dead monkey uk
Member
The original leak said Sony had two CPU options for the Neo and the dev kits were the lower spec. I guess time will tell if they are able (want) to go for the more expensive (powerful) option.
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Digital Foundry: Spec Analysis: Xbox Project Scorpio
- Thread starter Theorry
- Start date
The original leak said Sony had two CPU options for the Neo and the dev kits were the lower spec. I guess time will tell if they are able (want) to go for the more expensive (powerful) option.
geordiemp
Member
You dont think they would not make more than 1 option ?
Rumour was 2 options, lets hope they go the better option on the CPU. Its all about the CPU for frame rates.
GPU is not important, 4 5 or 6 TF does not matter a shit if game is CPU gimped and cant to 60 FPS.
MS have an advantage here, they can wait for ZEN. Jaguar would be shit on both consoles imo.
DOWN
Banned
Neo is rumored 2016. That means they could also do a holiday 2017 refresh. Read my post again
R_thanatos
Member
Statements .. those have more power than words
But those speculations are only true in the best case scenario for scorpio , who knows if they can produce a product at the apporpriate price for that power when the times comes.
$100 more for a CPU upgrade, that sounds crazy. Had to be more than just CPU getting bumped with that.
family_guy
Member
"$599 US dollars. Too much for you? We have a product for people at the poverty level; it's called Xbox One S."
ethomaz
Banned
People are getting out of themselves with Neo bump specs for what?
If Sony did increase Neo power MS will have 1.5 years to make something even better.
Sony wants to release Neo before October and Scorpio will be more powerful than anything Sony can show releasing in holidays 2017.
BTW this holiday 2017 release is a way bigger mistake than power difference.
If Sony did increase Neo power MS will have 1.5 years to make something even better.
Sony wants to release Neo before October and Scorpio will be more powerful than anything Sony can show releasing in holidays 2017.
BTW this holiday 2017 release is a way bigger mistake than power difference.
Killer Queen
Banned
At that point they might aswel phase out neo 1 or the original ps4. Having 3 differently powered ps4s wouldn't be good for Sony.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Switching to the AMD x86/64 roadmap plans afforded both companies the ability to do this. It was one of the many reasons as to why the switch.
Insane Metal
Member
I approve of this technique. APDSCP.
BleedOrange
Banned
This. They said those exact words multiple times. The total computer power of the APU will be even larger.
What insider?
Edit:
Plan B means slightly better CPU. Not comparable with Scorpio in any way.
One way I could see an 8 core Zen implementation work out TDP wise is asymmetric clocking of the modules (Zen comes in modules of 4 cores, 512 kB L2 per core, 8 MB L3 per module).
An "app module" (for running Scorpio exclusives) could be clocked at 2.4 GHz or higher, while the other one, an "OS module" could churn along at 1.8 GHz with two cores always idling or uninitialized. A setup like this would facilitate both ease of development and decent performance gains by:
-freeing up memory interface resources (only one module heavily accesses the RAM, no communicating between the modules via RAM, bigger cache);
-it's easier to schedule jobs/threads across 4 cores with shared LLC than 6 without;
-higher clock, wider execution units, faster cache, etc.
Alternatively, booting up legacy software (or a cross generational game) would clock both modules evenly at 1.8 GHz and enable the two idle cores (on the OS module) which would allow XBone titles to run natively or with minimum modifications to the executable.
An "app module" (for running Scorpio exclusives) could be clocked at 2.4 GHz or higher, while the other one, an "OS module" could churn along at 1.8 GHz with two cores always idling or uninitialized. A setup like this would facilitate both ease of development and decent performance gains by:
-freeing up memory interface resources (only one module heavily accesses the RAM, no communicating between the modules via RAM, bigger cache);
-it's easier to schedule jobs/threads across 4 cores with shared LLC than 6 without;
-higher clock, wider execution units, faster cache, etc.
Alternatively, booting up legacy software (or a cross generational game) would clock both modules evenly at 1.8 GHz and enable the two idle cores (on the OS module) which would allow XBone titles to run natively or with minimum modifications to the executable.
Samurai G0SU
Member
IT would be funny that they release an update advising ther engineers were able to overclock something and made the machine faster . like they did the xbox one lol
I'd go crazy if they all of sudden said : "we were able to achiive 6.5 tflops thanks to our amazing engineers"
But i know that wont happen haha. Still an interesting take. It'll be in no time when devs start to get the dev kits for Scorpio and leaks start to happen. I AM EXCITE!
I'd go crazy if they all of sudden said : "we were able to achiive 6.5 tflops thanks to our amazing engineers"
But i know that wont happen haha. Still an interesting take. It'll be in no time when devs start to get the dev kits for Scorpio and leaks start to happen. I AM EXCITE!
LordBaztion
Member
this. MS should be moneyhating developers to make the best use of Scorpio.
I personally don't see any reason to get a Scorpio, especially with Microsoft's continued push into the PC space. If the specs hold true, many of us with Windows 10 gaming PCs essentially have Scorpios in hand already (albeit bigger, uglier ones).
That said, if the price is right and you have no interest in forking out the cash for a PC, this is going to be one hell of an upgrade over the Xbone/PS4.
That said, if the price is right and you have no interest in forking out the cash for a PC, this is going to be one hell of an upgrade over the Xbone/PS4.
So the Scorpio will feature a GPU almost on par with the upcoming 1070? That is tagged at 500$?
Plus 12 gig Ram and a current CPU, this thing will be pretty expensive, 500 to 700$. And to be honest. This is not a home console anymore, this is just a PC with a really bad OS and limited usage features....
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
To be fair, the GPU will comprise the vast majority of the total theoretical computing power.
Intel's Core i7 5960X (8 core monster) gets a whopping 384 GFLOPS, or around 6% of what Scorpio's GPU is supposedly rated at. Don't expect Scorpio's CPU to contribute to add much to the total.
Source: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/hpc/Linpack-performance-Haswell-E-Core-i7-5960X-and-5930K-594/
wesleyshark
Banned
I did. They won't release two iterations of the Neo in a year's time, whether the release date is this fall or early next year.
cheezcake
Member
Guys.
A top of the line i7-5930k is 0.15 TFLOPS, the CPU is negligible when talking about system power using this metric, hence it doesn't matter if 6 Tflops is including CPU or not.
It will be quite a bit weaker than the 1070, the AMD 480 is a much more accurate comparison (5.5 Tflops GCN 2.0, $200)
A top of the line i7-5930k is 0.15 TFLOPS, the CPU is negligible when talking about system power using this metric, hence it doesn't matter if 6 Tflops is including CPU or not.
It will be quite a bit weaker than the 1070, the AMD 480 is a much more accurate comparison (5.5 Tflops GCN 2.0, $200)
BleedOrange
Banned
What's also interesting here is that developers are telling MS and Sony that 8GB total system memory is not enough for 4k 30hz. With all the focus that both of these companies are putting on being focused on delivering developer wishes why would Sony still go with 8GB total RAM?
Are there even hints of the Neo coming in 2016? We just had the biggest trade show and they didn't announce it. Would be weird to announce new hardware and then launch a month later with very little warning. I don't see the Neo launching till next year.
If they wanted the Neo to hit this year.....E3 was the place to do it or a special event has to be coming insanely soon
PanicFreak
Member
The Neo isn't coming out in 2016. They would have talked about it during their E3 conference if it were coming out this Holiday season.
kraspkibble
Permabanned.
i'm sure they will put in more than 8GB when they release something that can do 4k 30fps. maybe PS5 because i seriously doubt the Neo will manage 4k 30fps. 1080p 60fps i think is what they are aiming at with Neo. scorpio should manage 4k 30fps which is why it has 12GB.
vpance
Member
He has a newer post from last week. The $499 option became their low end choice, but they're hesitant to make it too expensive.
DagnastyEp
Member
It's probably the optimist in me, but I think we will get Zen, and I think we will get more than 12GB of RAM.
AMD will have Zen based CPUs out this fall/winter, and APUs out in early-mid 2017. There have been a lot of complaints this generation about how weak the CPUs are, if MS really went to devs and asked them what they wanted, then I think a meaningfully CPU increase would be among those requests. We don't have details on how big Zen cores are, or what kind of die requirements they have. If they want to push 4k and VR, they'll need more than jaguar/puma; especially if they're partnering with Oculus (judging by the spec requirements for the Rift) and potentially bring those titles to console.
The GPU is getting a 4/4.5x increase, memory bandwidth is going from 68+102 to over 320GB/s. I think it's reasonable to expect significant increases in RAM and CPU.
My optimistic predictions for Scorpio:
GPU: As the DF article says, I think it'll be a custom part based on Vega. Greater than 50 CUs
CPU: 8 core Zen based
RAM: 24 GB
Memory bus: 384bit
Price: $500
AMD will have Zen based CPUs out this fall/winter, and APUs out in early-mid 2017. There have been a lot of complaints this generation about how weak the CPUs are, if MS really went to devs and asked them what they wanted, then I think a meaningfully CPU increase would be among those requests. We don't have details on how big Zen cores are, or what kind of die requirements they have. If they want to push 4k and VR, they'll need more than jaguar/puma; especially if they're partnering with Oculus (judging by the spec requirements for the Rift) and potentially bring those titles to console.
The GPU is getting a 4/4.5x increase, memory bandwidth is going from 68+102 to over 320GB/s. I think it's reasonable to expect significant increases in RAM and CPU.
My optimistic predictions for Scorpio:
GPU: As the DF article says, I think it'll be a custom part based on Vega. Greater than 50 CUs
CPU: 8 core Zen based
RAM: 24 GB
Memory bus: 384bit
Price: $500
dead monkey uk
Member
Why are so many people saying this, hardware could easily be shown at another conference or event. With Neo mode required in titles from October, what evidence is there for it not coming in 2016.
BleedOrange
Banned
Do you expect the entire market of potential upgraders to be tapped out between Q4 16/Q1 17 and Q4 17? The PS4/XB1 generation is still growing at a good clip because the value prop for these machines has grown so large. The value prop for an upgraded platform doesn't start as large as the base platform, it's going to take some time to grow as well. By Q4 '17 most publishers will have established a pipeline for providing graphics upgrades for their titles. It's actually really smart timing on MS's part.
I think it would have been very confusing to show God of war on ps4 and the other games on ps4 and then talk about neo. Sony exclusives don't lack graphics, they look Amazing already. To show a great looking game and then say it will look better on neo would be very confusing.
martino
Member
Rules can be broken but not showing hardware rumored to release in 3-6 month is new.
DOWN
Banned
Rumor is SONY has two tiers of Neo ready to go so they may just use their stronger version and launch 2017 to go head to head with Scorpio
Got a link to that?
...Scatter...
Banned
Those "questionable gains" - SMDH. Xbox Scorpio "no balance"
HORRORSHØW
Member
Same. Their games this E3 just reinforced that.
there is no way it is an 8 core Zen. Best you can hope for is that '8 cores' means 4 core Zen + hyperthreading.
The 8 core Zen is going to be going up against expensive 6-8 core Intel skylake-E CPUs and is likely to be several hundred dollars on its own. It is an enthusiast CPU initially.
The risks - both financially and practically due to yields etc to build a massive APU around an 8 core Zen + 6TF of CPU would be nuts.
Personally I think it'll be an upclocked jaguar 8 core for simplicity and a huge GPU attached to it
Next update is where maybe Zen will come along.
The 8 core Zen is going to be going up against expensive 6-8 core Intel skylake-E CPUs and is likely to be several hundred dollars on its own. It is an enthusiast CPU initially.
The risks - both financially and practically due to yields etc to build a massive APU around an 8 core Zen + 6TF of CPU would be nuts.
Personally I think it'll be an upclocked jaguar 8 core for simplicity and a huge GPU attached to it
Next update is where maybe Zen will come along.
LukasTaves
Member
I'm pretty sure pixels is the term they wanted to use.
In practical terms if you are rendering in HDR, but presenting in a regular TV you are going from pixels that use many more bits than the output, so it's a compression as far terminology goes.
dead monkey uk
Member
Are you sure about this? looking at his recent posts he says $499 is the more expensive model and he seems to have been told Sony is going for the cheaper option. Which I think is the specs that are known (and rumored $399 price)
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I'm another that thinks both these systems are Jaguar on the CPU. If they go Zen, which is a all new design for AMD , it could cause all sorts of problems for BC potentially. I'm no expert but wouldn't CPUs be more sensitive for BC?
Also the Scorpio is doing exactly the same as Neo for Forward/backward compatibility per Dave McCarthy:
There is still talk of Sony going for a better CPU and honestly it never made sense to me. That DF have said Neo is locked is pretty telling and I have said before that I believe the dev kits that went out to TP devs in March/April ( FP months before that?) were based on actual prototype APU's. DF clearly know more than they've said about Neo and will talk more about 4K upscaling from the dev docs soon, apparently.
I will say Andrew House talking to the FT was unprecedented so this all has caught Sony off guard so who knows what they're thinking right now..
One last point about iterations. I said I wasn't convinced about regular 2-3 year upgrades and Dave McCarthy said the following:
So this will be as and when they can at various times where they can hit that balance of power/cost in the limited power consumption budget consoles have to keep as near to the cutting edge as possible.
Also the Scorpio is doing exactly the same as Neo for Forward/backward compatibility per Dave McCarthy:
There is still talk of Sony going for a better CPU and honestly it never made sense to me. That DF have said Neo is locked is pretty telling and I have said before that I believe the dev kits that went out to TP devs in March/April ( FP months before that?) were based on actual prototype APU's. DF clearly know more than they've said about Neo and will talk more about 4K upscaling from the dev docs soon, apparently.
I will say Andrew House talking to the FT was unprecedented so this all has caught Sony off guard so who knows what they're thinking right now..
One last point about iterations. I said I wasn't convinced about regular 2-3 year upgrades and Dave McCarthy said the following:
So this will be as and when they can at various times where they can hit that balance of power/cost in the limited power consumption budget consoles have to keep as near to the cutting edge as possible.
I'm assuming he's talking about this post
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=206446444&highlight=#post206446444
KurtSloane
Banned
PS4 Neo will not be out until the same point as Scorpio, Zen will also be an option.
xaeroxcore
Banned
Agree ....In fact, fuck upgraded models....Let me play super graphics with the supposedly next gen system i already bought...it doesn´t matter if it has to be at 720p....I´m sick of playing PS360 games on steroids at 1080p/900p.
ethomaz
Banned
I don't know what are you saying to be fair...
Neo is be out before October with immediate release.
Scorpio will be out in Holiday 2017.
Games released this holiday will already be optimized to Neo preset.
Wow. Hyperbole much?
How exactly did they fuck you over? Were you unable to play the games you liked?
ethomaz
Banned
Sony will announce Neo in 2016 with immediate availability.
That is the best way to do it to not affect actual PS4 sales.
Or do you think people will buy Xbox One S today and Scorpio next year??? Only enthusiastic fans will do that... normal market will buy only one.
Neo will be out before AMD releases Zen.
C'mon guys we are only months behind Neo launch.
For all we know it goes back to the moar small-ish cores approach.
The generous 512KB L2 per core and 8MB L3 per quad config was guesstimated when S/A stretched a potato image from the marketing slide.