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[LionPride]

No, people are being critical of her making a very vague comment that really has no grounds in reality. The very fact that people are trying to soften her "maim and dump" comment into something entirely different just shows how bad it was.

We gonna act like the industry doesn't have a misogyny issue tho? Like for real?

 

[Lime]

What are the game companies supposed to do? They can't stop hateful people from gathering on another platform and harassing people. Even policing their own games would require a large amount of resources and any system they create would for sure be abused.

If they use their status and power to signal and promote diversity and inclusivity and appreciation for other identities
If they go out and publicly support prominent women
If they explicitly scout for more women in their offices
If they promise to protect and take care of women in their online spaces
If they implement features to ensure safe online spaces where harassment is minimized
If they don't use misogyny in their products to sell more to a constructed consumer audience that don't exist
If they explicitly condemn hate movements like Gamergate when they arise
If they have more women present in their marketing and in their conference presentations
If they have more female characters in the products that aren't designed to appease straight dude

And of course, this isn't just women as a single category - it's across gender, race, sexuality, ability, nationality, and class.

 

[Dame]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

I can hazard a couple of guesses in the realm of this: a light example is spelunky. they give you a damsel with breast physics that you literally can chuck at walls to break them, hence the dumping part, i can only surmise.
Their idea of making her equal wasn't to remove that aspect, but add a chip,n,dales character you could do the same to because "equality", i guess.

There are many examples though, in one of the Hitman games, if you use a sniper scope, you get rewarded with seeing a woman do a lap dance/stripping. To whom, i have no idea. Oh yeaa, there was that god of war 3 segment too. Didn't know how to feel personally after that part myself.

Thanks Gaf for addressing this maturely and not going "but the wymen wanna take my bikini armour in ma games!!They're the real sexists!" It's a nice reprieve from the rest of the internet.

 

[psychowave]

I love people defending "artistic freedom" on a forum where games get trashed if they run at less than 60 frames per second. I mean, isn't that a valid artistic choice, too? You're ruining the developer's vision, people.

 

[Freeman]

You can't fuck or sexually harass men in GTA (while in control). You can fuck and sexually harass women in GTA and you get rewarded by it.

No? Then I was mistaken. I was under the impression there were male prostitutes in GTA games.

 

[Lime]

In political debate abuse goes both ways, death threats are not exclusive to woman or gamergate for that matter. Police should start locking people up for those threats, with that I can agree, has nothing to do with the content of games.

Arguing what does that have to do with games?

You're on a Gaming forum. In a thread about the games industry's lack of action against the sexism in video games. And now you cannot understand what this has to do with games, when your previous post even mention freaking Gamergate?

 

[Basketball]

In terms of male protistutes in GTA

None of the protags of GTA have been gay

Trevor has some undertones but the very first thing we see of him is fucking a junky chick.

 

[Madame M]

And of course, this isn't just women as a single category - it's across... ability...

I'd play Mario Hoops 3 on 3 Wheelchair Basketball

 

[Zakalwe]

You're on a Gaming forum. In a thread about the games industry's lack of action against the sexism in video games. And now you cannot understand what this has to do with games, when your previous post even mention freaking Gamergate?

Ignore whoever it is. It's more than apparent now, as you say.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Oft-times it's important to bring up stuff like that though. To point out the latent sexism that can exist. The ME thing, I think is just fucking stupidly designed. It shouldn't have been an option. The sexism angle is, do you get that option for any other annoying NPC? Why was that NPC in ME a woman filling the annoying, aggressive ("bitch" if you will, I've seen it being said about that particular character numerous times) role? For me the sexism isn't solely the punch, but it's the characterisation of *just* that character that leads up to that specific thing happening.

I really disagree about the ME scene. We can't really say anything about why there isn't a punching option for the other NPCs, there could be any number of reasons, perhaps they just wanted to have it just once. Scenes and interactions between characters differ, and I really don't think that there's anything you could infer from there beyond speculation. "An annoying, aggressive woman" is how you describe the "bitch" stereotype as it applies to the reporter character. Do you realize what a broad brush that is? The reporter is a character that is annoying, aggressive and too insistent on talking to Shepard. The reporter also happens to be a woman. "Why is the bitchy reporter character a woman?" is the wrong question to ask, because it assumes that such characters can't/shouldn't be women in the first place, and that's a baseless assumption. Being female influences nothing about the character of the reporter, so "why is this NPC female?" is also a pointless question because there isn't necessarily a reason any more than asking "why isn't her dress bright yellow?". Regarding the "the developers should have fleshed out the character better" argument, it doesn't apply to this case IMHO- the reporter is a rather minor character, and moreover, is just some reporter who has no canonical reason to be involved in any different manner with Shepard.

The reporter, annoying characters, negatively portrayed characters, or shallow characters do not need to justify being female. The "Why is X female?" question acts as if there has to be a reason for the character to be female, aa if she can't just be designed as a woman... Simply because that's how she was designed. I find that mentality more detrimental than (violence towards) a minor, annoying character,to be perfectly honest.

(lil edit: violence towards a minor AND annoying character, not violence towards minors, jesus christ)

 

[Madame M]

In terms of male protistutes in GTA

None of the protags of GTA have been gay

Trevor has some undertones but the very first thing we see of him is fucking a junky chick.

You can still beat up and kill male prostitutes if the character doesn't himself have sex with them.

Also maybe the main characters aren't "gay" but they're just men who have sex with men. According to CDC statistics there are three times as many people who are men who have sex with men but are not "gay."

 

[Mael]

In terms of male protistutes in GTA

None of the protags of GTA have been gay

Trevor has some undertones but the very first thing we see of him is fucking a junky chick.

None of the characters are depicted as anything but human and they still go back from the hospital with a slap on the wrist everytime they bungy jump without parachute either.
The games don't really care that they could do something out of character in the open sandbox they provide.

 

[GonzoCR]

I love people defending "artistic freedom" on a forum where games get trashed if they run at less than 60 frames per second. I mean, isn't that a valid artistic choice, too? You're ruining the developer's vision, people.

Artistic vision only applies to waifus and killing prostitutes in GTA, didn't you know? /s

While I agree with some people that "maim and dump" was perhaps a poorly chosen frase, if she had listed any examples in particular it'd just be labeled nit-picking. You can't get through to people who don't wanna listen.

 

[Freeman]

You're on a Gaming forum. In a thread about the games industry's lack of action against the sexism in video games. And now you cannot understand what this has to do with games, when your previous post even mention freaking Gamergate?

Just because games have become a political battleground doesn't mean games themselves have anything to do with it.

What we have is feminists/leftists, etc duking it out with with whatever group composes gamergate(man rights, anti-feminists or whatever) and using games as an excuse.

Just as in the past we had religious/conservatives attacking what the youth liked ignoring what games were really doing.

 

[Basketball]

You can still beat up and kill male prostitutes if the character doesn't himself have sex with them.

Also maybe the main characters aren't "gay" but they're just men who have sex with men. According to CDC statistics there are three times as many people who are men who have sex with men but are not "gay."

That be cool if more kinds of civilians were in the game
Okay so what's the issue

That the characters are straight and can fuck women prostitutes

or fact that prostitutes like all civilians in the game are killable.

If the issue is the prostitution itself is the problem then I don't know what to tell you
Rockstar wanted to make a loony/satirical version of real life and real life has prostitutes and cop killers and drugs and fast food commercials.

 

[Funyarinpa]

None of the characters are depicted as anything but human and they still go back from the hospital with a slap on the wrist everytime they bungy jump without parachute either.
The games don't really care that they could do something out of character in the open sandbox they provide.

I don't think that it's an issue that you can't call male prostitutes but I agree witht his post that it might as well happen and that would be just fine.

 

[Branduil]

Man all the posts in this thread pretending they didn't realize she was referring to GTA are hilarious.

"Huh I never heard of any game where you can kill women and dump their bodies... Must be referring to one of them weirdo Japanese games"

 

[Madame M]

Okay so what's the issue

That the characters are straight and can fuck women prostitutes

or fact that prostitutes like all civilians in the game are killable.

If the issue is the prostitution itself is the problem then I don't know what to tell you
Rockstar wanted to make a loony/satirical version of real life and real life has prostitutes and cop killers and drugs and fast food commercials.

I thought the issue was clear, there are no male prostitutes when the world is filled with male prostitutes

 

[LionPride]

Just because games have become a political battleground doesn't mean games themselves have anything to do with it.

What we have is feminists/leftists, etc duking it out with with whatever group composes gamergate(man rights, anti-feminists or whatever) and using games as an excuse.

Just as in the past we had religious/conservatives attacking what the youth liked ignoring what games were really doing.

Bruh, you gonna act as if the industry doesn't have a problem tho?

 

[EventHorizon]

What do you think the article you quoted represents exactly?

I think it is taking the view that traditional male gamers feel assaulted because their niche group has expanded beyond its former narrow grounds to include women. That they feel the need to label the "true" gamers from the fake ones in order to maintain their identity when most gamers are women. Then there is some chest thumping from the author about how their side is winning and the the gamers are right to be worried.

My view is this. Women and men gamers really are different on average. I make this distinction not out of some insecurity, but from my own observations and from studies I've seen. There is nothing wrong with games catering to these very different demands. The problem I have with the feminist movement is when it goes too far and denies the reality that is plainly clear to see.

On the other hand, I fully agree that women get subjected to abuse that I am probably not fully aware of. I will also grant that what they go through is far worse than any slight I perceive by being falsely lumped in with those doing the abuse. With that said, I don't have have to pretend that I am ok with everything they say. I can speak up like I'm doing right now, or I can tune out as I mostly did with gamergate.

 

[Funyarinpa]

I thought the issue was clear, there are no male prostitutes when the world is filled with male prostitutes

Haven't played much of GTA myself so bear with me here, but do you encounter female prostitutes outside of when you explicitly call for one in GTA?

 

[Mael]

I don't think that it's an issue that you can't call male prostitutes but I agree witht his post that it might as well happen and that would be just fine.

If they cut the female prostitute "usage" it would be fine and they could explain it away easily.
Heck with how many lawmakers that have been "surprised" with male escorts, it's not something that would be unexpected either.
It doesn't fit with GTA sexist depiction of its setting but that's another topic entirely.

Haven't played much of GTA myself so bear with me here, but do you encounter female prostitutes outside of when you explicitly call for one in GTA?

There's prostitutes you can call outside, it's part of the scenery.
I imagine that in the newest versions you can call them and have a dedicated brothel to interact with.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I really disagree about the ME scene. We can't really say anything about why there isn't a punching option for the other NPCs, there could be any number of reasons, perhaps they just wanted to have it just once. Scenes and interactions between characters differ, and I really don't think that there's anything you could infer from there beyond speculation. "An annoying, aggressive woman" is how you describe the "bitch" stereotype as it applies to the reporter character. Do you realize what a broad brush that is? The reporter is a character that is annoying, aggressive and too insistent on talking to Shepard. The reporter also happens to be a woman. "Why is the bitchy reporter character a woman?" is the wrong question to ask, because it assumes that such characters can't/shouldn't be women in the first place, and that's a baseless assumption. Being female influences nothing about the character of the reporter, so "why is this NPC female?" is also a pointless question because there isn't necessarily a reason any more than asking "why isn't her dress bright yellow?". Regarding the "the developers should have fleshed out the character better" argument, it doesn't apply to this case IMHO- the reporter is a rather minor character, and moreover, is just some reporter who has no canonical reason to be involved in any different manner with Shepard.

The reporter, annoying characters, negatively portrayed characters, or shallow characters do not need to justify being female. The "Why is X female?" question acts as if there has to be a reason for the character to be female, aa if she can't just be designed as a woman... Simply because that's how she was designed. I find that mentality more detrimental than (violence towards) a minor, annoying character,to be perfectly honest.

(lil edit: violence towards a minor AND annoying character, not violence towards minors, jesus christ)

The "bitch" is a well defined (and sexist) trope in all forms of media, that character fits into that trope and, like you said, just so happens to be a woman. My position isn't " hang bioware for being sexist" but rather I hope they see why that is an issue to some people and try work harder at avoiding those common pitfalls. As I said it's latent and not malicious. I don't think they deliberately did it, but dang I'll call it out as a sexist trope and hope they do better.

lol yeah I read violence towards minors at first. Had to do a double take.

 

[Basketball]

I thought the issue was clear, there are no male prostitutes when the world is filled with male prostitutes

Forgive me for my ignorance about male prostitution

Do males in real life stand on corners like female sex workers ?

You can go downtown in most cities in the US and you will see women like this.
Just like the one's depicted in gta

I thought most male prostitutes operate using the web and private ways.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Forgive me for my ignorance about male prostitution

Do males in real life stand on corners like female sex workers ?

You can go downtown in most cities in the US and you will see women like this.

I thought most male prostitutes operated using the web and private ways.

Some do, some don't. Around bars and clubs mostly. I suppose it's not as obvious because we're trained to mostly see women as prostitutes.

 

[Madame M]

Haven't played much of GTA myself so bear with me here, but do you encounter female prostitutes outside of when you explicitly call for one in GTA?

It's been a while since I've played GTA, Vice City was my last one actually, but I think you encounter them in the street without summoning them. Not sure about the newer ones.

I'm not sure why that would matter though, why shouldn't you be able to summon a male prostitute to maim and kill just like the female ones?

The real gender equality issue is including male prostitutes to maim and kill and have sex with if the character is either gay or a man who has sex with men. I'm not sure that any GTA game goes on to explicitly reveal the main character's sexual orientation.

 

[The_Endgamer]

Most games exploit women where women are typified as being problematic with tropes such as being kidnapped, helpless, sexualised and more.

The sexualisation in Japanese games too doesn't help but where they have sexualisation, western devs like to use violence/blood/gore as a hook to get gamers in.

She's not wrong.

 

[Madame M]

Forgive me for my ignorance about male prostitution

Do males in real life stand on corners like female sex workers ?

You can go downtown in most cities in the US and you will see women like this.
Just like the one's depicted in gta

I thought most male prostitutes operate using the web and private ways.

Yes, males work street corners too.

And, most female prostitutes operate using the web and private means.

 

[Freeman]

Bruh, you gonna act as if the industry doesn't have a problem tho?

Bruh It has I suppose, just as it has one with violence, bad story telling, lack of creativity, diversity, lack of technical standards, etc. What we can do is support the ones we think are good an hope there are enough people that share the same taste.

I think there is enough diversity so that you can find good games that don't have that. It would be great to have more but I'm sure it isn't for lack of trying as just being alive as a studio is hard enough.

 

[RoboticWater]

I'm going to bow out of the discussion before I verbally abuse that kind of stupid behavior on display.

But why verbal abuse? That's the problem. We shouldn't even consider verbal abuse to be the response no matter what. What I saw happening was verbal abuse on both sides. The harassment against women was, obviously, worse, but that's not the debate.

There's no such a thing as Anti-GG.
There's GG and the rest of the world that watched in utter disbelief.

I've seen the term thrown around quite a lot. My understanding is that it's attributed to those who directly and verbally addressed GamerGate (or otherwise associated with the name), and the rest were neutral.

If you're saying that there isn't an Anti-GG, where would you place yourself and me? Clearly, we don't have the same assessment of the situation.

Any attempt at federating the non GG crowd failed because there's no such a thing, unlike the GG crowd that is roughly just the video game themed altright these days.

I don't see why it would have failed. There seems to be more than enough opposition to me, and I'm quite neutral.

Some people were shitty to some other GG people but that's not the point.

But that's precisely my point. Harassment isn't irrelevant just because your people are the ones who did it. No, I'm not about to make an argument about how "GG was harassed just as much." Of course they weren't. My intent was to point out that there can reasonably be a nuanced take on GamerGate.

GG was a coordinated effort to push women out of gaming, there's nothing about journalism at its core.
Hence why they chose to go against Zoe Quinn and not the alleged journalist they accused of impropriety.

It doesn't matter what was at the core; we've established that it was a harassment campaign. I'm debating whether a nuanced view is viable at all, which, of course, it is. I believe that ethics ins games journalism is a problem, as do many others. I'm certain that many of those others may have identified as GamerGate because of that opinion, TotalBiscuit being a predominant one. Taking that into account, I must conclude that not all of those who identified with GamerGate were misogynist trolls.

Talk about ethics in journalism was drown because of the GG shit.
There was a topic here about it that took a break for nearly half a year because any mention of ethic or journalism was drowned by idiots talking about that shitty movement.
When the conversation was steered toward ACTUAL impropriety in the gaming industry the same GG shitheads went on about how it wasn't about gaming journalism anymore or some BS. There's a reason "actually it's about ethics in..." is a meme these days.

NeoGaf isn't exactly neutral nor especially well-tempered. I'm not surprised

You misread the "Gamers are over" article, reread it or have someone explain it to you because you clearly didn't understand it.

It's been a while, but my impressions were that it was a knee-jerk overreaction that painted "gamers" with far too wide a brush, claiming they were childish misogynistic. That there was media at all affixing negative connotations to gamers as a whole or even on the large is absurd to me. Responding to harassment by alienating everyone isn't helpful.

Go do some research and come back instead of spouting nonsense, we provided you with some material if you wanted to educate yourself further.
Stop this shit it's not funny.

Why do you think I'm kidding? What about my view is so absurd? It shouldn't be so unintuitive a notion that good people could unknowingly join a bad movement and vice versa. That's all I ever wanted to say.

 

[Mael]

Before I get banned for insulting RoboticWater, I'm just going to point him to this thread.
On the 1rst page there is everything you need to know about the goals and origins of the movement.
If you don't want to educate yourself on the matter or even provide anything substantial I'm not going to waste time trying to make something fit in that head.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[ironmang]

If they use their status and power to signal and promote diversity and inclusivity and appreciation for other identities
If they go out and publicly support prominent women
If they explicitly scout for more women in their offices
If they promise to protect and take care of women in their online spaces
If they implement features to ensure safe online spaces where harassment is minimized
If they don't use misogyny in their products to sell more to a constructed consumer audience that don't exist
If they explicitly condemn hate movements like Gamergate when they arise
If they have more women present in their marketing and in their conference presentations
If they have more female characters in the products that aren't designed to appease straight dude

And of course, this isn't just women as a single category - it's across gender, race, sexuality, ability, nationality, and class.

Speaking out against gamergate and other hateful groups is really all you should ask for or expect. Calling them hypocrites and part of the problem for not meeting a list of demands doesn't help anybody.

Sure, I'd love to have more middle eastern men as playable characters instead of mowing them down all the time but I'm not going to hate on game companies for doing what keeps their employees paid and business afloat.

Also, I still don't see how they're expected to police online in game when twitter and youtube can't do it on a much simpler platform. Do you want them to pay people to specifically watch thousands of game matches that are being reported? We both know a system like that would get abused with people getting constantly reported whether or not they're harassing anybody.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

If anyone identified as a GamerGater because of ethics in journalism, they had the wool pulled over their eyes. Simple as, really.

 

[Funyarinpa]

It's been a while since I've played GTA, Vice City was my last one actually, but I think you encounter them in the street without summoning them. Not sure about the newer ones.

I'm not sure why that would matter though, why shouldn't you be able to summon a male prostitute to maim and kill just like the female ones?

The real gender equality issue is including male prostitutes to maim and kill and have sex with if the character is either gay or a man who has sex with men. I'm not sure that any GTA game goes on to explicitly reveal the main character's sexual orientation.

Eh, I asked it because if the character(s) just isn't interested in male prostitutes and you only see prostitutes when you call them, perhaps the reason the player never sees male prostitutes is because the protagonist never calls for one. As for why they wouldn't call upon male prostitutes, the only thing that comes to mind beyond speculation or "simply designed that way, arbitrarily" or "just an oversight" is that a satirical depiction of American culture like one in GTA would have a protagonist who "has a lot of chicks" and stuff (you know, the type with some girls always fawning over them).

Regarding the ME scene: I have a question SomedayTheFire. Do you think it's possible to design an aggressive, insistent and annoying female character without falling into the "bitch" stereotype? Because I can't distinguish anything between the reporter character and the sum of these three traits. With any more distinct/strict stereotype I feel that I would agree, but if that's all it needs for a female character to become a sexist stereotype then I find little point in worrying over it (because honestly, those three traits are too little to be called a stereotype IMHO). And regardless, I think the punch scene is okay. It's okay to let the protagonist do wrong or harmful things.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Eh, I asked it because if the character(s) just isn't interested in male prostitutes and you only see prostitutes when you call them, perhaps the reason the player never sees male prostitutes is because the protagonist never calls for one. As for why they wouldn't call upon male prostitutes, the only thing that comes to mind beyond speculation or "simply designed that way, arbitrarily" or "just an oversight" is that a satirical depiction of American culture like one in GTA would have a protagonist who "has a lot of chicks" and stuff (you know, the type with some girls always fawning over them).

Regarding the ME scene: I have a question. Do you think it's possible to design an aggressive, insistent and annoying female character without falling into the "bitch" stereotype? Because I can't distinguish anything between the reporter character and the sum of these three traits. With any more distinct/strict stereotype I feel that I would agree, but if that's all it needs for a female character to become a sexist stereotype then I find little point in worrying over it (because honestly, those three traits are too little to be called a stereotype IMHO).

I think this was meant for me? I do, the reaction of the other characters plays into the characterisation of the stereotype. One can make an aggressive, insistent female character and have her be treated fairly, whereas in ME, she isn't. She's clocked by the main character (albeit under certain circumstances). I'm probably not doing an amazing job at explaining the trope, but the reactions to the character are, along with the characterisation, part of the stereotype. The "bitch" character is to be hated, like this character is. One can create an aggressive, insistent female character that is to be respected, to be thought of on the same level as the other characters.

 

[Funyarinpa]

I think this was meant for me? I do, the reaction of the other characters plays into the characterisation of the stereotype. One can make an aggressive, insistent female character and have her be treated fairly, whereas in ME, she isn't. She's clocked by the main character (albeit under certain circumstances). I'm probably not doing an amazing job at explaining the trope, but the reactions to the character are, along with the characterisation, part of the stereotype. The "bitch" is to be hated, like this character is. One can create an aggressive, insistent female character that is to be respected, to be thought of on the same level as the other characters.

Then let me add the "annoying" trait. What happens if we're talking about a character who is *supposed* to be annoying?

 

[Madame M]

Eh, I asked it because if the character(s) just isn't interested in male prostitutes and you only see prostitutes when you call them, perhaps the reason the player never sees male prostitutes is because the protagonist never calls for one. As for why they wouldn't call upon male prostitutes, the only thing that comes to mind beyond speculation or "simply designed that way, arbitrarily" or "just an oversight" is that a satirical depiction of American culture like one in GTA would have a protagonist who "has a lot of chicks" and stuff (you know, the type with some girls always fawning over them).

In GTA you can maim and kill a female prostitute without ever having an interest in having sex with them, why not be able to maim and kill a male prostitute on that same basis?

The interest by the protagonist is irrelevant, particularly because as far as I know no iteration of GTA explicitly depicts the protagonist as having a concrete sexual orientation.

The reason the protagonist never sees a male prostitute is because the developers made a conscious decision not to include them.

 

[LionPride]

Bruh It has I suppose, just as it has one with violence, bad story telling, lack of creativity, diversity, lack of technical standards, etc. What we can do is support the ones we think are good an hope there are enough people that share the same taste.

I think there is enough diversity so that you can find good games that don't have that. It would be great to have more but I'm sure it isn't for lack of trying as just being alive as a studio is hard enough.

You can think there is enough diversity, but there isn't. Not in terms of race, not in terms of gender. Women are not treated like men are in the industry, there is sexism in video gaming and it's absurd to act as if there isn't.

 

[SLHellbound]

If they use their status and power to signal and promote diversity and inclusivity and appreciation for other identities
If they go out and publicly support prominent women
If they explicitly scout for more women in their offices
If they promise to protect and take care of women in their online spaces
If they implement features to ensure safe online spaces where harassment is minimized
If they don't use misogyny in their products to sell more to a constructed consumer audience that don't exist
If they explicitly condemn hate movements like Gamergate when they arise
If they have more women present in their marketing and in their conference presentations
If they have more female characters in the products that aren't designed to appease straight dude

And of course, this isn't just women as a single category - it's across gender, race, sexuality, ability, nationality, and class.

The majority of your points I agree with however I have some questions.

If they promise to protect and take care of women in their online spaces
If women are equal why do they need to be protected in online spaces? Do they need male gamers to stand up for them? Why cant they stand up for themselves? Is this not treating female as the weaker sex and therefore also sexist?


If they have more female characters in the products that aren't designed to appease straight dude
These are companies that have stock holders and dont just make games for hell of it. Male gamers make up most of the console and pc space for gaming. Companies make games for the demographics that make them money. Until women start playing games that arent mobile they wont make games for them. Your issue should be female gamers not supporting the games that are Anita approved and not enough females making the games. You want the industry to change, money is the only thing that will change it.

 

[EventHorizon]

The "bitch" is a well defined (and sexist) trope in all forms of media, that character fits into that trope and, like you said, just so happens to be a woman. My position isn't " hang bioware for being sexist" but rather I hope they see why that is an issue to some people and try work harder at avoiding those common pitfalls. As I said it's latent and not malicious. I don't think they deliberately did it, but dang I'll call it out as a sexist trope and hope they do better.

lol yeah I read violence towards minors at first. Had to do a double take.

I understand your point, but that brings up another problem. Doesn't that mean that if the role calls for a jerk reporter, a woman can't be cast to play it. I just watched Die Hard again recently, so this guy is fresh in my mind.

He is an absolute scum reporter in the movie and gets punched in the end for being so. Nobody had a problem with a man playing that role. If it had been cast as a woman I suspect it'd be part of some highlight reel of misogyny or "bitch" roles.

 

[GLAMr]

Gaming, like any male-dominated industry(like construction, military, sport), seems to have a lot of gender issues.

I think the big problem in most contentious issues today is that people can't respectfully disagree. People are so polarised and biased that they can't see the grey areas in between or acknowledge any merit in a differing viewpoint.

By way of personal example, I don't like Anna Sarkeesian. I think she's an opportunistic parasite who is exploiting a serious social issue for financial gain. I fully accept that I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get. However, I agree with a lot of what she has to say, and would adamantly defend her right to say what she has to say. I think anybody who goes online and harasses women who are critical of the gaming industry is a scumbag and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

 

[Funyarinpa]

In GTA you can maim and kill a female prostitute without ever having an interest in having sex with them, why not be able to maim and kill a male prostitute on that same basis?

The interest by the protagonist is irrelevant, particularly because as far as I know no iteration of GTA explicitly depicts the protagonist as having a concrete sexual orientation.

The reason the protagonist never sees a male prostitute is because the developers made a conscious decision not to include them.

Hm, agreed. I was just explaining why I thought it wasn't a problem so far, I'm all for having it from now on.

 

[psychowave]

The majority of your points I agree with however I have some questions.

If they promise to protect and take care of women in their online spaces
If women are equal why do they need to be protected in online spaces? Do they need male gamers to stand up for them? Why cant they stand up for themselves? Is this not treating female as the weaker sex and therefore also sexist?


If they have more female characters in the products that aren't designed to appease straight dude
These are companies that have stock holders and dont just make games for hell of it. Male gamers make up most of the console and pc space for gaming. Companies make games for the demographics that make them money. Until women start playing games that arent mobile they wont make games for them. Your issue should be female gamers not supporting the games that are Anita approved and not enough females making the games. You want the industry to change, money is the only thing that will change it.

Women should be equal to men, but men don't treat us as equals. As for your second point, it's been proven time and time again that women make up more than 40% of gamers, and not just on mobile. And even if they weren't, it's a stupid as hell business decision to alienate half of the population just because you want to put some tiddies in your game.

 

[Aarglefarg]

In terms of male protistutes in GTA

None of the protags of GTA have been gay

Trevor has some undertones but the very first thing we see of him is fucking a junky chick.

Trevor is behaviourally bisexual and doesn't label himself.

Trevor: BANG! BANG! BANG! Quick fire round! Who’s got a question for uncle T?

Michael: Where’d you bury the bodies Trevor?

Trevor: Uh well, they’re everywhere… BANG! BANG! Frank?

Franklin: Uhh, I guess I’ve been wondering… are you gay?

Trevor: No, yeah. Whatever— labels bro. BANG! BANG! You want me to be gay?

Franklin: Look man, I want you to be happy. —And a bit less frightening.

Trevor: Oh good ‘cause that’s what I am! Whatever’s making me happy!

http://starfleetrambo.tumblr.com/post/71768752219/gta-v-hangout-dialog-franklin-actually-asks

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SbGXQZOImo

 

[Fisty]

Too bad she couldn't mention some of the examples of devs getting it right. The industry is getting a lot better. Still a ways to go, obviously.

The issue in my eyes is not that GTA games are so violent and misogynistic, it's the fact that it also happens to be like the most popular and highest grossing series ever. The game itself isn't necessarily the issue imo

 

[FyreWulff]

The majority of your points I agree with however I have some questions.

If they promise to protect and take care of women in their online spaces
If women are equal why do they need to be protected in online spaces? Do they need male gamers to stand up for them? Why cant they stand up for themselves? Is this not treating female as the weaker sex and therefore also sexist?

[x] a woman should solo tank thousands of dudes harassing them online simultaneously

If they have more female characters in the products that aren't designed to appease straight dude
These are companies that have stock holders and dont just make games for hell of it. Male gamers make up most of the console and pc space for gaming. Companies make games for the demographics that make them money. Until women start playing games that arent mobile they wont make games for them. Your issue should be female gamers not supporting the games that are Anita approved and not enough females making the games. You want the industry to change, money is the only thing that will change it.

[x] it's a male industry so it should only sell to men (please ignore that it was artificially made male-centric in the first place)
[x] mobile gamers aren't real gamers
[x] women should fix the situation themselves (please ignore that men actually view women made and centered content as "taking away" content from them and push back)

 

[Chip N Chance]

Good for her. I never would have guessed that she was that "in the know" on the game industry to be so right.

 

[psychowave]

"Voting with your wallet" is a faulty argument anyway because there's no way for, say, Square Enix to know whether I didn't buy FFXV because I don't like RPGs, because I don't own the platforms it came out for, or because I don't like that the game has an all-male cast. The only way for them to know is for us to actually talk about it.

 

[Freeman]

You can think there is enough diversity, but there isn't. Not in terms of race, not in terms of gender. Women are not treated like men are in the industry, there is sexism in video gaming and it's absurd to act as if there isn't.

I meant diversity of games.

 

[Toparaman]

Man all the posts in this thread pretending they didn't realize she was referring to GTA are hilarious.

"Huh I never heard of any game where you can kill women and dump their bodies... Must be referring to one of them weirdo Japanese games"

You can kill anyone except for main characters in GTA. I don't think any of the recent GTAs have encouraged you to specifically target women.

You can't fuck or sexually harass men in GTA (while in control). You can fuck and sexually harass women in GTA and you get rewarded by it.

I've played all of the main story missions in GTA Vice City, GTA IV, and GTA V. I can't recall ever being able to sexually harass women in those games. You can push them around and punch them just like you can do to men. Do you have any actual evidence of what you're claiming?

Seems like people who don't play a lot of GTA just assume it's terrible. It's actually a pretty socially savvy series, though the satire can be a bit heavyhanded at times.

I'm still waiting for even a single example of a recent popular game that encourages or incentivizes the "maiming and dumping" of women specifically. That's a pretty weighty accusation to make of the game industry, and the sad thing is that a lot of uninformed people are going to run with it because it fits their preconceived notion of what the game industry is.