It is not native spatial 4K rendering.
They're rendering 2x1080p, and guessing the other 2x1080p pixels based on the real spatial samples. It's literally upscaling.
Your comment don't even make sense. how is it not a more efficient way to get 4K when they are achieving 4K when everyone said they couldn't?
They added dedicated checkerboard rendering hardware to the GPU. Your use of made-up term "uprendering" is still silly, but even if you had the details wrong you were right that Sony had a high quality / low resource way to hit 4K. They did it primarily via hardware and not software like you speculated, but hey at least you nailed the ease of it part.
Which, incidentally, makes the comment in the leaked dev docs about developers not being able to hit 1800p checkerboard (900p base image) to contact Sony make a lot more sense. It's calling out incompetent developers lol, because any developer should be able to hit 900p on the OG PS4.
The checkerboard technique by itself is, at least if we're on the semantic train where upscaling and upsampling are equivalent.It's not upscaling
They added dedicated checkerboard rendering hardware to the GPU. Your use of made-up term "uprendering" is still silly, but even if you had the details wrong you were right that Sony had a high quality / low resource way to hit 4K. They did it primarily via hardware and not software like you speculated, but hey at least you nailed the ease of it part.
Which, incidentally, makes the comment in the leaked dev docs about developers not being able to hit 1800p checkerboard (900p base image) to contact Sony make a lot more sense. It's calling out incompetent developers lol, because any developer should be able to hit 900p on the OG PS4.
Why is it silly when the patent actually uses it?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160005344A1/en
A base of 2x1080p, actually.
So is it sort of like "upscaling" that Xbox does to output everything at 1080p? If so how in particular is this any different /better /worse?In a rough, very small nutshell.
Render the red pixels.
Calculate everything else.
Yep,its blast processing all over again.uPRendering
The checkerboard pattern and upsample filter produces pretty good results and should play pretty nicely with temporal AA. But, yes: it's rendering fewer unique new pixels each frame, and (all other things being equal) will not produce results as good as full spatial 4K rendering.So is it sort of like "upscaling" that Xbox does to output everything at 1080p? If so how in particular is this any different /better /worse?
I think there's a conceptual mix-up here; if they were setting 1800p as a minimum and checkerboard rendering was used, that would be a post-filter value, and would imply a spatial res of 2x900p. Much like how, starting from 2x1080p, you can upscample into 2160p.To put a but more color on that, from the leaked dev docs they seem to want at least 1800p - at least if you can't reach that, they were asking you to contact them. 1800p is 2.5x 1080p.
This is the tech Quantum Break used to get "1080p", correct?
I believe so.
And also Rainbow 6 seige as well I think.
The checkerboard pattern and upsample filter produces pretty good results and should play pretty nicely with temporal AA. But fundamentally, yes: it's spatially rendering fewer pixels, and (all other things being equal) will not produce results as good as rendering a full 4K image.
I think there's a conceptual mix-up here; if they were setting 1800p as a minimum, that would be a post-filter value, and would imply a spatial res of 2x900p. Much like how, starting from 2x1080p, you can upscample into 2160p.
Every frame is rendered at half res. What would you call that?It's not upscaling
So is it sort of like "upscaling" that Xbox does to output everything at 1080p? If so how in particular is this any different /better /worse?
That would result in a post-filter resolution of around 40% higher than 4K, which would be a somewhat strange arbitrary line to draw. We're also currently being told that that's not what games are actually doing.I assume similar recommendations apply about base res for checkerboard rendering - e.g something like a unique 1800p worth of new pixels per frame in a checkerboard pattern.
It doesn't have to. Part of the excitement is a spatial scaling technique that gets pretty good results by itself. The checkerboard approach should play nicely with temporal reprojection, however.This reprojects samples from one frame to another in the 'holes' of the alternate checkerboard pattern.
They're rendering 2x1080p, and guessing the other 2x1080p pixels based on the real spatial samples. It's literally upscaling.
Every frame is rendered at half res. What would you call that?
I hope every PS4 fan who flamed all the xbox games using similar techniques and not being true 1080p boycott PS4 Pro.
The misleading thing about calling it upscaling is that this technique results in true 4K rendering when things are still, since all of the pixels will actually come from rendering in that case. Spatial upscaling can never create additional detail, it just spreads the existing detail over more pixels. In this technique, the additional detail is actually rendered, but it takes two frames to get there. When there is motion, the previous set of pixels will be inaccurate and have to be approximated, and that is more like upscaling (although the checkerboard and temporal aspects will make the imperfections look quite different than with normal, spatial-only, upscaling).
"Uprendering" may be a little better, since people will not automatically believe they understand what it means, while "upscaling" will make them think they understand when they actually don't. But it's hardly a self-explanatory term, either. You'd need to say something like "checkerboard rendering with temporal interpolation" to really convey what's happening.
Different tech probably but that eshift is a thing of beauty, I've seen it side by side with a real 4K and it's wonderful. Too laggy for me for gaming though so I went with the Sony hw45So is this like the "4k e-shift" my jvc projector does?
The misleading thing about calling it upscaling is that this technique results in true 4K rendering when things are still, since all of the pixels will actually come from rendering in that case.
There's a separate thread discussing it. Rainbow 6, qb potentially use it or similar it seems. So yes it IS an existing thing and it has been slated before on xb1.But it's not the same method, it's not the same technique. Get Reggie in here to explain it to you.
Yes.Wait a minute, how is that possible exactly?
Is it taking alternately checkered frames and combining them?
But it's not the same method, it's not the same technique. Get Reggie in here to explain it to you.
Wait a minute, how is that possible exactly?
Is it taking alternately checkered frames and combining them?
What I was referring to as upscaling is just the sample pattern and spatial upsampling technique. Temporal reprojection can be used to help fill in the gaps, but that's not specific to checkerboard patterns, and I'd be surprised if it's part of the hardware support.The misleading thing about calling it upscaling is that this technique results in true 4K rendering when things are still, since all of the pixels will actually come from rendering in that case. Spatial upscaling can never create additional detail, it just spreads the existing detail over more pixels. In this technique, the additional detail is actually rendered, but it takes two frames to get there. When there is motion, the previous set of pixels will be inaccurate and have to be approximated, and that is more like upscaling (although the checkerboard and temporal aspects will make the imperfections look quite different than with normal, spatial-only, upscaling).
"Uprendering" may be a little better, since people will not automatically believe they understand what it means, while "upscaling" will make them think they understand when they actually don't. But it's hardly a self-explanatory term, either. You'd need to say something like "checkerboard rendering with temporal interpolation/reprojection" to really convey what's happening.
Where did you get that information from?Yes.
In a rough, very small nutshell.
Render the red pixels.
Calculate everything else.
It's still not native 4k either. There will be artefacts.
Faux KuPRendering
It's still not native 4k either. There will be artefacts.
We definitely need a new term ��
It's the feel of 4K.
If you're not going to be content until all games are rendered in native 4k then feel free sit on the bench for the next several years. Just try not to pretend like this checkerboard 4k business is akin to a console not being able to hit 1080 in 2014 and beyond. That's ridiculous.
That's how one does checkered rendering. If you don't invert the checker pattern each frame you get no temporal benefits, reprojection or not.Where did you get that information from?
.
It's not about what a specific console can do at a given year, it's about people looking at an image and judging it from there instead of reading stuff on the internet and finding out the image wasn't native and using it as shit flinging ammo.
I like "the feel of 4k".
I hope every PS4 fan who flamed all the xbox games using similar techniques and not being true 1080p boycott PS4 Pro.
I like "the feel of 4k".
But where are you getting that informatoin beyond trying to deduce from what other techniques that are not this one?That's how one does checkered rendering. If you don't invert the checker pattern each frame you get no temporal benefits, reprojection or not.
This is the tech Quantum Break used to get "1080p", correct?
So is it sort of like "upscaling" that Xbox does to output everything at 1080p? If so how in particular is this any different /better /worse?
Is that your Last Word on the subject?I hope every PS4 fan who flamed all the xbox games using similar techniques and not being true 1080p boycott PS4 Pro.
Truth be told, on a 4K TV, these techniques are pretty great. I can only run older PC games in native 4K on my PC, for instance - this type of rendering would be an amazing addition for PC gamers as well if more titles used similar techniques.I like "the feel of 4k".
But I guess the compensating techniques to help with perception here would be things like motion blur etc.
QB ended up having garbage IQ so let's hope not I guess?
QB ended up having garbage IQ so let's hope not I guess?
You have a good understanding of how a temporal technique could leverage offset / jittered / alternated samples to reconstruct a higher spatial resolution image over a step of time (over multiple / 2 frames), but the thing is - and as I mention above - I have yet to see any description from Sony that describes that this is what the hardware scaler is doing..
This is my basic MS Paint understanding. Correct me if this is off base:
Resolution is about information in the image.
In traditional upscaling, you have a unique 'x' amount of information in the source frame. The output still has the same amount of information.
In these newer techniques, you're taking your 'x' amount of information from the current frame, and some portion of 'x' from prior frames (in the above, the orange pixels are meant to represent usable samples in the current frame, black ones which are not valid anymore or cannot be mashed into being valid).
So basically with the newer techniques, you should have more unique information in the final image compared to a traditional upscale, and so should get closer to your target (native) amount of unique info in the final frame.
Indeed in the perfect case of a still scene you could reach the same amount of information in the final image as a native render. tldr - the diff between a reference native frame and a frame using these kinds of techniques should be size-ably smaller than in a simple traditional upscale, the size of the diff scaling with the motion speed in the scene.
Devs are likely going to be using temporal reprojection in this manner, but it's not what the DF article is talking about it. They're describing a specific way of taking a checkerboard of 2x2 squares - that is, the individual squares on the checkerboard are 2 pixels wide, rather than the checkerboard pattern skipping every other pixel - and extrapolating the data from the rendered 2x2 squares into the unrendered 2x2 squares, independent of any temporal sampling.This is my basic MS Paint understanding. Correct me if this is off base:
Devs are likely going to be using temporal reprojection in this manner, but it's not what the DF article is talking about it. They're describing a specific way of taking a checkerboard of 2x2 squares - that is, the individual squares on the checkerboard are 2 pixels wide, rather than the checkerboard pattern skipping every other pixel - and extrapolating the data from the rendered 2x2 squares into the unrendered 2x2 squares, independent of any temporal sampling.