James Scott
Banned
The console will also be able to play PS4/X1 multiplatform games and other exclusives.
I don't think it'll be much of an issue.
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SemiAccurate: Nintendo NX handheld to use Nvidia Tegra-based Soc
- Thread starter Fourth Storm
- Start date
I don't think it'll be much of an issue.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I agree that if you are a Nintendo only console kind of guy or gal, you will now get more software. I'm just not sure it makes the console more enticing to the point it will lead to more sales. I feel like the people who it entices are likely to just get the handheld.
In the scenario I am referring to, the handheld would play those same PS4/X1 multiplatform games. The console would have the weakest version of the multiplats (of the consoles). The NX handheld at least has the hook that you can play them on the go, but as Vita sales show, I'm not sure there are a whole lot of people who that appeals to.
It could just be a handheld with a console hybrid that does something like remote play. Take the Vita for example, it's a handheld. But when you are home you can stream games from a PS4 to it like the WiiU tablet's off TV play, and finally also use it as a controller to play games on your TV with the console.
Just have all of the games work on the handheld and console. It would do what people who don't know anything about the WiiU think it does. And that's play games on the tablet on the go without the console.
And yes, I do realize that the Vita does allow remote play over the Internet. But I don't see Nintendo doing that.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
In what way?
Eolz
Member
For the first point, while it may be true for the west, getting more handheld games would be really big for japan. Could truly change the market there.
The second point is more interesting for the west, but would be more work for the devs, and as the vita has shown, having lower versions of a console game isn't necessarily a good idea as well...
Yeah but the game would already be developed, all they'd need to do is pretty it up a tad, maybe add some dumb dlc, it'd still be cheap
James Scott
Banned
I doubt the handheld will run those multiplats. At most something stylized and simple like DQXI
I wouldn't be so sure. Or at least, it would depend on the game. If this Tegra rumor is true, and it would be the most powerefficient chip they have (which is also the best performer), the X1, than even after downclocking it to get decent battery life, we're still looking at noticeably greater than WiiU performance if i read that correctly.
Yes it is true, and having at 540p and api compatibility with engines, wouldn't it be possible to run something from Xbox one or ps4 but lower res?
RenegadeXV8
Banned
X1 might do well for Nintendo developed games specifically tailored for the hardware, but everything else... you just have to look at the current port situation for the Shield TV. The only games that actually run at 1080p/60 are 10+ year old games. Everything else? Metal Gear Rising is 720p and isn't anywhere near as smooth as the PS3/360 versions. Talos Principle is 720p/30 with a mix of Low/Medium settings. Borderlands Pre-Sequel is 720p and barely keeps 30FPS in most situations. Crysis 3 was outright cancelled.
Yes but it is also running on a bloated android os ☺️
Thank you for the clarification. Sorry about that, I'm not sure how I was misreading it originally--but I see now what you meant (and you did use it correctly, BTW). And I agree with you on both counts.
define bloat please. Or I am calling buzz word bingo bullshit.
James Scott
Banned
It might be more doable if they can get the game running on the console and then start the downgrade process, but I'm not sure devs/publishers will want to do that. Would be cool, but I haven't humored the idea much.
Where on earth did you get this?
Well based on what I have worked on different embedded devices reference platforms (eg. In vehicle entertainment systems), overtime there are problems with Android os especially with resource management.
Schnozberry
Member
A72 is the successor to A57. If they were going for lower power in the handheld, they would use A53 cores.
Schnozberry
Member
PowerVR is generally better for power consumption, but that could change with a Pascal based Tegra design at 16nm.
Schnozberry
Member
I think for NX you'd have to start with two render targets in mind from the beginning if you were going to release on both handheld and console. I think the idea that Thraktor posed earlier, which makes a lot more sense now that we aren't limiting the discussion to AMD, is that they would have a handheld more powerful than expected and a console that is a multiple of that configuration for predictable performance. For insance, they might be targeting a handheld that is close to TX1 in performance (512 GFLOPS) and a console that is either double (1TFLOP) or triple (1.5TFLOP) it's performance using an SOC from the same family that isn't limited to a few watts.
Those numbers are totally from my ass, but they aren't outside the realm of possibility with Pascal bringing significantly better performance per watt and higher clocks to the table.
tiredheadcrab
Member
I'd be cool with Nintendo using a tegra for their next chip. If they can get a Tegra chip that can play the current X1 and PS4 multiplats then I am sure it be fine.
Also someone on Reddit posted this and not sure if it was posted here. So its a rumor i could believe. If this profile is real.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ssudharsanan
Also someone on Reddit posted this and not sure if it was posted here. So its a rumor i could believe. If this profile is real.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ssudharsanan
Naked Prime
Member
This, while confirming nothing, actually is more interesting post Semi Accurate's article. Even more since it was posted 3 days earlier.
http://vrworld.com/2016/05/09/nvidia-credits-amd-unifying-game-development/
http://vrworld.com/2016/05/09/nvidia-credits-amd-unifying-game-development/
Android is built from the ground up with mobile in mind not embedded. Asking it to serve a function it wasn't built for and observing behavior you wouldn't observe on a Linux system purpose built, despite maybe using similar kernel and user space software is a bit unfair.
Android has a fantastic presence in the space it serves and the true bloat ware comes from OEMs trying to add its flavor of UI or rebate friendly bundled apps. Who is to say the hardware is the core reason why games still lack performance at AAA on these devices? I would rather blame known quantities like the actual power of the GPUs and lack of memory bandwidth and pedestrian computing prowess as the reasons some games don't perform well on ARM yet. There is always the economics of wattage for entertainment oriented SoCs. No one ever blames things like cache misses on ARM despite it not having l3 cache and low memory bandwidth a lot of the times. It is a Wild West and Android has to play ball with many configurations.
You never know when Linux gets an update where true performance gains come from. It could be a new driver, it could be a bug fix. It could be just well refactored code. And it could be a custom driver from the OEM.
NeOak
Member
lol wat
So you are trying to say stock Android does not have performance issues over time?
Ayyy lmao.
Also, newflash: phones are embedded devices with an integrated modem. Same as with tablets, they are embedded devices that can have communication. So your distinction does not make sense.
Schnozberry
Member
Memory bandwidth is less of a problem with LPDDR4, especially with a 128 or 256 bit bus. The Jaguar architecture in the PS4 and Xbox One doesn't have L3 cache either. The performance of ARM as an architecture is not going to be the hurdle that prevents Nintendo from succeeding. If anything, it will only pay off into the future as ARM continues to improve at a much greater rate than x86 and Nintendo can pair whatever GPU they want with it as Vulkan will run on all of them.
Yes it is true, but this is the customer demand. They need an app eco system which serves well to their needs. Phones or in vehicle entertainment systems or in flight entertainment systems are part of the embedded systems. Probably android for specific purpose need to be optimized for getting better results..
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
It wouldn't be, but it's pointless for a handheld if the games run at native resolution. Vita's issue for example, was that so many of them didn't, but when they did? Boy, was the IQ incredible. 540p is enough.
Memorabilia
Member
So, a Shield that plays Mario and has a dock to allow it to play uprezzed on a 1080p TV?
That would be a really good news for the handheld and for me unless a big part of its power is wasted in things like second screen, 3d, a too high resolution and whatever nintendo is going to add(i want it to be as close as possible to a "normal" handheld)
Also true from a battery life, performance per pixel and cost perspective.
I think a "Handheld NX" at 540p at launch, and then a "Handheld NX XL" at 720p whenever the silicon catches up so they can do that at a market friendly price makes a lot of sense.
They could also use a similar strategy for 3D revisions.
Boy Wander
Member
That's REALLY what your takeaway from this thread is?
Memorabilia
Member
Do you honestly think I've read the entire thread? I'm genuinely curious what we're potentially looking at here. You could try responding without being a smart-ass.
KojiKnight
Member
You could have maybe read the first page though...
Boy Wander
Member
Yeah sorry. But tbh, there is a lot of info early on in the thread.
Letting games from a different ecosystem run on their hardware by means of a third party service not under their control really doesn't sound like something Nintendo would do to me.
Risk Breaker
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if it's a K1 really. This is Nintendo we're talking about, take a moment to look at the 3DS and marvel at its specs compared to the Vita.
LordRaptor
Member
Agreed, and if they were going to do so, it would not be via nVidia services, but via DeNas services, who Nintendo have an existing business arrangement and shares in
michaelius
Banned
I spent some time thinking about it and imho this makes perfect sense.
Nintendo needs to have architecture that can work in both handheld and stationary form.
x86 is good in high power forms but amd cannot provide any good option at 2-3W
If you don't go with x86 then ARM is obvious choice
- it works for handheld form factor
- best ARM CPU cores should be capable to get close enough to performance of pathetic jaguar cores in PS4/Xone in stationary console
Why Nvidia?
- because they can provide power efficient dekstop class gpus together with arm cores
- there are rumors about Nintendo using Vulkan for NX and Nvidia is best about openGL stuff traditionally (or rather is the only company which takes it seriously)
- last but not least - I'd expect that Nvidia was extremely flexible on the price due to Tegra not selling well outside of automotive market and they are probably not happy with Microsoft push for UWP
Nintendo needs to have architecture that can work in both handheld and stationary form.
x86 is good in high power forms but amd cannot provide any good option at 2-3W
If you don't go with x86 then ARM is obvious choice
- it works for handheld form factor
- best ARM CPU cores should be capable to get close enough to performance of pathetic jaguar cores in PS4/Xone in stationary console
Why Nvidia?
- because they can provide power efficient dekstop class gpus together with arm cores
- there are rumors about Nintendo using Vulkan for NX and Nvidia is best about openGL stuff traditionally (or rather is the only company which takes it seriously)
- last but not least - I'd expect that Nvidia was extremely flexible on the price due to Tegra not selling well outside of automotive market and they are probably not happy with Microsoft push for UWP
Two sources have claimed the chips to be modern (industry leading (WSJ), modern custom (Emily Rogers)) and the X1 is twice as power efficient as the K1, which is a big deal to Nintendo.
Risk Breaker
Member
Yeah, well, I'd love it to be an awesome brand new, cutting edge chip, but the 3DS soured me so much and we've gone through this so many times with Nintendo... It's going to be a sad, sad handheld gen if they pull another 3DS, ugh.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
If Nintendo goes with Tegra, they will go with the most efficient chip and architecture in terms of power consumption. The K1 does not fit that.
Well.. as for mobile side of things, if devs of bunch of emulators to be believed, it's the only choice apart from AMD is you want your thing to perform well.
Their drivers are just as good on mobile as on desktop and while the likes of Qualcomm can make really good hardware, they cant into drivers.
Fairly old dolphin dev blog about this : https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2013/0...-and-opengl-drivers-hall-fameshame/?nocr=true
Recent posts about SGS7 perf : https://forums.dolphin-emu.org/Thre...n-performance-discussion?pid=399117#pid399117
And Vulkan support : http://i.imgur.com/EvidlcM.jpg
And a fun post from mid 2015 : http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/qu...d-the-current-sad-state-of-mobile-gpu-drivers
Overall all I can garner from it all is the fact that if you want your mobile thing to perform and do the same games as big consoles/PC you only have one choice on mobile - NVidia. Or some semi custom AMD job or something. Or well... write your own drivers.
Their drivers are just as good on mobile as on desktop and while the likes of Qualcomm can make really good hardware, they cant into drivers.
Fairly old dolphin dev blog about this : https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2013/0...-and-opengl-drivers-hall-fameshame/?nocr=true
Recent posts about SGS7 perf : https://forums.dolphin-emu.org/Thre...n-performance-discussion?pid=399117#pid399117
And Vulkan support : http://i.imgur.com/EvidlcM.jpg
And a fun post from mid 2015 : http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/qu...d-the-current-sad-state-of-mobile-gpu-drivers
Overall all I can garner from it all is the fact that if you want your mobile thing to perform and do the same games as big consoles/PC you only have one choice on mobile - NVidia. Or some semi custom AMD job or something. Or well... write your own drivers.
Candescence
Member
Well, honestly, the 3DS just seemed weak because the Vita was a thing. The 3DS was basically staying within Nintendo's usual trend for their handheld generations, Sony leapfrogged them with both PSPs. Not that it worked out for them, as the PSP, while it did very respectable numbers, couldn't compete with the DS juggernaut, and the Vita was a massive car crash in terms of sales while the 3DS, while it is a big drop from the DS, still sold pretty damn well. It's really only the Wii and Wii U that cut down on console power. If anything, in the handheld space, it's the PSP and Vita that essentially did the opposite, the main problem being that they sacrificed affordability to do so.
By Nintendo's usual trend, I do expect the NX handheld to be at least previous-gen console power, probably the handheld equivalent of the Wii U at least.
I've been thinking about the if and how it could be possible to get a 3rd party partnership with... say something like Steam, on the NX. I know there have been rumors about EA wanting their shop on the WiiU, which Nintendo declined, which led EA to cancel WiiU support, supposedly. But what technical hurdles (apart from the non-technical hurdles such as licensing and fees) would need to be overcome? Would every game have to be "recompiled" or "ported" in order to be able to run on NX? Or do the games run on the Steam platform. If games run on Steam as a platform, would it be possible to make Steam (as app) run on NX and hence, the entire steam library?
GhostTrick
Banned
Games run on Windows. Steam as a platform is a storefront with integrated community stuff. It's a glorified web browser. Steam as an app on NX wouldnt allow Windows games to run on NX.
Although, they could have Steam working on NX if NX was based on Linux. Then the Linux games on Steam would be compatible.
Possumowner
Member
I'd absolutely love a Nintendo handheld more powerful than the Vita,are these rumours suggesting that??Or am I just blowing bubbles