They should have had the strategic foresight I guess
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PS4 Pro: Was the lack of a UHD Player Strategic?
- Thread starter ClearData
- Start date
They should have had the strategic foresight I guess
Jack The Nipper
Banned
it's opposite ps3 but idn't need to be....
Was not the best choice even though someone has to come out as the digital king...
Was not the best choice even though someone has to come out as the digital king...
The 2tb XB1 costs about $330 to make apparantely from what I read, so the 500gb version probably costs a tad below $300
Memorabilia
Member
Usually the first post nails it, but this is wrong. BluRays are selling well, as always. Given that 10s of millions of consumers are saddled with poor internet infrastructure and/or onerous bandwidth caps, we're a long ways from the sort of "all digital utopia" that some people continue to believe is already here for some bizarre reason. True, more and more people stream their content. But, for the foreseeable future if you want the best quality that's still BluRay and UHD. Even Netflix's best "4K" content is compressed to the point it doesn't look as good as a 1080p BR.
To the OP's question: Not including the UHD drive is baffling for a few reasons, most importantly because including it would have no doubt sold quite a few Pros for the UHD feature alone and would have provided incentive for slow adopters to possibly pick up a (Sony) 4K TV. Sony basically sacrificed that circular sales effect to keep the Pro at the $400 sweet spot while spinning the absence of the UHD as "for the gamers first", etc...(when u can damn well bet that they'd have loved to include it if they could keep the price at $400 and not lose money). So, yeah, it was "strategic" in the sense it's a calculated risk they needed to take in order to not repeat the PS3 mistake. They're betting they'll pick up more Pro sales from price than they'll lose by not including UHD.
Thing is, it's almost a forgone conclusion the next revision of the Pro will have UHD, once economies of scale kick in on the new SOC and they can integrate UHD without increasing price. They could always release a "Pro Elite" version for $500, I suppose. But I think that's probably a bridge too far. They need to keep things simple and three SKUs would be a mess. So, UHD will come with a revision...or PS5.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Yeah, the more I think about it the more likely I think this is why. I mean, the adoption of BDs compared to DVDs has been really slow hasn't it, and I expect 4K HD Blu-rays comprise a tiny part of that audience. It'd be interesting to know stats for this kind of thing. I wonder how many people who would moan about this actually own a 4K TV and 4K BDs.
EventHorizon
Member
As someone who initially criticized the lack of UHD in the PS4 Slim, I am coming around to its lack of inclusion in the new half-gen versions of Sony's consoles. My change of heart came about after realizing that Sony's incredibly horrible marketing of the PS4 Pro had skewed my judgement, and after taking a realistic look at the console market going forward. Let's look at that market for the new consoles.
Microsoft
The fact is that Microsoft has a problem. With the PS4 Pro, it currently has absolutely nothing to compete in the $399+ price category. Yes their consoles have UHD drives, and that would be nice to have, but no one is going give up the much greater graphical abilities of the Pro for it. We already settled this at the start of this gen. People buy consoles FIRST for the games, and only after do they factor in the media capabilities. Microsoft might as well just stop trying to sell any XB1 S over $350, because it ain't happening with the PS4 Pro around.
With that out of the way, let's turn our gaze to the PS4 Slim. Here I will admit that my original concern still has some merit. Its competitor, the XB1 S at $299, does look like a great value for cost conscious consumers with its included UHD Blu Ray drive. I still think Microsoft could make up some ground here because of it. However, those same cost conscious consumers will be the ones least likely to pay extra for UHD Blu Ray disks. Also note that the PS4 Slim will include HDR. That means that games will in no way be penalized for the omission of UHD technology. As far as games go, the PS4 Slim still beats the XB1 S graphically. The PS4 Slim will also be capable of VR which will likely forever be out of the reach of the XB1 S.
In Microsoft's camp at $299 we have the XB1 S. Just remember that even when the XB1 was $50 cheaper, it was losing consistently to the PS4. Now they will be priced the same. A UHD drive could make up the difference, but likely won't because a good number of those cost conscious buyers will have no intention of spending extra to buy UHD Blu Ray disks.
In summary, when you compare the actual competition head-to-head Microsoft loses badly. The PS4 Pro so outclasses the Microsoft Xbox One S - 2 TB that it is laughable, and the PS4 Slim gets to compete on equal ground on price even though the PS4 soundly defeated the XB1 when it was $50 more. The lack of UHD is jarring, but if omitting it helped the Sony consoles compete in price categories where they will clearly dominate, then it was worth it.
Microsoft
- $299: Microsoft Xbox One S Halo Collection Bundle - 500 GB
- $349: Xbox One S - Madden NFL 17 Bundle - 1 TB
- $399: Microsoft Xbox One S - 2 TB
- $449: Xbox One S - Gears of War 4 Limited Edition Bundle - 2 TB
- $299: PlayStation 4 Slim - 500 GB
- $399: PlayStation 4 Pro - 1 TB
The fact is that Microsoft has a problem. With the PS4 Pro, it currently has absolutely nothing to compete in the $399+ price category. Yes their consoles have UHD drives, and that would be nice to have, but no one is going give up the much greater graphical abilities of the Pro for it. We already settled this at the start of this gen. People buy consoles FIRST for the games, and only after do they factor in the media capabilities. Microsoft might as well just stop trying to sell any XB1 S over $350, because it ain't happening with the PS4 Pro around.
With that out of the way, let's turn our gaze to the PS4 Slim. Here I will admit that my original concern still has some merit. Its competitor, the XB1 S at $299, does look like a great value for cost conscious consumers with its included UHD Blu Ray drive. I still think Microsoft could make up some ground here because of it. However, those same cost conscious consumers will be the ones least likely to pay extra for UHD Blu Ray disks. Also note that the PS4 Slim will include HDR. That means that games will in no way be penalized for the omission of UHD technology. As far as games go, the PS4 Slim still beats the XB1 S graphically. The PS4 Slim will also be capable of VR which will likely forever be out of the reach of the XB1 S.
In Microsoft's camp at $299 we have the XB1 S. Just remember that even when the XB1 was $50 cheaper, it was losing consistently to the PS4. Now they will be priced the same. A UHD drive could make up the difference, but likely won't because a good number of those cost conscious buyers will have no intention of spending extra to buy UHD Blu Ray disks.
In summary, when you compare the actual competition head-to-head Microsoft loses badly. The PS4 Pro so outclasses the Microsoft Xbox One S - 2 TB that it is laughable, and the PS4 Slim gets to compete on equal ground on price even though the PS4 soundly defeated the XB1 when it was $50 more. The lack of UHD is jarring, but if omitting it helped the Sony consoles compete in price categories where they will clearly dominate, then it was worth it.
Everyone owns a HDTV by now and yet DVDs massively outsell Blurays.
The audience for UHD Blurays is miniscule. It's a niche within a niche.
A friggin lot of you guys with a bunch of anedoctal evidence, lol. If you're going to put out your opinion, fine. Just don't come and say "a lot of people use/don't use UHD blu-ray" and similar affirmations without any way to back up this information.
Comparing the prices of PS4Pro and Xbox One S and forgetting that the Pro has from two to three times the power in gaming (the actual point of a console if I recall)... C'mon.
I'm not defending Sony here, despite believing that this is a calculated move, just asking kindly for more cohesive argumentations.
Comparing the prices of PS4Pro and Xbox One S and forgetting that the Pro has from two to three times the power in gaming (the actual point of a console if I recall)... C'mon.
I'm not defending Sony here, despite believing that this is a calculated move, just asking kindly for more cohesive argumentations.
CaptainofIndustry
Member
Fuck all this. I'm going to buy a Genesis with a 32x. That's the real upgrade.
Memorabilia
Member
BRs are selling just fine. I wish this line of thinking would go away. Increased streaming and maintaining healthy BluRay sales are not (yet) mutually exclusive. But you got me thinking about a parallel issue: If some people are going to wave away complaints about the Pro's lack of UHD player by using the excuse that "nobody owns 4K TVs or cares about the best 4K content"... Then who the heck is Sony marketing this thing to as a (sort of) "4K console"?
Vincent Grayson
Member
BRs are selling just fine. I wish this line of thinking would go away. Increased streaming and maintaining healthy BluRay sales are not (yet) mutually exclusive. But you got me thinking about a parallel issue: If some people are going to wave away complaints about the Pro's lack of UHD player by using the excuse that "nobody owns 4K TVs or cares about the best 4K content"... Then who the heck is Sony marketing this thing to as a (sort of) "4K console"?
The thinking seems to be that 4K gaming and 4K streaming have a bigger and brighter future than 4K UHD. That's probably true for a lot of people, but there's still a big difference between even just regular 1080p streaming and standard BR discs when it comes to image quality (not to mention random stream quality issues).
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
If it brings the price down yes, my PC hasn't had an optical drives for years, why does my console need one? I do understand it's a bit more complicated than though with regards to supporting brick and mortar stores and them giving Sony MS product placement/awareness, but in the future there is no doubt in my mind that the optical drive will be dropped as digital stores improve.
Memorabilia
Member
Yep, exactly. I mean, to be fair to the other side of this debate, I occasionally have a laugh at the concept of average "Joe and Jane Six-Pack", who just bought their brand-new 4K TV and decided they didn't need a BR player because DVD is "good enough".
Thing is, there's at least some truth in that little parable, even if the idea makes video/audiophiles throw up a little in their mouths. hehe Indeed, even Netflix "4K" looks worse than a 1080p BR. Which comes full circle to the idea that the buying public doesn't always make rational decisions or choose the best option, they often just go with what is most convenient and cheapest. With this idea and cost savings in mind, I totally get why Sony left the UHD out of the Pro v1.0. But, it still feels a bit odd to market it as a premium piece of hardware when it's missing such a no-brainer feature. There's still a large market for high quality optical discs, even if Streaming is steadily taking over. Internet infrastructure problems and bandwidth caps still plague too many millions of consumers to write off physical media entirely.
moozoom
Member
Probably they want to sell their stand alone Blu ray players without having the PS4 pro cannibalizing sales. Sony video and tv divisions have been having trouble being profitable for a few years if I remember well. Save a few bucks by skipping the drive in every ps4, and try to sell another machine to enthusiasts.
Also, you can't ignore how people consume videos and media now.
I never was the type to watch a movie multiple times even when I had bought the dvd or blu-ray, and my last two house moves proved me digital media is the way to go : all those dvd's, games and books are a pain to pack and lift ! Besides, it's been a few years since I bought a blu-ray, I prefer digital downloads now.
Netflix arriving in France last year has completely changed my viewing habits (and those of my friends and family) too. Almost everyone dropped their satellite or cable subscription, and use Netflix as their main media player. Lots of choice, multiples languages and subtitles (which is rare or nonexistent in france on tv ) and the possibility to stream on mutliple screens and appliances makes it an evidence.
Also, you can't ignore how people consume videos and media now.
I never was the type to watch a movie multiple times even when I had bought the dvd or blu-ray, and my last two house moves proved me digital media is the way to go : all those dvd's, games and books are a pain to pack and lift ! Besides, it's been a few years since I bought a blu-ray, I prefer digital downloads now.
Netflix arriving in France last year has completely changed my viewing habits (and those of my friends and family) too. Almost everyone dropped their satellite or cable subscription, and use Netflix as their main media player. Lots of choice, multiples languages and subtitles (which is rare or nonexistent in france on tv ) and the possibility to stream on mutliple screens and appliances makes it an evidence.
catofthecanals
Banned
This thread is hilarious. If Microsoft had done this y'all would be losing your minds.
phant0m
Member
A UHD drive too short.
anothertech
Member
Xbox 360 tried this over a decade ago. They were far to early though for it to make sense. They still became the market leader because of the gaming side of the console.
I think Sony probably has the numbers and analytics for physical media as to why this decision makes sense at this time. I'm betting more than half those complaining about it on this forum don't have and may not ever buy a 4K media player.
By the time ps5/xbox2 roll around, physical media may be a thing of the past.
Price and timing on the other hand, were much more important to focus on. Getting a year ahead of the competition and at a price point that was comfortable for everyone were the right decisions that will affect the sales of this platform in a huge way.
Personally, it would have been a nice feature to have, but once gamers see the level of quality they can get with games going forward for the next year, including 3rd party games, I don't think it will matter that the Pro doesn't have a feature most wouldn't have been using anyhow.
If it was a choice between the price and 1tb hard drive or 4K media player, I think they made the right decision.
I think Sony probably has the numbers and analytics for physical media as to why this decision makes sense at this time. I'm betting more than half those complaining about it on this forum don't have and may not ever buy a 4K media player.
By the time ps5/xbox2 roll around, physical media may be a thing of the past.
Price and timing on the other hand, were much more important to focus on. Getting a year ahead of the competition and at a price point that was comfortable for everyone were the right decisions that will affect the sales of this platform in a huge way.
Personally, it would have been a nice feature to have, but once gamers see the level of quality they can get with games going forward for the next year, including 3rd party games, I don't think it will matter that the Pro doesn't have a feature most wouldn't have been using anyhow.
If it was a choice between the price and 1tb hard drive or 4K media player, I think they made the right decision.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Strategic or not, it's a bad proposition. Digital isn't gonna be the usable standard for 4K (hell even regular HD) for another couple of years minimum for most of the country.
If Sony believes physical is already not worth investing in, then why are they coming out with a standalone 4K player?
If Sony believes physical is already not worth investing in, then why are they coming out with a standalone 4K player?
CyberChulo
Member
I was done with physical media when the PS4 came out. I was done with BluRay discs after I purchased my 5th movie on that medium with the PS3. I don't care about UHD discs when I can stream 4K on my TV. That is all.
Nocturno999
Member
All these decisions are strategic. I'ts just a matter of time to see if it was worth it.
Xbox One DRM, PS Vita, no adapter with N3DS. All strategic decisions.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
They wanted to hit 399. Simple as that. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a slim pro next fall with uhd.
thelastword
Banned
I don't think it's people going through lengths to justify the decision as opposed to "Should Sony not pack in as much hardware and features that will enhance the GAMER's experience?" as opposed to putting a feature that will make the PS4.Pro more expensive, that has no direct benefit to gaming.
The point is, you could still play your regular blurays on the .Pro and you also have an option to watch 4k content through streaming services. If you are that much of an HD movie buff, you would already have a standalone UHD player anyhow. So at this point, I think people are just making noise irrespective of whether they are/were going to be buying UHD disks or going to use that capability...... or......... they are simply Microsoft fans who want to throw shade because the S has a UHD Player and so will the Scorpio.......
It will be interesting to find out how many S owners own a 4K TV......, I think that would be an interesting stat.....
I do think putting in a feature just to say you have it is a bit ridiculous. I would rather have as much hardware for gaming since this is why I buy my consoles in the first place. If this console had a UHD drive, the price would be higher and perhaps a gaming related feature would be cut off or dumbed down to maintain it's $399.00 pricepoint. That would definitely be a no-no and I don't need a UHD drive for games because 99.9% of PS4 games have fitted well enough on a regular bluray disc. I'm not sure I know of any games that required several discs over 50 GB....
Not saying that everyone is this way but I don't know the last time one of my friends or family actually purchased media on a physical disc. It's something that's a hold over from a previous era but games especially have been moving more and more to digital distribution over physical. Netflix streaming 4k is just the cherry on top for Sony not including the UHD player.
My guess is that Sony believes that physical media will be come less and less relevant as time goes on and adding cost with a UHD Blu-Ray player would be a poor investment for the console and that the money would be better spent elsewhere.
Whether this is a mistake or foresight remains to be seen. Sony is either going to be incredibly insightful or foolish with this move.
My guess is that Sony believes that physical media will be come less and less relevant as time goes on and adding cost with a UHD Blu-Ray player would be a poor investment for the console and that the money would be better spent elsewhere.
Whether this is a mistake or foresight remains to be seen. Sony is either going to be incredibly insightful or foolish with this move.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
It's not ridiculous at all. The Xbox One S has a 4K bluray drive. It is $299 and could price drop next year.
Sony is one of the harbingers of the format, including that in their console could only help to further boost sales of 4K as a format (which is already big and getting bigger. Go to your loca store and compare how many 1080ps are on sale/in stock compared to 4K). Sales are up almost 90% year over year.
Do you have any idea how compressed that resolution is when streaming? It can end up looking worse than 1080p a lot of the time and that's if you even have the speed/bandwidth to stream it in the first place.
MilkyJoe
Member
They will, the same as no one watched Blu Rays back in 2006/7
If MS had decided not to include a UHD player i'm sure nobody would've gave a damn. Yu can't miss what you never had
people are buying 4K displays and watch SD over the air TV on it. Only a few buy a 4k tv to watch native 4K content. And those probably bought a UHD BR player along with their expensive tv: unless i am missing something and everyone that bought a 4K tv last year has waited for XBone S to be released to enjoy their 4K TVs...
Dee Dah Dave
Member
About as strategic as walking up to Mike Tyson and asking him if he fancies a bit of dry bum sex.
But yeah, it's a glaring omission from a supposed premium console. Clearly a cost cutting exercise but incredibly dumb for a '4K' machine. I suppose they don't want to undermine their flagging AV department too, which is understandable but that's not my problem.
The Neo is possibly the next console I buy, but the lack of a UHD drive is a real turn off.
But yeah, it's a glaring omission from a supposed premium console. Clearly a cost cutting exercise but incredibly dumb for a '4K' machine. I suppose they don't want to undermine their flagging AV department too, which is understandable but that's not my problem.
The Neo is possibly the next console I buy, but the lack of a UHD drive is a real turn off.
It will be interesting the see the PS4 Pro's price in late 2017 when Scorpio launches. My guess is it won't be $399. It surely won't drop to the $299 price you're pointing to, but it could potentially drop to $349. I really don't think the Pro was meant to compete against the XBOne S. Given the state of the market today, I don't think the Pro was meant to compete with any other platform... it's more of an extension of their already leading platform. Late 2017 will be an interesting time for gaming but I suspect we'll know how Sony's trending post-Pro long before Scorpio actually launches.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Standard Definition huh? Idk where you live at.
You totally missed the point. 4K bluray players have only been on the market for a few months. There are currently only 3 players including the One S. The point is that another console especially one with a brand as popular as PlayStation including that in their newest release would only further increase sales in not only UHD Blurays, (which have sold quadruple what Blurays sold in the same window), but the 4K format in general.
Omnistalgic
Member
It really wouldn't man...even now, it's the same users going back n forth or drive by posts.
Majority of people don't care, 4K TVs are still expensive and BR is still being outsold by DVD.
I live in Spain, the infraworld
I don't disagree that including a UHD BR would be positive for the format, but some people at sony will have gaiged interest , pros and cons, and decided not to include for a number of reasons, and it is fine. As always, you can't make everyone happy. And i think considering UHD BR is still in its early infancy, it is not big deal, really, it is niche and still will be for a while (PS4 Pro will be niche compared to original ps4 and slim too)
MisterXDTV
Member
HD/UHD Digital streaming didn't exist 10 years ago, maybe even 5 years ago
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
One of these is not like the other. Vita flopped, but it was obviously a strategic decision. In fact I'd argue Xbox One DRM was too, as abhorrent as it was. Strategic decisions aren't always good decisions, as is the case with PS4 Pro's lack of UHD player.
taizuke
Member
I would argue MS only cared enough because they're behind.
market will decide if it is a good or bad desicion, not you or me.
LordOfChaos
Member
I think struggling to hit 400 dollars is all the conspiracy needed
fvng
Member
Uh you are part of said market
AppleSeason
Member
Given that reviews of the original PS4 DVD and BD playback capabilities put it behind PS3 and it clearly was aimed as gaming machine + streaming rather than the almost a media center PS3 was (Loved being able to play SACDs), I'm not that surprised. Also, it will take years for UHD to become popular, if it ever does.
Herp Derpington
Member
And UHD streaming is still very bandwidth heavy. It's a smaller market than even UHD so either way we're very early. I think Sony just wanted to hit a price point and felt a larger HDD was a better selling point than UHD. This doesn't preclude them from including a UHD drive in a future pro version and I'd expect to see it in the PS5. Saying that I think it's a misstep.
The simply thought demand isn't and won't be there and it's better to have lower cost base to have more freedom on price (and margin).
They're probably right. I'd prefer them to support it myself but I can see why the wouldn't.
I doubt this is likely to cost them more than some tens of thousands of lost sales to XB1 S / Scorpio and WW that number is small enough to be irrelevant: in one week then can sell 15 K more units in Japan alone.
I prefer physical media still but the market is going the other way and the trend from DVD to BR to BR 4K to me looks like one of steady decline.
They're probably right. I'd prefer them to support it myself but I can see why the wouldn't.
I doubt this is likely to cost them more than some tens of thousands of lost sales to XB1 S / Scorpio and WW that number is small enough to be irrelevant: in one week then can sell 15 K more units in Japan alone.
I prefer physical media still but the market is going the other way and the trend from DVD to BR to BR 4K to me looks like one of steady decline.
I would really, really like to though.
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