Same. Better lighting, AA especially and textures and I'll be there day one for Neo and Scorpio.
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PlayStation Meeting announced. September 7th 3PM ET (PS4 Neo Reveal)
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ArkhamFantasy
Member
Im 100% with you here.
So he's telling other devs to do what Sony is advocating for? Temporal reconstruction?
I see lighting techniques being much more advanced, graphical effects becoming more plentiful, high quality AA and higher end resolutions in general being applied.
What i don't see happening graphics wise is actual asset changes from the base game on the PS4 and XB1.
Its not worth it, and would cost the developer something significant to implement...when every copy of the game is going to run on NEO or PS4, that's a lot more work for no extra sales
I see lighting techniques being much more advanced, graphical effects becoming more plentiful, high quality AA and higher end resolutions in general being applied.
What i don't see happening graphics wise is actual asset changes from the base game on the PS4 and XB1.
Its not worth it, and would cost the developer something significant to implement...when every copy of the game is going to run on NEO or PS4, that's a lot more work for no extra sales
I read exactly what you said
And I'm telling you that you will be wrong
Yep
Those are devs basically saying that native 4K is out but you can get close enough quality wise with reconstruction. If there's enough juice for added visual improvements on top of that, these updated consoles will be quite impressive. It'll be a very console audience focused "good enough" approach but could look excellent if handled well.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I would think assets for AAA games are made much higher than what we are seeing even on PC .
Well yeah, to a point. But, the game has to actually work on every PC, and devs are not going to bake 300k polygon character models into the game for the ultra settings on PC just because your running it on a 1080 with an i7.
The same goes for these iterative units, i think the graphical changes will be far more subtle than some people expect from the base 8th gen consoles. I expect NEO and even scorpio to get initial complaints of games looking the same as PS4 and XB1, because the games themselves have the same assets, and don't look like next gen titles.
Same thoughts here. 4k is cool and everything but pls, make the games beautiful at 1080p first before going nuts with just resolution.
I'd take options over one or the other.
The sooner we get graphics settings on consoles the better.
I shouldn't have said the bottom part I admit that was dumb but still we won't see native 4K. Do you wanna take that avatar bet?
Edit:1080p, 1440p or 1800p will be most common I reckon.
gundamkyoukai
Member
That is true .
I don't have my expectations to high so i not really worry either way .
Take HZD for eg some better AA, better LOD , less frame drops and i okay .
Still i do hope some devs go crazy later on with stuff like TLOU2 and FFVIIR for eg .
Graphical options are the antithesis to closed box systems. Even with these iterative units, they are continuing maximizing closed box hardware, even in multiple iterations.
Devs can't optimize for multiple specs for huge swathes of their game and expect there to not be a decent sacrifice in being able to control their graphical rendering pipeline
thelastword
Banned
While that is true, I'm sure there can be some middle ground. They don't need to shoot for 4k native in all titles, but in between 4k resolutions would work fine too......I'm thinking devs will still go for 30fps on most titles, so I don't see them settling for 1080p 60fps as a rule.
And yet, Nioh exists.
Hawk269
Member
LMAO.
A lot of people in this thread have no idea how taxing 4k resolution is. I have been chasing 4k/60fps for a while with various PC builds. I have been using 4k TV's since they were introduced and started chasing 4k/60fps shortly after...
I7-3930k OC to 4.8 with 2 Original Titan GPU's = Fail at 4k/60fps*
I7-3930k OC to 4.8 with 2 Titan Black GPU's = Fail at 4k/60fps*
I7-3930k OC to 4.8 with 2 Titan X Maxwell GPU's = Very close, but still not 100%, especially in many games/some yes*
I7-3930k OC to 4.8 with 2 Titan X Pascal GPU's = BLISS 4k/60fps flawless execution.*
* = With games FULLY Maxed out. I capitalize "FULLY" since some don't understand when you say "FULLY", that mean's every possible setting set to it's highest setting. Most tests used The Witcher 2, Division, The Witcher 3, Tomb Raider, ESO.
Again, this is 4k/60fps, which is a hell of a lot more demanding then 4k/30fps. To expect a console with a 4.2tf of even a 6tf GPU (Natively) to do 4k/60fps with the highest shadows and other post processing effects is asking way too much.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Still you can bet if they did not have to think about 60fps .
The 30fps version would have look much better .
You do realize they accounted for this at the very start of production right? And even then, they did not actually get to 60fps, its unlocked FPS, and both versions are compromised in some way.
Its not as simple as flicking a switch and being able to account for actual game design decisions that are taken into account as the game is being made.
PC games are able to avoid these limitations due to being able to use infinite variations of hardware and brute force things.
So we agree it's possible for a console game to have graphical settings? Excellent.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Nobody is saying that its impossible, its just not worth the time and resources for most console games.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
That doesn't really change the argument. I'm not really in favor of bunch graphical settings on console though if the outcome would worse than one unified vision.
Eventually consoles will move towards PC-like models. It's already happening now with incremental upgrades and at some point, modular consoles will be a thing and settings will be a thing too. Nioh won't be the last game to give players a choice between frame rate or resolution.
And I'm gonna need some developer quotes stating that graphical settings would be asking for too much. Until then I'll keep the dream alive.
The argument is that console games should have this.
The argument i'm making is that the effort dedicated to making that a reality all throughout game development on limited hardware would be a massive undertaking, and not even proven to give good results, and is generally pointless on hardware that is still locked to a single specification.
Its far easier, far more cost effective, and far more developmental savvy to start with a base and see how far you can go in that base.
Even PC games do it, using the consoles as that base, and just ticking up certain settings to allow for effects beyond that.
NEO and Scorpio will both do it, using their previous iterations as a base and scaling the effects and res from there.
Thanks you for this. This is what I needed to back my argument up.
I wonder how taxing is 1800p 30fps medium.
Darklor01
Might need to stop sniffing glue
Forgive the lack of actual knowledge on this, but isn't that essentially what some of those Alienware boxes are? I've read about people changing out graphics cards in those.
Primethius
Banned
Nioh is a terrible example of multiple graphical options. Substandard 60FPS or mediocre looking 30 FPS.
It might as well be a 30 FPS action game to people who want stable 60.
It might as well be a 30 FPS action game to people who want stable 60.
At that poin, consoles will not exist in general, as Sony and MS and Nintendo, if they still are in gaming, will have moved to a subscription based model on generic hardware.
As long as they havew their own slice of the hardware pie and see it as advantageous, being able to control that ecosystem with the production of games tailored to it will be key.
And it is easier for the industry at large to continue in this way for the foreeable future, as it gives most games a solid foundation to work from.
Hawk269
Member
I never tried 1800p, so I am not sure. Even a single Titan X Pascal can have trouble hitting 4k/60fps even with some things turned down. For example in The Witcher 3, my single Titan X Pascal OC to 1950 would hit around 53fps at 4k, but this was with AA Turned Off, Hairworks turned off etc. All other settings set to max. Still it looked incredible and I was averaging about 53fps in fights with 3+ enemies on-screen. At times just walking around it would be solid 60fps.
It's not a good looking game by any means, but it's the only example we have.
Apply the settings to more capable development teams with AAA budgets and I could see good things being done.
The Division was supposed to have options but I don't know what happened to that.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Looking down my trophy list for PS4, these are the games I think would have a very good (assuming strong dev/pub intent) chance of full 3840x2160 geometry rendering on the rumoured hardware:
Unravel
Resogun
Gravity Rush Remastered
Tearaway Unfolded (dropping 8xMSAA + FXAA for 4xMSAA or TAA)
Unfinished Swan
Flower, flOw
Another World
p)INSIDE
Bound
These are larger, more performance-spikey games, requiring more scene-specific optimisation, but theresachance.gif:
The Last of Us Remastered
Nathan Drake Collection
^ Metal Gear Solid V would be on this list but I don't know who'd handle the update.
Capcom's struggling with decent 1080p remasters but I'm sure HexaDrive could whip up a further upgraded Okami UHD in fairly short time.
Generalising indie games isn't great because even simple looking indies often don't perform to their surface appearance. For every INSIDE there's a N.E.R.O: Nothing Ever Remains Obscure.
Primethius
Banned
Right, and I'm not going to argue against options in games. But until we get some proper games that implement them to a good or great degree, I'm inclined to side with it being too much of a development burden that doesn't have a lot of benefits and in the end, harms the user experience.
In Nioh, I played at a locked 30 because the unlocked framerate was unbearable. I'd rather they would've focused on either 30 or 60, as it would've been a much better experience.
Yeah I was thinking PS4 running at 1800p 30fps medium may need less than ⅓ of Titan Xp's horsepower.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
There's a frequently overlooked trade-off with higher resolutions in that for the same number of texture samples per pixel, you get better resolved, clearer textures. So at 2160p, you don't necessarily appreciate much difference between 8xAF and 16xAF.
Also, the less opaque and contrasty a particular rendering feature, the harder to tell its rendering at 1/4, 1/9 or even 1/16 resolution. In other words, not everything needs a 4x increase in resolution.
And UI. Upscaled static UI is always easy to spot close up on a monitor.
Also, the less opaque and contrasty a particular rendering feature, the harder to tell its rendering at 1/4, 1/9 or even 1/16 resolution. In other words, not everything needs a 4x increase in resolution.
Not so much with typical longer-distance TV viewing but if you play on 2160p monitor you'll see a difference on high contrast edges.
And UI. Upscaled static UI is always easy to spot close up on a monitor.
For highly skilled teams like Tiago Sousa's, with superb temporal anti-aliasing at high frame rates and custom scaling, pushing up-to UHD isn't so critical. But for the FXAA average, brute forcing higher resolutions is highly beneficial.
But, your detracting from your own point of 4K being taxing. I mean, it significantly taxing on the hardware (like going to Vita's native res to PS4's native res, if we're talking in actual context), but your throwing in 60fps and Ultra settings. Of course your chasing the absolute highest of the high tier.
These consoles are not attempting anywhere near that, since most will be aiming for 30fps, with graphical settings similar to OG PS4.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Another World (Out Of This World) is already 2560×1600 in the high res updated rendering mode, but it's downscaled so badly, the image quality benefits aren't that great.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I'd rather Sony not chase native 4K when isn't really feasible right now. Save it for PS5. I'm building PC for that. Current settings at 4k doesn't sound very enticing to me.
I'm not really sure about this checkerboard stuff either. I know Quantum Break used some type of reconstruction and it doesn't look very good.
I'm not really sure about this checkerboard stuff either. I know Quantum Break used some type of reconstruction and it doesn't look very good.
Nothing changed Neo will have some 4K PS4 games not 4K PC games with max settings.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Native 4K games that are not indies?
TheExecutive
Member
Yes 4k is a waste for most living rooms and the distance you sit at. Argue all you want about the value of 4k but the majority of it is lost at greater than 6 feet if you don't have a massive display.
TheExecutive
Member
There will be no AAA games at 4k on any new consoles for YEARS to come. Quote me, tag me, hold me accountable if I am wrong but I am confident it isn't happening. Also, if VR is the godsend that some folks think it is on Neogaf (it isnt) 4k is is in direct oppossion to the future of VR gaming on consoles due to FPS limiting and budget on hardware. It really is a case of choosing one over the other.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Let's be fair now. Nioh looks like ass cheeks at 60fps and runs like at ass at 1080p.
Very interested to see what the final product is gonna look like.
Yea but pc tech is like putting 1000 HP in a model T and expecting it to the world's fastest car. In the right game at 4k can be optimized to be 60 fps. I personally would prefer 1080p with amazing graphics over 4k
I would bet many developers would avoid 4K even with a PS5. This is simply a massive waste of ressources imo.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
If techniques like checkerboard rendering continue to advance and the quality differences continue to improve, I imagine they will be incorporated into the next generation by default. Native 4k is great, but if you can get close to it, save some of those resources for more effects/lighting, it would be crazy not to.
Sanctuary
Member
Not that I disagree with this, but what makes this argument any different from PC ports that end up with one or two tiers of slightly better textures?
What does this even mean? I'm pretty sure many, if not all people already realize that indie like games will be able to be done at 4K native. You just aren't going to be seeing any of the AAA exclusives that quite a lot (most?) of people buy modern consoles for in the first place. Who buys them to play retro, or Wii like games?
Woodchipper
Member
So would I.
I'd rather they run everything at an absolute solid 60fps at all times, and use the remaining power to improve the quality of some of the assets/backgrounds that can really use it rather than aim for 4k.
anothertech
Member
Personally, I think it's going to be in same boat as Albert Panello mentioned in the Scorpio thread:
If it was 1080/60 on current Gen consoles, they can try to get 4K/60 on the Neo/Scorpio. This means mostly indie games and sports games possibly with settings turned way down.
If it was 1080/30 on current Gen, they can try to get 4K/30 on those games. Which will be more AAA type games.
All in all, I'm a bit sceptical how far devs can push 4K rendering even with the power of Neo and Scorpio. I'm betting most will use dynamic scaling or other techniques to get to 4K so they can add all the bells and whistles and have a decent frame rate. Devs like to make their games pretty. It's a pride thing really.
I'm personally hoping to see what devs do with a 1080p game with every bell and whistle turned to max on these new consoles. Will be glorious.
If it was 1080/60 on current Gen consoles, they can try to get 4K/60 on the Neo/Scorpio. This means mostly indie games and sports games possibly with settings turned way down.
If it was 1080/30 on current Gen, they can try to get 4K/30 on those games. Which will be more AAA type games.
All in all, I'm a bit sceptical how far devs can push 4K rendering even with the power of Neo and Scorpio. I'm betting most will use dynamic scaling or other techniques to get to 4K so they can add all the bells and whistles and have a decent frame rate. Devs like to make their games pretty. It's a pride thing really.
I'm personally hoping to see what devs do with a 1080p game with every bell and whistle turned to max on these new consoles. Will be glorious.
Some Sports games are pretty demanding. They have always been used as a benchmark to show off new gens. And PC with ultra settings is really demanding in most games, even at 1080p. Just don't think people realize this sometimes.
This Gen's obsession with resolution is gonna end up screwing us over. I just spent several hours tonight playing bf4 on Xbox one, which is 720p, and I enjoyed the game just fine. 60fps is key. The extra horsepower in Scorpio should be used to guarantee 60fps first and foremost. 30fps is headache inducing.
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