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[FarFromAnyGame]

Good job advertising your 4k console.

He's not advertising. It's not his job to advertise and mislead people.
He's being honest.

 

[onQ123]

Let me see if i can help you out.

You know like a console that is designed to run every game at 4K, no checkerboard rendering, no big compromises in graphics fidelity.

If that doesn't help.

He's been developing games for some decades now. He's assisted in almost every Sony first party game. He's the lead system architect of PS Vita, PS4, PS4 Pro and I'll bet PS5.

So nice try?

It's getting scary I think Mark Cerny hacked into my account


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=210440265&postcount=1661

 

[Trace]

It's not that NV flops are "doing more". It's just simply that theoretical flops are just that, theoretical. They're they theoretical max a chip can perform at. In reality, you're never going to reach theo max. Inefficiencies in architectural design and other things will always hinder performance.

Nvidias recent architectures are very strong and efficient, but it doesn't equate to their flops being better in general vs amd. It just means that chip is a good chip and peforms great.

Well yea that's why using a teraflop as a method of comparing non-equivalent cards is shitty.

 

[etta]

Let me see if i can help you out.

You know like a console that is designed to run every game at 4K, no checkerboard rendering, no big compromises in graphics fidelity.

If that doesn't help.

He's been developing games for some decades now. He's assisted in almost every Sony first party game. He's the lead system architect of PS Vita, PS4, PS4 Pro and I'll bet PS5.

So nice try?

Etta or Mark Cerny. Who is more likely to know what they are talking about?

Like clockwork.

I don't think he's referring to current gen gaming at medium settings at 30fps for certain when he says "4K gaming" in the sense he's talking about.

I really dislike how transparent you have been in most threads recently, quit it.

Excuse you? Find a hole in my argument.

Here's what console gaming is in general:
Medium-high settings
30fps

Unless you were somehow expecting a one refresh jump to go from a 1080p/30 standard to 4K/60 standard?
Lol, they haven't even set 1080p/60 as the standard this gen, you expect him to refer to 4K/60?

 

[Fredrik]

Quite simple.
They didn't hide in any way the fact that with the Pro in most games you won't get native 4K.
They talked abundantly about their reconstrution/upscaling techniques to make it look as close as native 4K as possible.
So the only new detail that he's adding is that not even Scorpio will be able to render most games in native 4K but we'll need to wait for PS5 to make 4K the standard native resolution for games.

The timing is terrible though, they already have trouble to get people to invest in PS4 Pro and with his comment it looks even more as a rushed stop-gap console than before.

 

[dogen]

Don't FPS games always been 60fps (or targetting at) since the last gen? There's also resolution compromise to reach 60fps on current-gen 60fps games like CoD & Battlefield, even Doom. They go lower than native 1080p with dynamic resolution. I may be off, as I don't really follow FPS games these days.

You were talking about CPUs though.

 

[Astral Dog]

Infinite ram would be ideal, but you have to think very hard about where you're going to make cost and complexity tradeoffs. GDDR5 memory is more expensive than DDR4, and we now have the GDDR5x and HBM2 standards, as well as the upcoming GDDR6 and HBM3 to contend with. Much higher bandwidth, but also more expensive technologies will be attractive from a performance perspective. The PS4 / XBO seem to be bandwidth constrained in some scenarios more than they are memory size constrained. And texture quality this generation has really been quite good.

The PS4 and XBO sacrificed CPU performance to a really high degree and I'd rather see them work on that then focus on putting a stupidly high amount of system memory in, which, frankly, we don't "need", especially not when the file sizes of games are already so close to the limits of physical media and data caps.

Also worth noting that the PS4 and XBO both represent a slowing in the pace of technological development. They achieved a "normal" ram bump and GPU power increase... but were very underwhelming on the CPU front and took 7-8 years to come out, instead of the usual 4-5. No reason to expect that we're going to get another 16x increase just based on that alone.

Agree its not about the size of memory anymore getting in the way of gameplay systems, detailed characters and environments on ambitious open worlds, but now we have other things that cant keep up, like the CPU on the new gaming systems, budgets and bandwith for 1080p.

there will always be a need for optimization, just as there will always be trade offs.

 

[texhnolyze]

You were talking about CPUs though.

Framerates is highly affected by CPU power. Especially if you're targeting 60fps.

 

[Renekton]

Also worth noting that the PS4 and XBO both represent a slowing in the pace of technological development. They achieved a "normal" ram bump and GPU power increase... but were very underwhelming on the CPU front and took 7-8 years to come out, instead of the usual 4-5. No reason to expect that we're going to get another 16x increase just based on that alone.

28nm was actually a very good node and a solid jump from 90nm.

It just so happened both Sony and MS were reeling from big HW losses and thus went cheap semi custom.

Also the only viable vendor was AMD which had a poor run of CPU designs. At least in hindsight Southern Islands was superior to Kepler.

 

[shounenka]

Two points for what it's worth.

The second bit is not Cerney speaking; it's the author of the article, a tech journalist.

Translation:
Cerney says that "If one were to render [graphics/visuals] in 4K natively, while this is a personal estimate, a minimum of 8 teraflops [of power] would likely be necessary." That technology is not something that can be utilized at a reasonable price; not this year, anyhow.

Second point: Why is this something negative? The PS4 Pro makes gaming in 4K (albeit not natively) both possible AND affordable at this point in time. I don't think Sony claimed anything different.

 

[dogen]

Framerates is highly affected by CPU power. Especially if you're targeting 60fps.

Yeah.. I know. But if battlefront and doom can do it, why couldn't most games do it with a 30% faster CPU?

 

[Trace]

Yeah.. I know. But if battlefront or doom can do it, why couldn't most games do it with a 30% faster CPU?

Because those are both proprietary engines designed around reaching 60 fps as much as possible.

 

[Inuhanyou]

The timing is terrible though, they already have trouble to get people to invest in PS4 Pro and with his comment it looks even more as a rushed stop-gap console than before.

It is a stop gap console, that was what it was designed as. Its not rushed though.

 

[onQ123]

The timing is terrible though, they already have trouble to get people to invest in PS4 Pro and with his comment it looks even more as a rushed stop-gap console than before.

No they don't PS4 Pro will continue to sell like PS4 has already been selling & the pro will keep the platform from dropping off so soon.

 

[dogen]

Because those are both proprietary engines designed around reaching 60 fps as much as possible.

Right, but they're able to do quite a lot with the CPU at 60 fps. I'm not saying it didn't take a lot of work, only that it's probably doable for most games in theory.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Right, but they're able to do quite a lot with the CPU at 60 fps. I'm not saying it didn't take a lot of work, only that it's probably doable for most games in theory.

60fps is doable for plenty of games. But the engines and games themselves have to be designed for running 60fps and be scalable enough on the hardware to do that. Otherwise, its not going to be possible.

 

[Izuna]

is this a way to say, scorpio won't either so come to pro?

 

[TheGreyHulk]

Well yea that's why using a teraflop as a method of comparing non-equivalent cards is shitty.

fully agree.

 

[Tripolygon]

Like clockwork.

Excuse you? Find a hole in my argument.

Here's what console gaming is in general:
Medium-high settings
30fps

I just love getting into it with you, its fun. And you said something ridiculous, like a reasonable comprehension of what he says would be "a system that is designed to run every game at 4K".

Your comprehension is "no system under 8TF can run 4K games". Any system can run 4K if you reduce graphical fidelity enough. Even PS4 Pro which is a 4.2TF console has native 4K games.

Console gaming is, affordable price and developers find a balance between good graphics and acceptable performance.

 

[Aalvi]

I don't get why they are trying to push for 4K when we currently seem to be struggling for 1080p

 

[Tripolygon]

I don't get why they are trying to push for 4K when we currently seem to be struggling for 1080p

Most games this gen are 1080p.

 

[texhnolyze]

Most games this gen are 1080p.

With dips to below 30fps. He/she's not wrong.

 

[Inuhanyou]

With dips to below 30fps. He/she's not wrong.

fps on average is far more consistent than any time last gen on PS4 with far more native titles. Its disingenuous to state when locked 60fps has never generally been a thing outside of Nintendo consoles. Certainly not for the past 20 years atleast.

I don't get why they are trying to push for 4K when we currently seem to be struggling for 1080p

They are not pushing 4K in itself, but higher resolutions to better scale to 4K televisions. That's the difference.

And even then, developers are free to make higher fidelity modes at the current res we have. But they wont because that is more investment into an optional iterative machine than just bringing up the framebuffer.

 

[RedRum]

With dips to below 30fps. He/she's not wrong.

Yup.

I'm excited for the 4K push, but consoles need to master 1080p + locked framerates.

 

[TheGreyHulk]

I don't get why they are trying to push for 4K when we currently seem to be struggling for 1080p

It's their strongest selling point. 4K tvs are picking up in sales and they want something to sell to those guys buying 4k tvs.

Im all for 1080p performance to the max as that's the vast majority of consumers out there.

 

[Tripolygon]

With dips to below 30fps. He/she's not wrong.

I believe he said we are struggling for 1080p this gen. We aren't, most games this gen are 1080p so he or she is wrong. As for performance, I haven't measured every game to know if all of them are hitting their target or not.

 

[EatinOlives]

4k is serious business in terms of the horsepower needed.

Methinks that both Sony and MS have chosen a really difficult path for themselves in trying to chase that particular bullet point. They both know they'll fall short of native 4K rendering and are loading their """4K""" boxes with asterisks all over.

Time will tell whether this pays off but personally the prospect of buying a 4K TV in the future and getting a """4K""" box only to get decidedly non-4K content on it sounds like really not the best use of my money. I doubt I'm the only one on that train either.

 

[krang]

So in trying to piss on the competition, he ends up shitting on his own doorstep.

I get what he's saying, but eesh, that's not a great way of doing it.

 

[mrklaw]

The timing is terrible though, they already have trouble to get people to invest in PS4 Pro and with his comment it looks even more as a rushed stop-gap console than before.

Why? This is very smart wording

- they have been clear about not being 4K native for all games, and talking about their reconstruction techniques to benefit from the increased resolution with lower performance overhead

- MS have been recently vocal about Scorpio and 4K and 6TF

- Cerny comes out and says you need at least 8TF

To me that basically says 'even those guys will be using software tricks to hit 4K some of the time, so why wait for that when you can get similar now?'

 

[Matt]

Sounds about right.

 

[etta]

Why? This is very smart wording

- they have been clear about not being 4K native for all games, and talking about their reconstruction techniques to benefit from the increased resolution with lower performance overhead

- MS have been recently vocal about Scorpio and 4K and 6TF

- Cerny comes out and says you need at least 8TF

To me that basically says 'even those guys will be using software tricks to hit 4K some of the time, so why wait for that when you can get similar now?'

That'd fly if Microsoft was coy and said 4K gaming with a bunch of asterisks, but they haven't, they've made sure to say native 4K and true 4K.

 

[texhnolyze]

fps on average is far more consistent than any time last gen on PS4 with far more native titles. Its disingenuous to state when locked 60fps has never generally been a thing outside of Nintendo consoles. Certainly not for the past 20 years atleast.

Yeah, it's much better than previous gen, at least.

I believe he said we are struggling for 1080p this gen. We aren't, most games this gen are 1080p so he or she is wrong. As for performance, I haven't measured every game to know if all of them are hitting their target or not.

But it's related. What if they settle for 900p instead? Achieving locked 30fps will be easier then.

 

[Matt]

That'd fly if Microsoft was coy and said 4K gaming with a bunch of asterisks, but they haven't, they've made sure to say native 4K and true 4K.

I very much doubt every Scorpio game will be "native and true 4K."

Very much.

 

[Dredd97]

That'd fly if Microsoft was coy and said 4K gaming with a bunch of asterisks, but they haven't, they've made sure to say native 4K and true 4K.

which is very easy to say when you don't have a product to show...

sure it's Microsoft and not the infamous phantom console, but it's just marketing and hype at the moment.. and the Scorpio isn't going to be delivering every single game at 'true 4k'

 

[etta]

I very much doubt every Scorpio game will be "native and true 4K."

And certainly not 4K/60.

which is very easy to say when you don't have a product to show...

sure it's Microsoft and not the infamous phantom console, but it's just marketing and hype at the moment.. and the Scorpio isn't going to be delivering every single game at 'true 4k'

I don't get what your point is, the Scorpio will deliver native 4K as much as the PS4 delivers 1080p now. Developers still have first choice, Sony studios however are focusing on getting 1080p on PS4.

 

[Sjefen]

He arguement sounds reasonable. I hope PS5 will have alot more headroom than the minimum teraflops needed, would be nice to have some 4K 60Fps games.

 

[Widge]

Essentially it seems that he is saying that hitting 4K isn't really a currently achievable aim for either of the upcoming consoles, which is a decent gambit considering the adoption of the TVs is far from mainstream. This positions the PS4 Pro as an affordable stop gap that bridges that awkward invetweeny stage. By the time technology comes around that makes a decent 4K console achievable, PS5 territory. Makes Scorpio then sound like a niche extravagance.

 

[Tripolygon]

Why? This is very smart wording

- they have been clear about not being 4K native for all games, and talking about their reconstruction techniques to benefit from the increased resolution with lower performance overhead

- MS have been recently vocal about Scorpio and 4K and 6TF

- Cerny comes out and says you need at least 8TF

To me that basically says 'even those guys will be using software tricks to hit 4K some of the time, so why wait for that when you can get similar now?'

Actually you are reading far too much into that statement than it is actually worth.

The conversation went like this

We have kept the price of PS4 Pro the same as PS4 at launch and it is up to people to determine if it is worth that. It is difficult to price it higher than that and despite it being double the performance, the size by volume only increased by 19%

In order to launch a console that can produce 4K quality games this year at an affordable price, we believe this is the best.

To render 4K natively across the board, it is my personal estimate that you need 8TF minimum, but we cannot launch a system that powerful this year at an affordable price.

 

[TLZ]

Good job advertising your 4k console.

The guy's being honest. Unless you enjoy being lied to then cry how misleading they are.

 

[c0de]

rofl why would he say this with the pro about to come out?

fp16

 

[ShirAhava]

8TLOP PS5 IN 2019 w/ PSVR2? cool I'll wait thx Cerny

 

[darkwing]

PS5 will be glorious

 

[Malcolm9]

I like the fact Cerney is honest about the whole thing, good man.

 

[Withnail]

Actually you are reading far too much into that statement than it is actually worth.

The conversation went like this

Seems pretty straightforward to me, thanks.

Edit: but since this is GAF I guess I should ignore the "native across the board" qualifier and claim this is Cerny going rogue.

fp16

Lol no.

 

[Nightengale]

fp16

Except he explicitly said in the interview Pro isn't the console that can hit his 8TF forecast either.

 

[big_z]

which is very easy to say when you don't have a product to show...

sure it's Microsoft and not the infamous phantom console, but it's just marketing and hype at the moment.. and the Scorpio isn't going to be delivering every single game at 'true 4k'

Microsoft's goal is 6TF minimum, who knows the final product might be more. Phil has also already said first party will be 4k but third party developers are free to use the horsepower as they see fit.

Arguing over flops to resolution doesn't really matter in the end anyways. A machine could have 40TF and there will always be a developer out there dropping frame rate and resolution to achieve better eye candy.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

He's absolutely right.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

rofl why would he say this with the pro about to come out?

Why not, better to be honest up front than get all the "I bought a 4K machine, where's mah 4K?" People keeping up to date with the situation already know that the PS4P will not be pushing native 4K on most big games, there are a few current gen hitting that but it's not going to be the standard. From what we've read thought this doesn't matter too much as the checkerboard rendering seems to be a great solution to get to a 4K output.

 

[jdstorm]

is this a way to say, scorpio won't either so come to pro?

Thats what i took it as

 

[Sanctuary]

That said, users will be able to discern the difference between games on PS4 and the improved versions on PS4 pro at a glance.

Mainly because unless you are using a 4K monitor, or aren't sitting two or three feet away from a TV (or have a 100'' set), you aren't going to be able to tell much of a difference between 1440p and 2160p, while it is easy enough to tell the difference between 1080p and 1440p. HDR is going to be the biggest benefit of the Pro anyway, aside from of course making 1080p games not look like garbage on a 4K screen.