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[doomquake]

i dont know. just the whole thing seems bizarre. I understand it has to be done since consoles are basically 10 year old cheap pcs now..but buehh. All this spin and beating around the bush is cringy to watch. "Single unified experience..." Man..you literally called the thing a PS4 PRO, making it seem like the other version is some scrub level budget one that has less features.

 

[TerryLee81]

The "no elite controller" makes no sense to me.

Especially for the Pro model, which caters to gamers who are ready to spend more for better iq. I'm sure some of them would spend more for a better controller.

Do we know any sales numbers of the xone elite controller?

 

[Carn82]

I got more than 15% right & FP16 does make PS4 Pro a 8.4TF console. it's 8.4 trillion 16-bit floating point operations per second that's not up for debate just because you have become used to FP32 numbers .

Hell, why not market it as an 16.8 trillion 8-bit FPO/s machine!
FP16 is only useful in a (very) limited amount of cases.

 

[Toxa]

A pro controller is now an important feature People love to buy and Re rebuy the same thing all over again

 

[wesleyshark]

The "no elite controller" makes no sense to me.

Especially for the Pro model, which caters to gamers who are ready to spend more for better iq. I'm sure some of them would spend more for a better controller.

Do we know any sales numbers of the xone elite controller?

http://venturebeat.com/2016/06/28/microsoft-has-made-1-million-xbox-one-elite-controllers/

As of June 28th 2016 they made 1 million elite controllers. Not sure if made = shipped, and obviously shipped =/= sold, but that's still a pretty good indicator that it's selling well.

 

[onQ123]

Yes.. it is. Because as was already stated... a 3TF 32FP console would not come close to being 'the most powerful console ever made' and releasing more than a year after it's competition. Not to mention, they are directly comparing it to the XO. They couldn't market it as ~4x more powerful than the XO if it weren't the case.

This doesn't need to be explained to you... you already know it to be true.

When they said that PS4 Pro wasn't announced yet & even after it was announced it was thought that it's peak performance was 4.2TF so even if Xbox Scorpio was 6TF FP16 they still had room to market it as the most powerful console.


They even claim to be the first & only console to enable true 4K & high fidelity VR.

 

[krang]

So an Elite controller would divide the user base more than a Pro console would?

 

[brandonh83]

So an Elite controller would divide the user base more than a Pro console would?

And I guess just like it divided the Xbox user base...

Yeah this is disappointingly idiotic.

 

[mckmas8808]

OnQ feels like Jeff except he gets like 15% of the truth right and suddenly we can't hear the end of it.

The fact of the matter is, like the PS3's SPU's, like the 256GB/s of EDRAM of the 360 connected to the framebuffer and so on, they are good at CERTAIN tasks, not all, and not most. They are useful, but should not be misrepresented for what they are not.

FP16 does not make PS4 Pro an 8tflop console by any means. It just means that certain processes can be sped up if optimized in a certain manner to mimic the speed of what you would see out of a 'conventional' 8tflop GPU using FP32 because of twice the crunching speed.

Cerny was using some smooth talk, because you can't say he's entirely wrong, but he's painting a more rosy picture of the hardware that, as shown by this thread, can be very misleading.

Cerny wasn't misleading at all.

Hell, why not market it as an 16.8 trillion 8-bit FPO/s machine!
FP16 is only useful in a (very) limited amount of cases.

From what devs are saying, it's not (very) limited at all. We'll see it more than you think.

 

[Self_Destructive]

When they said that PS4 Pro wasn't announced yet & even after it was announced it was thought that it's peak performance was 4.2TF so even if Xbox Scorpio was 6TF FP16 they still had room to market it as the most powerful console.


They even claim to be the first & only console to enable true 4K & high fidelity VR.

The fact is that when both consoles were announced, they were referring to FP32 TFlops throughput... because nothing was known to be differently at the time. Sony completely marketed the Pro as a 4.2TF performance machine.. and will continue to do so.

As I said, they will use words like 'effectively' to describe that the console can punch higher than that if developers utilize mixed precision computations in their games.

They aren't going to market the Pro as an 8.4TFlop machine.. because it can never realistically hit that throughput in any modern game. Additionally, MS is simply not going to release a console one year later that is less powerful than the Pro.. when the entire mandate is to design the most powerful console upon release...

You can question it until they are made to confirm it.. but you know it in your heart to be true lol..

 

[onQ123]

The fact is that when both consoles were announced, they were referring to FP32 TFlops throughput... because nothing was known to be differently at the time. Sony completely marketed the Pro as a 4.2TF performance machine.. and will continue to do so.

As I said, they will use words like 'effectively' to describe that the console can punch higher than that if developers utilize mixed precision computations in their games.

They aren't going to market the Pro as an 8.4TFlop machine.. because it can never realistically hit that throughput in any modern game. Additionally, MS is simply not going to release a console one year later that is less powerful than the Pro.. when the entire mandate is to design the most powerful console upon release...

You can question it until they are made to confirm it.. but you know it in your heart to be true lol..

That's the same case for FP32

 

[Purest 78]

There are people that use cheap third party controllers so I guess people/you shouldn't use the (official) Dualshock 4 either.

Anyway, he should have simply said they don't have any plans to make one and leave it at that. Stating "unity" shortly after talking in-depth about new accessories and hardware models looks silly.

What? Cheap 3rd party controller's don't have extra buttons To give you an advantage. You don't have to take your thumbs off the analog. If people feel they need a advantage cool for them. I personally don't want any edge over the competition.

I'm the type to pick the worst Characters in games to make it Harder.

 

[TheYanger]

What? Cheap 3rd party controller's don't have extra buttons To give you an advantage. You don't have to take your thumbs off the analog. If people feel they need a advantage cool for them. I personally don't want any edge over the competition.

I'm the type to pick the worst Characters in games to make it Harder.

Nobody is stopping you from buying the shitty third party controllers to make it harder on yourself then. The rest of us aren't concerned with 'AN EDGE' - The elite controller is awesome because it's fucking comfortable. After 25+ years of gaming, a lot of us appreciate that in and of itself with no regard towards making things 'easier' in any way, other than not having to claw grip your damn controller.

 

[Outrun]

That's the same case for FP32

With all due respect, what are you arguing about?

 

[Self_Destructive]

That's the same case for FP32

Fair enough, but 4.2TFops @ FP32 is more accurate than 8.4 @ FP16/32 mixed.

I guess you can't put anything past marketing.. but one would natuarlly assume with 99.9999% accuracy, that all TFlop numbers reported at the reveals of both devices were based on FP32 precision.

I understand you want all doubt removed from your mind.. but I find it hard to believe that you truly think that this is anything but the case.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I've been getting more and more soured with Sony recently due to their horrible customer service and shit like this doesn't help. You don't want to divide the audience with a controller? But are fine with a console that can run games better?

Jesus christ. After this next set of games I won't touch my ps4 besides video apps and exclusives. Pc main console it is.

 

[Space_nut]

With all due respect, what are you arguing about?

That the pro is up to 2+ tflops above Scorpio.

Bring on the reveal!!

 

[wesleyshark]

I've been getting more and more soured with Sony recently due to their horrible customer service and shit like this doesn't help. You don't want to divide the audience with a controller? But are fine with a console that can run games better?

Jesus christ. After this next set of games I won't touch my ps4 besides video apps and exclusives. Pc main console it is.

Yeah it's such a weird thing for him to argue.

If the ps4 pro vs the ps4 og isn't a case of the have and have nots, then an elite controller vs a regular controller isn't a case of the have and have nots, either.

 

[Outrun]

Fair enough, but 4.2TFops @ FP32 is more accurate than 8.4 @ FP16/32 mixed.

I guess you can't put anything past marketing.. but one would natuarlly assume with 99.9999% accuracy, that all TFlop numbers reported at the reveals of both devices were based on FP32 precision.

I understand you want all doubt removed from your mind.. but I find it hard to believe that you truly think that this is anything but the case.

This.

The concern here is just incredible. Can you imagine the invisceration that MS would receive in GAF if the numbers were made up?

 

[FarFromAnyGame]

When they said that PS4 Pro wasn't announced yet & even after it was announced it was thought that it's peak performance was 4.2TF so even if Xbox Scorpio was 6TF FP16 they still had room to market it as the most powerful console.


They even claim to be the first & only console to enable true 4K & high fidelity VR.

First and only console to enable true 4K & high fidelity VR? LOL! MS should stop bullshitting!

 

[Inuhanyou]

The XBox One is compatible with the Xbox 360. I think that alone shows they are far ahead of Sony in the software department.

The Xbox One S is more powerful than the original Xbox One. There are no compatibility issues there.

THe Xbox one S only has 10% GPU upclock. Scorpio will most likely be locked down in the same way as PS4 Pro, because MS can't account for most third party games developed the same way many PS4 games are, by exactly frequency and frametime.

Cerny wasn't misleading at all.

Saying it is 'technically' an 8tflop GPU is like saying that 'technically' PS4 has 8GB RAM, therefore it competes with GPU's that have 8GB VRAM.

It was misleading.

 

[gooner4life_uk]

When Scuf exists why would you want an Elite controller? I can buy a Scuf controller for PS4 that does everything the Elite does and it's cheaper.

 

[leeh]

THe Xbox one S only has 10% GPU upclock. Scorpio will most likely be locked down in the same way as PS4 Pro, because MS can't account for most third party games developed the same way many PS4 games are, by exactly frequency and frametime.

Nope, it has been known for a long time now that it will max the graphical ceiling of any game pre-patch.

 

[panty]

The cpu really is a letdown. Such a shame, makes me angry

 

[Milly Osworth]

PS4 Pro sounds more and more like the Wiiu. Confusing and not really needed.

 

[wesleyshark]

When Scuf exists why would you want an Elite controller? I can buy a Scuf controller for PS4 that does everything the Elite does and it's cheaper.

Have you gotten to use an elite? It's a really, really, really nice controller. Super premium all around.

I definitely am not knocking Scuff at all, but having an official option is always nice.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

So is the Pro actually an 8.4TF console and Sony have done some engineering wonders like getting the GDDR5 into the original PS4 without anyone knowing?

 

[ShapeGSX]

THe Xbox one S only has 10% GPU upclock. Scorpio will most likely be locked down in the same way as PS4 Pro, because MS can't account for most third party games developed the same way many PS4 games are, by exactly frequency and frametime.

Then how are they getting all those Xbox 360 games to run so well on the Xbox One? It's a completely different architecture. There's no need to lock the Scorpio hardware down to a legacy mode.

 

[Karspankey]

The cpu really is a letdown. Such a shame, makes me angry

Do you want to be able to play all 700 previous PS4 games? That would be why the CPU needs to be the same.

 

[Shauneepeak]

They're OK with offering a premium console for enthusiasts but not OK with doing the same with controllers?

Makes zero sense.

It's because it has been stated the Pro and normal PS4 must have an equal playing field in regards to multiplayer, so no increased draw distance and what have you. So aside from looking prettier Pro players are not meant to have a distinct advantage, aside from the basic advantage of a higher resolution.

 

[Outrun]

When Scuf exists why would you want an Elite controller? I can buy a Scuf controller for PS4 that does everything the Elite does and it's cheaper.

Seriously.

I own and use both.

In terms of build quality, ergonomics, and customizability, it is not even close.

The price is comparable though...

 

[Raylan]

PS4 Pro sounds more and more like the Wiiu. Confusing and not really needed.

PS4 Pro is a PS4. Just with more power for better graphics/performance.
It's not a new console like the WiiU was.

PS4 Pro gives you more options. More options = nice

 

[Kyoufu]

It's because it has been stated the Pro and normal PS4 must have an equal playing field in regards to multiplayer, so no increased draw distance and what have you. So aside from looking prettier Pro players are not meant to have a distinct advantage, aside from the basic advantage of a higher resolution.

What does this have to do with controllers? Are you sure you quoted the right post?

 

[onQ123]

So is the Pro actually an 8.4TF console and Sony have done some engineering wonders like getting the GDDR5 into the original PS4 without anyone knowing?

It's 8.4TF FP16 it also has help rendering geometry & the ID buffer is going to help a lot once devs find more useful things to do with the data that it's providing.



I'm not sure why people are arguing with facts just because they don't get it. 8.4TF is the number of floating point operations per second that PS4 Pro GPU is capable of.

 

[mattp]

Then how are they getting all those Xbox 360 games to run so well on the Xbox One? It's a completely different architecture. There's no need to lock the Scorpio hardware down to a legacy mode.

you realize xbox360 games are QA'd and approved on a game by game basis to be emulated on xbox one, right?

apples to oranges comparison

 

[TechnicPuppet]

you realize xbox360 games are QA'd and approved on a game by game basis to be emulated on xbox one, right?

apples to oranges comparison

Why couldn't that work with the Pro and Scorpio?

 

[The Albatross]

Prior to the last 6 months I don't think I had ever heard the word 'teraflops,' and now it's everywhere.

 

[Memnoch]

Lame, I would buy a Pro PS4 controller in a second

Yup me too.

 

[LukasTaves]

I got more than 15% right & FP16 does make PS4 Pro a 8.4TF console. it's 8.4 trillion 16-bit floating point operations per second that's not up for debate just because you have become used to FP32 numbers .

The fact that not even sony is making such claims (of Pro being a 8.4tf console) should tell you all you need to know.

Last gen for instance, both Ms and Sony played the non-programmable card to tout their system as 1+TF machines, so they are prone to use misleading numbers if that means increase their console perception.

If fp16 was a big deal you can bet you'd see more than a simply footnote saying the gpu supports it.

 

[onQ123]

The fact that not even sony is making such claims (of Pro being a 8.4tf console) should tell you all you need to know.

Last gen for instance, both Ms and Sony played the non-programmable card to tout their system as 1+TF machines, so they are prone to use misleading numbers if that means increase their console perception.

If fp16 was a big deal you can bet you'd see more than a simply footnote saying the gpu supports it.

The fact that it's part of AMD next GPU that hasn't been announced yet means that Sony couldn't go yelling it from the roof top months ago but as you can see they said Cerny was excited about it

But Cerny seemed more excited about another one of these “post-Polaris” features that the PS4 Pro has: a significant improvement in the way it handles 16-bit variables like half-floats.

With the PS4 Pro, said Cerny, “it's possible to perform two 16-bit operations at the same time, instead of one 32-bit operation. In other words, with full floats, PS4 Pro has 4.2 teraflops of computational power. With half floats, it now has double that -- which is to say, 8.4 teraflops of computational power. As I'm sure you understand, this has the potential to radically increase the performance of games.”

(Surely, you understand.)

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/283611/Inside_the_PlayStation_4_Pro_with_Mark_Cerny.php#tophead

 

[Panajev2001a]

The XBox One is compatible with the Xbox 360. I think that alone shows they are far ahead of Sony in the software department.

Nothing to do with emulating a more complex memory setup and a CPU almost 2x as powerful and two different ISA's... nah.. how could that have anything to do with it... /s .

 

[Malakai]

So, for clarification, the PS4 Pro is not using the RX 480, like Eurogamer speculated?

 

[Metfanant]

So, for clarification, the PS4 Pro is not using the RX 480, like Eurogamer speculated?

It's actually using a pretty damn customized setup..it's not a 480...it's not 2 PS4 GPUs stuck together either...

It's got a lot of Polaris features, and a handful of features that are not even available on any off the shelf AMD cards

 

[Self_Destructive]

It's actually using a pretty damn customized setup..it's not a 480...it's not 2 PS4 GPUs stuck together either...

It's got a lot of Polaris features, and a handful of features that are not even available on any off the shelf AMD cards

You might want to watch out with this.. there's a guy on another forum I frequent that is adamant that the Scorpio GPU (not PS4 Pro) is going to be based off the RX480.. and that it wont support any features to improve performance that the RX480 doesn't... since they use the same GCN architecture and CUs...

I argue with him... but it's pointless :shrug:

 

[onQ123]

So, for clarification, the PS4 Pro is not using the RX 480, like Eurogamer speculated?

I think RX 480 was made from what was being used for the PS4 Pro , waste not want not

Also if Polaris 10 isn't basically PS4 GPU @14nm & 2X the CUs why is AMD making a DirectX11 GPU in 2016?

The GPUs that was made for PS4 & Xbox One ended up in PCs also waste not want not.

"A few AMD roadmap features are appearing for the first time in PS4 Pro," Cerny continues, giving a broad overview of how the semi-custom relationship functions.

"How it works is that we sit down with AMD, who are terribly collaborative. It's a real pleasure to work with them. So basically, we go ahead and say how many CUs we want to have and we look at the roadmap features and we look at area and we make some decisions and we even - in this case - have the opportunity, from time to time, to have a feature in our chip before it's in a discrete GPU. We have two of these this time, which is very nice."

And that work feeds back into the Radeon discrete products too, useful in maintaining consistency between PC and console games development. Asynchronous compute, for example, has had a huge benefit for AMD on PC DX12 applications, specifically because of the additional hardware scheduling pipelines championed by Mark Cerny in the PS4 design.

"We can have custom features and they can eventually end up on the [AMD] roadmap," Cerny says proudly. "So the ACEs... I was very passionate about asynchronous compute, so we did a lot of work there for the original PlayStation 4 and that ended up getting incorporated into subsequent AMD GPUs, which is nice because the PC development community gets very familiar with those techniques. It can help us when the parts of GPUs that we are passionate about are used in the PC space."

In actual fact, two new AMD roadmap features debut in the Pro, ahead of their release in upcoming Radeon PC products - presumably the Vega GPUs due either late this year or early next year.

 

[dezzy8]

Cerny give me a fucking elite controller. The DS4 feels like cheap garbage.

 

[Metfanant]

You might want to watch out with this.. there's a guy on another forum I frequent that is adamant that the Scorpio GPU (not PS4 Pro) is going to be based off the RX480.. and that it wont support any features to improve performance that the RX480 doesn't... since they use the same GCN architecture and CUs...

I argue with him... but it's pointless :shrug:

lol...in the case of the PS4P it's a simple fact...that GPU is not a 480...period lol

I highly doubt the Scorpio will be running an off the shelf GPU either. In fact I'd be shocked if it wasn't customized in some way

 

[adamsapple]

Cerny give me a fucking elite controller. The DS4 feels like cheap garbage.

Can anyone with the Slim and the 'new' DS4 confirm whether the sticks are better than before ?

 

[GhostTrick]

I think RX 480 was made from what was being used for the PS4 Pro , waste not want not

Yeah, what about all of the others GPU ?
Whoops, it's like AMD offers a wiiiiide range of GPUs, going from 4 CU to 64 CUs. There's no "AMD made a GPU for PS4, XB1, PS4 Pro and used them for PC". AMD and Nvidia both have scalable architectures which they deploy in a big range of configurations. Sony and Microsoft just shop what they want for their own business.

And RX480 supports DX12. How about that ?

Weren't you saying PS4 Pro was using two GPUs btw ?? :")

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Since Sony isn't do it. What third party developer can make a good "elite" controller for PS4 Pro? Razor, MadCatz (LOL).