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Why are modern JRPGs such a mess?

Persona 3 and 4: horrendous pacing, packed full of those pesky anime tropes everyone keeps complaining about, mind-numbingly repetitive calendar system and life sim elements, some of the most uninspired dungeon crawling I've ever seen.

The fact that Persona is considered the best that this genre has to offer is kind of depressing. They're decent games that manage to sidestep any significant criticism of their very real faults due to competently written stories, waifus and style, while nearly every other JRPG is placed under a microscope.

You make this aside as though a well-written story in a JRPG is a relatively unsubstantive component when JRPGs often place the greatest emphasis on their storytelling. I also disagree that Persona 3 and 4 don't face criticism for the poor dungeon crawling, they do, and Persona 5 has clearly been designed in response to these criticisms from fans.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs. Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely. I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun. And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over). Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.
It is the complete opposite.

Turn-based combat done right add strategy and depth in a way a single action battle system can't.

What you are trying to say is that play chess is repetitive and boring lol

It is awesome but maybe not to be every body.
 

Lindsay

Dot Hacked
Last JRPG I played and enjoyed was Child of Light.

A simple, clear story which doesn't try to be needlessly shocking or controversial
An enjoyable combat system with encounters designed and not procedurally/randomly generated
Decent soundtrack
Doesn't overstay it's welcome an is a decent length

The game has a few problems, such as ridiculous lack of move variety and a silly rhyming gimmick. But compared to the things it get's right more than makes up for it.

So then I ask: What other JRPG has come out in the last 3-5 years which I would enjoy?
I'd say Return to PopoloCrois on 3DS. It has random encounters but otherwise matches the rest of what ya put. It really is like a 16 bit rpg transplanted onto a newer system since the gameplay is straightforward but with added modern conveniences (easy zero cost warping around the world, skippable magic animations for heroes & baddies, good inventory system). Even the story & characters are shockingly straightforward!

See, they do characterize well and write why and how Estelle feels the way she does. You don't like the romance? That's fine.

Blaming the writing and storytelling by using the romance as an example? That's a huge disservice. How was anything about it "Otaku-y" (is this even a word?) ?
The romance sure sounds otaku-y. "bu--but it's okay to bang each other even though we grew up together under the same roof as a family, cause we're not actually blood related!" yikes. This threads making me faintly remember my time playing the first Trails game an why Cold Steels like a 100 times better!

Padding (RPGs do not need to be 50+ hours long)
I agree that padding things out with fillery quests/missions is kinda bad but they're ignorable for the most part. But what're these 50+ hour rpgs I'm missing out on? In the last 3 years I've run across 3 of 'em. Heck it took me more hours to beat the latest Brain Age game than it took to beat most rpgs I've played!
 
Also, cell phones and cars don't belong in JRPGs.

I'm pretty sure most people would call Parasite Eve, a game with cell phones and cars a JRPG. This is such an arbitrary distinction to make. I do agree that FF15 is looking problematic and unfocused story wise, I just rewatched Kingsglaive (usually because I read, play or watch pieces of media twice to determine what they do well and what they don't) and I found things to appreciate but it also cemented some of my issues with the movie that I hope don't transfer over.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Persona 3 and 4: horrendous pacing, packed full of those pesky anime tropes everyone keeps complaining about, mind-numbingly repetitive calendar system and life sim elements, some of the most uninspired dungeon crawling I've ever seen.

The fact that Persona is considered the best that this genre has to offer is kind of depressing. They're decent games that manage to sidestep any significant criticism of their very real faults due to competently written stories, waifus and style, while nearly every other JRPG is placed under a microscope.

I think Persona is a good case for being good, despite anime tropes and because of some underlying artistic integrity and good craftsmanship:

MoonFrog said:
Quality shines above genre in the best of stuff really. I had avoided Persona for a long time because of what it is described as, seeing waifu wars on the internet, etc. It seemed like it was just some self-insert high school harem game with a JRPG dungeon crawler attached. And at some level that is exactly what it is, but it is just better than it sounds. Particularly 4 in my experience, but I also liked 3 a lot and am thinking about digging deeper.

-The Wildcard ability plays off the creepiness of self-insert, especially coupled with those ridiculous text scenes on level-up. Yes, your character can have many faces. Yes, it is implied that he has somewhat ulterior motives in getting close to people. Yes, Igor and the finer workings of social links are unknown to your friends. Etc. I try to play the guy as a consistent character, but I like that darker undertone to the dubious venture.

-Characters are actually charming beyond being tropes and trying to be that niche type of girl you can't resist. Yes there is a lot of trope and yes the girls are falling over themselves to get in your pants, but that's just not all it is. For every conversation I just skipped through on a second playthrough, there were many more I actually wanted to see again.

-There is a high attention to detail and the towns, again particularly 4 for me, feel very well-realized. They do setting very well, which is a large part of the central concept: take the epic JRPG and fold it into a small, tight setting.

-The games have a lot of identity and strong visual and aural direction. Sometimes it is very very ‘teenage’ or ‘anime,’ like the Evoker in Persona 3, but the games just have a strong, consistent sense of style and you can feel the heart behind it. Clearly the games have an artistic direction that is more than just ‘paint by numbers for the fans’ even when it is obviously going for them. As is clear from how I keep coming back to this, it means a lot to me, especially when what is pulled off is, in the end, a good product.

-The battles are engaging, with an interesting approach to weaknesses that doesn't always translate well to the bosses (save those mid-bosses in Persona 3, but some of those guys were just obnoxious and too tightly tuned (at least on FES hard, especially for no party control).

Basically, the games are well-crafted and competent and that goes a long way. To be fair, I don't hate anime or dating in games outright. I don't want to present myself as more hostile than I am. It is just that I have a low tolerance for skin-flint anime/dating sim. Maybe it is cute-to-make-you-melt or stylish-as-fuck at the time, but it leaves a bad after-taste. Persona didn't do that to me.

An example of completely selling out to tropes would be, say, modern Fire Emblem, that is post-Awakening Fire Emblem. It is not like MotE, SnK, PoR, etc. aren't tropey--they most certainly are--but they are more than said tropes and have competent, respectable art/story/world design that takes itself seriously. Fast forward to Awakening and Fates, the plot is dumb as a rock and has next to no exposition to fill it out, no more map screens, no more trying to make the war campaigns credible, and instead everything is just incredibly 'character'-driven, episodic, fluff; children are part of a waifu game, over-powered (less so in Fates), and they are just stuffed into the story with no elegance (compare to SnK children actually having a respectable place in the story); characters and support are nigh entirely reduced to one-note otaku bait personalities with otaku bait designs and the army is turned into 'my harem,' with a self-insert character and the ability to have any of the units as wife or husband. It is a completely crass change; it is done entirely to find a new audience. Fates Conquest is a good game under that, so not all has been lost, but still.

To bring Persona back in, imagine FE had a waifu game and light pandering with, say, a bikini scene, but was largely more restrained and still had story ambitions, character ambitions, world ambitions, etc. and fulfilled them to some degree more than your typical game. I'd take that any day over the story/world/character style of FE today. It wouldn't even be a tough sell between two marginally different products. It'd be all the difference in the world. Give me an FE like that with the gameplay ambitions of Conquest and I'd be happy as opposed to disgruntled.

I think this gets to the heart of just what is wrong with so much JRPG these days. There is a crass lack of insightful authorship, with the pen being handed over to an incredibly niche audience in order to make money. That niche audience doesn't know the limits of good taste.
 
Xenoblade Chronicles X is one of my favorite JRPG's of all time, amazing game I love everything about it.

Similarly I was blown away by Tokyo Mirage, one of the best JRPG's in years

We just dont get many JRPG's developed to be sold worldwide any more since there isnt the demand or the publishers at least dont think there is demand.

Perhaps Final Fantasy has helped hasten the decline of the genre, since FF was the biggest name in the West before FFXIII.

I'd so love a new Grandia on modern consoles with Grandia III's combat system (best battle system of any turn based RPG IMO) with even more refinements
 

Red Frost

Banned
I wouldn't have hated the game as much if the writing had been halfway decent. Instead I got awful dialogue, annoying characters and an immensely stupid and nonsensical plot. :p

We'll have to agree to disagree. For me, it had relatable dialogue, great characters and (by the end) a fantastic plot with the best twist in gaming (provided you played it on DS). Only complaint is the pacing.
 
I can summarize the issue that I've researched here and other places:
  1. Japan's economy is in the toilet, so developers feel compelled to cater to niche, otaku audiences.
  2. Japan's population of young people with disposable time & income is declining.
  3. Japan's culture of "Play Young, Work Old" combined with #1 and #2 has drastically decreased their potential audience locally. Looking at the West, gaming is loved by all ages, especially adults. What little adult gaming demographic left there is deried as NEETs and Otaku, with more dissonant tastes compared to the West's. Just look at PSVita's catalogue and a lot of Japanese PC games.
  4. Mobile games. With games like Granblue Fantasy, Puzzle & Dragons and Rage of Bahamut, especially with Japan's population constantly on trains the go, mobile games offer more instant gratification, leading to lots of sequels to big franchises going mobile for the worse.
  5. Japanese developers have had a much harder time adapting to HD last gen. Remember how long it took FFXIII to release? Nintendo also discussed this issue in interviews, exacerbated with the Wii.
 

Red Frost

Banned
I hear you.

Sadly I didn't hate play it. I just gave up after I chose the right choices and got the bad ending because I hadn't gotten the arbitrary requirements before hand.

I think what annoyed me the most was having to redo puzzles, like, there's a reason VN's always put those kind of skips in.

There's a plot related reason why you CAN'T skip them.
 
Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.
I find it interesting that you say they can't make fights interesting in any turn based system. But then prove yourself wrong with this objectively false statement. Showing that when you encountered difficulty in any jrpg rather then try and master the systems you did the Bad Player Option of grinding.
 

dramatis

Member
It is the complete opposite.

Turn-based combat done right add strategy and depth in a way a single action battle system can't.

What you are trying to say is that play chess is repetitive and boring lol

It is awesome but maybe not to be every body.
Not correct.

An action battle system "done right" merely condenses the tactical decisions you have to make in battle into a shorter amount of time and adds the necessity of some dexterity. It does not, in any way, have less strategy and depth than a turn-based system.

I daresay real life team sports are certainly not lacking in strategy and depth compared to "turn-based combat done right".
 

Tain

Member
The appeal of traditional JRPGs makes a lot more sense to me if you consider that at their peak there weren't many other genres that married large, kinda-open worlds, dialogue-heavy plots, and high (for their time) production values.

Other genres have stepped in and do these things, today. They don't do the lightweight strategy game part, but that was always the weakest part of the traditional JRPG to me.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Also, turn-based can be quite awesome and tactical. It also tends to be better than action based for party play outside of multiplayer and old-school RTS-like CRPGs that are too hardcore for modern audiences.
 
The appeal of traditional JRPGs makes a lot more sense to me if you consider that at their peak there weren't many other genres that married large, kinda-open worlds, dialogue-heavy plots, and high (for their time) production values.

Other genres have stepped in and do these things, today. They don't do the lightweight strategy game part, but that was always the weakest part of the traditional JRPG to me.

One of JRPG's main appeals was originally its accessibility compared to Western RPGs. Ultima and Wizardry were known for having complex systems, open levels, and little in the way of direction. Dragon Quest took Ultima's top-down overworld-dungeon-town template and perspective and combined it with Wizardry's menu-based system, and the rest was history(Though honestly, I wish they took a bit more). Japan's culture prefers linear structure and clarity of objectives far more compared to the U.S.'s hunter and explorer tendencies. This also helps explain Metroid's lack of popularity over there.
 

petran79

Banned
The market, at least in the west, moved more towards a mature audience. The plot, characters, gameplay and setting simply are not compatible with what most people want to play. Souls and to a certain extent DD being the exception.

Pokemon might as well be its own genre.

Mascot platformers and JRPGs are not the in the spotlight anymore. This is why they were relegated to portable consoles, suited more for kiddy hands and eyes. Fighting games too have to be like Mortal Kombat in order to sell. Shmups are practically out of the big picture. Games like GTA are the focus, even among younger players which could have grown with JRPGs instead. This also had to do with the media industry change in Japan as mentioned.

But the bigger reason is that a new generation of players did not grow with Japanese games like in the previous decades, especially in the PS2 era. For consoles prior to that it was unthinkable that Western games would have the amount of popularity like today. Same goes also for the animated series they watched on TV. Eg a part of the success of Chrono Trigger was also due the character design, stemming from Dragon Ball and Dr Slump.

Now in order to understand JRPGs you have to watch the newer anime series. There is far greater disparity between viewers in that regard when compared to the past. Played few minutes of Persona 4 (undub version). No way this game would be for someone unfamiliar with anime, unlike the RPGs of old that did not focus on modern urban japanese settings.

The irony is that regarding gameplay, the lesser known games are more polished than in the previous decades. Because they build upon the positives of the previous games. While in the past, most developers either lacked the experience or had to build everything from scratch, so it was more difficult to reach a passable quality. Eg I cant believe how good some obscure and questionable otaku pandering anime fighters are. Same for JRPGs.

Problem is that gameplay is not the best way to introduce someone to the game. So they try to make the story to stand out but sometimes in questionable ways.

I played Sakura Taisen V recently. Overall good game and passable anime TV story. There was some small fanservice here and there but nothing beyond the usual stuff. Till the Gemini Sunrise chapter. When she was angry or upset during a battle, you advised her to
massage her breasts
in order to calm down. I laughed at first but then realized why such a game would not become as popular. Almost destroyed my enjoyment I had so far with the game. Like the MSG4
scrambled eggs and constant diarrhea scenes
.
 

Gibbles17

Member
As someone who counts JRPGs as their lifelong genre of choice, I find I'm losing the ability to stomach the dialogue in nearly every game since VA became a widespread thing.

I don't mind (and often really enjoy) the campy/tropey characters, the already mentioned "orphan with a nifty sword + ragtag group + save the world with friendship" plots, and the nonsensical character/world designs but 90% of the voice-acted dialogue elicits a level of cringe that is far and away the biggest detractor with respect to my enjoyment of the genre.

I legitimately feel FFXII is the only JRPG with good, VA'd dialogue. Hell, I can go back and play any of the older FFs without issue but I would guess hearing Umaro/Cait Sith/Quina speaking out loud would turn me off pretty quick. Playing through LR was especially rough, the way the characters wouldn't say anything of substance but instead would just reiterate what was going on with the plot was super unnatural and off-putting. Almost as if they were talking to themselves.
 

Lothar

Banned
What...? I don't even know how to respond to such an ignoramus.

:(

I don't understand why I would play a long epic game on a tiny screen when I have a big TV in the same room. I see portable gaming as when you have no other choice, like when you're traveling somewhere. In that case, it should be a short burst game.
 

Gaius

Banned
I haven't read the thread, just wanted to add my two cents to your OP question.


  • anime-look didn't translate well to ps3-onwards level of graphics
  • characters, storytelling and narrative of the world stopped in a time loop
  • we didn't stop in a time loop, all of us became smarter, stronger, better, we improved
Usually playing JRPG's in this day feels inherently outdated however you look at it. There is no interesting worlds to explore, no interesting multi-dimentional characters to get to know (all of them are some kind of stereotype that was established decades ago), and no real reason to fight for. I just don't understand these games anymore. To me, they look like they were made by extraterrestrial lifeforms who had no human interaction and seen them only on TV. Or maybe just a different culture. Either way it's sad, because i considered Final Fantasy VIII - FFXII one of my most liked games of PS1-2 generation.
 

DpadD

Banned
I don't know. I guess I don't play every game that's released, but the last 2 in recent memory that I played were stellar (DQIX and Dragons Dogma)

Then there's the newest 2 Fire Emblems which I became obsessed with, and Pokemon is still fun for me..

Oh shit, and Valkyrie Chronicles is god tier!

I haven't played the Souls games or Bloodborne but they are clearly universally loved and praised. Persona 4 Golden is very highly regarded. As are Xenoblade and XCX.

FFXV, DQXI, P5 and KHIII look absolutely amazing and unlike anything we've ever seen before in video games.

¯_(ツ)_/¯
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
:(

I don't understand why I would play a long epic game on a tiny screen when I have a big TV in the same room. I see portable gaming as when you have no other choice, like when you're traveling somewhere. In that case, it should be a short burst game.
Japanese gamers like to play on the go, so...
 

Kwame120

Banned
:(

I don't understand why I would play a long epic game on a tiny screen when I have a big TV in the same room. I see portable gaming as when you have no other choice, like when you're traveling somewhere. In that case, it should be a short burst game.
I can never fully understand this. People don't watch every film in the IMAX, hell people often watch blockbusters on a relatively tiny television screen. An argument that I can agree with is comfortability and hand size, which is why I don't play RPGs on mobile even though many have been ported there, but I personally believe that if people give portable gaming a chance they'll be able to appreciate that an epic adventure is entirely possible on a small screen. Though the size can take away from the "epic" feeling, as illustrated earlier there are benefits that cancel out or even outweigh this, such as the intimacy of playing a portable game due to the short distances. I'm wondering if you've ever tried altering your portable habits and seeing if it works (in which case it's just a personal preference I don't share), or if this is just due to the stigma of portables?

Edit for on topicness:

I think it depends on what games you play. I mainly play JRPGs but due to not playing often, I play barely any of the games regularly coming out, so perhaps a decline in quality is a trend I haven't noticed from not playing enough games to establish a trend - but conversely, not playing that many games leads to me being quite selective, and I've found that you can find impressive JRPGs today. Examples:

Xenoblade: One of the best games I've ever played, and it came out a generation ago - near the tail end of it to boot. Having played FF6, and recently, I can quite honestly say they're of similar quality in my mind. Xenoblade has a beautiful, varied and original world, fun combat - and though it's not deep, it's nature lends well to complexity in strategies and skill due to having to think strategically in real time.
Bravely Default & Bravely Second both have an incredible combat and job system; Etrian Odyssey Untold also has difficult and strategic battles. One thing to note is that you do not need a complicated battle system to have difficult battles, all I need to do is mention Dragon Quest I think.
In terms of great games for battle systems and story, you have practically anything Atlus produces (Devil Survivor, Persona, SMT...), and though I haven't played the most recent Atelier games, from Mana Khemia I have utmost faith in them maintaining charm, quirkiness and uniqueness. It's just a matter of where you look, honestly.
 

Gaius

Banned
I mean, this is bound to happen. It would be a pretty boring story if the goal at the end would be to save one village instead of the whole world.

Do you think that saving the world is the only good goal to have in a JRPG? Do you think this genre is defined by this goal? What about saving the village children (including your own) who were taken to be made slaves of. In the process you could crumble all four pillars of an empire which lasted for millennia. Or a journey in which you get to know yourself and your comrades by travelling through a different planet? I mean, you can make anything out of JRPG.

By the way, love LOD.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

trode.jpg
.

Even if they were hired help for DQ8, DQ8 is also easily in the top 3 of the best PS2 games period. I'm so happy, so so happy, that it's finally getting a HD rema-

I hope you aren't talking about the 3DS version.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
As someone who counts JRPGs as their lifelong genre of choice, I find I'm losing the ability to stomach the dialogue in nearly every game since VA became a widespread thing.

I don't mind (and often really enjoy) the campy/tropey characters, the already mentioned "orphan with a nifty sword + ragtag group + save the world with friendship" plots, and the nonsensical character/world designs but 90% of the voice-acted dialogue elicits a level of cringe that is far and away the biggest detractor with respect to my enjoyment of the genre.

I legitimately feel FFXII is the only JRPG with good, VA'd dialogue. Hell, I can go back and play any of the older FFs without issue but I would guess hearing Umaro/Cait Sith/Quina speaking out loud would turn me off pretty quick. Playing through LR was especially rough, the way the characters wouldn't say anything of substance but instead would just reiterate what was going on with the plot was super unnatural and off-putting. Almost as if they were talking to themselves.

Good/decent VA+dialogue in JRPG are very rare indeed. You're looking at FF12, FFT: WoTL, Xenoblade, DQ8, Lost Odyssey, Valkryra Chronicles, Persona 4 to some extent, maybe a couple more.
 

redcrayon

Member
Anyway, there's no such thing as a "good" turn-based system. There's little strategy or thought in turn-based games outside of SRPGs which are not JRPGs.
Not true, dungeon crawlers like Etrian Odyssey have some of the best turn-based combat around. The tension of having FOES gain a step closer for each combat round you might spend fighting another enemy is a great use of turn-based, and the party synergies are way too complex to work effectively in an action game. Turn-based games often have effects that last for a very short period of time, action goes lack the ability to micromanage such precise combat unless using a pause-to-issue-orders system, at which point it's not that far off turn-based anyway.

Mostly, surviving in a turn-based JRPG is an issue of maintaining buffs, removing status effects and healing party members routinely.
That applies as a basic rpg strategy to action games too, and then most RPGs stick extra stuff on top, whether it's added dodging etc in real time or making sure the entire party's actions happen in a specific order in turn-based. Sticking 'dodge when needed and use most effective melee attack' on the end would make a similar, simplified sweeping description of action games, and be as equally untrue.

I have no idea how anyone can find such repetitive gameplay interesting or fun.
There's hundreds of turn-based games including some of the best in the genre, and you have no idea how anyone can find any of them fun? Really? I mean, there's lots of game types I don't like, but I can at least see the appeal others see in them.


And turn-based combat is about as interactive and thrilling as watching flashy paint dry for 50 hours (seeing the same animations over and over).
Agree that's a fault of a slow, simplistic turn-based system. But not all turn-based combat is like that. Bravely Default, EO and various other dungeon crawlers add a fast-forward and repeat system to skip repetitive turns while also having very deep combat systems that reward careful party setups for more complex encounters. I've also played plenty of action RPGs that are just as repetitive where some actions are clearly better than others.

Then there are the designers who make some enemies and bosses so overpowered that grinding becomes a necessity, forcing the player to spend more time with their dull as dirt combat system.
Applies to all RPGs.

Generally, I prefer action combat when controlling a single character, but vastly prefer turn-based when leading a party. Otherwise I just get annoyed when allied NPCs mess up time-and-again, something I find particularly frustrating about action RPGs. I don't mind the ones like FFXII or Tales of Hearts where I can set npc tactics, but even then I'm trying to guess their priorities ahead of time. I'd rather just have direct control over everyone, but to each their own.
 

JCX

Member
Whenever this thread pops up, it's very clear who followed the genre to handhelds and who did not. If you refuse to play handhelds because reasons, that's fine, but don't complain about the games going away, because they haven't. It reeks of the type of port begging usually reserved for Nintendo threads.
 

Cyrano

Member
JRPGs will naturally be a step below SRPGs, since they lack or greatly simplify the movement/space factor (or the manual control of it). This is the most elegant and meaningful way to add complexity to a strategy game and is by no coincidence the most defining trait of this whole breed of gaming (even outside videogames, even just visually, e.g., "the grid"). However, what you are saying is flat out idiotic, which is why I'm only replying for other people's sake. What JRPGs have in their favor is that they choose to narrow their focus or use their abstraction to create systems that are, even if they are not ultimately deeper than a simple, good grid-based game like a Fire Emblem, rather unique, novel, or just overall very interesting to play around with. The very best example of this that comes to mind is something like The Last Remnant, where your parties placement in the 3D space is virtually out of your control, but the game instead chooses to focus on "engagements" and "inferences".

Two caveats here though: 1) in theory, most of these mechanics could be adapted to SRPGs to further increase their complexity, and, unsurprisingly, there are JRPGs which do not make a worthwhile attempt at replacing "space" with some other manner of complexity, 2) many do though, but their effort is cut short by an extraneous systems ("leveling" being by far the most detrimental trope in existence) or a simple lack of care put into difficulty to make these systems matter.

For 1), consider that, at the end of the day, SRPGs simply don't end up doing this to a significant enough degree, much like the best macro strategy games are also not doing what the best tactics games do; granted, it's really cool when it does happen, such as when the Devil Survivor series just takes the SMT combat system, smirks and all, and dumps it into a pretty good SRPG (and thus ends up creating arguably the best games in the whole meta-series). So for what it's worth, JRPGs remain an avenue for interesting mechanics, because both genres end up focusing on different things or at least do things differently.

For 2), we have to consider how much the "turn-based battle system" is really at fault for the overall game allowing players to overlevel or a careless approach to difficulty (not to say a game without challenge can said to have to good tactical combat overall), which is to say, there's no reason to believe that a "turn-based system" inherently suffer these problems and we can both imagine and find games which don't - sometimes by measuring to what extent they do, since leveling is so ubiquitous (it's not like SRPGs are any less affected, considering that there are people who see a game guilty of the worst JRPG flaws, Final Fantasy Tactics, as the best SRPG). Your basic description of "in JRPGs, you basically do these four things" is stupid because you "basically" do a handful of things in almost all games. The weight and meaning of your actions, thus the satisfaction you can derive from doing then, depends entirely on the context of the overall system. What kind of thought goes into healing, buffing, etc.? In a general scenario (perhaps, most commonly in a boss fight), what are your options and their consequences (including taking risks based on probabilities)? So it's simply a matter of a game having challenge, or enough challenge, to make your actions count. Something like the SMT series fits the bill often enough, but just as often suffers from a bad difficulty curve. We could think of even better examples, which maybe don't, but I want to stress that a bad difficulty curve (an extremely likely occurrence in all games with free-handed leveling systems, turn-based or not) is a separate issue from a style of combat being inherently flawed - or, hyperbolically, worthless, since apparently there has never been or nor never be a good turn-based combat system lol.

It's worth noting that "grinding being made a necessity" is almost never ever true; this is certainly not the case in games made in the last 20 years. Grinding is almost always nothing more than a fail-safe to catch bad players, a sliding difficulty that, while hurting the game's overall depth, allows everyone to beat the core game. JRPGs have hard bosses you can beat with smarts and good prep; these can be the satisfying fights that make combat systems matter. The issue with grinding is almost never that you have to do it, it's that you are allowed to do it (or you may do it by accident). If anything, it's a pretty sad thing when a player manages to get the impression that they have to grind; if there were no leveling mechanics in the first place, they would just understand "oh, I have to get better", like every other game.
I dunno, Earthbound and Undertale have pretty good turn-based "combat". That said, I would say the reason jRPGs are successful has infinitely more to do with their narrative complexity and the integration of that narrative complexity into the encounter system, however that plays out. If I want a game with good combat or tactics, I'm always going to play Dark Souls or a grand strategy game like Twilight Imperium, respectively. Still, I don't consider either of those to be the only necessary factor to a game I would consider "great" but rather good. What makes a single-player game interesting is the integration of writing with play. In this sense, turn-based is a much better delivery method than games that are entirely or mostly active. Much like a TV series, particularly with longer games, the writing is the thread that ties everything into something purposeful rather than incidental. Combat becomes part of the story and is not just a reason to follow rules or break up the exploration. In multiplayer games, interaction with people and how they manipulate the rules makes up the core of the play and is what I think you're most interested in. Just reading your analysis makes me think you would tend to prefer board games or multiplayer games with lots of opportunities for rule manipulation (MMORPGs probably hold little interest, but something like EVE or Starcraft sounds like it's up your alley). Games that are mostly or entirely rule-based are always going to be better suited to multiplayer because there is only a very specific personality (speedrunners, for example) that enjoy those types of games (and speedrunners have taken those games and essentially made them multiplayer via online record-keeping).
 

RPGam3r

Member
Whenever this thread pops up, it's very clear who followed the genre to handhelds and who did not. If you refuse to play handhelds because reasons, that's fine, but don't complain about the games going away, because they haven't. It reeks of the type of port begging usually reserved for Nintendo threads.

Some people don't like handhelds. Even if look over my handheld collect I don't think it competes with JRPG back in the day on consoles.

I think watching JRPG fall from their height on consoles and be down about it is something people can "complain" about.
 

redcrayon

Member
Not correct.

An action battle system "done right" merely condenses the tactical decisions you have to make in battle into a shorter amount of time and adds the necessity of some dexterity. It does not, in any way, have less strategy and depth than a turn-based system.

I daresay real life team sports are certainly not lacking in strategy and depth compared to "turn-based combat done right".
It might not have my less strategy or depth, but it's a different kind of strategy due to the limited time available for inputs and limited control over other party members. You gain the required dexterity and time pressure, but the trade off is the loss of satisfaction of putting together precise team synergies over multiple turns, knowing that you haven't had to compromise by hoping the NPCs get it right. Both have a different appeal to me, and achieve it with varying levels of success, depending on the game.
 
Do you think that saving the world is the only good goal to have in a JRPG? Do you think this genre is defined by this goal? What about saving the village children (including your own) who were taken to be made slaves of. In the process you could crumble all four pillars of an empire which lasted for millennia. Or a journey in which you get to know yourself and your comrades by travelling through a different planet? I mean, you can make anything out of JRPG.

By the way, love LOD.
I think defeating x empire, saving the world, or overthrowing x thing because they are bad will be it though. Or some hybrid version. A lot of them start for different reasons that lead to stopping the main guy, I don't find that an issue. You have to raise the stakes which ends up being something along those lines.
 

IvorB

Member
Well Souls series is pretty great, Nioh is shaping up awesome too and Dragon's Dogma is amazing. But I guess OP wants traditional turn-based games.
 

Garlador

Member
Eh. I've had a blast playing Xenoblade, The Last Story, Lost Odyssey, Trails in the Sky, Fire Emblem Awakening, Bravely Default, Final Fantasy XIV, Dark Souls, I Am Setsuna, and dipping into the exhaustive backlog of games I missed on DS (The World Ends With You, Radiant Historia, Final Fantasy III, Dragon Quest IX).

I'm also looking forward to all the JRPGs on the horizon, from Persona 5 to Final Fantasy XV and VII Remake to Nier 2.
 

IvorB

Member
Souls games don't even resemble traditional action-based JRPG.

They're still RPGs though no matter how you want to slice it. Maybe JRPGs have moved on and I personally feel they are better for it. Some of the very best RPGs at the moment are coming out of Japan.
 
You can kinda get the gist of what I'm getting at.
Why have JRPGs stagnated so much? They fell into a hole of arbitrary systems, fighting mechanics, and tech trees.The plot is generally the same across most games with some variances of direction. Amnesia-ridden, fatherless, sword wielding guy going on adventures for some sort of higher meaning. A lead female who is a spell caster and love interest to the dude, follows him with a ragtag group of outcasts hope to save humanity. Is that all these games strive for? Probably the most unique JRPGs I've played in the past 10 years have been The World Ends with You and Persona 4. Now these games still follow some standard JRPG conventions, but at least they tried for something unique.

Have you played the following games:

Suikoden I - III and V
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne
Persona 2 IS, and EP
Digital Devil Saga
Valkyrie Profile 1 and 2
Breath of Fire V: Dragon Quarter
Ys series
Radiant Historia

?

Rogue Galaxy has always sucked. It was hyped to high heaven pre-release and it was never good.
 
They haven't evolved since the PSone days.

Something something state of anime today too, but maybe I'm just crotchety.

Are JRPGs still pulling the same numbers they were in the PSone days? Maybe that's the problem in this day and age. The audience isn't expanding with the budget.

Uh. PS2 jrpgs are the height of the genre in terms of mechanic evolution. There is nothing on the ps1 like Valkyrie Profile 2 or Dragon Quarter.

Even DS has games like The World Ends With You and Radiant Historia.

The problem these days is that most jrpgs are safe. There used to be a lot of game series that would push the envelope and be creative about stuff. But a lot of those series are long gone, or they were one offs like TWEWY. Today jrpgs are kind of stuck in a nostalgia machine with games like Bravely Default and I am Setsuna. There's nothing really pushing the envelope like last gens because these games are more of a risk now.
 

Lynx_7

Member
Not correct.

An action battle system "done right" merely condenses the tactical decisions you have to make in battle into a shorter amount of time and adds the necessity of some dexterity. It does not, in any way, have less strategy and depth than a turn-based system.

I daresay real life team sports are certainly not lacking in strategy and depth compared to "turn-based combat done right".

Can you give me an example of the sort of action battle system done right that does everything a turn-based system does like you're talking about? Having gone through the Soulsborne series which is lauded, among many other things, for its battle system, there's certainly some amount of strategy as far as positioning, timing, taking advantage of the terrain, knowing when to lure enemies and learning enemy/boss patterns and so on, but it's really not the same kind of strategies I have to devise and apply in games like SMT, Etrian Odyssey, Final Fantasy V, some Dragon Quests, BD and etc where I have to take into account party composition and which roles each member will fulfil (which includes knowing which jobs or party members are better suited to a specific boss), managing the right balance between buffs, healing and attacking, and so on. I've yet to play an action game where you feel as in control of your full party as you are in a turn-based system. That's not even taking SRPGs into account, where there's also positioning involved.

I see both of them as equally valid but they lend themselves to very different approaches regarding strategy and gameplay styles. One can't replace the other, as much as some people would have everyone believe turn based systems are somehow inherently inferior (Im' not saying you did, btw). Playing something like Dragon's Dogma certainly doesn't scratch my itch for a good DQ or FE and vice-versa.
 
Two caveats here though: 1) in theory, most of these mechanics could be adapted to SRPGs to further increase their complexity, and, unsurprisingly, there are JRPGs which do not make a worthwhile attempt at replacing "space" with some other manner of complexity

Well this is silly. You're babbling about mechanics in JRPGs which can make SRPGs more complex even though that's completely irrelevant to what I said.

FYI, it's probably not a good idea to throw around personal insults when you can't even recognize relevant arguments.

Your basic description of "in JRPGs, you basically do these four things" is stupid because you "basically" do a handful of things in almost all games. The weight and meaning of your actions, thus the satisfaction you can derive from doing then, depends entirely on the context of the overall system. What kind of thought goes into healing, buffing, etc.? In a general scenario (perhaps, most commonly in a boss fight), what are your options and their consequences (including taking risks based on probabilities)?

So you don't understand why I mentioned the repetition in JRPG battles either. Not surprising. I mentioned it because repetitive actions are not thoughtful nor strategic -- they're habitual. Although you can make that same argument with plenty of strategy and tactics RPGs, that players are acting simply out of habit rather than consciously thinking about what's happening, the developers at least try to use different objectives and map designs to encourage actual thought.

And JRPGs rarely give you probability based information to make any sort of decision (e.g. the probability that an attack will connect or the probability of a critical attack occurring). I'm not sure what probabilities you think you're basing your decisions on.

It's worth noting that "grinding being made a necessity" is almost never ever true; this is certainly not the case in games made in the last 20 years. Grinding is almost always nothing more than a fail-safe to catch bad players, a sliding difficulty that, while hurting the game's overall depth, allows everyone to beat the core game. JRPGs have hard bosses you can beat with smarts and good prep; these can be the satisfying fights that make combat systems matter. The issue with grinding is almost never that you have to do it, it's that you are allowed to do it (or you may do it by accident). If anything, it's a pretty sad thing when a player manages to get the impression that they have to grind; if there were no leveling mechanics in the first place, they would just understand "oh, I have to get better", like every other game.

There are plenty of bosses, especially final bosses, which are intentionally designed to be significantly harder than prior bosses/enemies with movesets which are, by all accounts, overpowered (sweeping but severely harmful first move status effects that are only guaranteed to be avoided if certain items are equipped).

While you can say, oh, but the fact that you can find these items so you do not have to grind invalidates your point (even though the equipment is sometimes found through some extraneous side quest), the fact that you have to go through some roundabout manner to deal with ridiculous difficulty jumps is really just another way of designers trying to add length to the game. In that manner, it's no different than grinding.

It is the complete opposite.

Turn-based combat done right add strategy and depth in a way a single action battle system can't.

What you are trying to say is that play chess is repetitive and boring lol

It is awesome but maybe not to be every body.

You're making a comparison that I never made. I never said that action RPGs add strategy and depth in any way. I'm saying that the strategy that people attribute to turn-based JRPGs is overstated: there's very little strategy in the battles.

I agree that padding things out with fillery quests/missions is kinda bad but they're ignorable for the most part. But what're these 50+ hour rpgs I'm missing out on? In the last 3 years I've run across 3 of 'em. Heck it took me more hours to beat the latest Brain Age game than it took to beat most rpgs I've played!

Off the top of my head: Persona games, Bravely Default, FFXIII, Ni no Kuni is around that mark, SMTIV is around that mark, Valkyrie Profile 2 is pretty close to that, etc.
 

Shahed

Member
Personally I hate the fact I needed a handheld to play them both this generation and the last one. While I can play on them, i'd much rather be playing on a TV with a controller. They're uncomfortable in my hands, have tiny screens and poor sound and are difficult to find a comfortable position play on for more than 15 minutes so I'm almost tossing and turning like I'm trying to sleep or something. There are some pretty good ones there like Radiant Historia, the Trails/Kiseki series and a few others, but playing them on handhelds instead of consoles just makes them worse. Games such as Chrono Trigger/Cross, Final Fantasy VI/VII, Xengears, Skies of Arcadia and Valkyrie Profile are 10/10's in my eyes. Playing them on handhelds would automatically make them 8/10's due to the annoyance of dealing with a portable.

Since the last generation the games seemed to double down on the niche otaku, or play it too safe in general that they felt stale. That's why I was so happy with Xenoblade. Bar the awful sidequest system, here was finally another console style RPG with proper scope and ambition in so many ways. That's why I'll also kind of forgive Ni No Kuni's kind of overly simplistic battle system since it hit so many other good notes. But that's like 2 games in 10 years. There's just not enough out there. That sense of wonder and adventure, that you are starting an epic journey of some kind. It's just not there anymore.
 
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