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[SomedayTheFire]

But, for example, I think it's a problem when things like the ME female-reporter face punch is perceived as sexist, and is essentially filed into the broad category of "videogame sexism." Finding solid examples that many others could agree upon is what convinces - things like there only being female prostitutes and male cops in videogames. I find it disheartening when the *most* controversial (often intention-less) instances of sexism becomes the flashpoint for conversation.

Oft-times it's important to bring up stuff like that though. To point out the latent sexism that can exist. The ME thing, I think is just fucking stupidly designed. It shouldn't have been an option. The sexism angle is, do you get that option for any other annoying NPC? Why was that NPC in ME a woman filling the annoying, aggressive ("bitch" if you will, I've seen it being said about that particular character numerous times) role? For me the sexism isn't solely the punch, but it's the characterisation of *just* that character that leads up to that specific thing happening.

Clearly Ashley Judd should have turned down roles if she had a feeling she only got the role because of her looks...

i.e. she should have never accepted any role, ever.

Fucking hell :-(

 

[Freeman]

So mysogyny doesn't exist in the gaming world because games don't make people violent and we're not all satanists?

Did I say or even suggested that?

No point in having a conversation if people just want to grandstand and show how holier than thou they are.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

This is just a continuation of the old smear campaigns that said gamer were satanists, that ts made people violent, etc.

Judd didn't say any of this, what are you on about?

A bunch of prudes that find visibility/money by looking for something to complain about.

Judd's advocacy is for the money? Her speaking out about her victimization at the hands of an internet mob is insincere? What?

 

[RoboticWater]

You're not identifying who the 'other side' is in this equation, nor the 'facts' that you assert surfaced in your extensive research on the topic.

There is GamerGate and the other side is Anti-GamerGate (or maybe I'm misinformed on that). I have seen those Anti-GamerGate banner harass those who simply bring up ethics in games journalism. No, I won't find those 4 (?) year old tweets/comments for you. It's been a while, and I'm tired. Will you not believe that some people that were against GamerGate were antagonistic and sensationalist?

I'll totally buy that GamerGate was a harassment campaign that was deceitfully styled as an ethics campaign. I will never say that there wasn't a significant harassment campaign. What I won't ignore, though, is that ethics in games journalism is an entirely defensible position that people genuinely had. I also won't ignore sensationalist responses from the press like "The Gamer is Dead" (or whatever it was). Does that justify GamerGate? Of course not. Does it make the trolls good guys and denouncers of harassment bad guys? No. It means that there was more than two parties involved with the conflict, and that approaching the subject with nuance might not be a dumb idea.

I certainly won't respond to neutrality, and indeed, critical thinking with condescension, because if there's any way not to convince people that you're right, it's to smugly declare it and be dismissive thereafter (I'm not saying you in particular are the one doing this).

 

[DerekOfTheDykes]

I feel like Ashley Judd is somewhat off point on her specifics, though less so on general point of hypocrisy. So... maybe right by accident.

There aren't really many mainstream games that glorify violence against women specifically, outside of the earlier-mentioned GTA rabbithole. The vast majority of popular games do not praise or encourage the player to commit violence against women because they are women. There IS still an industry-wide pattern of casual misogyny that is plainly visible in female characters being overly sexualized and poorly written by default, but that's a different side to that coin.

However, all of that is kind of being pedantic, because the games industry WAS mostly pretty hypocritical in that very libertarian, silicon valley kind of way... everyone was a little too comfortable staying out of the discussion because their company had yet to be brought up. And they do that because they know that if they speak out, Gamergaters and their ilk will stop buying their products. So rather than make a stand against harassment and for equality, they stay quiet for the bottom line.

A business is absolutely allowed to do that, but it's also fair to call them out as wanting to pay light lip service without actually committing to a position. That's not exactly what Ashley said, but it's parallel to the topic I think.

 

[Atcha43]

Oft-times it's important to bring up stuff like that though. To point out the latent sexism that can exist. The ME thing, I think is just fucking stupidly designed. It shouldn't have been an option. The sexism angle is, do you get that option for any other annoying NPC? Why was that NPC in ME a woman filling the annoying, aggressive ("bitch" if you will, I've seen it being said about that particular character numerous times) role? For me the sexism isn't solely the punch, but it's the characterisation of *just* that character that leads up to that specific thing happening.

So what are you saying? If you want to create an annoying aggressive role it needs to be a man or you can't create them at all?

 

[Freeman]

Judd didn't say any of this, what are you on about?

I was just making a comparison, to show this is a reoccurring thing.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I was just making a comparison, to show this is a reoccurring thing.

A comparison of what to what, though? Your initial post is in response to what event exactly? I'm very confused about your point.

 

[7roject28]

Pretty soon gaming will go backwards and characters will be stick figures for you to imagine. That way no one gets hurt, except your imaginary friends.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

So what are you saying? If you want to create an annoying aggressive role it needs to be a man or you can't create them at all?

No.

 

[Freeman]

A comparison of what to what, though? Your initial post is in response to what event exactly? I'm very confused about your point.

That some activist group will always be complaining.

 

[Atcha43]

No.

So what does a developer do if they want to create an annoying, aggressive character?

 

[MooseKnuckles]

It really feels like, through that quote, she sees games as mysoginistic because wants to. It helps make her point. She doesn't play them, which is obvious, so she makes a blanket quote inferring that all games are like GTA.
Highly doubt she knows that games like Gravity Rush, Bound, Gone Home and Life Is Strange even exist.

She obviously isn't saying every game is misogynistic, or that games are inherently misogynistic - that's ridiculous.

She is pointing out the fact that on the whole the games industry has issues with misogyny/female representation, issues which should be addressed more stridently in the face of harassment campaigns like gamer gate.

The existence of games that treat female characters well and give them agency doesn't suddenly negate the fact that these issues exist.

 

[univbee]

So what does a developer do if they want to create an annoying, aggressive character?

They add online multiplayer. -rimshot-

 

[Lime]

Yep. If you can't handle fictional entertainment and free expression the problem is with you. I don't go around protesting Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey because I don't like it or think the message sucks. She doesn't like it, tons of people like it, life goes on.

So you're basically telling her to put up with the sexism and abuse that she faces and shut up?

You know, this isn't about you liking Twilight and her not liking video games, this is about the shit she experiences as a woman in these spaces and in this form of entertainment with the game companies' hypocrisy with denouncing harassment.

 

[EventHorizon]

Five minutes of research will show you there really weren't good points on both sides.

Even if the original intent had been about ethics, the movement very quickly became a harassment campaign and stayed that way until the end.

Yea, there were. Btw I did do five minute of research before commenting here to make sure my memory was correct on this issue. My introduction to gamergate came from passages like this...

The last few weeks therefore represent the moment that gamers realised their own irrelevance. This is a cold wind that has been a long time coming, and which has framed these increasingly malicious incidents along the way. Videogames have now achieved a purchase on popular culture that is only possible without gamers.

...

On some level, the grim individuals who are self-centred and myopic enough to be upset at the prospect of having their medium taken away from them are absolutely right. They have astutely, and correctly identified what is going on here. Their toys are being taken away, and their treehouses are being boarded up. Videogames now live in the world and there is no going back.

http://dangolding.tumblr.com/post/95985875943/the-end-of-gamers

Well, good luck getting me to be sympathetic after reading something like that. While I don't agree at all with the threats that were made and the immaturity that went along with it, I do think there has been an overreaction to the whole "portrayal of women in gaming" controversy. And no, as a gamer I am not worried in the slightest about my toys being taken away or becoming irrelevant. The Law of Supply and Demand will take care of that quite nicely.

There are legitimate discussions to be had about this topic. You don't have to be on the side of misogynists to not agree 100% with the people are super critical and sensitive about women in gaming.

 

[LionPride]

So you're basically telling her to put up with the sexism and abuse that she faces and shut up?

You know, this isn't about you liking Twilight and her not liking video games, this is about the shit she experiences as a woman in these spaces and in this form of entertainment with the game companies' hypocrisy with denouncing harassment.

No no, none of that matters because Video Games...

 

[Freeman]

So you're basically telling her to put up with the sexism and abuse that she faces and shut up?

You know, this isn't about you liking Twilight and her not liking video games, this is about the shit she experiences as a woman in these spaces and in this form of entertainment with the game companies' hypocrisy with denouncing harassment.

What space? I should feel pity for a multi millionaire Hollywood actress? Because of what? Because she doesn't like some games?

Just throwing world like abuse around, how is she being abused? If she is being threatened the police should definitely go after the people doing it(as they should do for anyone else), other than that whatever.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

So what does a developer do if they want to create an annoying, aggressive character?

My point was, the character is latently sexist, and people will and should point that out. The fact she's a complete outlier and fills the "alpha bitch" role is the problem and that she exists only to be that a two dimensional character. It's not malicious sexism, but it's still sexist.

A developer can create rounded, well thought out NPC'S who's goals aren't two dimensional.

 

[Lime]

Pretty soon gaming will go backwards and characters will be stick figures for you to imagine. That way no one gets hurt, except your imaginary friends.

Let me guess, you hate PC culture, you think minority groups are special little snowflakes, you think feminism is about censorship, college campus protests about safe spaces are the real problem curtailing free speech, and you think that feminist criticism just wants to have all women wearing burkas. '

If you want to engage an argument or a position, you have to understand it first. Your post shows that you haven't begun to understand what's it about and instead you dismiss the hurtful and harmful experiences that people face and tell you about, and instead you choose to chastise them for speaking up with a nonsensical counter-argument that no one is actually advocating.

 

[psychowave]

What space? I should feel pity for a multi millionaire Hollywood actress? Because of what? Because she doesn't like some games?

You realize that these things affect millions of women throughout the entire world, and that she's using her power to speak up for those who wish they could but aren't able to?

 

[Lime]

What space? I should feel pity for a multi millionaire Hollywood actress? Because of what? Because she doesn't like some games?

Because she, like so many other women online and in games spaces, are experiencing harassment, terrorism, slurs, silencing tactics, willful ignorance, just for being a woman. That is what she is talking about.

 

[Freeman]

Let me guess, you hate PC culture, you think minority groups are special little snowflakes, you think feminism is about censorship, college campus protests about safe spaces are the real problem curtailing free speech, and you think that feminist criticism just wants to have all women wearing burkas. '

If you want to engage an argument or a position, you have to understand it first. Your post shows that you haven't begun to understand what's it about and instead you dismiss the hurtful and harmful experiences that people face and tell you about, and instead you choose to chastise them for speaking up with a nonsensical counter-argument that no one is actually advocating.

Don't you see how ironic it is that you just assume all that based on a single opinion? How about being more accepting or at least respectful of diverse opinions?

You realize that these things affect millions of women throughout the entire world, and that she's using her power to speak up for those who wish they could but aren't able to?

Where is this abusing happening? On in game chat? In game chat is cancer for everyone that has some sense.

 

[Madame M]

If we can't have games where you get to beat up female prosititutes (why can't we beat up and murder male prostitutes? I think we should add male prostitutes to GTA), we literally can't have anything. That's how censorship works!

 

[kvothe]

That some activist group will always be complaining.

Do you think we live in a perfect world? Can there be no improvements made to our society? Or do you think that any attempt at betterment is just a pointless waste of time?

 

[LionPride]

Man, it's like some of y'all can't handle the fact a woman calls out the video game industry for problems it has because she's "attacking" your video games and y'all are just saying she needs to get over it. Y'all got issues

 

[Mael]

I'm going to bow out of the discussion before I verbally abuse that kind of stupid behavior on display.

There is GamerGate and the other side is Anti-GamerGate (or maybe I'm misinformed on that). I have seen those Anti-GamerGate banner harass those who simply bring up ethics in games journalism. No, I won't find those 4 (?) year old tweets/comments for you. It's been a while, and I'm tired. Will you not believe that some people that were against GamerGate were antagonistic and sensationalist?

There's no such a thing as Anti-GG.
There's GG and the rest of the world that watched in utter disbelief.
Any attempt at federating the non GG crowd failed because there's no such a thing, unlike the GG crowd that is roughly just the video game themed altright these days.
Some people were shitty to some other GG people but that's not the point.
GG was a coordinated effort to push women out of gaming, there's nothing about journalism at its core.
Hence why they chose to go against Zoe Quinn and not the alleged journalist they accused of impropriety.

I'll totally buy that GamerGate was a harassment campaign that was deceitfully styled as an ethics campaign. I will never say that there wasn't a significant harassment campaign. What I won't ignore, though, is that ethics in games journalism is an entirely defensible position that people genuinely had. I also won't ignore sensationalist responses from the press like "The Gamer is Dead" (or whatever it was). Does that justify GamerGate? Of course not. Does it make the trolls good guys and denouncers of harassment bad guys? No. It means that there was more than two parties involved with the conflict, and that approaching the subject with nuance might not be a dumb idea.

Talk about ethics in journalism was drown because of the GG shit.
There was a topic here about it that took a break for nearly half a year because any mention of ethic or journalism was drowned by idiots talking about that shitty movement.
When the conversation was steered toward ACTUAL impropriety in the gaming industry the same GG shitheads went on about how it wasn't about gaming journalism anymore or some BS. There's a reason "actually it's about ethics in..." is a meme these days.

You misread the "Gamers are over" article, reread it or have someone explain it to you because you clearly didn't understand it.

I certainly won't respond to neutrality, and indeed, critical thinking with condescension, because if there's any way not to convince people that you're right, it's to smugly declare it and be dismissive thereafter (I'm not saying you in particular are the one doing this).

Go do some research and come back instead of spouting nonsense, we provided you with some material if you wanted to educate yourself further.
Stop this shit it's not funny.

 

[psychowave]

Man, it's like some of y'all can't handle the fact a woman calls out the video game industry for problems it has because she's "attacking" your video games and y'all are just saying she needs to get over it. Y'all got issues

'S what happens when you love video games too much and respect women too little.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

What space? I should feel pity for a multi millionaire Hollywood actress? Because of what? Because she doesn't like some games?

Just throwing world like abuse around, how is she being abused? If she is being threatened the police should definitely go after the people doing it(as they should do for anyone else), other than that whatever.

You know this talk was specifically about the abuse she received during gamergate, right? Well no you don't, you instantly thought it was just a "shit on gaming" talk. No, this was specifically about her receiving abuse online.

 

[PtM]

Ashly Judd needs to take a backseat because I have less money than her.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Man, it's like some of y'all can't handle the fact a woman calls out the video game industry for problems it has because she's "attacking" your video games and y'all are just saying she needs to get over it. Y'all got issues

No, people are being critical of her making a very vague comment that really has no grounds in reality. The very fact that people are trying to soften her "maim and dump" comment into something entirely different just shows how bad it was.

 

[Freeman]

You know this talk was specifically about the abuse she received during gamergate, right? Well no you don't, you instantly thought it was just a "shit on gaming" talk. No, this was specifically about her receiving abuse online.

In political debate abuse goes both ways, death threats are not exclusive to woman or gamergate for that matter. Police should start locking people up for those threats, with that I can agree, has nothing to do with the content of games.

 

[ironmang]

So you're basically telling her to put up with the sexism and abuse that she faces and shut up?

You know, this isn't about you liking Twilight and her not liking video games, this is about the shit she experiences as a woman in these spaces and in this form of entertainment with the game companies' hypocrisy with denouncing harassment.

What are the game companies supposed to do? They can't stop hateful people from gathering on another platform and harassing people. Even policing their own games would require a large amount of resources and any system they create would for sure be abused.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

In political debate abuse goes both ways, death threats are not exclusive to woman or gamergate for that matter. Police should start locking people up for those abuse, with that I can agree, has nothing to do with the content of games.

She was harassed because she is a woman though and talking about her experiences. What are you even arguing here?

 

[poodaddy]

I agree with her completely, and it's nice to have more people speaking out about it. Now if only all these defenders of every female character in almost every Japanese game being designed purely for sex appeal would grow up and stop buying games that objectify women I'd bet things would change for the better.

Won't happen though.

 

[Madame M]

Seriously, I wish more games had male prostitutes.

 

[Toparaman]

So has anyone figured out which games she's referring to? Seems like that's the crux of her argument that the industry is "hypocritical", yet my scan of this thread is coming up with nothing.

I can't think of a single popular game from recent years where women are specifically targeted for maiming or killing.

 

[Zakalwe]

Yea, there were. Btw I did do five minute of research before commenting here to make sure my memory was correct on this issue. My introduction to gamergate came from passages like this...

Well, good luck getting me to be sympathetic after reading something like that. While I don't agree at all with the threats that were made and the immaturity that went along with it, I do think there has been an overreaction to the whole "portrayal of women in gaming" controversy. And no, as a gamer I am not worried in the slightest about my toys being taken away or becoming irrelevant. The Law of Supply and Demand will take care of that quite nicely.

There are legitimate discussions to be had about this topic. You don't have to be on the side of misogynists to not agree 100% with the people are super critical and sensitive about women in gaming.

What do you think the article you quoted represents exactly?

 

[Freeman]

She was harassed because she is a woman though and talking about her experiences. What are you even arguing here?

Arguing what does that have to do with games?

 

[psychowave]

Where is this abusing happening? On in game chat? In game chat is cancer for everyone that has some sense.

On twitter, on facebook, on youtube, where women are assaulted with rape and death threats and have their families threatened just because they dare criticize video games. Let me guess, next you're gonna suggest that these women should stop using the Internet.

No, people are being critical of her making a very vague comment that really has no grounds in reality. The very fact that people are trying to soften her "maim and dump" comment into something entirely different just shows how bad it was.

You literally can fuck prostitutes, kill them and then steal their money in one of the most popular, best selling games of all time, and most men don't give a shit about this or find it troubling enough to speak up about it. Another example that comes to mind is this horrifying use of a woman's body as a means to solve a puzzle in God of War III.

 

[Lime]

No, people are being critical of her making a very vague comment that really has no grounds in reality. The very fact that people are trying to soften her "maim and dump" comment into something entirely different just shows how bad it was.

That people are willing to "dump" or negate her criticisms and testimonies because she didn't go into a full analysis with specific examples (that she probably would have been dismissed from using anyway with the way that people respond to so-called 'cherry-picking) is pretty telling about how much they actually care about the issue of sexism in the games industry anyway.

If the condition of being supportive of women like Ashley Judd and others facing sexism is contingent on her giving exact and precise examples of how the games industry reproduce misogyny in their entertainment products, then perhaps people were never actually that supportive in the first place.

Finally, you have plenty of cases elsewhere that talk about what Judd is referring to (as posted previously throughout this thread)

 

[Arthimura]

We get to discuss why a dev choosing to use the platform of their choice or even the control of their choice is a good/bad idea.
We're going to discuss whether or not their artistic choice is good/bad too.
Fuck that whole "artistic freedom" shit that no one even gives a crap if the dev make the mistake of choosing motion control for their grand vision.

That's my point, art is subjective.

If i don't like motion controls, i won't started complaining on the internet saying that devs can't choose to do their games using motion controls, the max i will say is that i don't like and won't buy.

I also don't remember playing any game that "maim and dump women for sport", i don't think it's construtive discussing something by creating a boogeymen, it only leads to intolerance

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Arguing what does that have to do with games?

Gamergate!!!!

 

[Freeman]

You literally can fuck prostitutes, kill them and then steal their money in one of the most popular, best selling games of all time, and most men don't give a shit about this or find it troubling enough to speak up about it.

You can do that to men in GTA, you also can chose to not do any of that if you want.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

You can do that to man in GTA, you also can chose to not do any of that if you want.

You can't fuck or sexually harass men in GTA (while in control). You can fuck and sexually harass women in GTA and you get rewarded by it.

 

[Basketball]

One thing that I have to ask

What is the desired ratio for sexualized vs non-sexualized women is necessary for progress to be fully achieved ?
depending on if you think sexualization is inherently bad off course

for every 1 Quiet or Cidney you get 10 plus characters like from Overwatch/Ellie/Aloe/Life is Strange girls/Mirror's Edge/All the Assassin creed females/so many other females from fps and jrpgs

Do characters like Quiet or Cidney not have to exist anymore for progress?

Honestly from major western games it seems like these kinds of characters are pretty much dead. In terms of in-game characters for western games I don't know what else is needed the critics won there for the most part.

 

[psychowave]

You can do that to men in GTA, you also can chose to not do any of that if you want.

That's cool. The devs still put it in their game which means they were okay with people doing it.

 

[Madame M]

You can do that to men in GTA, you also can chose to not do any of that if you want.

None of those men are prostitutes, GTA has a gender equality problem with the dangerous lack of male prostitutes.

 

[re_fan1996]

Actress that was mildly popular in random 90's movies.

She was on Star Trek also

 

[Mael]

That's my point, art is subjective.

If i don't like motion controls, i won't started complaining on the internet saying that devs can't choose to do their games using motion controls, the max i will say is that i don't like and won't buy.

Good thing you're doing that because I can tell you that's not the case for the vast majority of the people even on this site.
And I better not find something on your history that shows massive hypocrisy on your part
Heck we have people talking right now about the decision to have dungeons or not in the next Zelda.
No one would dare tell them that they can't express their position because "artistic freedom" or whatever.
It's a discussion board, if you don't want to talk about something don't go saying you don't want to talk about, just don't bother interacting.
My point is you can bet we're going to discuss shit like Quiet and the latest DoA Xtreme through whatever lens we want.
Artistic expression be damned.

I also don't remember playing any game that "maim and dump women for sport", i don't think it's construtive discussing using boogeymen, it only leads to intolerance

Play GTA - SA on your phone, you can do exactly that.