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[Hyperactivity]

Well in a medium there should be a diverse variety and there shouldnt be a need to define it. We all play for our own reasons and there were enough of us who valued a more story focused experience. BTW I loved Ni no Kuni and in fact felt the story quotient needed to be upped even more.

Then you like story focused games. Don't define the genre that way, I'd like it to have the freedom to expand and flex itself creatively

Because guess what, the earliest jrpgs have fuck all for story. Their stories are weak tbqh.

It doesn't matter. They're all terrible.

....

eh, whatever, your opinion

 

[saturnine]

I don't know about very recent JRPGs, but I feel that a lot of your criticism fit my view of the genre starting with gen 6. Final Fantasy X featured some examples of the issues the genre started to accumulate at the time, to me.

The jump to almost always real time 3D environments made for very bare environments, especially compared to its prerendered predecessor. The attempt at a "real size" world led to the absence of a world map (due to budget I assume) and a focus on "set piece" environments that clashed entirely with the adventure feel the genre was known for.

This point was obviously understood by some developers at the time, who found ways to circumvent the issue. Skies of Arcadia is an epic sprawling adventure, but it takes place in a world where everything is located in the sky, on tiny islands. Same thing with Wild Arms 3, which features an almost completely barren and sandy landscape as its world. Others like Atlus opted to use a hub system, to maximize asset recycling. This method seems to be the most popular, nowadays, but obviously diminishes the feel of playing a grand world-spanning adventure.

There was also the absolute bullshit postgame grind. Of course hidden superbosses were always a thing, but I think that things escalated to a ridiculous degree at the time.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Last JRPG I played and enjoyed was Child of Light.

A simple, clear story which doesn't try to be needlessly shocking or controversial
An enjoyable combat system with encounters designed and not procedurally/randomly generated
Decent soundtrack
Doesn't overstay it's welcome an is a decent length

The game has a few problems, such as ridiculous lack of move variety and a silly rhyming gimmick. But compared to the things it get's right more than makes up for it.

So then I ask: What other JRPG has come out in the last 3-5 years which I would enjoy?

TWEWY?

Yeah, TWEWY should fit the bill there.

There's also the Earthbound inspired indie, Citizens of Earth

 

[Spieler Eins]

Modern technical possibilities give them the power to fully realize all of their tropey melodrama. Which is why the FF7 remake will be worse than the original and a lot more cringeworthy.

 

[Mockerre]

I'm also tired of people saying to buy a 3DS or other handheld to enjoy jrpgs. I'm a giant man, with giant man-hands and back problems and the tiny portable things with their tiny screens are just not viable for me. Tried it, but it's too painful. And even if it wouldn't, the tiny screen makes it a lot less exicting. I was so excited for VitaTV, but that turned out to be a dud.

It's all riding on FFXV now

 

[tiebreaker]

OP, have you played Tokyo Mirage Sessions? I was feeling very much the same way until I picked it up. Really a bright, fun game with a fun combat and upgrade system.

Otaku pandering with tons of fan service game??? I don't mind pandering and fan service tbh, but clearly the OP does.

 

[rahuljx]

bleeehhhh

jRPGs are japanese rpgs. Who really gives a shit if they change stuff up, and decide to expand and innovate

It's this sort of thinking that makes the genre worse, because all you'll get it the same old PS1 shit and building off of just that for the rest of the genre's life if you think this way.

The original jRPGs were based off of the oldest table-top games and crpgs that also built the foundation for some of the earliest crpgs.

Im not saying dont innovate. Im saying dont follow the norms of what a modern RPG should be. There's a reason why JRPGs are not as well-liked as before and one of the core reasons is the lack of focus on story. Have there been good JRPGs? Sure, but not even close to the adulation they had in the PS1 era. Was there not enough change even within JRPGs during the "PS1 shit"?

In fact its your way of thinking that makes the genre insipid. You have a view of what a modern game should be and feel all games need to adopt it. Its the formula for creating generic and mediocrity which is what is happening.

 

[cireza]

Most enjoyable RPG's are on Genesis and SNES for me.

The jump to 3D and disc as media was the step that added problems to how those games are built. Everything went from "fast enough" to "awfully long for nothing". Like battles, with animations and screen transitions that take too much times. Too much text but nothing of interest being said. And loadings. Games became 40 hours games, but did not have more content than, say, Phantasy Star IV, that is like 20 hours.

Fast paced RPGs disappeared with 3D. Which is sad because I love fast paced RPGs. They don't last for too long, but you WILL want to replay them.

Chrono Trigger is another example, or Seiken Densetsu 3 : not too long to complete, but you want more at the end.

Compare Lunar Eternal Blue on Sega-CD to Grandia. Both great games. But why is everything in Grandia so slow ? Battle transition, animations, experience screen, loadings... That's way too long for me. And Lunar is not especially fast either, but it is still much more bearable.

Some recent games that I feel got this right are (in terms of flow of the game) :
Blue Dragon
Lost Odyssey
Radiant Historia
Valkyria Chronicles (but that's not your standard RPG workflow here)

 

[casiopao]

Otaku pandering with tons of fan service game??? I don't mind pandering and fan service tbh, but clearly the OP does.

The otaku pandering is more sensible as it is one package with the whole entertainment industry. Not to mention the side quest actually really develop the characters into more interesting characters.

The great battle system, art style and music is also absolutely great.^_^

Most enjoyable RPG's are on Genesis and SNES for me.

The jump to 3D and disc as media was the step that added problems to how those games are built. Everything went from "fast enough" to "awfully long for nothing". Like battles, with animations and screen transitions that take too much times. Too much text but nothing of interest being said. And loadings. Games became 40 hours games, but did not have more content than, say, Phantasy Star IV, that is like 20 hours.

Fast paced RPGs disappeared with 3D. Which is sad because I love fast paced RPGs. They don't last for too long, but you WILL want to replay them.

Chrono Trigger is another example, or Seiken Densetsu 3 : not too long to complete, but you want more at the end.

Compare Lunar Eternal Blue on Sega-CD to Grandia. Both great games. But why is everything in Grandia so slow ? Battle transition, animations, experience screen, loadings... That's way too long for me. And Lunar is not especially fast either, but it is still much more bearable.

Some recent games that I feel got this right are (in terms of flow of the game) :
Blue Dragon
Lost Odyssey
Radiant Historia
Valkyria Chronicles (but that's not your standard RPG workflow here)

Bravely Default had super fast paced gameplay though? SMTIV too.

 

[rahuljx]

I agree. It is ur opinion and taste. What can i do to change u lol? But i really disagree with ur sentences here.

Let the western rpgs build upon their strengths and JRPGs build upon theirs.

Jrpg strength is never only story. Their great battle system is one of the reason why there is so many people till now still love the genre. While the number had decreased compared to older times, during that times there is so many experimental battle system which absolutely blast. So, i don't agree with the building on strength on Jrpg which is story.

I agree JRPGs are liked for a variety of reasons but one of the reasons I feel the genre is faltering is because of the lack of focus of story. Maybe Im wrong but I feel battle systems and character growth systems are alive and well and not the reason for lack of interest.

 

[Zafir]

The market has just shifted a lot. It's meant a lot of once great JRPG series have just faltered. Between straight up dying, getting extremely low budget iterations and then wondering why people are disappointed or just straight up moving the games to handhelds.

I mean yeah handhelds are great and all, but it's just a pain for me personally. They're uncomfortable to hold for long periods, and I'm very rarely in a situation where I can take advantage of them in the way they're meant to be played.(ie out and about, or on journeys or something) Usually I'm at home, and well at that point I'd rather be playing on my PC or console.

I finished it. Hell, I made all the right choices the first time but the game forced a bad ending on me anyway. I was pissed and continued to hate-play it for some reason (I blame my boyfriend, he gave a glowing rec for the game and I foolishly trusted him), making different choices. I died again. Then my bf explained what the deal was, I was like "Are you kidding me... urgh ok", replayed it making the SAME choices as the first time, got the "true" ending, which was.... somehow even worse.

I hear you.

Sadly I didn't hate play it. I just gave up after I chose the right choices and got the bad ending because I hadn't gotten the arbitrary requirements before hand.

I think what annoyed me the most was having to redo puzzles, like, there's a reason VN's always put those kind of skips in.

 

[AzureFlame]

Try Lost Odyssey, my favourite JRPG of the previous gen.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Im not saying dont innovate. Im saying dont follow the norms of what a modern RPG should be. There's a reason why JRPGs are not as well-liked as before and one of the core reasons is the lack of focus on story. Have there been good JRPGs? Sure, but not even close to the adulation they had in the PS1 era. Was there not enough change even within JRPGs during the "PS1 shit"?

In fact its your way of thinking that makes the genre insipid. You have a view of what a modern game should be and feel all games need to adopt it. Its the formula for creating generic and mediocrity which is what is happening.

Really?

If you're talking about me being realistic about which jrpgs have the sales to have gone to 360/PS3, and which ones transiitoned to portables, that's just being realistic. I would say in the same breath that the portable consoles have better jrpg libraries by far.

Tell me more about how you determined objectively that the core reason jrpgs are disliked these days is lack of focus on story?

Sorry to say, but taking cues from modern rpgs, or mixing and matching, or making their own flavor or take on a system, isn't an example of jrpgs being forced into being modern. FFS, I don't own next-gen consoles, and in the past, I've taken forever to get new consoles. I get into series years and years after they began, I rarely buy games on release. But pls, tell me more about how I want jrpgs to be more like the modern games I play so little of, I'd love to hear more.

Xenoblade taking cues from MMOs in it's battle system isn't an example of "muh jrpgs are being forced to be like modern bland WESTERN rpgs", it's an example of Xenoblade mixing and matching and adding it's own stuff to the genre to change it up. Me praising that isn't me wanting every jrpg to have a more MMO style combat system (I damn well prefer turn-based, no real time, in general). It's just me liking the fact that the game innovated.

And did we play the same PS1 jrpgs? I'm not sure many of their stories were ever that focused, what's more, a bunch of the stuff people complain about in jrpgs starts there (FF8 story is so meeeh, FF7 is decent but set the course that way, and the whole overly pretentious jrpg thing starts around here too).

Guess what, sometimes, after all of that, playing an rpg that keeps it's plot relatively simple and straightforward is a nice change of pace. Because attempts at complex plots that are taken seriously but not done well are often just really bad.

The stereotypical jRPG tries to have a "serious" plot but is honestly just a mess to go through. When complex plots are done well, holy shit yes, but if you don't know what the fuck you're doing, just give me good guys, bad guys, good character development (not inherently tied to a good plot), and try to keep things a little more simple. Sure, have your twists and stuff, but keep it overall straightforward (Golden Sun, Xenoblade were really refreshing in this way. Yeah, they weren't story focused, but there are plenty of rpgs that focus on being story focused)

I'd honestly like to hear why the lack of focus on story is what's hurting jrpgs.

 

[Cyrano]

I still think Earthbound is the pinnacle of games writing.

But that's also because it used the game as a medium, rather than a media. It is still exceedingly rare for games writing to even attempt this, because admittedly, it's a pretty one-sided cliff and if the player falls off, you've lost them for good. On the other hand, there's also a hell of a lot to be gained from taking the chance as well. It's risky. Game companies tend to be so risk averse now that very few would be willing to even attempt it, and if it failed once they're unlikely to ever try again.

 

[dlauv]

I'm excited for YIIK.

Looks pretty refreshing. Undertale was good too.

I'm forcing my way through the FF13 series. I really wish they'd stop trailing off with their thoughts and I wish the camera would stop lingering. It's like manufactured yugen aesthetics. Lightning Returns was really good in a love/hate kind of way, and it's the only one in the series I've beaten. I liked all of the agency given to you and figuring out where to go and stuff. A guide was needed for some of it, so I wouldn't give it above a 4/10, but I really like games that function kind of like Shenmue/Majora's Mask.

 

[shark sandwich]

I always wonder what it would be like if the big JRPG studios collaborated with some western writers. The writing in JRPGs has never been good, but the advent of voice acting and the increasing focus on the niche otaku/weeb audience really took it to the next level of cringe-worthiness.

Play a game like Final Fantasy XIII or even GAF darling Trails in the Sky, then go straight to Mass Effect or Dragon Age. My reaction was "holy shit, these people are actual grown ups with functioning brains and complex inner lives and motivations." It's on a completely different level.

 

[Korigama]

JRPGs always stood out because they were focused story driven experiences. It was not about freedom, customisation, difficulty, battle systems, etc., but rather It was all about delivering the emotion of the story through memorable moments, music, plot twists, etc.

With the advancement in hardware there has been this unnecessary need to reinvent everything so it plays like a "modern" game. This is a huge mistake because it feels like resources are going towards areas fans of the genre dont give a damn about.

I couldnt care less about the difficulty, miles and miles of unexplored terrain, 100+ hours of content. A great story with good music and decent graphics is all we are looking for. Let the western rpgs build upon their strengths and JRPGs build upon theirs. From Square alone we had so many unique RPGS in the PSX and SNES era, so theres no reason to believe it will get stale.

Hm, can't say I agree with this. Though it's very much important that the story, and cast, of a JRPG hold my attention, and that the visual and audio presentation are also to my liking, these are by no means the only things that matter. Ideally, combat should be enjoyable and provide a reasonable amount of challenge, with its mechanics and the characters' abilities just as reflective of the story and setting as anything else. At the same time, however, the notion of only playing a JRPG for its battle system is also weird (though I won't mince words, and would argue that willingly playing a narrative-focused game for dozens of hours in spite of caring about nothing but the combat makes one much weirder). The structure and the pacing need to be handled properly, and having the player sit through too much dialogue and too many cutscenes without enough gameplay and exploration to break it up simply doesn't work (railroading players all while giving them no reason to care about the story or the world it's set in as FFXIII did is also bad).

If anything, I see the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. I require all of these things to work reasonably well to remain invested.

 

[rahuljx]

Really?

If you're talking about me being realistic about which jrpgs have the sales to have gone to 360/PS3, and which ones transiitoned to portables, that's just being realistic. I would say in the same breath that the portable consoles have better jrpg libraries by far.

Tell me more about how you determined objectively that the core reason jrpgs are disliked these days is lack of focus on story?

Sorry to say, but taking cues from modern rpgs, or mixing and matching, or making their own flavor or take on a system, isn't an example of jrpgs being forced into being modern. FFS, I don't own next-gen consoles, and in the past, I've taken forever to get new consoles. I get into series years and years after they began, I rarely buy games on release. But pls, tell me more about how I want jrpgs to be more like the modern games I play so little of, I'd love to hear more.

Xenoblade taking cues from MMOs in it's battle system isn't an example of "muh jrpgs are being forced to be like modern bland WESTERN rpgs", it's an example of Xenoblade mixing and matching and adding it's own stuff to the genre to change it up. Me praising that isn't me wanting every jrpg to have a more MMO style combat system (I damn well prefer turn-based, no real time, in general). It's just me liking the fact that the game innovated.

And did we play the same PS1 jrpgs? I'm not sure many of their stories were ever that focused, what's more, a bunch of the stuff people complain about in jrpgs starts there (FF8 story is so meeeh, FF7 is decent but set the course that way, and the whole overly pretentious jrpg thing starts around here too).

Guess what, sometimes, after all of that, playing an rpg that keeps it's plot relatively simple and straightforward is a nice change of pace. Because attempts at complex plots that are taken seriously but not done well are often just really bad.

The stereotypical jRPG tries to have a "serious" plot but is honestly just a mess to go through. When complex plots are done well, holy shit yes, but if you don't know what the fuck you're doing, just give me good guys, bad guys, good character development (not inherently tied to a good plot), and try to keep things a little more simple. Sure, have your twists and stuff, but keep it overall straightforward (Golden Sun, Xenoblade were really refreshing in this way. Yeah, they weren't story focused, but there are plenty of rpgs that focus on being story focused)

I'd honestly like to hear why the lack of focus on story is what's hurting jrpgs.

Its actually really simple. Ask yourself this... Have you ever played a game where because of the story and emotion it evoked, it changed the way you viewed storytelling in games? It showed you the power of the medium in a sense. JRPGs were the first to do that for me and opened that door better than most genres. If you have experienced this there's little that needs to be said because you already know the potential.

Who knows what SNES/ PS1 games you played but yes the usual suspects were all great. You can find flaws and nitpick but if your willing to appreciate whats there its a spectacular achievement.

And I love Xenoblade so no argument there. There are still good JRPGs, but Im talking about the overall decline which stems from the lack of good stories (because all the other ingredients are more or less there).

Why do you think modern JRPGs are such a mess?

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

I always wonder what it would be like if the big JRPG studios collaborated with some western writers. The writing in JRPGs has never been good, but the advent of voice acting and the increasing focus on the niche otaku/weeb audience really took it to the next level of cringe-worthiness.

Play a game like Final Fantasy XIII or even GAF darling Trails in the Sky, then go straight to Mass Effect or Dragon Age. My reaction was "holy shit, these people are actual grown ups with functioning brains and complex inner lives and motivations." It's on a completely different level.

There's always a faint whiff of imperialism about this sort of "The West needs to come in and save Japan from itself" comment. At any rate, if you so prefer the storytelling approach of Bioware games, why do you not content yourself with playing Bioware games? Why do you care what stories Japanese games have? Do Japanese RPGs have anything going for them that you cannot get in Bioware?

 

[rahuljx]

Hm, can't say I agree with this. Though it's very much important that the story, and cast, of a JRPG hold my attention, and that the visual and audio presentation are also to my liking, these are by no means the only things that matter. Ideally, combat should be enjoyable and provide a reasonable amount of challenge, with its mechanics and the characters' abilities just as reflective of the story and setting as anything else. At the same time, however, the notion of only playing a JRPG for its battle system is also weird (though I won't mince words, and would argue that willingly playing a narrative-focused game for dozens of hours in spite of caring about nothing but the combat makes one much weirder). The structure and the pacing need to be handled properly, and having the player sit through too much dialogue and too many cutscenes without enough gameplay and exploration to break it up simply doesn't work (railroading players all while giving them no reason to care about the story or the world it's set in as FFXIII did is also bad).

If anything, I see the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. I require all of these things to work reasonably well to remain invested.

Your right in saying the whole is greater than the sum of the parts but the point of my post was that the intention of past JRPGs felt like it was to deliver a rich story. That was the primary goal to design everything else to further this cause.

 

[Lunarian]

Maybe you're playing the wrong JRPGs?

Xenoblade, Last Story, and Radiant Historia are some of my favorite JRPGs of all time. It's been 5 years since those games came out, but I don't think it's time to freak out yet.

The Trails games are legit too. Bravely Default isn't bad. People like Ni No Kuni for some reason

Spoiler

I'm kidding. kind of.

I agree with 2/3 of those games. Last Story was probably one of the worst games I've ever played in a long time. Radiant Historia is definitely top tier for JRPGs.

 

[vanDoughnut]

And did we play the same PS1 jrpgs? I'm not sure many of their stories were ever that focused, what's more, a bunch of the stuff people complain about in jrpgs starts there (FF8 story is so meeeh, FF7 is decent but set the course that way, and the whole overly pretentious jrpg thing starts around here too).

There were some hot ones like Suikoden II and FFIX. Great story and characters.
Suikoden II has a great sense of scope to it but at the same time is really focused. I think the story is incredible.

I agree JRPGs are liked for a variety of reasons but one of the reasons I feel the genre is faltering is because of the lack of focus of story. Maybe Im wrong but I feel battle systems and character growth systems are alive and well and not the reason for lack of interest.

I can see this for some games.
Like Bravely Default man is that game "a good story" short of being a classic. (Maybe needs better towns too) Much as I enjoyed the battle/job system couldn't finish it because the characters, dialogue, general plot were pretty meh.
Don't necessarily agree with the OP though.

 

[cireza]

Bravely Default had super fast paced gameplay though? SMTIV too.

This is true. I simply did not play those games much. I gave a list of games that I completed

The speed of the game is one very important thing to my eyes. Of course, if your game is super fast, but still requires a ton of grinding, it will remain a problem. I don't know how much grinding those two games require, but the ones I listed don't require any.

 

[duckroll]

Modern technical possibilities give them the power to fully realize all of their tropey melodrama. Which is why the FF7 remake will be worse than the original and a lot more cringeworthy.

Look on the bright side. Now Mariah Carey might actually be cheap enough that they can afford to have her sing the vocal theme song! A lifelong dream finally realized.

 

[redcrayon]

There were some hot ones like Suikoden II and FFIX. Great story and characters.
Suikoden II has a great sense of scope to it but at the same time is really focused. I think the story is incredible.



I can see this for some games.
Like Bravely Default man is that game "a good story" short of being a classic. (Maybe needs better towns too) Much as I enjoyed the battle/job system couldn't finish it because the characters, dialogue, general plot were pretty meh.
Don't necessarily agree with the OP though.

Bravely Default 2 pretty much fixes every issue I had with the original. It's got a fantastic battle system, flexible party development/composition, you can fast-forward or ignore battles, and program it to repeat a turn with a formulaic battle. It also cracks along at quite a pace with a good selection of characters.

The only thing I don't like that it repeats is the ability to turn off random battles in a new dungeon, so you can basically explore it for treasure and then only start fighting once you find the save point, removing any tension or risk. That's just a willpower thing to not abuse it though.

It's a shame that it rarely gets mentioned due to releasing amongst a haze of portable RPGs, when it's one of the best all-round JRPGs of the last couple of years.

 

[Turin]

Look on the bright side. Now Mariah Carey might actually be cheap enough that they can afford to have her sing the vocal theme song! A lifelong dream finally realized.

Heard this in my head after reading this.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TUeUL7EW9M

 

[Dargor]

I blame the PS3.

The transition between the SD and HD age for the japanese market in general was really rough.

 

[Haganeren]

Between the very trope-filled modern idol Tokyo Mirage Session, Classic Bravely DEfault, strange take like The World Ends With You, More Modern Tales of Xillia (that i don't find more filled of tropes than classic AAA....), gestion heavy Atelier serie, western Undertale or Child of Light, Pokemon which stay.... Pokemon, exploration heavy Xenoblade, experimental FFXIII follow up, very classic Final Fantasy-esque Lost Odyssey, Nintendo RPGs which are always strange, debatable Dark Souls, very western oriented Dragon's Dogma, Multiplayer oriented God Eater, Sidescrolling Odin Sphere, Persona which is doing totally something else with its emphasis on slice of life or Text-Heavy JRPG like Trails in the Sky, i can't understand why you said J RPG always follow the same tropes.

A mess ? Maybe, it's a very diverse genre with a lot of difference experiences, you could tell that you can't find a J RPG up to your PSX-era tastes. Or maybe you just want J RPG to more like W RPG ? Which makes you feel like video games are going farther like The Witcher 3 ?

You could say all that but that it never evolve ? I couldn't disagree more. I could say the genre was a lot less experimental during the PSX days... Mainly because making a game was less expensive at the time i guess. (I WON'T say that J RPG wasn't experimental during the PSX days though... But those game remained mainly in Japan apart from a few exception (Parasite Eve, Koudelka...)

 

[JCX]

What is even a "modern JRPG"?

Is it Xenoblade Chronicles, with its MMO/WRPG-inspired game mechanics?

Is it Bravely Second, with possibly the most streamlined job system in a SE JRPG?

While they may share a common lineage, these two games are pretty different from each other.

Since the dark ages of JRPGs during last gen, there hasn't been a big trendsetting JRPG that A) Sold a lot to a mass audience and B) was critically acclaimed. Because of this, the genre stretched by incorporating ideas frok other genres (XC/XCX) or perfecting systems from older JRPGs (P4G, Bravely).

 

[shark sandwich]

There's always a faint whiff of imperialism about this sort of "The West needs to come in and save Japan from itself" comment. At any rate, if you so prefer the storytelling approach of Bioware games, why do you not content yourself with playing Bioware games? Why do you care what stories Japanese games have? Do Japanese RPGs have anything going for them that you cannot get in Bioware?

Give me a break, don't even start with the "imperialism" crap. I've been a hardcore JRPG fan for over 20 years now. There are a lot of things I like about the genre:

-the striking visual design
-beautiful & catchy musical themes (whereas in most WRPGs the tunes are background/ambient music)
-fun, flashy, over-the-top battle systems
-generally aren't over-concerned with making everything realistic, not afraid to have some fun & silliness
-fantastical environments to explore rather than just forest/mountains/caves/etc
-focused, mostly linear, story-driven approach (whereas "go anywhere, do anything, choose your own path" seems to be the ultimate goal that WRPGs take)

I don't know how long you've been following JRPGs, but there was definitely a feeling in the late 90s/early 2000s that JRPGs were set to revolutionize storytelling in video games. Square-Enix was at the forefront; it was their explicitly stated goal to strengthen their ties to Hollywood. (And incidentally, why did The Spirits Within flop so bad? I would argue it was the bad JRPG-style writing and melodrama.)

Since then, aside from a couple notable exceptions (e.g. FF XII), JRPGs pretty much gave up and decided they would be content catering to the same shrinking niche audience of otaku. And apparently anybody who wants JRPG storytelling to be more than just the same recycled tropes and cliches must be an imperialist. As if there is something great about this tripe that we ignorant westerners just can't understand. (Whereas, in reality, it is my understanding that otaku crap is far more reviled and socially unacceptable in Japan than anywhere else).

So, whatever. I love JRPGs. I think their writing sucks. And I think that this is one area where WRPGs have upped their game while JRPGs regressed. Guess I am an imperialist!

 

[selfconfessedcynic]

I came to this thread hoping for people to defend JRPGs (which they have) and also post some cool non-wii/u ones I hadn't tried yet (which sadly didn't happen - noting that I just don't own one of those in spite of really wanting to play Tokyo Mirage Sessions).

Man, I need FFXV and P5 to be good... Need a new JRPG in my life.

Oh, and notably, very few people (if any? I may have missed a post) have brought up the excellent Fire Emblem Awakening. Sure it's a handheld (and the OP doesn't like handhelds) but so many good games have been thrown about that I'm surprised FE didn't come up / didn't come up much. To be fair though, the split nature of Fates really did fracture the audience for the series, so maybe that's why it's been semi forgotten.

Edit: That's not to say Fire Emblem Awakening has a good story - but the character interactions are solid and fun.

 

[xevis]

....

eh, whatever, your opinion

Let's set aside the quality of the writing for a second (it's awful, but hey, different strokes). Can we at least agree the way the game is structured is bullshit? Rather than tell you about my experiences, I'll repost something from Morrigan Stark earlier in the thread:

I finished it. Hell, I made all the right choices the first time but the game forced a bad ending on me anyway. I was pissed and continued to hate-play it for some reason (I blame my boyfriend, he gave a glowing rec for the game and I foolishly trusted him), making different choices. I died again. Then my bf explained what the deal was, I was like "Are you kidding me... urgh ok", replayed it making the SAME choices as the first time, got the "true" ending, which was.... somehow even worse.

Fuck I hate this stupid game and now I'm in a bad mood for even ranting about it

 

[shark sandwich]

Look on the bright side. Now Mariah Carey might actually be cheap enough that they can afford to have her sing the vocal theme song! A lifelong dream finally realized.

The FF VIIr theme song will be Of Monsters and Men covering Mariah Carey's "Hero". You heard it here first.

 

[wild wild rice]

Tokyo Mirage Sessions is surprisingly tight and focused. I'm enjoying the shit out of it. It may be the most I've enjoyed a straight JRPG (meaning not Souls or Fire Emblem) since...FF VII. All the Final Fantasies, Xenoblades and Personas of the past two gens have just been disgustingly bloated and distended products.

It gives me hope that JRPG developers can realize less is more.

 

[CottonWolf]

Rather than P3, i would suggest him Strange Journey lol. That one is true quality.^_^

Strange Journey is not a game I would ever recommend to someone. You have to to actively masochistic to keep playing it at points. I'm looking at you, Eridanus.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

And apparently anybody who wants JRPG storytelling to be more than just the same recycled tropes and cliches must be an imperialist.

Suggesting video game writers, like those employed at BioWare, should get contracted/join a Japanese developer making xRPGs isn't a good solution for the vast majority of developers that could scout them out and make a deal. Language barrier would be the largest problem by far, even with a good interpreter bridging the dialogue between English-speaking writer(s) and Japanese-speaking planners/programmers. Then we're overlooking an obvious solution (one which Mistwalker tried to an extent with Lost Odyssey): get successful, talented Japanese fiction authors to write part of the game for you, if not the whole script. Ideally they'd join the project knowing, in most cases, they'd be writing a hero's journey, but there's plenty of premises and plot turns/tropes which haven't been explored generally or in detail by xRPGs from Japan. The big frickin' problem's getting any busy, acclaimed Japanese author (who isn't already working on TV dramas, the occasional good movie still made over there, or even some anime series/LNs which aren't inbred garbage) to consider and then agree to work on one or more video games. And who's gonna reliably buy a game over there which challenges tropes and set-ups familiar to otaku who desire and only buy regurgitation of their childhood favorites? That last part's a generalization, but mostly true, and by contrast I can point to older Japanese game fans who, despite the ravages of decades and hardships, still play and buy a diverse array of games like xRPGs, hoping they can get more great titles.

Disposable media economy in Japan, and the factors behind production and localization throughout non-East Asian markets, went into decline right around the PS2 era. You're getting very few oddities from mid-size developers anymore, like Abarenbou Princess or Giftpia, despite them being common during the late PS1 and PS2 eras. Pop music, too, and movies have gone down the drain because the Japanese mainstream doesn't buy them, usually because they're too fucking busy to live and have free time like they used to. (I am really salty about the state of cinema in Japan and how 4/5 of talent which used to thrive in theaters has migrated to TV, often with less freedom). It doesn't help that most of the children who bought Dragon Quest III and grew up to graduate from high schools, giving their lives for jobs in turn, have become salarymen, leaving mainly the otaku audience to keep game devs alive.

 

[CottonWolf]

I too want my Haruki Murakami game.

 

[casiopao]

Tokyo Mirage Sessions is surprisingly tight and focused. I'm enjoying the shit out of it. It may be the most I've enjoyed a straight JRPG (meaning not Souls or Fire Emblem) since...FF VII. All the Final Fantasies, Xenoblades and Personas of the past two gens have just been disgustingly bloated and distended products.

It gives me hope that JRPG developers can realize less is more.

Bravely Second is not that long right?

Strange Journey is not a game I would ever recommend to someone. You have to to actively masochistic to keep playing it at points. I'm looking at you, Eridanus.

Lol. I would eat that pain rather than struggling to finish such a bloat mess like Persona 3 and 4.T_T

 

[JC Lately]

Looking for quality jrpgs these days and "not caring" for handhelds is as absurd as wondering where all the great real-time strategy games are without caring for PCs. You go where the games are; otherwise, stop your whining.

Post of the year right here. So many good jrpg's on handhelds right now, I feel like I could play nothing but my 3DS for the rest of the year and still never catch up. I mean fuck, i still have a copy of Strane Journey I've barely scratched the surface of.

 

[kiyomi]

Voice acting killed JRPG stories.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

I too want my Haruki Murakami game.

If she were still alive, the creator/original writer behind Guin Saga could have penned an amazing one-off story for a game.

 

[ar4757]

At least you played two of the games i was gonna recommend (TWEWY and Persona 4). Play some Shin Megami Tensei for a series lacking a lot of tropes and cliches. Digital Devil Saga was sweet too

 

[potatohead]

My biggest issue with the modern RPG is the completely nonsensical and overly complicated storylines. I still have no idea what the fuck happened in Final Fantasy X and that was simple compared to a lot of modern JRPGs.

FF15 looks like goddamn mess, storyline wise.

I don't know if its a translation issue, but the plots have been my biggest issue....that and horrible character designs.

I prefer high fantasy compared to steampunk guys with zippers and belts everywhere.

Also, cell phones and cars don't belong in JRPGs.

I also prefer turn based to active combat where you control 1 character at a time.

Needless to say, I'm skipping FF15.

+1

 

[CottonWolf]

If she were still alive, the creator/original writer behind Guin Saga could have penned an amazing one-off story for a game.

I actually didn't know she'd died. If you're not looking for high art, the Berserk writer could probably write quite a good horror game, or get Gen Urobachi to throw something together.

 

[Aiustis]

There are plenty of good ones...they just moved to the handheld space. If handhelds are a deal break, just lament and move on.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

I actually didn't know she'd died. If you're not looking for high art, the Berserk writer could probably write quite a good horror game, or get Gen Urobachi to throw something together.

Well I wouldn't mind a classic light novel writer doing more work in games. Take the example of Yuto Ramon who developed the story for JRPGs like Minelvaton/Silva Saga for the Famicom and a couple of PC-88 graphic text adventures too. He's famous mostly for his GDLeen universe he developed in both his '80s/'90s books and the PC-88 game Digan no Maseki; now he's stuck writing naval warfare fantasies because military otaku's got money. Don't forget Rika Suzuki, former lead designer and writer at CING and Riverhill Soft, whose constant commercial woes (and, honestly, mismanagement) have kept her out of game development for a while now. Even the old CING team's reunited lately, but she can't get even a smidgen of the success her former protege Akihiro Hino's gotten. That's just not right considering her talents and past works.

 

[Dark_castle]

Oh, and notably, very few people (if any? I may have missed a post) have brought up the excellent Fire Emblem Awakening. Sure it's a handheld (and the OP doesn't like handhelds) but so many good games have been thrown about that I'm surprised FE didn't come up / didn't come up much. To be fair though, the split nature of Fates really did fracture the audience for the series, so maybe that's why it's been semi forgotten.

Edit: That's not to say Fire Emblem Awakening has a good story - but the character interactions are solid and fun.

I dislike most of the characters in Awakening and Fates largely because of how ridiculously easy they would just fall in love with other characters and marry him/her. It completely breaks my immersion. I know the marriage and child unit was to serve as gameplay mechanics (in addition to appeal to fucking otakus), but it really affected the story/characters for me.

I much prefer the way older Fire Emblem develops the characters to end up becoming best platonic friends, but not to the point of falling in love and wedding, for crying out loud.

 

[Dice//]

Modern technical possibilities give them the power to fully realize all of their tropey melodrama. Which is why the FF7 remake will be worse than the original and a lot more cringeworthy.

Honestly this is my biggest concern with it at this point. I know it'll look great, I'm kinda sure it'll play alright, but I think there might be a lot of ham and cheese in dramatic parts.

 

[shark sandwich]

I get what he means by the off-putting nature of extreme anime tropes, where none of the characters feel like people anymore. I love TitS but he is absolutely right that spending time with that cast can wear on you if you're not the type that loves to consistently invite those kinds of storytelling experiences into your life.

However, those Bioware games have their own collection of tropes, and often feel less than real themselves. They're basically Joss Whedon characters turned up to 11. The creepy take on romance, where everybody is secretly in love with you, and the "quest line" abruptly ends after you have sex once, isn't really representative of adult characters with "complex inner lives".

Even the intentionally pulpy characters of The Witcher handle romance and drama in more realistic ways. Bioware's house style is realistic only insofar as the player character is willing to buy into the idea that they are the most alluring, charismatic person in the universe.

There are issues specific to JRPG storytelling, but I've noticed a lot of the complaints are easily about RPG writing in general and even videogames as a whole.

I certainly don't think that Bioware games are the ultimate pinnacle of storytelling, but they are 100 times better than something like Final Fantasy XIII or even GAF darling Trails in the Sky.

For example, TitS's idea of romance is the "hot child friend whom the hero gradually realizes they have feelings for" and it fucking beats you over the head with it. There are probably 20 times where someone says something like "Estelle, Joshua is hot and he's not your real brother, you could totally bone him!" and probably another 20 scenes where Joshua gets attention from another girl and Estelle gets jealous and tries to understand these strange, wondrous feelings.

And it culminates with the classic "accidentally see each other naked. . . and they like what they see!!" ice-breaker.

(Disclaimer: I quit shortly after that point in the game so I don't know how it plays out from there, but what I saw was extremely cliched, adolescent, and otaku-y)

I would say that good WRPGs are roughly comparable to decent Hollywood movie writing, but they are like freaking Shakespeare in comparison to most JRPGs.

 

[FStubbs]

I certainly don't think that Bioware games are the ultimate pinnacle of storytelling, but they are 100 times better than something like Final Fantasy XIII or even GAF darling Trails in the Sky.

For example, TitS's idea of romance is the "hot child friend whom the hero gradually realizes they have feelings for" and it fucking beats you over the head with it. There are probably 20 times where someone says something like "Estelle, Joshua is hot and he's not your real brother, you could totally bone him!" and probably another 20 scenes where Joshua gets attention from another girl and Estelle gets jealous and tries to understand these strange, wondrous feelings.

And it culminates with the classic "accidentally see each other naked. . . and they like what they see!!" ice-breaker.

(Disclaimer: I quit shortly after that point in the game so I don't know how it plays out from there, but what I saw was extremely cliched, adolescent, and otaku-y)

I would say that good WRPGs are roughly comparable to decent Hollywood movie writing, but they are like freaking Shakespeare in comparison to most JRPGs.

BiowarePlotChart.png

You simply prefer Western tropes and cliches to Japanese ones. One isn't objectively better.