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Why are modern JRPGs such a mess?

RDreamer

Member
There's always a faint whiff of imperialism about this sort of "The West needs to come in and save Japan from itself" comment. At any rate, if you so prefer the storytelling approach of Bioware games, why do you not content yourself with playing Bioware games? Why do you care what stories Japanese games have? Do Japanese RPGs have anything going for them that you cannot get in Bioware?

Absolutely. I tend to think Japanese RPGs are far more creative and imaginative with character designs, environmental designs, and also gameplay. They can also tend to be a bit better for music, too, though Bioware is pretty good there. Some sort of combination of the two styles would probably be my ideal RPG. I want something that's imaginative and creative yet grounded and well written enough to be relatable.

I don't think we need western writers doing it, though. There's plenty of evidence that writers in Japan can do this sort of thing. I think they're just pushing for the wrong demographic for it, and afraid to really branch out and target others. Instead they seem to continue to funnel toward that niche crowd that for sure buys their games and tends to like some of the craziest tropes.
 
Isn't the plot issue equally applicable to Western games too? In almost every AAA you are a family-less hero who should save the world.

Not to say that it is okay, but simply that whatever is the cause, is not exclusive to Japan.
 
Modern technical possibilities give them the power to fully realize all of their tropey melodrama. Which is why the FF7 remake will be worse than the original and a lot more cringeworthy.
Honestly this is my biggest concern with it at this point. I know it'll look great, I'm kinda sure it'll play alright, but I think there might be a lot of ham and cheese in dramatic parts.

100%

I still think if the Gooch was in charge we'd be getting stuff a lot more subdued and less flashy and tropey with narrative.

Gooch wasn't Shakespeare or anything, not saying 100% original or anything, but I surely bet his delivery and style would be so much better for the international audience than anything Square-Enix today could come up with.
 
I certainly don't think that Bioware games are the ultimate pinnacle of storytelling, but they are 100 times better than something like Final Fantasy XIII or even GAF darling Trails in the Sky.

For example, TitS's idea of romance is the "hot child friend whom the hero gradually realizes they have feelings for" and it fucking beats you over the head with it. There are probably 20 times where someone says something like "Estelle, Joshua is hot and he's not your real brother, you could totally bone him!" and probably another 20 scenes where Joshua gets attention from another girl and Estelle gets jealous and tries to understand these strange, wondrous feelings.

And it culminates with the classic "accidentally see each other naked. . . and they like what they see!!" ice-breaker.

(Disclaimer: I quit shortly after that point in the game so I don't know how it plays out from there, but what I saw was extremely cliched, adolescent, and otaku-y)

I would say that good WRPGs are roughly comparable to decent Hollywood movie writing, but they are like freaking Shakespeare in comparison to most JRPGs.
See, they do characterize well and write why and how Estelle feels the way she does. You don't like the romance? That's fine.

Blaming the writing and storytelling by using the romance as an example? That's a huge disservice. How was anything about it "Otaku-y" (is this even a word?) ?

The writing/plot/lore of TitS is much more impressive and better than most WRPGs or even JRPGs. FC is also only one half of the game which you have not even bothered to complete.
 

Forkball

Member
Amnesia-ridden, fatherless, sword wielding guy going on adventures for some sort of higher meaning. A lead female who is a spell caster and love interest to the dude, follows him with a ragtag group of outcasts hope to save humanity.
Dragon Age is not a JRPG.

Here are some recent JRPGs I've enjoyed:

Bravely Default: It embraces tradition, but the brave/default system was a really ingenious way to make turned based battles more tactical and thoughtful. There is also a lot of customization in terms of how you form your team even though you're stuck with only four characters. Although the story is not so amazing, it does have a rather interesting twist.

Shin Megami Tensei IV: A bizarre, unique setting (yes I know all the other SMT games are a similar setting, but other games don't really ape it). It is challenging but never unfair. I personally found the story to be captivating since the world you inhabit is so bizarre and creepy that I was interested to see what strange thing would happen next.

Xenoblade Chronicles X: The story is pretty much all over the place, but the game excels at fast-paced combat and providing a dangerous world worth exploring. You will constantly challenge yourself to see if you can beat a certain enemy or escape their wrath in order to reach and unlock the next fast travel point. ONE TWO THREE FOUR

Radiant Historia: This came out this decade so that's recentish, yes? Although the game is not exactly Chrono Trigger with the time traveling shenanigans, it is a JRPG worth playing with a different, if a bit tedious, battle system. Stocke is also one of the coolest JRPG protagonists ever.

POKEMON: Pokemon is basically it's own genre, but yes, it is a JRPG that scratches all the JRPG related itches. There is a colorful cast of characters. A huge world to explore with many optional areas. A customizable team. Grinding. Everything you love about JRPGs is in Pokemon. HGSS and XY are among the best in the series and I would certainly recommend them to Pokenoobs.

DARK SOULS BABY: Yes, it's technically a JRPG. TECHNICALLY SO IT COUNTS.

And while NOT a JRPG, Undertale is certainly heavily inspired by them and I would recommend it to anyone.

JRPGs are certainly not in their golden age right now, but a lot of great ones are still being made. A lot of the things that made them appealing (amazing graphics, lengthy gameplay, extensive stories, limited competition from mainstream Western devs) don't really apply anymore, but it is still a genre I care about.
 

Kill3r7

Member
The market, at least in the west, moved more towards a mature audience. The plot, characters, gameplay and setting simply are not compatible with what most people want to play. Souls and to a certain extent DD being the exception.

Pokemon might as well be its own genre.
 

RDreamer

Member
That's an odd thing to dislike

It is a bit weird without a small caveat to it. I know I would personally say cell phones and cars probably do not belong in any game featuring medieval armor and swords. I respect a lot of JRPGs for trying crazy things but so far I really don't think FFXV's overall art style is anything other than a strange mess. What really doesn't belong, though, is probably the "American Express" advertisements in a world that doesn't have America, though.
 
Padding (RPGs do not need to be 50+ hours long), bad combat (ATB and turn-based combat systems are boring but action combat is hardly done well) as well as poor source materials for the world and characters (we've gone from Norse mythology, actual wars, etc. serving as inspiration to standard shonen anime being the main base).

You could extend these criticisms to most Japanese games, not just JRPGs. But I have very high hopes for NieR: Automata.
 

Korigama

Member
That's an odd thing to dislike
The belief that having anything more advanced than horses and buggies in a setting is even remotely related to SE's failings with being able to tell a proper story with FF (or that the things bothering them would miraculously be fixed regardless of the company or franchise if they ditched contemporary or high-tech settings for a return to traditional, high fantasy swords-and-sorcery) has always been flawed.
 

redcrayon

Member
Padding (RPGs do not need to be 50+ hours long), bad combat (ATB and turn-based combat systems are boring but action combat is hardly done well) as well as poor source materials for the world and characters (we've gone from Norse mythology, actual wars, etc. serving as inspiration to standard shonen anime being the main base).

You could extend these criticisms to most Japanese games, not just JRPGs. But I have very high hopes for NieR: Automata.
Combat is a personal preference. A good turn-based system relies upon setting up synergies and tailoring the specific actions of the party turn-by-turn to neutralise the enemies plans, inflict constant damage and keep the party standing. Meanwhile, a good action-based one gives satisfying feedback in a more immediate way, from exploiting enemy openings left by your actions/reactions to seeing npc actions unfold in battle that you programmed in advance. It's true that a bad turn-based system can be boring, but a bad action-based system can be button-mashy or use poor AI.

Ultimately it comes down to good and bad combat systems rather than one type being innately boring. I'm never bored during Etrian Odyssey's combat as you're often only a couple of moves away from a party wipe.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
BiowarePlotChart.png

You simply prefer Western tropes and cliches to Japanese ones. One isn't objectively better.

I disagree. I'm a way bigger JRPG fan than WRPG, but when it comes to handling romance, WRPG usually does it better. At least I think the WRPG's I've came across often featured male protagonists who aren't total pansies and actually do exhibit interest in females like a regular, single dude in real life. Romance that led to sex scenes were also sometimes made hilarious, like Iron Bull with male protag, which not only helps to improve characterisation of the character, but provides some fun humor.

100%

I still think if the Gooch was in charge we'd be getting stuff a lot more subdued and less flashy and tropey with narrative.

Gooch wasn't Shakespeare or anything, not saying 100% original or anything, but I surely bet his delivery and style would be so much better for the international audience than anything Square-Enix today could come up with.

I heard great things about Heavensward though. SE should really make the writer responsible for A Realm Reborn and Heavenwards work on a single-player RPG. It's Kazutoyo Maehiro I believe?
 

Mephala

Member
I honestly don't really even know what the otaku crowd pandering is. I suspect it is just what the younger males like in Japan as opposed to what the younger males liked in Japan 10 or more years ago.

In terms of influence I understand that Japan will generally be the priority when it comes to culture and audience favourism for the game's development. I just wish it was less Shonen like. I've accepted that this will not be as popular though with the exception of the games made by western developers that are in the early FF turn based style.

At the end of the day though it comes back to execution. Trails may be full of tropes but the writing and execution of these familiar characteristics was still a pleasure to experience.

I disagree. I'm a way bigger JRPG fan than WRPG, but when it comes to handling romance, WRPG usually does it better. At least I think the WRPG's I've came across often featured male protagonists who aren't total pansies and actually do exhibit interest in females like a regular, single dude in real life. Romance that led to sex scenes were also sometimes made hilarious, like Iron Bull with male protag, which not only helps to improve characterisation of the character, but provides some fun humor.

I think both have some bad and good romances. That said I think it comes back to the writing. Whether the male characters are confident or are "pansies" is also a preference and neither is really better than the other. Considering many JRPGs are coming of age stories that feature not exactly the most educated protagonists it would be odd to have them full of confidence and actively pursuing love interests... Then again, there are those types of JRPGs as well and I hate them. :\
 
Its actually really simple. Ask yourself this... Have you ever played a game where because of the story and emotion it evoked, it changed the way you viewed storytelling in games? It showed you the power of the medium in a sense. JRPGs were the first to do that for me and opened that door better than most genres. If you have experienced this there's little that needs to be said because you already know the potential.

Who knows what SNES/ PS1 games you played but yes the usual suspects were all great. You can find flaws and nitpick but if your willing to appreciate whats there its a spectacular achievement.

And I love Xenoblade so no argument there. There are still good JRPGs, but Im talking about the overall decline which stems from the lack of good stories (because all the other ingredients are more or less there).

Why do you think modern JRPGs are such a mess?

1. Yeah, it's happened. It's also not something that's that exclusive the jRPGs.Tbh, I used to get emotional with almost any game that I was putting enough hours into, because it sorta represents that period you were playing it

2. No, most of the "usual suspects" had a decent story at best, but that wasn't something exclusive to the genre nor was bad storytelling not common in it. Tbh, I don't have any sort of attachment when it comes to what genre of game that I play has good storytelling, nor do I think modern jrpgs with the same level of storytelling don't exist. It's something awesome to have in a game, but it's always been a pretty rare thing.

And if the story isn't too good, my general rule is to just keep it simple, with some nice moments, blockbuster action, or don't focus much on story at all, because when a game is written worse than most YA fantasy novels I'd rather have it not try to pretend it's doing something great.

I don't know how you can't look at something like FF7 or FF8 and see how it transitioned to XV now. I also still don't know why XV is suddenly going to be crap, so whatever.

Why do I think modern jrpgs are a mess? Tbh, my general rule of thumb whenever people talk about how the quality of anything has declined, games/shows/movies now only promote this or that and really crappy media becomes popular, I've always raised my eyebrows a little, because 90% of the time it's bs. Again, you haven't shown any sort of evidence for such a decline existing other than your own personal feelings.

jRPGs moved to handhelds, and the DS and PSP have a jRPG library that rival the SNES and PS1. Given the budgets and sales of the games, this evolution makes sense. As far as I care, there are still a bunch of jRPGs coming out that I enjoy, or want to get into. At the same time, because I didn't get into the genre till later, when I go back and play RPGs on older consoles, I get the benefit of picking from the best ones, just ignoring the crap that in the past couldn't get localizations or never picked up steam.

It's the same shit narrative that's always been popular: "when I was young everything was better". I see it with Pokemon too btw: kids that grew up with gen 3 and gen 4 will say the same sort of shit about the later gens and think the generations they grew up playing were the best.

I think it sucks that sometimes some really great jrpgs don't get the attention they deserve, but that's most games in general. Only think I honestly dislike about jrpgs today that I'm willing to put a blanket statement on is that I don't want them to transition to mobile (anymore)
 

ethomaz

Banned
We get some good games yet but it is way lower than what I expected.

The rush for more western-like, action and real-life graphics are killing big franchises... I do wonder what it will be after FFXV and that didn't look good :(
 

asagami_

Banned
I certainly don't think that Bioware games are the ultimate pinnacle of storytelling, but they are 100 times better than something like Final Fantasy XIII or even GAF darling Trails in the Sky.

For example, TitS's idea of romance is the "hot child friend whom the hero gradually realizes they have feelings for" and it fucking beats you over the head with it. There are probably 20 times where someone says something like "Estelle, Joshua is hot and he's not your real brother, you could totally bone him!" and probably another 20 scenes where Joshua gets attention from another girl and Estelle gets jealous and tries to understand these strange, wondrous feelings.

And it culminates with the classic "accidentally see each other naked. . . and they like what they see!!" ice-breaker.

(Disclaimer: I quit shortly after that point in the game so I don't know how it plays out from there, but what I saw was extremely cliched, adolescent, and otaku-y)

I would say that good WRPGs are roughly comparable to decent Hollywood movie writing, but they are like freaking Shakespeare in comparison to most JRPGs.

Estelle.. a hot child friend?

WHA-
 
Combat is a personal preference. A good turn-based system relies upon setting up synergies, counters, and tailoring the specific movement of the party turn-by-turn to neutralise the enemies plans, while a good action-based one is often relying on feedback, reactions and programming npc actions in advance. It's true that a bad turn-based system can be boring, but a bad action-based system can be button-mashy or use poor AI.

Ultimately it comes down to good and bad combat systems rather than one type being innately boring. I'm never bored during Etrian Odyssey's combat as you're often only a couple of moves away from a party wipe.

Yeah, we don't need to preface every argument with, "it's based on preferences" or stating, "in your opinion". Of course these claims are based on preferences and personal opinion.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs. Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely. I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun. And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over). Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.
 
Give me a break, don't even start with the "imperialism" crap. I've been a hardcore JRPG fan for over 20 years now. There are a lot of things I like about the genre:

-the striking visual design
-beautiful & catchy musical themes (whereas in most WRPGs the tunes are background/ambient music)
-fun, flashy, over-the-top battle systems
-generally aren't over-concerned with making everything realistic, not afraid to have some fun & silliness
-fantastical environments to explore rather than just forest/mountains/caves/etc
-focused, mostly linear, story-driven approach (whereas "go anywhere, do anything, choose your own path" seems to be the ultimate goal that WRPGs take)

I don't know how long you've been following JRPGs, but there was definitely a feeling in the late 90s/early 2000s that JRPGs were set to revolutionize storytelling in video games. Square-Enix was at the forefront; it was their explicitly stated goal to strengthen their ties to Hollywood. (And incidentally, why did The Spirits Within flop so bad? I would argue it was the bad JRPG-style writing and melodrama.)

Since then, aside from a couple notable exceptions (e.g. FF XII), JRPGs pretty much gave up and decided they would be content catering to the same shrinking niche audience of otaku. And apparently anybody who wants JRPG storytelling to be more than just the same recycled tropes and cliches must be an imperialist. As if there is something great about this tripe that we ignorant westerners just can't understand. (Whereas, in reality, it is my understanding that otaku crap is far more reviled and socially unacceptable in Japan than anywhere else).

So, whatever. I love JRPGs. I think their writing sucks. And I think that this is one area where WRPGs have upped their game while JRPGs regressed. Guess I am an imperialist!

You misunderstood my statement. I certainly have no interest in defending the storytelling in every JRPG. I wouldn't make games the first medium I go to for quality stories. But I have to raise my eyebrow at the insinuation that Japanese writers en masse are incapable of writing real adults, and they need Western writers to come in and teach them what real adults look like. Do you really think so little of the Japanese that you don't think anyone in the nation is capable of writing a character with a functioning brain?
 

120v

Member
i think the genre just became too niche. not saying the games need focus-tested space marines but outside of dedicated fans there's really no appeal outside of younger japanese players, if we're going by general jrpg output in 2016
 

UberTag

Member
We get some good games yet but it is way lower than what I expected.

The rush for more western-like, action and real-life graphics are killing big franchises... I do wonder what it will be after FFXV and that didn't look good :(
And yet the JRPGs that embrace their traditional roots and don't go all out for eye candy continue to rock with amazing storylines while incorporating modern refinements.

We have a new installment in a Kiseki franchise coming out tomorrow that almost no one will buy because it doesn't look "modern" enough and yet it will embody most of the great aspects about JRPGs that prompted us all to fall in love with the genre in the first place.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
I think both have some bad and good romances. That said I think it comes back to the writing. Whether the male characters are confident or are "pansies" is also a preference and neither is really better than the other. Considering many JRPGs are coming of age stories that feature not exactly the most educated protagonists it would be odd to have them full of confidence and actively pursuing love interests... Then again, there are those types of JRPGs as well and I hate them. :\
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I'm bored of JRPG keep relying on coming of age stories with male protagonists who are young, shy teen who have no interest of women. I know Japanese developers want to target their audience who are probably young, shy teens themselves, but once in a while when you get someone like Zidane or Yuri Hyuga, they really stand out in a good way.
 

asagami_

Banned
The person you quoted was clearly saying Joshua was the 'hot child friend'.

My bad, my reading understanding is terrible this morning. Still, how weird he mentions these "problems" and no word of Oliver, who is constantly filtering with any being who moves.

Yeah, we don't need to preface every argument with, "it's based on preferences" or stating, "in your opinion". Of course these claims are based on preferences and personal opinion.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs. Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely. I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun. And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over). Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.

Funny I am playing Devil Survivor 2, it's a SRPG and still a JRPG, whose battle system is inspired in the Press Turn from Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne.

How weird.
 
Yeah, we don't need to preface every argument with, "it's based on preferences" or stating, "in your opinion". Of course these claims are based on preferences and personal opinion.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs. Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely. I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun. And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over). Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.

Nope nope nope

3 Turn based systems I enjoy a ton:

1) Pokemon - play multiplayer, this system, with the switching added in, is surprisingly deep

2) Bravely Default - just mix and match classes and abilities as much as you can, because you want to try and break the game in as many ways as possible, and there are ALOT of ways you can break the game

3) Golden Sun series - Djinn being tied to stats and summons is a ton of fun, animations are awesome to watch, summons are god damn amazing, etc.
 

Mephala

Member
Maybe it comes down to the fact that I'm bored of JRPG keep relying on coming of age stories with male protagonists who are young, shy teen who have no interest of women. I know Japanese developers want to target their audience who are probably young, shy teens themselves, but once in a while when you get someone like Zidane or Yuri Hyuga, they really stand out in a good way.

This I can agree with 150%. I think however it is a disservice to games such as Trails though who had very good writing and localisation just because we are tired of these themes. Trails in particular was... Trying for me. It was such an incredibly slow burn that I almost put the game down multiple times. However I persevered because the writing had its own charm and the game was enjoyable despite being slow and predictable, then it sunk its hooks into me and I now have a copy on PSP, Vita and PC. >_>
 

thsantos

Member
Yeah, we don't need to preface every argument with, "it's based on preferences" or stating, "in your opinion". Of course these claims are based on preferences and personal opinion.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs. Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely. I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun. And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over). Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.

Well, I find such repetitive gameplay interesting and fun. As countless others do too. I think there's audience for both combat systems, and that's NOT the problem with JRPGS.
 

Mephala

Member
Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs. Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely. I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun. And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over). Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.

This is so wrong. :(

There are plenty of ways to add strategy to turn based combat. Majority of what you describe comes to balancing issues.
Further more part of the strategy sometimes comes not from just winning but being efficient about it. This is particularly true for games like Etrian Odyssey where you could have perma-death of your entire party and you don't want to backtrack endlessly when you run out of supplies before finishing the dungeon. Fighting FOEs also often require thought on strategy due to them often being quite a bit more powerful than you and you generally don't know what to expect from them the first time you fight them..
 
once in a while when you get someone like Zidane or Yuri Hyuga, they really stand out in a good way.
I haven't gotten to FFIX yet, but I just beat Shadow Hearts (the original) and can't wait to see how Yuri's changed in Covenant. The bad (and good) ending(s) seem undercooked, but over time he progresses from being an insecure, mentally vulnerable manchild, not fit to fight Roger Bacon, into an abrasive but headstrong and empathetic protector. Sadly there wasn't as much development for Alice—I find their relationship pretty boring. Yuri and Zhuzhen was interesting for a while, though, and the game has its strong character moments here and there.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Collapsing market coupled with the west going its own way in terms of technology and gaming taste just as a wider consumer base is needed.

-fewer consumers inspires companies to really play for a niche, which tends to mean otaku bait, i.e. plays to a consumer base that 'needs' certain tropes fulfilled, certain art decisions, etc.
-PS360 exacerbated this, pushing development cost and time past what Japan could afford. This pushes JRPG to handhelds for a second life, which have a dwindling, progressively less mainstream audience, and weak western support leading JRPG into the otaku bait trap.
-one way out is phones...but the facts of that market and whale hunting make otaku bait all the more important. Money shops in games tend to sell trashy shit. It is what sells in that small a quantity. There's no room for nuance.
-changing times, changing tastes. A lot of great anime is very outward looking, towards other cultures and other art, but anime is, as far as I can tell, much more internally directed now looking mostly at itself and its Japanese fans. That is to say, tropes are less innocent, and more calculated to hit that particular spot. This is a sign of decay in any medium.

...

Basically, I think the difference is between having anime tropes, but being an original product, and being ruled by them to the point all artistic integrity is obliterated. There is movement towards the latter in JRPG.
 

Korigama

Member
I haven't gotten to FFIX yet, but I just beat Shadow Hearts (the original) and can't wait to see how Yuri's changed in Covenant. The bad (and good) ending(s) seem undercooked, but over time he progresses from being an insecure, mentally vulnerable manchild, not fit to fight Roger Bacon, into an abrasive but headstrong and empathetic protector. Sadly there wasn't as much development for Alice—I find their relationship pretty boring. Yuri and Zhuzhen was interesting for a while, though, and the game has its strong character moments here and there.
For the record, the ending that Covenant follows from the first game is
the bad ending
, so that should give you some idea of what to expect.
 

zoukka

Member
JRPG's just aren't cool anymore in the eyes of the western audience. FFXV tries to remedy this with its "fantasy based on realism", but I dunno how well they will succeed. The main characters look quite off-putting to me.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
This I can agree with 150%. I think however it is a disservice to games such as Trails though who had very good writing and localisation just because we are tired of these themes. Trails in particular was... Trying for me. It was such an incredibly slow burn that I almost put the game down multiple times. However I persevered because the writing had its own charm and the game was enjoyable despite being slow and predictable, then it sunk its hooks into me and I now have a copy on PSP, Vita and PC. >_>

Oh don't get me wrong, Trails was good, quite good in fact. The romance between Estelle and Joshua were...alright, but I like Estelle and Joshua is tad bland, but fine. What I liked Trails the most is the amount of attention to detail inserted into its world, the NPC, the lore, and the characters are all generally likable and fun. Gameplay was pretty solid too, and great music, even the graphics are kinda endearing to me. Unfortunately I haven't got the chance to beat SC, but eventually I'd get back to it. My interest in Cold Steel is low though, really not a fan of how the game looks, and the fact that the game is about a group of students as main characters, which reminds me of Type-0, a game I really hated.

JRPG's just aren't cool anymore in the eyes of the western audience. FFXV tries to remedy this with its "fantasy based on realism", but I dunno how well they will succeed. The main characters look quite off-putting to me.

I don't know, there was a crazy amount of positive buzz with the announcement of Persona 5, FFVII remake, KH3 and DQXI.
 

Korigama

Member
Oh don't get me wrong, Trails was good, quite good in fact. The romance between Estelle and Joshua were...alright, but I like Estelle and Joshua is tad bland, but fine. What I liked Trails the most is the amount of attention to detail inserted into its world, the NPC, the lore, and the characters are all generally likable and fun. Gameplay was pretty solid too, and great music, even the graphics are kinda endearing to me. Unfortunately I haven't got the chance to beat SC, but eventually I'd get back to it. My interest in Cold Steel is low though, really not a fan of how the game looks, and the fact that the game is about a group of students as main characters, which reminds me of Type-0, a game I really hated.
Cold Steel is what Type-0 would be if it were made by people who were actually competent. Much like Trails in the Sky, it would be a disservice to dismiss it based on what's seen on the surface. Everything you mentioned that you liked about the attention to detail there applies just as much to it, as it is a continuation within the same world (with familiar faces factoring into the story as well).

Personally, I didn't care as much for the gameplay of FC, with the improvements to combat in CS having spoiled me.
 
I think that a lot of these JRPGs have in common are issues with presentational elements and pacing. Both of these aspects have a tendency to die about 3/4 into the game. This is why I think Xenoblade was so praised, the presentation and pacing was rather consistent and never really slowed down to a crawl.

As for writing, you run into issue with the idea of combat being necessary and gameplay elements needing to match the tone of the game. Games are currently about spatial works, and the writing thus also has to be about that idea. But it's absolutely hellish to actually write for every conceivable scenario and it's why most "well written games" are rare. In addition, this also means that the dev team as a whole is involved in the storytelling of a videogame. If one were to take away the game elements that game writers would have to account for, I think at they would be rather competent at story telling. This also why most of the games with the best stories are actually story generator games like Crusader Kings 2 and games that adhere well to the table top RPG concept.
 

Lothar

Banned
The same issues with JRPGs have been there since the PS1. People are far too willing to accept mindless gameplay and generic anime trope stories that don't do anything special. A "Tales Of" game can just go through the book of anime cliches and have easy mindless battles and people will call it good and recommend it.

If a game is pretty like Xenoblade, people will ignore the bland characters, cliche ridden story, poor AI, obtuse stat system, tedious gem crafting, and horrible side quest system.

FFXII can play itself 95% of the time without much fooling around with gambits, your characters will just easily crush all enemies by hitting them with the best swords, and people will call that good. It's not good.

I played SMT: Nocturne and Persona 4 recently; they have good gameplay and are trying to do something different with it's stories but it's very rare. It's always been rare.
 
The same issues with JRPGs have been there since the PS1. People are far too willing to accept mindless gameplay and generic anime trope stories that don't do anything special. A "Tales Of" game can just go through the book of anime cliches and have easy mindless battles and people will call it good and recommend it.

If a game is pretty like Xenoblade, people will ignore the bland characters, cliche ridden story, poor AI, obtuse stat system, tedious gem crafting, and horrible side quest system.

FFXII can play itself 95% of the time without much fooling around with gambits, your characters will just easily crush all enemies by hitting them with the best swords, and people will call that good. It's not good.

I played SMT: Nocturne and Persona 4 recently; they have good gameplay and are trying to do something different with it's stories but it's very rare. It's always been rare.

Persona 3 and 4: horrendous pacing, packed full of those pesky anime tropes everyone keeps complaining about, mind-numbingly repetitive calendar system and life sim elements, some of the most uninspired dungeon crawling I've ever seen.

The fact that Persona is considered the best that this genre has to offer is kind of depressing. They're decent games that manage to sidestep any significant criticism of their very real faults due to competently written stories, waifus and style, while nearly every other JRPG is placed under a microscope.
 

casiopao

Member
I dislike most of the characters in Awakening and Fates largely because of how ridiculously easy they would just fall in love with other characters and marry him/her. It completely breaks my immersion. I know the marriage and child unit was to serve as gameplay mechanics (in addition to appeal to fucking otakus), but it really affected the story/characters for me.

I much prefer the way older Fire Emblem develops the characters to end up becoming best platonic friends, but not to the point of falling in love and wedding, for crying out loud.

FE 7 and 8 all had marriage ending though?O_O
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
Cold Steel is what Type-0 would be if it were made by people who were actually competent. Much like Trails in the Sky, it would be a disservice to dismiss it based on what's seen on the surface. Everything you mentioned that you liked about the attention to detail there applies just as much to it, as it is a continuation within the same world (with familiar faces factoring into the story as well).

Personally, I didn't care as much for the gameplay of FC, with the improvements to combat in CS having spoiled me.
Yeah I know it's unfair to Cold Steel, and I have no doubt Falcom would write something that far surpasses the crap that was in Type-0. Maybe one day when I have more free time to play.
 

L95

Member
FE 7 and 8 all had marriage ending though?O_O

They did, but they weren't at the end of every pair, I liked how the GBA and Tellius FEs let characters have platonic paired endings and married paired endings depending on the specific pair itself.

The failed love ones are also fun.

They fell in love amidst conflict, but Priscilla was a noble, and Guy was but a mercenary nomad. Guy rode away before her tears could stain the earth, though her smile was the brightest thing he ever saw.

(A paired ending that ends sadly from FE7, idk if anyone cares, but spoilered it anyway)

After the war, Isadora went to Pherae, and Legault went to Bern. Though they traveled different paths, they stayed in each other’s hearts. They met again ten years later, on the battlefield as enemies.

I also like this paired ending, as it is not particularly marriage-y/romantic and kinda a downer.
 

Aiustis

Member
Persona 3 and 4: horrendous pacing, packed full of those pesky anime tropes everyone keeps complaining about, mind-numbingly repetitive calendar system and life sim elements, some of the most uninspired dungeon crawling I've ever seen.

The fact that Persona is considered the best that this genre has to offer is kind of depressing. They're decent games that manage to sidestep any significant criticism of their very real faults due to competently written stories, waifus and style, while nearly every other JRPG is placed under a microscope.


This so much.
 

morikaze

Banned
I prefer high fantasy compared to steampunk guys with zippers and belts everywhere.

Also, cell phones and cars don't belong in JRPGs.

I mostly agree with this. FFXXV will probably end up being a great game, but why can't SE make a modern FF that looks something like the CGI intro to Final Fantasy IV DS? I don't want Realistic Fashion Simulator Fantasy, I want Final Fantasy. There were certain parts of the Agni's philosophy tech demo that made me really excited for the future of FF.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
FE 7 and 8 all had marriage ending though?O_O

FE 9 and 10 had marriage ending too, so was older FE like 4, but they were never like one of the main feature/focus (okay, 4 does have marriage one of the key system, but it was handled in a more mature way back then). It's all changed with Awakening, IS found a new, lucrative market of gamers who likes shipping characters and making actual waifus ingame, and like wanking to scantily clad female characters.
 

Riposte

Member
Yeah, we don't need to preface every argument with, "it's based on preferences" or stating, "in your opinion". Of course these claims are based on preferences and personal opinion.

Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs. Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely. I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun. And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over). Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.

JRPGs will naturally be a step below SRPGs, since they lack or greatly simplify the movement/space factor (or the manual control of it). This is the most elegant and meaningful way to add complexity to a strategy game and is by no coincidence the most defining trait of this whole breed of gaming (even outside videogames, even just visually, e.g., "the grid"). However, what you are saying is flat out idiotic, which is why I'm only replying for other people's sake. What JRPGs have in their favor is that they choose to narrow their focus or use their abstraction to create systems that are, even if they are not ultimately deeper than a simple, good grid-based game like a Fire Emblem, rather unique, novel, or just overall very interesting to play around with. The very best example of this that comes to mind is something like The Last Remnant, where your parties placement in the 3D space is virtually out of your control, but the game instead chooses to focus on "engagements" and "inferences".

Two caveats here though: 1) in theory, most of these mechanics could be adapted to SRPGs to further increase their complexity, and, unsurprisingly, there are JRPGs which do not make a worthwhile attempt at replacing "space" with some other manner of complexity, 2) many do though, but their effort is cut short by an extraneous systems ("leveling" being by far the most detrimental trope in existence) or a simple lack of care put into difficulty to make these systems matter.

For 1), consider that, at the end of the day, SRPGs simply don't end up doing this to a significant enough degree, much like the best macro strategy games are also not doing what the best tactics games do; granted, it's really cool when it does happen, such as when the Devil Survivor series just takes the SMT combat system, smirks and all, and dumps it into a pretty good SRPG (and thus ends up creating arguably the best games in the whole meta-series). So for what it's worth, JRPGs remain an avenue for interesting mechanics, because both genres end up focusing on different things or at least do things differently.

For 2), we have to consider how much the "turn-based battle system" is really at fault for the overall game allowing players to overlevel or a careless approach to difficulty (not to say a game without challenge can said to have to good tactical combat overall), which is to say, there's no reason to believe that a "turn-based system" inherently suffer these problems and we can both imagine and find games which don't - sometimes by measuring to what extent they do, since leveling is so ubiquitous (it's not like SRPGs are any less affected, considering that there are people who see a game guilty of the worst JRPG flaws, Final Fantasy Tactics, as the best SRPG). Your basic description of "in JRPGs, you basically do these four things" is stupid because you "basically" do a handful of things in almost all games. The weight and meaning of your actions, thus the satisfaction you can derive from doing then, depends entirely on the context of the overall system. What kind of thought goes into healing, buffing, etc.? In a general scenario (perhaps, most commonly in a boss fight), what are your options and their consequences (including taking risks based on probabilities)? So it's simply a matter of a game having challenge, or enough challenge, to make your actions count. Something like the SMT series fits the bill often enough, but just as often suffers from a bad difficulty curve. We could think of even better examples, which maybe don't, but I want to stress that a bad difficulty curve (an extremely likely occurrence in all games with free-handed leveling systems, turn-based or not) is a separate issue from a style of combat being inherently flawed - or, hyperbolically, worthless, since apparently there has never been or nor never be a good turn-based combat system lol.

It's worth noting that "grinding being made a necessity" is almost never ever true; this is certainly not the case in games made in the last 20 years. Grinding is almost always nothing more than a fail-safe to catch bad players, a sliding difficulty that, while hurting the game's overall depth, allows everyone to beat the core game. JRPGs have hard bosses you can beat with smarts and good prep; these can be the satisfying fights that make combat systems matter. The issue with grinding is almost never that you have to do it, it's that you are allowed to do it (or you may do it by accident). If anything, it's a pretty sad thing when a player manages to get the impression that they have to grind; if there were no leveling mechanics in the first place, they would just understand "oh, I have to get better", like every other game.
 

L95

Member
FE 9 and 10 had marriage ending too, so was older FE like 4, but they were never like one of the main feature/focus (okay, 4 does have marriage one of the key system, but it was handled in a more mature way back then). It's all changed with Awakening, IS found a new, lucrative market of gamers who likes shipping characters and making actual waifus ingame, and like wanking to scantily clad female characters.

It frustrates me even more since Awakening and Fates' married endings are generic/copy paste, unlike the custom paired endings characters used to get

Shit, even some of Gaiden's endings had more customization than Fates' (Certian characters are already in love in the story, and if one dies the remaining character gets a different sadder ending, though it's technically not a paired ending)
 

Spman2099

Member
I think it is because most people weren't able to identify what made them great in the first place... The diminished levity in modern RPGs makes them towering, melodramatic monstrosities. There is an ebb and a flow to a well told story. Unfortunately, the people writing modern RPGs don't understand this. They think the more screaming, the more crying, the more fury the better.

So, the problem is a lack of understanding. An inability to address what makes for a great story.

Maybe you are playing the wrong JRPGs. Try Trails in the Sky.

Valid point. There are still some quality experiences to be found. Hilariously, a lot of people recommend Lost Odyssey, which is sort of the poster boy for everything that is wrong with the modern RPG. However, the Trails in the Sky games are legitimately pretty great.
 
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