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PS4 Pro provides checkerboard rendering in hardware - no cost to devs

dr_rus

Member
The real puzzle here is what kind of h/w support for res reconstruction they are talking about as for it to be effective it should have access to basic frame buffer components and thus it must basically be a shader core. Having a separate shader core or even a CU reserved for this seems like a total waste as some games might opt to not use it and implement their own solution instead - this h/w will be blocked for them in that case which is pretty stupid. I wonder if by h/w support they mean something in the ROPs or geometry engines which would help with such pixel interpolation?
 

thelastword

Banned
More hardware/GPU features that were baked in, coming in the next weeks as well -- straight from Cerny.





Taken from Digital Foundry's excellent article, I thought it would be nice to focus on the development/hardware side of things.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-three-hours-with-playstation-4-pro
Looking forward to more details in the coming weeks, there's much we don't know about the hardware yet. He also mentioned that the GPU is based on polaris 10 with some enhancements to that hardware as well, so I'm also tuned to what these improvements over polaris are.
 

Metfanant

Member
So this is what OnQ was going on about when he said it's more 'efficient' rendering instead of upscaling.

I'm sure there will still be a stark difference between native and this method?
no, it's not what he was talking about




I was right accept it
stop...no you were not even close

Your comment don't even make sense. how is it not a more efficient way to get 4K when they are achieving 4K when everyone said they couldn't?

Stop derailing another thread with your asinine garbage..


Nobody should even engage this fool in conversation...it's not worth your time, or bandwidth
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
HTupolev said:
There's not really a difference.
There's absolutely a difference - in static images, you reconstruct 100% of the native image, and low-motion will come well over 90% as well.
Stretching pixels will "always" give you just 50%, no matter what filter you use.
There's also the fact that "ideally" you would run important post(like AA) on the native-reconstructed res, where upscale would still run it on the 50% version, which improves accuracy/quality further.

That said - I don't think all games will even do checkerboard - there are other, cheaper options too (that still beat upscaling).
 

III-V

Member
The PS4P image is softer, but that is quite a good approximation IMO.

Can't wait to hear more details from Cerny on what is exactly going on behind the scenes.
 

oneils

Member
Every frame is rendered at half res. What would you call that?

I'm an idiot, but wouldn't this be 1800i? Me dumb. Fascinating stuff, though. I am really interested to see how this works and have my eye on the xbr 850d.
 

onQ123

Member
no, it's not what he was talking about




stop...no you were not even close



Stop derailing another thread with your asinine garbage..


Nobody should even engage this fool in conversation...it's not worth your time, or bandwidth

Well this fool was right & PlayStation 4 Pro has 4K games so accept it you was wrong.
 

Orayn

Member
That's really interesting, I only expected them to provide dev resources and maybe make it a part of the SDK.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Comparison between RotTR on PS4 Pro (4k screenshot taken from Gamersyde video) and PC native 4K.

rottrcomparisonk1rb4.png
I'm sure the standard version looks better, whats with the textures on her scarf too? Even TRDE had better texture details, looks compressed as fuck too.
And can someone auto correct the brightness and contrast, it'll be better representative of what it looks like.
For example
Makes zero sense.
 

Orayn

Member
Well this fool was right & PlayStation 4 Pro has 4K games so accept it you was wrong.

They're only "4K" in the same sense as Killzone: Shadow Fall's MP and Rainbow Six Siege are 1080p. That's the final output resolution, but it's constructed from several lower resolution buffers so there are some gaps being filled in with an associated loss of quality.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Well this fool was right & PlayStation 4 Pro has 4K games so accept it you was wrong.
Resolution reconstruction is a known quantity. This is a new and seemingly high quality method but I don't see why you insist on calling it something else.
 

jett

D-Member
I'm sure the standard version looks better, whats with the textures on her scarf too? Even TRDE had better texture details, looks compressed as fuck too.
And can someone auto correct the brightness and contrast, it'll be better representative of what it looks like.
For example

Makes zero sense.

It's a screengrab from a video. It's not good enough quality for this kind of comparison.
 

Venom Fox

Banned
no, it's not what he was talking about




stop...no you were not even close



Stop derailing another thread with your asinine garbage..


Nobody should even engage this fool in conversation...it's not worth your time, or bandwidth

Well this fool was right & PlayStation 4 Pro has 4K games so accept it you was wrong.
I was about to defend you until I read this post. Nobody said you were wrong about the Pro having 4K games. If anything I and a few others were right when we said only remasters would hit NATIVE 4K. Indies such as The Witness can't even hit it.

Using up rendering, checkerbockerglory or whatever you want to call it this time only hits a near 4K IQ. Something which we specifically told you last week.

No triple A game is going to hit Native 4K. End of discussion. Just quit before everyone starts to dislike you man. I don't by the way I have no reason to.

Edit: And as RoboPlato said above. This is a new tech. It's never been done before in regards to built into the GPU. We don't even know what the tech is actually called.
 

Orayn

Member
It's not an entirely new technique, games have used lower resolution buffers for different effects for quite a while. This just applies it more broadly using a different spatial pattern.
 
I'm sure the standard version looks better, whats with the textures on her scarf too? Even TRDE had better texture details, looks compressed as fuck too.
And can someone auto correct the brightness and contrast, it'll be better representative of what it looks like.
For example

Makes zero sense.

Look at the ratio of the 4K images. Looks like they are a small crop of a much bigger image. The image was originally not a close up on Lara.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
It's not an entirely new technique, games have used lower resolution buffers for different effects for quite a while. This just applies it more broadly using a different spatial pattern.
I probably should have said new implementation of the technique.
 

onQ123

Member
They're only "4K" in the same sense as Killzone: Shadow Fall's MP and Rainbow Six Siege are 1080p. That's the final output resolution, but it's constructed from several lower resolution buffers so there are some gaps being filled in with an associated loss of quality.


No there is actually 4K games on PS4 Pro





I actually work at Hi-Rez. This is native 4k, not upscaled.

Resolution reconstruction is a known quantity. This is a new and seemingly high quality method but I don't see why you insist on calling it something else.

I tried to explain to people over & over that it would not be upscaling but upping the actual render output

I was about to defend you until I read this post. Nobody said you were wrong about the Pro having 4K games. If anything I and a few others were right when we said only remasters would hit NATIVE 4K. Indies such as The Witness can't even hit it.

Using up rendering, checkerbockerglory or whatever you want to call it this time only hits a near 4K IQ. Something which we specifically told you last week.

No triple A game is going to hit Native 4K. End of discussion. Just quit before everyone starts to dislike you man. I don't by the way I have no reason to.

Edit: And as RoboPlato said above. This is a new tech. It's never been done before in regards to built into the GPU. We don't even know what the tech is actually called.


No it was people saying that 4K would only be for media & games would be upscaled
 

bidguy

Banned
Well this fool was right & PlayStation 4 Pro has 4K games so accept it you was wrong.

they are as much 4k as quantum break is 1080p

^ are you for real ?

you never once said it was 4k native, now some dev with a non taxing game that can run on a toaster says its native 4k youre saying youre right ?
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Some perspective given from Johnathan Blow on the checkerboard rendering mode.

Actually, no, we care a lot about it. We are trying to carefully make decisions based on what is going to provide the highest image quality.

For example, we think doubling MSAA will give us a better result than rendering double the number of pixels and downscaling -- it's faster, and leaves more performance on the table for other features.

Examples of other features are things I mentioned in the posting, like having a longer streaming distance before the high-res meshes turn into low-res LODs. I think that kind of LOD popping has a much bigger effect on visual quality than some extra pixels that just get downscaled again anyway. So if we are able to put some of the GPU power into that, we feel it is the better choice.

HOWEVER, we might not be able to increase the LOD radius very much, because that also requires memory, and we are already pushing the boundaries of the console's memory. In that case we might have GPU power to burn, in which case maybe we might render at a resolution higher than 1080p, with 4x MSAA also, and then downscale.

But if I announce that right now, and then we end up not doing it, we will get a lot of people yelling at us for betraying them. So what I announced is the minimum that we can definitely do. And, as I said in the posting, none of this is completely final, and we will announce the final tech specs when the patch is done.

It seems like people appreciate this kind of posting and getting solid details on what a PS4 Pro patch means. That's great ... and some people are wondering why most developers don't do this. Well, it's because sometimes there's no way to win. If you announce one set of specs, people will try to punish you for not doing enough. If you announce another set of specs, and fail to meet them, people will try to punish you harder at that time.

If you want more of this kind of honest communication, please chill and give developers at least a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. We are working hard on this stuff. If people just go and look for random things to get mad about, then you're basically just punishing developers for communicating at all, so they won't.

Thanks for the great post, Jonathan. Is it fair to say that checkerboard rendering, which is the big new technique everyone is talking about since yesterday, is not necessarily the best use of PS4 Pro's additional power in all games?

I think it depends on the particular game and engine. Different rendering pipelines are structured differently; for some pipelines, the cost of adding checkerboard rendering would be very low, because they are already computing a lot of the information that checkerboard rendering needs. For other pipelines the cost might be higher. In our case we're just not sure of the total cost yet, but we think it is probably high enough that we may prefer to do a straight upscale. But we're not completely sure.

(It is true that, as Sony has announced, the PS4 Pro provides hardware support for checkerboard rendering that makes it faster than it would otherwise be. I think in some places I have seen the rumor that checkerboard is completely free, but I would consider that an exaggeration: the cost is going to vary per game. Unfortunately due to NDAs I can't provide details; I can't say anything more about Sony technologies than what they have announced. It is definitely true that if you had a game running on the original PS4, and the developer wants to do the most straightforward thing to make the game look better on the Pro, that developer could enable checkerboard rendering and the game will look better and run faster; so it's "free" in that sense. But if you are going to get picky about how you are spending the GPU memory and bandwidth of the new machine, then there are tradeoffs here, like with anything.)



Apparently its the easiest to get up and running because its baked into the hardware, and runs faster than it would in software, but is still a series of pros and cons depending on what devs want to do
 

Venom Fox

Banned
No there is actually 4K games on PS4 Pro










I tried to explain to people over & over that it would not be upscaling but upping the actual render output




No it was people saying that 4K would only be for media & games would be upscaled
When was this? I'm sure there was about 4 or 5 pages of discussion with multiple people when I said only indies and remasters would be native 4K.

You even said WWE, NBA 2k17 would be in native 4K. No wonder you didn't take that avatar bet with me...

Come on man. You were wrong. And I was right.
 

onQ123

Member
they are as much 4k as quantum break is 1080p

^ are you for real ?

you never once said it was 4k native, now some dev with a non taxing game that can run on a toaster says its native 4k youre saying youre right ?

What? I was right about them using a smart technique to get 4K & I also said that PS4 Pro could do 4K native in some games & I wasn't using that to say I'm right I used it to show the person who was talking about the technique not being 4K that there are some 4K games on PS4 Pro.
 

onQ123

Member
When was this? I'm sure there was about 4 or 5 pages of discussion with multiple people when I said only indies and remasters would be native 4K.

You even said WWE, NBA 2k17 would be in native 4K. No wonder you didn't take that avatar bet with me...

Come on man. You were wrong. And I was right.

You also said that AAA games would only be 1080P so Mass Effect & others proved you to be wrong.
 

Venom Fox

Banned
What? I was right about them using a smart technique to get 4K & I also said that PS4 Pro could do 4K native in some games & I wasn't using that to say I'm right I used it to show the person who was talking about the technique not being 4K that there are some 4K games on PS4 Pro.
The technique used isn't 4K though. Using the term in 4K implies native 4K. You said WWE and NBA would be in native 4k.

You were right about a smart technique getting them to NEAR 4K quality.

You also said that AAA games would only be 1080P so Mass Effect & others proved you to be wrong.
I was right though. They are using 1080p and checkerboarding from there. That's still just rendering in 1080p and checkerboarding. Whichever way you put it, it's still 1080p.

Edit. Here's what I said on in August. Page 61 of the meeting thread.

"Neo will be fully compatible with 1080p TV's including many graphical upgrades etc.
Neo won't be playing games in native 4K, they'll render at 1080p and upscale to 4K most of the time.

Neo will also make PSVR a better experience offering better graphics etc.

Edit: Plus the CPU up clock that he mentions above me!"
 

onQ123

Member
The technique used isn't 4K though. Using the term in 4K implies native 4K. You said WWE and NBA would be in native 4k.

You were right about a smart technique getting them to NEAR 4K quality.


I was right though. They are using 1080p and checkerboarding from there. That's still just rendering in 1080p and checkerboarding. Whichever way you put it, it's still 1080p.

What game is using 1080P?
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
The technique used isn't 4K though. Using the term in 4K implies native 4K. You said WWE and NBA would be in native 4k.

You were right about a smart technique getting them to NEAR 4K quality.


I was right though. They are using 1080p and checkerboarding from there. That's still just rendering in 1080p and checkerboarding. Whichever way you put it, it's still 1080p.
Checkerboard 4K is rendering at double 1080p. Around 1620p
 

Metfanant

Member
What? I was right about them using a smart technique to get 4K & I also said that PS4 Pro could do 4K native in some games & I wasn't using that to say I'm right I used it to show the person who was talking about the technique not being 4K that there are some 4K games on PS4 Pro.

giphy.gif
 

thelastword

Banned
Nobody with an ounce of sanity ever expected it to be. You're not dropping any inconvenient truths here. You're just being pedantic.

If you're not going to be content until all games are rendered in native 4k then feel free sit on the bench for the next several years. Just try not to pretend like this checkerboard 4k business is akin to a console not being able to hit 1080 in 2014 and beyond. That's ridiculous.
Yeah pretty much, it's strange how ridiculous the reasoning has been on checkerboard rendering. Even people who defended Shadowfall's reprojection are now taking stabs at this method.....

Checkerboard rendering has more to do with Shadowfall's rendering method as opposed to QB and R6. Shadowfall took a 960*1080p base image where it guesstimated details on the deficient axis, yes, it could still be inaccurate and it had some interlacing and IQ issues, but what's here is an improvement on that for two reasons.

960*1080 upscaled produces a blurry image, and so did Killzone's reprojection which had to guess lots of detail on the horizontal axis, so even guesing details with such a base resolution wont fix the blurriness and artifacts because 960*1080 does not scale well to 1080p native (IQ-WIse), however, 1080p scales nicely and proportianately to 4k on both axes, so using a base of 1080p and guessing/implementing details up-to 4k is just going to give you a sharper image for said reasons. Not withstanding, the accuracy of detailing pixels has improved significantly since Killzone, as it's now being done on the hardware level.

1.) Details are being added from a base of 1920*1080 --> 3840*2160, so the image will be more detailed as oppoed to a 1080p image just upscaled to 4k with no extra details filled in. ANNNND....... I can't stress this enough, but the fact that 1080p scales well to 4k means that when the image is uprendered to 4k it will look so much better with less artifacts due to better proportions. And before anyone says 960 is half of 1920 and therefore scales well....I'll tell you this, there's a reason why RB6 Siege's 960 * 540 based image looked sharper than Killzone's MP with less artifacts when the final 1080p image was re-constructed, and that's without much or any added details on pixels in that reconstructive process for Siege.


2..) It's the very reason why Sony does not want resolutions too low, for those with 4k monitors, so avoid resolutions like 1920 * 2160 for 4k, which would be Killzone's 960 * 1080 for a 1080p set. 1920 *2160 will look just as blurry on 4k. It's also the reason Sony won't allow 1440p upscaled because it's disproportionate on both axes and won't look good upscaled. So if your game is that ambitious and you can't hit the lowest upscale render of 3200 *1800 to 4k, they recommend checkerboard rendering with a base of 1080p as opposed to resolutions below 1800p like 1440p. It's not guess work, checkerboard rendering will look sharper and save that dev some power for the performance he requires, it's a win win for that dev. His game looks sharper and he gains some perf.

Having said all that, it's strange that so many people are only focusing on the lowest form of rendering on the the PS4.Pro. The PS4.Pro is also going to have games rendered at 4k native, 3680 x 2070, 3520 x 1980, 3360 x 1890, 3200 x 2160, 3200 x 1800. Checkerboard rendering is still going to look amazing with the advancements, yet so much talk and nobody knows at what rez Horizon, Mass Effect, First Light etc.. were running at, all those games looked incredibly sharp on a 4k screen.
 

onQ123

Member
I was right though. They are using 1080p and checkerboarding from there. That's still just rendering in 1080p and checkerboarding. Whichever way you put it, it's still 1080p.

Edit. Here's what I said on in August. Page 61 of the meeting thread.

"Neo will be fully compatible with 1080p TV's including many graphical upgrades etc.
Neo won't be playing games in native 4K, they'll render at 1080p and upscale to 4K most of the time.

Neo will also make PSVR a better experience offering better graphics etc.

Edit: Plus the CPU up clock that he mentions above me!"


I'm talking about this


[URL="http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=215123550&postcount=3063" said:
Venom Fox[/URL]]

Edit AAA titles on the Neo will just be 1080p native with high quality lighting, textures etc.
 

Venom Fox

Banned
What game is using 1080P?
By the way. I admitted I was wrong to say they'd be in 1080p (the post you posted above) if you didn't remember. I told you afterwards the NATIVE res (as in before upscaling) would be most commonly 1080p, 1440p, 1800p.

You tried telling me I was wrong when I said AAA titles wouldn't be 4K native. I told you it'd be indies and remasters.
Checkerboard 4K is rendering at double 1080p. Around 1620p
I know, I forgot lol just looked it up again. 2x2 1080p image.

Edit: But that's still be a base of 1080p though wouldn't it?

Edit 2: Like he says above. It's still a 1080p base.
 

majik13

Member
Ummm. Quantum break looked blurry as Fuck. Rainbow six looks soft as well compared to uncharted and infamous.. No thanks.

At the distance I play on my TV which is very far, R6 looks pretty crisp and clean, considering its about 540p native or so. I would have never guessed.
 

leeh

Member
What? I was right about them using a smart technique to get 4K & I also said that PS4 Pro could do 4K native in some games & I wasn't using that to say I'm right I used it to show the person who was talking about the technique not being 4K that there are some 4K games on PS4 Pro.
I don't know why people are posting laughing reaction gifs. There isn't anything in there what's wrong?

He said they'd use checkerboard rendering to get to 4k and said there'd be some native 4k games (eg Smite). He's factually correct guys, I don't get it.
 

onQ123

Member
I don't know why people are posting laughing reaction gifs. There isn't anything in there what's wrong?

He said they'd use checkerboard rendering to get to 4k and said there'd be some native 4k games (eg Smite). He's factually correct guys, I don't get it.

I think someone feelings are hurt because he was wrong & posting gifs is the only way he will feel better about himself
 

Venom Fox

Banned
I don't know why people are posting laughing reaction gifs. There isn't anything in there what's wrong?

He said they'd use checkerboard rendering to get to 4k and said there'd be some native 4k games (eg Smite). He's factually correct guys, I don't get it.
Oh he was definitely right about checkerboard rendering, credit where credits due, I'll definitely give him that.


My only issue (not even an issue just a discussion really) is he said AAA games would be 4K native. Me and him did agree on indies.

So yes he was half right.

Edit: I'll never get 2x16 bit instructions fit into 1 32bit instruction. Out of my head until the day I die. Thanks for that onQ.
 

leeh

Member
I think someone feelings are hurt because he was wrong & posting gifs is the only way he will feel better about himself
As much as I find that comment petty, I'm not surprised you'd say that considering the bandwagon against you.
Oh he was definitely right about checkerboard rendering, credit where credits due, I'll definitely give him that.


My only issue (not even an issue just a discussion really) is he said AAA games would be 4K native. Me and him did agree on indies.

So yes he was half right.

Edit: I'll never get 2x16 bit instructions fit into 1 32bit instruction. Out of my head until the day I die. Thanks for that onQ.
Did he ever say that AAA games would be 4k outside of check board rendering? If I recall from what I've seen myself, the only time he stated that was with checkerboard.
 

onQ123

Member
Oh he was definitely right about checkerboard rendering, credit where credits due, I'll definitely give him that.


My only issue (not even an issue just a discussion really) is he said AAA games would be 4K native. Me and him did agree on indies.

So yes he was half right.

Edit: I'll never get 2x16 bit instructions fit into 1 32bit instruction. Out of my head until the day I die. Thanks for that onQ.


I still say that games like NBA 2K can run at 4K native because they don't really push the PS4.

I'm not crazy I know if you're using newer hardware you can do things more efficiently & a game like NBA 2K can be made to run at 4K on PS4 Pro while looking just as good if not better than it does on Xbox One.
 

leeh

Member
I still say that games like NBA 2K can run at 4K native because they don't really push the PS4.

I'm not crazy I know if you're using newer hardware you can do things more efficiently & a game like NBA 2K can be made to run at 4K on PS4 Pro while looking just as good if not better than it does on Xbox One.
I'm with you, I think games like you stated and FIFA will be 4k. I'd put money on that being an accurate prediction.
 

Venom Fox

Banned
As much as I find that comment petty, I'm not surprised you'd say that considering the bandwagon against you.

Did he ever say that AAA games would be 4k outside of check board rendering? If I recall from what I've seen myself, the only time he stated that was with checkerboard.
He didn't state the term upscaled. He said AAA games will be 4K. Like I said above, when you say a game is in 4K without clarifying that its upscaled, you automatically make the assumption it's native.
I still say that games like NBA 2K can run at 4K native because they don't really push the PS4.

I'm not crazy I know if you're using newer hardware you can do things more efficiently & a game like NBA 2K can be made to run at 4K on PS4 Pro while looking just as good if not better than it does on Xbox One.

I'm with you, I think games like you stated and FIFA will be 4k. I'd put money on that being an accurate prediction.
Nah, I don't see them hitting native 4K 30fps. Not even games like the witness can. Open world I know but it's an extremely simple game.

Fifa meanwhile I agree with.
 

onQ123

Member
As much as I find that comment petty, I'm not surprised you'd say that considering the bandwagon against you.

Did he ever say that AAA games would be 4k outside of check board rendering? If I recall from what I've seen myself, the only time he stated that was with checkerboard.

Well I ignored his insults & he is continuing to post gifs & so on so it seem he is hurt about something.


I said that I think games that ran 1080P 60 FPS on Xbox One like NBA 2K should be able to run at 4K on PS4 Pro & I still believe this.

It wouldn't be the best thing to do but if that was what they was going for it's possible.
 

Venom Fox

Banned
Well I ignored his insults & he is continuing to post gifs & so on so it seem he is hurt about something.


I said that I think games that ran 1080P 60 FPS on Xbox One like NBA 2K should be able to run at 4K on PS4 Pro & I still believe this.

It wouldn't be the best thing to do but if that was what they was going for it's possible.
4K 60?
 

Metfanant

Member
I think someone feelings are hurt because he was wrong & posting gifs is the only way he will feel better about himself

What exactly were you right about again?

- "uprendering?" - nope...wrong
- using that Sony patent that is more taxing than native rendering? Nope...wrong again
- second GPUs or co-processors? Nope, wrong

The scary thing is that you're delusional enough to think you were "right" about anything about the Neo/Pro lol...

EVERYONE from the get go has been trying to explain to YOU that AAA games on the Pro would not be native, but would instead use some sort of reconstruction technique or plain old upscaling...and that is EXACTLY what it happening...

Smaller, less taxing games will be able to bump to a 4k native res, and that's exactly what we're seeing...

You've been carrying on for months about a made up technique you call uprendering that doesn't even exist outside of a patent intended for something completely different than the PS4...

The reality around the situation is you're delusional...and you're ranting about extra GPUs in the Neo design, and co processors and uprendering nonsense is the proof...


onQ laying it down.

Some seriously mean posters in here.

Careful you don't step in the bullshit
 
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