Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
Nadine is pretty insane as well. I play as her in mp and she talks about how what a good day for target practice it is. I'd shoot back also.
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Neil Druckmann interview about the making of Uncharted 4
- Thread starter zsynqx
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Nadine is pretty insane as well. I play as her in mp and she talks about how what a good day for target practice it is. I'd shoot back also.
Keihart
Member
This game really does need a "Director's cut"
gamerMan
Member
Even though Uncharted 4 had its problems, I have to say the man is completely brilliant and that Naughty Dog is the best developer in the industry right now. I love the way he takes criticism and some of the criticism has been very vocal and at times hurtful.
But you know that you are you are at the top of your game when people are critical of your work. Go ask Stephen Curry. You know when people talk sh*t about your work or downplay your significance, you are doing some right. Sometimes it's because of jealously and they secretly wish they could be you or have what you have. People will be talking sh*t about Uncharted 4 forever, but I don't think they will even remember Tony Hawk or SuperMan. People do it with the Zelda games, Mario Games, Grand Theft Auto Games, and Naughty Dog games.
We will constantly see people trying to magnify the flaws of Uncharted 4 with things like "it's the best photo game ever" or it's a "walking simulator." Every time Neil sees these threads, he should know it's only because the game is so damn good that someone decided to go and nitpick it's flaws.
We can talk about the pacing and the crates but it's only because these elements stick out in a masterful piece of art. While flawed, it reminds you that this game was created by people absolutely love what they do. Uncharted 4 is a lot of things, but most of all it's a piece of art.
Lol! From Neil's response, I don't think we will see crates in Naughty Dog's next game. They do need to find better ways to work with the AI as it helps build a relationship with the other characters. I think this is why we care so much about Naughty Dog's characters. Who knew, it's because of the crates.
So no problem at killing people because they kill too ? this is a lame excuse to me.
But well, in the context of a lot of games it's not like the ai has another way to deal with this, like running away from you if you kill too much of its comrades in its opinion.
Lys Skygge
Member
Totally agreed. This was the first Uncharted where I was excited to get into a shootout, but by the time a shootout finished, I'd be ready to take it easy again.
I thought the pacing was perfect
I really like Druckmann interviews, he's really well spoken and usually knows the nuances of what he's talking about.
I think I'm firmly in the camp of those that would have liked to have a few more gunfights throughout the game, but on my second playthrough I can appreciate what they were going for with the story.
I'd have liked him to talk more about the treasure hunt story of this game. I think that's one area where Uncharted 4 is heads and tails above the others in the series and following Avery as a character is done so well.
I think I'm firmly in the camp of those that would have liked to have a few more gunfights throughout the game, but on my second playthrough I can appreciate what they were going for with the story.
I'd have liked him to talk more about the treasure hunt story of this game. I think that's one area where Uncharted 4 is heads and tails above the others in the series and following Avery as a character is done so well.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Great interview. Fun to see a developer that doesn't just wave away Neogaf criticism with "overly negative"
Which yes we do have some, but some criticism is valid even if it depends on the point of view.
Which yes we do have some, but some criticism is valid even if it depends on the point of view.
Salz01
Member
Sad to hear about the cut crane set piece, and sword fight of chapter 16. They delayed the game enough so they should have kept it. Cutting out action pieces in a game that is 60% percent walking/ climbing kind of stinks. I liked the platforming but the game needed some more action. Maybe a chase scene through the jungle while you are platforming / climbing could have worked too. Sort of what they did in 3.
Liked the game overall, but felt the pacing was indeed off. Loved going through the levels because it's such a visual treat, just wish there were more encounters and not just climbing all the time. They listened too much about the murder simulator criticism.
Hope the dlc is more action packed, and a tighter focus. I'm good with the story while there is action going on at the same time. Hope it's not like Tlou dlc where it's just walking around putting on masks or having a water gun fight. I feel they should close Nadine out somehow in the dlc. I kept thinking it would get back to her post credits or something.
Loved the game overall, just felt it was trying too hard to be like tlou at times, and not enough pulpy action flick.
Still excited to see what they do next.
Liked the game overall, but felt the pacing was indeed off. Loved going through the levels because it's such a visual treat, just wish there were more encounters and not just climbing all the time. They listened too much about the murder simulator criticism.
Hope the dlc is more action packed, and a tighter focus. I'm good with the story while there is action going on at the same time. Hope it's not like Tlou dlc where it's just walking around putting on masks or having a water gun fight. I feel they should close Nadine out somehow in the dlc. I kept thinking it would get back to her post credits or something.
Loved the game overall, just felt it was trying too hard to be like tlou at times, and not enough pulpy action flick.
Still excited to see what they do next.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Great interview. If you're reading this druckmann, ND killed it. Near perfect game IMO.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Exactly. Pretty cool of him.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
So ludonarrative dissonance is why we got a climbing sim? Thanks internet.
GravityInsanity
Member
This is the second time I hear him dismissing criticism as basically "I'm not making games for them" or "it's fine if we lose some of those people". It's disappointing to read. I'm a big fan of all 4 uncharted games and TLOU and story based games in general (I rarely even buy open world games), but I thought the intro was a bit slow, that's with reading about it being slow and preparing myself.
Still, overall a great game (I enjoyed uncharted 2 and TLOU more though) so congrats to Naughty Dog and I can't wait for their next game.
Still, overall a great game (I enjoyed uncharted 2 and TLOU more though) so congrats to Naughty Dog and I can't wait for their next game.
I killed over 500 people in my my first playthru.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Platforming > shooting sections.
I audibly groan whenever I enter a wide open area knowing I'm gonna have to shoot a bunch of assholes
This kind of makes my head hurt. People aren't "jealous" or trying to "downplay significance" when they point out where Uncharted 4 is poorly paced or mechanically lacking. They're pointing it out because they know the game can be better, and they want ND to continue pushing themselves to make better games. Creators benefit from well-meaning constructive criticism.
To be clear: UC4 is an extremely polished game; it's incredibly gorgeous (the best-looking game I've ever seen); and the storytelling and characterization is top-notch (some plot holes and weak motivations aside). But when it comes to the actual gameplay, it's pretty easy to spot the seams — the demarcation between meaningful player involvement (i.e. controlling the tempo of battle, swinging around the map, ambushing enemies, etc), and the ho-hum tedium of everything else: interacting with highlighted items, moving crates, or executing fairly automated jumping/climbing in super-linear environments.
I appreciate the move away from the over-abundance of combat, but as others have noted, ND still hasn't found an engaging way to spend downtime in these games. Replaying some of these levels will be a bit of a slog once the story is known and the intrigue/sense of discovery is no longer driving us onward. Scotland already felt long in the tooth, and that was the first time through when the witty banter, plot twists, and breathtaking vistas were all new. Imagine how that'll hold up when those superficial qualities are old hat and you're just left with gameplay that half of the time is barely there.
For my tastes, from an actual gameplay standpoint, ND doesn't come close to touching developers like From Software, Platinum or Nintendo — three devs who, at their very best, have a much more rigorous focus on engaging mechanics. There's definitely room for ND to grow in that respect. ND is untouchable when it comes to making cinematic experiences that rival Hollywood productions, but there's still so much more they can do in terms of rich and nuanced gameplay.
All that being said, I'm confident they'll get there. They're incredibly talented folks, and I admire their vision and heart. I just want to see them get better and better.
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
Neil, I bought UC4 for you bb
I actually did, was going to wait because UC 1-3 were fun but not earthshaking for me--then I realized that I wanted to see what Druckmann and Straley have been up to since TLOU. I feel like those guys have earned my interest.
I also agree that the Feminist Frequency critique was a little off-base. I say this as an enthusiastic supporter of FF--they just missed the mark. Elena was not an obstacle--she was a supportive life partner that missed the old life, too--Drake lied to her unnecessarily. He failed to trust her--that was his mistake. It wasn't fair to her--I thought this was pretty clear.
Thanks for the link, TC
I actually did, was going to wait because UC 1-3 were fun but not earthshaking for me--then I realized that I wanted to see what Druckmann and Straley have been up to since TLOU. I feel like those guys have earned my interest.
I also agree that the Feminist Frequency critique was a little off-base. I say this as an enthusiastic supporter of FF--they just missed the mark. Elena was not an obstacle--she was a supportive life partner that missed the old life, too--Drake lied to her unnecessarily. He failed to trust her--that was his mistake. It wasn't fair to her--I thought this was pretty clear.
Thanks for the link, TC
I agree. He writes off these complaints as if only trigger happy players make them, which is definitely not true if you read the more critical posts in the OT. The pacing issues are present throughout the course of the game. For instance the traversal parts are ok in small doses (like in the early games), but here the segments are longer and far more frequent. Like you said, dropping the focus on encounters is okay, but have something engaging instead of it then.
Oh and they really should've included that extra bit in ch16. They had so much stuff they could cut out, and they pick that. Very weird. It would've made
the final fight seem so much smarter
Yep, U4 definitely isn't a replay-friendly game. When I finished the other games, I immediately started a Crushing run. Not so much in U4. I did treasure cleanup with chapter select, and that was it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That doesn't explain his motives at all. It's a bunch of baseless speculation. Rafe is supposed to be the literal opposite of Drake. He started out rich, had everything handed to him "on a goddamn silver platter." Compared to Nate, an orphan, who did all this cool shit over the course of 12 years while he was STILL searching for Avery's treasure. And ofc he's the rated T for teen version of psychos tropes we've seen a million times in media which includes the hair getting unkempt at his lowest point moment and sweeping things off a desk when he's mad. Personally I don't find him very intimidating at all. That bit about his parents leaving him to rot in jail makes no sense considering he straight up bribed the prison warden to let him, Nate, and Sam into the jail with an escape route. I mean, right before the fight in the laundry room Rafe says let's get out of here so he very clearly could've left whenever he wanted.
I agree.
Yeah, it's not about being trigger-happy. I actually -like- the reduced focus on combat... in theory. But if you're going to have me do other things, make sure they're interesting.
It feels like there are times where for 10-20 minutes straight you're panning the camera to spot handholds, walking up to an edge, pressing forward and X to automatically jump and grab handholds, and then repeating the process.
Ideally he wouldn't dismiss that concern, but whatevs. I still love ya, Neil!
It feels like there are times where for 10-20 minutes straight you're panning the camera to spot handholds, walking up to an edge, pressing forward and X to automatically jump and grab handholds, and then repeating the process.
Ideally he wouldn't dismiss that concern, but whatevs. I still love ya, Neil!
WeAreStarStuff
Member
Game was great, but was held back from being perfect due to its flawed pacing. I don't like how Neil just dismissed this, and is "OK with losing some of us." I mean I platinumed all three previous Uncharted, but it's like OK; who cares what I think.
Obliterator
Member
Yeah GAF may be just a segment of the market and not always representative of the overall demo but if you are a dev who just ignores the forum in general I think its pretty much not a good call. There are thousands of active posters on this site who in general have a much higher standard of posting than most forums. Don't get me wrong there is some crap that will show up, just like anywhere else on earth, but the discussion in general here can be very resourceful.
And not just for things like opinions but also sales data
Edit - I do agree though that the game should have had a bit more action to it. I do really appreciate the downtime moments but I feel like the pacing in the first half isn't as strong as in the second half. Even if they didn't add in a ton more gunfights but had some other type of action heavy set piece it would be better. My only complaint is I think they may have went a little bit too much into the "slow" area in parts of the game.
I don't think he waved it off, he made a conscious choice to make many parts of the game slower and less shooty. In general, this meant that there were less shooty bits to intersperse which is why the pacing changed.
Personally I enjoyed the change. Its just slower which I dont think is bad, just opinion-based.
I like the amount of "slow moments." I just wish they were more fun to play.
For example: Rather than restricting our climbing to one pathway in many cases, why not allow players to forge their own path, climbing in a number of ways, at their own pace, so that skillful or daring players could push themselves and nimbly speed-run those sections by cutting corners and skirting death? Same for the platforming: Rather than making it so "one jump suits all," why not allow us to jump in a variety of ways of our choosing, and land in a variety of ways of our choosing? It doesn't have to be challenging; I just want to feel involved beyond "push forward, tap X."
If they want us to hear certain dialogue or see a scripted explosion, they could just funnel the player into bottlenecks at certain points, forcing us to see/hear whatever, and then let us go back to playing our way.
Increased agency would make the downtime a lot less suffocating and restrictive, and a lot more engaging and fun.
For example: Rather than restricting our climbing to one pathway in many cases, why not allow players to forge their own path, climbing in a number of ways, at their own pace, so that skillful or daring players could push themselves and nimbly speed-run those sections by cutting corners and skirting death? Same for the platforming: Rather than making it so "one jump suits all," why not allow us to jump in a variety of ways of our choosing, and land in a variety of ways of our choosing? It doesn't have to be challenging; I just want to feel involved beyond "push forward, tap X."
If they want us to hear certain dialogue or see a scripted explosion, they could just funnel the player into bottlenecks at certain points, forcing us to see/hear whatever, and then let us go back to playing our way.
Increased agency would make the downtime a lot less suffocating and restrictive, and a lot more engaging and fun.
Its worth noting that this is the most open uncharted to date. It certainly has a lot further to go, and you can feel that ND is very comfortable with linear climbing, but they at least made an effort to get out of the super-linear form.
the_sun_king
Member
The Feminist Frequency really had that criticism? Talk about missing the point. It was plainly obvious that (as Neil intended) the only thing holding Nate back was Nate himself.
In fact, my favourite bit of the game is when Elena rescues Nate and joins him on the adventure in the last few chapters.
It's definitely appreciated. Stuff like the jeep in Madagascar is really refreshing. But there's so much more they could do in terms of skill-driven traversal and semi-open exploration. Hopefully they continue to think about these things. I know they can do it.
at least you are being led by Yellow anymore. Progress.
Ha, I noticed that. If you lived in UC2's Nepal and happened to make yellow paint for a living, you'd be a rich man indeed!
MegaSackman
Member
This is what I have to say:
From: is amazing, fantastic gameplay, and insane amazing lore, however this is not my prefered form of storytelling but I welcome it for what it is.
Nintendo: Great gameplay and level design, I really don't care about their games, don't like them, so I don't play them.
Platinum: Great mechanics, terrible everything else, just terrible, don't play their games.
So I don't go to demands this devs to change in favor of my tastes, I understand that they have motivations that I'm not and many people like that, more power to them. I just stay away and play some ocassional game that may have some aspect that interest me.
Naughty Dog is not about "engaging mechanics" stop demanding that (or not, do whatever you care), you're missing the point of their games. Just walking around is not "just walking around" some of us really love being with different characters in a place and listen to their conversations, seeing if we can find some secret conversations between them, we love the animations, the acting and you know what? I can replay those things many times just as I can watch a movie more than once with the difference that I'm a part of this while I'm not in movies.
Chapter 4 and 16 are some fantastic gameplay design in my opinion, some people think it's slow and not worthy of a replay, well, pitty it didn't click to them, It happened to me with Metal Gear Rising. That's life.
NullPointer
Member
Sounds like Uncharted as a series just makes you groan most of the time, as that combat makes up the bulk of the previous games.
In the article the quiet of the Nepal scene is brought up, and that scene was an amazing reprieve from the crazy action before it, but it also led in to one of the longest and most intense rolling firefights in the series.
I get that people enjoy the quiet moments and character moments, I do as well, but Uncharted has always been a majority of combat, with puzzling and traversal for a change of pace. UC4 is a full on inversion of that formula, with walking and climbing making up the majority of the game time, followed far behind by some combat encounters, and puzzles being the smallest component.
Variation on a theme is fine, great even, but is this game the Uncharted for those who never particularly liked how Uncharted games play?
Reminds me of the Tomb Raider reboot. It seemed to be enjoyed the most by those who didn't like Tomb Raider's focus on puzzles and riskier traversal. (Edit: Then again, I've never enjoyed the combat in previous Tomb Raider games, so I guess I can appreciate the groan up there.)
GravityInsanity
Member
Alright......who was it...........I loved the game through and through, who can't handle a game without pew pew. The extra and sometime long down times were the best part of the game. Sorry it has to be explosions in your face 24/7. All the games have had downtime moments to enjoy and take in the setting/scenery.
edit: Ah people are complaining about the pacing and placement of some sections. To each there own, I loved it and place UC4 as my favorite Uncharted game of them all. I loved the rope mechanics the extra platforming and extra downtime.
Salz01
Member
I agree with this post.
NullPointer
Member
Its not just about shooting or violence, but the combat is where the games offer up the most player agency, and require the most involvement and decision making on the part of the player. Those parts are engaging on a mechanical level.
UC4 actually offers more mechanics to play with than the previous games (stealth, swinging, marking targets), and in many ways they're more refined, and yet there are fewer opportunities to really play with them for long.
I just edited, probably didn't answer anything you stated but, I now see why. People love being engaged and those downtimes were really you walking a path to enjoy a set scene instead of coming about it yourself. I'm starting to see why if there's no action people love open sections to discover pieces on their own instead of being forced into it. Sure you moved the analog stick but that's as involved as you got. While gunplay, aiming and triggers are failures based on your decisions and not the Dev's.
I also agree the stealth in the game is the best and most refined to date.....it also works finally. Makes encounters really player choice for almost all encounters.
I actually don't mind the ladders/crates.. the one mechanic I really hate is whenever you get to an opening that has rubble/debris caved in/blocking it so you need to slowly lift the debris while your partner goes under. I don't know why I dislike those segments so much, they just seem so slow and pointless.
I guess maybe UC4 is more my game than others but I really enjoyed the opening chapters, I'm replaying it on Crushing now and I see no major issues with the opening 8 or so chapters. I will say placing the boat chase at the beginning really did feel off on the second playthrough as its a bit more confusing in terms of context than it is just out right exciting and cool. Like others I think I would have preferred it being during the actual island section of the game.
Then again I don't mind just walking around doing "stuff" that isn't shooting people. I do agree it could have certainly been deeper and had more interesting puzzles than pushing wheeled crates around but I didn't mind it overall.
I actually wish there were a few more battles overall because even on Crushing I'm blowing through them even when I'm not attempting stealth. I'm glad though because I remember with dread some of the arena sections in past games where you are faced with a guy who has explosives, a huge gun, and absorbs more ammo than a fortified bunker. This comes off as the easiest UC to date with all the tools your given.
Also one complaint I did have was that we got the addition of the rope but I kind of wished they added in a couple other items we could have used. I know we get the pick but its only used later on the game and basically just increases how many hand holds you get while climbing in certain sections. I would have loved like a climbing axe or things of that nature slowly worked into Nate's arsenal, even give them other uses like a the climbing axe as a weapon similar to TR.
Then again I don't mind just walking around doing "stuff" that isn't shooting people. I do agree it could have certainly been deeper and had more interesting puzzles than pushing wheeled crates around but I didn't mind it overall.
I actually wish there were a few more battles overall because even on Crushing I'm blowing through them even when I'm not attempting stealth. I'm glad though because I remember with dread some of the arena sections in past games where you are faced with a guy who has explosives, a huge gun, and absorbs more ammo than a fortified bunker. This comes off as the easiest UC to date with all the tools your given.
Also one complaint I did have was that we got the addition of the rope but I kind of wished they added in a couple other items we could have used. I know we get the pick but its only used later on the game and basically just increases how many hand holds you get while climbing in certain sections. I would have loved like a climbing axe or things of that nature slowly worked into Nate's arsenal, even give them other uses like a the climbing axe as a weapon similar to TR.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
If this was true then the game would have zero action sections whatsoever and they most certainly wouldn't have spent so much budget on improving the mechanics of the game. No game designer ever would legitimately agree with the notion that they're not about making the mechanics of their game engaging unless the sole point was a deconstruction of a genre ala Spec Ops the Line.
The majority of chapters have at most two optional conversations. Which aren't even secret because a giant text bubble appears on screen to indicate "conversation here."
All well and good, but remember we're supposed to be playing, not just watching or watching with minimal player agency, UC is not that type of game.
If chapter 4 and 16 were the only slow and restrictive moments of the game then there wouldn't be a contingent of players complaining about the pacing of the game. It's not the fact that there are slow moments, it's the fact that they're not very engaging especially on repeat runthroughs of the game whereas something like UC2 is a masterclass in game pacing.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
it's just a way to mask the game loading. It's an interactive loading screen!
I suspect they're masking loading times
CrichtonKicks
Member
I don't think the cut crane set piece would have made a difference:
1) There is already a large action scene in the same place now. So it's not an additional action sequence, it's just making an existing sequence bigger.
2) It's pretty close to the biggest set piece in the game (E3 Demo level) so you would end up with the 2 big setpieces almost back to back right at the halfway mark of the game.
To really make an impact on the concerns that some have with pacing the set piece would probably need to be somewhere in the stretch from 13-16.
There are two full platforming chapters separating the village exploration (Chapter 16) and village attack (Chapter 19). So while it's cool that the village is used for both, "Where Am I?" isn't really a lead-in to an intense action sequence. Unless you are including Chapters 17 & 18 in that lull as well.
NullPointer
Member
That and unloading the previous area from memory since there's no way back.
For the record I really loved the beginning too. The slow build from the banality of home life was perfect. The character moments, the beautiful visuals, the tokens from previous games. The
prison escape was incredible - bullets sparking in low light conditions. Just damn well done. The heist, go damn.
the the "playable" Nadine fight. Playable sequences where you're limited in controls and are forced to lose just feels a broken gaming promise. Just feels wrong.
I was kindof smooshing it all together there but yeah, for the most part I'd lump them together, at least to start. The exploration of the caves was nice, quiet and let you take in the scenery. You got this nice build up from walking through Nepal, and then doing the climbing and rope swinging, then a Sasquatch encounter, then some more exploration, a ginormous puzzle mechanism, and then a combat arena leading up a full scale invasion with area after area of full on warfare in the village, and even that builds up to a tank segment. Just amazing stuff.
You're kindof exhausted after completing these segments, so you can really appreciate returning to some peace and quiet before starting another buildup.
I really like this kind of interviews. I hope Neil Druckmann (and/or Bruce Straley) ends up doing a keynote similar to the one he did about The Last of Us at IGDA.
It was great hearing how the story and characters had evolved through the years, and all in all a really interesting lecture on game development and writing.
It was great hearing how the story and characters had evolved through the years, and all in all a really interesting lecture on game development and writing.
(and I'll keep waiting for that one day when they finally use the fishing scene he mentions when showing the Jak & Daxter pics during the keynote)
MegaSackman
Member
I'm pretty sure there's a lot more people happy with those chapters and gameplay. I find Left Behind even more revolutionary than the original game and I put Chapter 4 right next to it.
I disagree with your engaging statement, I play some games with completely different objectives.
BalishChannel
Banned
That's an understatement.