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The UK votes to leave the European Union

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Zafir

Member
Maybe economic GAF can answer this: is there nothing a government can do to mitigate these market freefalls? It seems like the leaders are just standing there like deers in headlights.

I distinctly recall a slew of economic measures after the 7/7 bombings using lessons learned from the paralysis after 9/11.

Or is this a leadership/political problem?
I'm not an economic person but as I understand it. The whole reason the market is collapsing is due to uncertainties. People don't want to invest in the UK because there isn't any guarantees of what will happen. If the banking passport is lost then the banks have a large problem. Companies which rely on trading with the EU will lose business if Britain loses access to the common market.

Until all of that is clarified it's too risky to invest.
 

kmag

Member
Guess it depends on whether you're talking absolutely or relatively. The EU exports more to the UK than the UK does to the EU. If we assume that, in both directions, those exports go elsewhere then as a whole lot wouldn't hurt the EU as much in relative terms, but it would cost them more greatly absolutely than it would cost the UK.

Obviously though exports are only part of the story.

Most of the UK's 'positive' trade is in services
2014: Services exports of 361 709.0 million USD vs Services imports of215 600.5 million USD
against Trade in Goods of exports of 483 629.3 million USD vs imports of 686 379.2 million USD

Trade in Goods can survive under a WTO GATT deal after all it's what we and the EU use to trade with the likes of the US and China, services would really struggle under a WTO GATS deal with the EU, GATS tends to be far more contentious and generally requires a per sector (and per contract) smooth out.

Sir David confirmed that, should the UK be forced to withdraw unilaterally
in this way, it would have no option but to fall back on the trading terms
derived from its membership of the World Trade Organization (WTO).57
Professor Wyatt told us the following consequences would be likely to ensue:
“We would impose tariffs on goods almost certainly at the same level
as the common external tariff. That is the tariff we impose to the
outside world currently. We leave the EU; we impose those tariffs on
goods coming to us. The EU would be a third country; the EU would
be imposing those tariffs on us. Of course, that would cost customers;
it would cost people in the shops. We cannot disarm in tariff terms,
because that is our ammunition in negotiating trade in goods. We also
want to negotiate trade in services, where the WTO is not very good
for us
… There would be tariffs between the UK and the EU, many
of them not very high but some of them—as the Government pointed
out—would be 10% on cars and 35% on dairy products.”

That also precludes the financial services sectors need for EU financial passporting which would be off the table in the event of an unorderly exit (and frankly is off the table unless a EEA deal is concluded and even then is still questionable)

Of course in all the talk of German Car manufacturers, it's often forgotten that about 60% of Cars manufactured in the UK go to the EU, whereas just under 20% of German manufactured cars go to the UK. German car manufacturers of course have lots of specific political, emotional (yes it does exist to a point in business) and ownership related reasons (lots of German car manufacturers biggest shareholders are German municipalities) to continue car manufacture in German. In contrast all the UK car manufacturers are foreign owned and frankly if the costs are sunk have little real reason to stay if the trade situation is unfavourable to them.

The UK really doesn't have that strong a hand. Trade in Goods is workable under a WTO fallback, trade in Services not really. The UK is a large economy with a terrible trade surplus, a terrible fiscal surplus fuelled by high consumer debt and over reliance on financial services which relatively easy to move out.

This is ending up at best an EEA deal, which by any objective measure is an absolute shafting (not to mention politically disastrous; although my schadenfreude when the realisation hits leave voters will be great; I mean they might be able to sell them a reduction contribution if we get and the 'advisory' nature of the ECJ to EEA participants along with some per sector exclusion but it's a far cry from closed borders and taking back 'ma country' ), we're only negotiating how big the cock is, whether they give us a cuddle before and afterwards and a reach around during it.
 

Hazzuh

Member
The issue is the party is split between people like Corbyn who are further left and the blairites who are center left. Blairites don't want Corbyn.

If you think Lisa Nandy and Jess Philips are blairites then you are delusional. The party is split between those who want to win an election and those who don't care.
 

Tommy DJ

Member
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people are quick to forget...
I'm sure a lot of people booing the UK were actually cheering on Greece when they said no to EU.

EU's rejection is strongly associated with being racist which is very short sighted but I guess it comes from people who listen to the news and then just parrot what they 've heard.

Oh maybe, just maybe, people have different opinions on different situations?
 

grumpy

Member
Wasn't greeces problems stemming from doing the very exact thing the the English have done? Nationalism over integration?

Greece's main problem was that it was spending a hell of a lot more than it earned in taxes. And in return, Greek governments, democratically elected with 40-45% of the vote borrowed large sums of money that the country could not pay back. In 2009, one year before the collapse of the economy, the gov had borrowed a ridiculous amount of money, about €25 billion. That money didn't go towards some elaborate public works projects or anything that would help develop the country's infrastructure and create tax-paying jobs. It was instead used to pay the pensions of hundreds of thousands of public workers, that weren't needed in the first place and who had taken advantage of a thousand different loopholes in the legislation in order to go into retirement at the ages of 50 or 40 or in some extreme cases 30.
 

Zafir

Member
If you think Lisa Nandy and Jess Philips are blairites then you are delusional. The party is split between those who want to win an election and those who don't care.
I was referring to before the referendum. If you'd have actually read the post you'd have realised that.

I agree now that it goes beyond that and rightly so. Corbyn wouldn't win anything as it stands. If he can't unite his party, how does he plan on getting the voters on his side?
 

Hazzuh

Member
Feels increasingly likely May will be leader. Johnson feels like damaged goods at this point. Don't know if the party will accept a Remainer.


I was referring to before the referendum. If you'd have actually read the post you'd have realised that.

I agree now that it goes beyond that and rightly so. Corbyn wouldn't win anything as it stands. If he can't unite his party, how does he plan on getting the voters on his side?

My b. Regardless, I think these problems were clear from the referendum. It just made them all clear.
 
The referendum result has empowered the racists, they think the vote to leave grants them permission to force anyone who looks foreign to up sticks and "leave".

I think the more worrying thing is that they are so young. I'm just not expecting that level of hate from essentially children. Not in 2016.
 

Doc_Drop

Member
The issue isn't his views, the issue are his actions:





It's all well and good saying that there are issues with the EU but on balance you think we should say and then passionately campaigning on that basis. It is NOT OK to say that you are in favour of Remain, saying you will campaign on Remain but then effectively refusing to do so. Yesterday he went and gave a long speech outside parliament, at no point of which did he mention the EU or the results of the referendum! It's because he doesn't care.

I don't blame him not wanting to share a stage with Cameron honestly and I wouldn't want him to. The second quote is more troubling but as bad as it looks I take from that is that he wanted to distance himself from the rhetoric that clearly did not work coming from the remain campaign
 

Maledict

Member
He also asked for Blair to investigate for war crimes due to the Iraq bogus weapons reports thingy which is happening quite soon. Blairites are spinning out of control trying to get Corbyn out asap.

This is nothing to do with "Blairites". There's like, not even 20 of them left in parliament. People need to stop spinning this weird mythical scary beast of the "Blairites".

FFS, Seema Mulhotra resigned. She's a close friend of John McDonnel. The Eagle sisters resigned. These are not centre left people! Not all of the world's ills are due to the spooky "Blairites".

It's simply the fact he is terrible as a leaser, totally unelectable, AND just sabotaged the Remain campaign deliberately.
 

jelly

Member
Feels increasingly likely May will be leader. Johnson feels like damaged goods at this point. Don't know if the party will accept a Remainer.




My b. Regardless, I think these problems were clear from the referendum. It just made them all clear.

May hates European Human Rights and loves the Snooper charter too.

Good times.
 
Greece's main problem was that it was spending a hell of a lot more than it earned in taxes. And in return, Greek governments, democratically elected with 40-45% of the vote borrowed large sums of money that the country could not pay back. In 2009, one year before the collapse of the economy, the gov had borrowed a ridiculous amount of money, about €25 billion. That money didn't go towards some elaborate public works projects or anything that would help develop the country's infrastructure and create tax-paying jobs. It was instead used to pay the pensions of hundreds of thousands of public workers, that weren't needed in the first place and who had taken advantage of a thousand different loopholes in the legislation in order to go into retirement at the ages of 50 or 40 or in some extreme cases 30.

Yeah. It's pretty unfair to say that this was all the EUs fault when stuff like that was going on.

I still think they could of been far more compassionate about things.
 
I love how the amendment is "replace everything but the first 4 words with what I think"

She is doing herself no favours but she is in a difficult place, funny thing is the potential list of Tory leadership candidates contains no one who is not hated by Scottish voters. I can see the end of the so call Tory revival in Scotland ending now.
 

grumpy

Member
What do you think they are doing now? None of the current issues are being resolved. The Greek economy is stuck in limbo for the half a decade with no end in sight.



No they would just fuck it up even more. Verhofstad is a condesending asshole and most of his friends in Greece(Theodorakis, Tzimeros) are the same or worse and lets not even talk of Junker. A hard Neoliberal government wouldn't last a year.
Greeks started the fire. Europeans decided to pour gasoline into it instead of water.

LOL

Calling Theodorakis and Tzimeros neoliberal is ignorant as fuck.
Also, blaming Greece's problems on the "neoliberalism" boogyman or even liberal policies is also moronic.

For the past 40 years, when it comes to how the state does business, allows people to conduct business, economical freedom, and state interventionism in general, the country has been acting like the unofficial 16th member of the soviet union.
 
people are quick to forget...
I'm sure a lot of people booing the UK were actually cheering on Greece when they said no to EU.

EU's rejection is strongly associated with being racist which is very short sighted but I guess it comes from people who listen to the news and then just parrot what they 've heard.

Rot. What happened in Greece was horrendous. This is not a black and white issue, though, which is why we're all so fucking furious.
 

sohois

Member
Theresa May is the most vile and evil cunt in politics. I would vote for EU membership over almost anything else, with one exception: May. A choice between her as leader or leaving the EU is no choice at all.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
So let me get this right.

Given we know pretty much this whole thing has been a blunder from Boris to become PM, he's not even going to run now?

He will run once the whole thing has settle down, guaranteed. He just doesn't want to assume charge of the party in the middle of the country melting down.
 
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