a souped up X1 for console would be a wise move by Nintendo.

Imagine say a 720p 6 inch handheld that can run Crysis, Nintendo games and maybe even have Android compatibility for Mobile games, all in one device. And it can play Zelda in 720p....

The console would be less than an Xb1 but would be close enough but importantly have access to all the mobile, portable games and res them up to 1080p. Or is it a hybrid.

Either way, its a concept which fits a unique role and would be desirable. Nintendo do not have to play the power home console game to be successful.

Bring out games like Excite truck and Ill come back Nintendo

 

[orioto]

You will probably be unhappy if you're not expecting a hook/gimmick. They're definitely going to try something wacky with the NX.

He said shit gimmick.

A good gimmick can still change everything. Nintendo control innovations have been hit and miss in the last 10 years, but a significant control revolution would still work.

Motion control was never really seen as a progress, but rather a fun alternative to classic controls. Tactile play on NDS was more suited to new styles of gameplay, than actually a progress for popular genres.

THAT is the key to understand Nintendo's lack opportunity. Their innovations never makes what is popular better. They allow for other genres to emerge, which isn't a bad thing..

But what i mean is, let's not fool ourselves thinking control innovation are bad in themselves. If Nintendo comes up with a fps control method that is as revolutionary as was the analog stick before. If it's good enough that hardcore players, e-sport players, can't play without it.. Nintendo is suddenly king again (IF the console is not terribly underpowered obviously..)

 

[Palingenesis]

If true, this will be huge problem for developers

Spoiler

who code in Assembly

 

[Hiltz]

For all those who think Nintendo cares about wanting to be directly competitive with hardware power, let's be reminded of what Shigeru Miyamoto said back in a June 2015 interview:

One of the things about Nintendo that's always been interesting is you've never tried to make a more powerful console with better graphics, and all the stuff that the Xbox has done. Can you explain a little why you've kind of stuck with that?

So unfortunately with our latest system, the Wii U, the price point was one that ended up getting a little higher than we wanted. But what we are always striving to do is to find a way to take novel technology that we can take and offer it to people at a price that everybody can afford. And in addition to that, rather than going after the high-end tech spec race and trying to create the most powerful console, really what we want to do is try to find a console that has the best balance of features with the best interface that anyone can use.

And the reason for that is that, No. 1, we like to do things that are unique and different from other companies, but we also don't want to just end up in a race to have the highest-tech specs in a competition to try to find how we get these expensive tech specs to the lowest price of the other systems. And so there's different ways that we can approach it, and sometimes we look at it just from the sense of offering a system that consumes less power and makes less noise and generates less heat, or sometimes we may look at the size of the media and the size of the system and where it fits within the home.

But really what's most important to us is, how do we create a system that is both unique and affordable so that everyone can afford it and everyone can enjoy it.

 

[E-Cat]

You will probably be unhappy if you're not expecting a hook/gimmick. They're definitely going to try something wacky with the NX.

Something seriously wacky, considering how much the gimmick would have to eat into the hardware resources for the console to manage to be as weak as Xbox One.

They've done it twice before, so no 'worries'.

 

[Beefy]

You will probably be unhappy if you're not expecting a hook/gimmick. They're definitely going to try something wacky with the NX.

I don't mind a gimmick if it is actually a good one.

 

[UrbanRats]

Define 'disappointing'. Disappointing vis-à-vis what is possible to deliver on a 2017 gimmick-free, $299 system with great value? Sure.

Disappointing by contrast to what Wii's/Wii U's relative performance was at the time of release? Debatable.

Disappointing is inherently subjective, so yeah, it'd be disappointing for what my expectations are/were.

Of course i'll likely take whatever, just because i need to play the next 3D Mario.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

This reads like 2013 clock speeds on 2016 chipsets. I would imagine there are going to be efficiency gains regardless.

Until devs get locked in final dev kits, all these power rumors are going to be a nebulous and wild ride. Full of confirmation bias both ways. But unlike the Wii U speculation threads, this will be on the front page of gaf, so prepare youselves!

 

[Captain Smoker]

This thread has the worst posts ever.

Do you people... read stuff before posting?

 

[Eolz]

This thread has the worst posts ever.

Do you people... read stuff before posting?

Thisisneogaf.gif

 

[Rodin]

This thread has the worst posts ever.

Do you people... read stuff before posting?

I think it's pretty obvious that they read the thread title and feel the urge to hurry and shit on Nintendo without bothering to check other posts first. It's a lot like that old "900p/60fps" topic... only worse. And i actually (partially) blame Emily for this, because the article is written to generate these exact reactions (not sure if willingly or simply because she doesn't know how to put technical stuff differently), and she even said she knew this would've happened. It's fun to watch though.

 

[Kintaro]

For all those who think Nintendo cares about wanting to be directly competitive with hardware power, let's be reminded of what Shigeru Miyamoto said back in a June 2015 interview:

Few people want to hear what Miyamoto has to say after Star Fox Zero released and Nintendo "innovating for the sake of innovating."

Nintendo did this twice now and ended up with a console they couldn't take advantage of (the Wii) and one that absolutely bombed (the Wii U). They can say what they what to say but for the past 6+ years, the market has spoken and said otherwise.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

This thread has the worst posts ever.

Do you people... read stuff before posting?

The people that only browse the front page of gaf very are very much react first think later. It's only when a thread goes into community and those people are weeded out and those that care and put thought behind the discussion are left.

It's why the Nintendo doomed etc mentalities persist. The headlines and gif reactions are what they read. They don't stick around for the financial reports, npd leaks, etc that paint a real picture. But you can be sure they will be there for the next hot thread to spout the same reasoning.

 

[lightchris]

But are there no advantage of x86 in itself? Its one of the oldest architectures still being used very actively. Is that only due to backward compability, or are there no other advantages?

The only real advantage is backwards compatibility. Those CPUs are designed for PCs/servers, PCs are x86, you want to maintain compatibility with all the software.
On the negative side there is a bit of overhead because the x86 instruction set is dated and CISC on the outside but all modern processors are RISC on the inside, and the translation that breaks down those complex instructions into (several) simpler instructions needs to happen. It's not a big deal on larger CPUs as far as I'm aware, but it's still a disadvantage.

Ok Blu, i've missed the rundown of the last 10 pages. How wrong am i to assume (according to Emily's words) that a "modern custom chip" with the "raw power" of the XBO, could handily outperform the XBO itself, if not PS4? If the chip is indeed modern and custom, and delivers the same "raw power" as a XBO, then surely it would have a big actual performance boost over 3 year old chips? On feature set alone perhaps?

More modern doesn't necessarily mean more gaming performance with the same raw power (FLOPS, if you will). So it depends.
Looking at AMD for example, performance/FLOP hasn't really increased from GCN 1.0 to GCN 1.2. We'll see if that changes with Polaris/GCN 2.0. If so, and should NX use a AMD GPU again, then yes: Its raw power might be closer to Xbox One while actual gaming performance is closer to PS4. The same might happen if they go for a GPU from Nvidia (as the other rumour suggests - at least for the handheld). Don't expect huge gains though. FLOPs are still a pretty good indicator of GPU performance.

 

[NeonZ]

I love nintendy but what are they doinnnn

You can't have devs split a hundred different ways and learning a bunch of different architechtures. They're just going to not bother, or go as cheap as possible.

They probably want ports between their console and handheld, not from the Sony and Microsoft consoles. The fact that we've seen a couple of Japanese third parties mentioning NX support, while Western third parties have been completely silent or pretty much denied it already (EA) also supports the idea that they're going for a handheld-centric approach.

 

[blu]

Ok Blu, i've missed the rundown of the last 10 pages. How wrong am i to assume (according to Emily's words) that a "modern custom chip" with the "raw power" of the XBO, could handily outperform the XBO itself, if not PS4? If the chip is indeed modern and custom, and delivers the same "raw power" as a XBO, then surely it would have a big actual performance boost over 3 year old chips? On feature set alone perhaps?

I mean, the WiiU GPU did feature less superfloppers than 360, yet (disregarding the CPU) the NFS devs said the GPU actually outperformed it easily.

Let's say that there are two glaring problems with metrics like paper FLOPS (assuming it's what Emily is referring to).

First one is that paper metrics are normally just that - paper metrics. They give you an upper bound of your hypothetical performance, but your sustained performance is a result of much more complex factors and does not need be anywhere near the hypothetical. You can have two parts, A and B, where A has higher hypothetical FLOPS than B, but B does higher sustained FLOPS than A. Actually, reality is full of such examples - current NV vs AMD GPU FLOPS, for instance.

Second big problem is with the definition of 'power' per se. Even when on paper, power is not just FLOPS - it's not just FLOPS for GPUs, and it's definitely not for CPUs. There are a handful of other hw limits that one'd care about before pronouncing this or that part better on-paper than its peer. And that's still on paper.

 

[ozfunghi]

This thread has the worst posts ever.

Do you people... read stuff before posting?

Well, thanks to the OP, with the carefully chosen topic title. He chose to highlight an opinion of a person with no technical background, rather than the actual news she heard, like the fact that the chip is a modern and custom chip. For instance. That might not get as many clicks, i imagine.

 

[Captain Smoker]

The most funny part about this discussion:

- XBO = underpowered shit
- PS4 = I'm ok with it


The most important part about NX is that it's easy to port to, the visuals for multi-platform games should only be a topic to people who like to debate about the amount of trees in a scene or whatever there is to debate about:

Even PS4K and XBONE1.5 have the problem that they can't ignore 60.000.000 PS4ONE-Users.

 

[Majukun]

wasn't she wrong last time?why exactly do we give her credit,what did she got right?