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[Morrigan Stark]

By way of personal example, I don't like Anna Sarkeesian. I think she's an opportunistic parasite who is exploiting a serious social issue for financial gain.

Ah yes, that ultra-lucrative business of... feminist critique

opportunistic parasite, jesus. You're not describing Sarkeesian, you're describing the likes of Milo >_<

I fully accept that I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

"I have no proof or evidence, but I'll call someone terrible names based on my feelings"

 

[Adam_Vania]

oh no somebody is exploiting something for personal gain

welcome to the fucking world

 

[Gentleman Jack]

People are so polarised and biased that they can't see the grey areas in between or acknowledge any merit in a differing viewpoint.

By way of personal example, I don't like Anna Sarkeesian. I think she's an opportunistic parasite who is exploiting a serious social issue for financial gain. I fully accept that I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get. However, I agree with a lot of what she has to say, and would adamantly defend her right to say what she has to say. I think anybody who goes online and harasses women who are critical of the gaming industry is a scumbag and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

"People should value differing viewpoints."

"By the way, I hate this woman, even though I'm not able to base that feeling on anything other than a vague impression."

The lack of self-awareness is staggering.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Gaming, like any male-dominated industry(like construction, military, sport), seems to have a lot of gender issues.

I think the big problem in most contentious issues today is that people can't respectfully disagree. People are so polarised and biased that they can't see the grey areas in between or acknowledge any merit in a differing viewpoint.

By way of personal example, I don't like Anna Sarkeesian. I think she's an opportunistic parasite who is exploiting a serious social issue for financial gain. I fully accept that I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get. However, I agree with a lot of what she has to say, and would adamantly defend her right to say what she has to say. I think anybody who goes online and harasses women who are critical of the gaming industry is a scumbag and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

You evidently don't know shit about Anita Sarkeesian, and it's not that you could be wrong, you ARE wrong. Literally nothing about her doesn't feel like she genuinely cares about the representation of her gender in media. Honestly with the shit she has to put up with from the gaming community she isn't getting paid enough for her efforts. Because if the worst of the worst aren't straight up threatening her life we have moderates thinking it's all a conspiracy meant specifically for personal gain.

 

[Adam_Vania]

men have exploited women for hundreds, thousands of years. women were not granted the legal right to own property until the mid-19th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women's_Property_Acts_in_the_United_States

Sarkeesian is a woman and she talks about women's representation. how is that exploitative? is she exploiting herself? is there a rule where anyone can exploit females in video games except actual females?

is she exploiting videogames? aren't there millions of people making videos about videogames, a lot of them full of incoherent yelling? there are celebrity game bloggers that don't even bother playing new games because their dream was to not have to play any games they didn't want to? and yet they will go on to complain for hours about something they will never even play - and make a living doing this! people throw thousands of dollars at idiots who don't even have an educated opinion to offer, and we have people still complaining this lady is exploiting video games.

 

[Ekai]

The mra response to this doesn't surprise me. Keep on gafing, gaming gaf.

 

[_Ryo_]

I agree with her and its hard to argue against it.

 

[Quasar]

While I agree that the games industry has a way to go with it's treatment of women, I need some examples of the bolded.

Well I'd point to the social platforms with monthly fees rather than software. Sony and MS take in heaps of money from psn and xbl and really haven't done much serious action to moderate the community to make it safer for women and minorities.

 

[michaelius]

http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

Interesting stats here for the second. It doesnt appear to be dumb as the video game industry is making billions the way it is. I am not saying its right its not but as I said it isn't likely to change based on a call against sexism.

The first point, you didnt answer my question. Why do females need to be protected? If they are to be protected is that not sexist?

That's interesting - among hardcore genres the one which is usually blamed the most at pandering to otaku (jRPG) is one of most played by women.

 

[Zakalwe]

The mra response to this doesn't surprise me. Keep on gafing, gaming gaf.

Don't do that, please.

 

[dtm808]

Just like movies, books, and music, nobody is forcing you to play/watch them. If you dislike something in a game for personal reasons don't buy it. Also I bet if a game like GTA had roles reversed and you were a women killing male strippers and shit these people wouldn't be complaining. Double standards.

 

[ChrisD]

Just like movies, books, and music, nobody is forcing you to play/watch them. If you dislike something in a game for personal reasons don't buy it. Also I bet if a game like GTA had roles reversed and you were a women killing male strippers and shit these people wouldn't be complaining. Double standards.

I... Don't think the same people would be talking about it, but there would still be discussion on it.

Don't want to use the word complaining because bringing up the GTA point is more than just a complaint. It is an actual issue, considering how many don't even think about what they're doing, game or no.

 

[Springfoot]

.

 

[Armaros]

Just like movies, books, and music, nobody is forcing you to play/watch them. If you dislike something in a game for personal reasons don't buy it. Also I bet if a game like GTA had roles reversed and you were a women killing male strippers and shit these people wouldn't be complaining. Double standards.

So you think movies, books and music don't have a massive catalog of recorded social criticism about various topics?

So in a way you are saying games are less then those other mediums because they cant take social criticism.

 

[komplanen]

The mra response to this doesn't surprise me. Keep on gafing, gaming gaf.

You are painting with really broad strokes here and I'm not sure why?

 

[Emulated Hype]

Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.

Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.

The Tomb Raider thing was an oversteer on Crystal Dynamics part. One of the criticisms that were levied at them during the Legend-Trilogy days involved the simplification of the violence.

 

[RibMan]

Thoughts on her words?

Five thoughts:

1) Impossible to disagree with what she said. You can literally spend a weekend watching compilation videos on YouTube that showcase deplorable behavior towards women and minorities.

2) She's 100% within her right to single out the gaming industry, so it's peculiar to see some folks focus on one line from her entire presentation. I do wish she had chosen more than just one industry to talk about, but having worked at these events before, I fully understand why she couldn't spend more time than she was allotted.

3) I said this years and years ago, but the most effective solution against a person who screams misogynistic, homophobic, racist, and other vile words is to have a zero tolerance policy. There is no other solution that is as effective. I think educating people is effective in reducing the frequency and number of people who say and do that stuff, but the most effective solution is a zero tolerance policy. You need to be an asshole for the betterment of society, and therefore, if you're in charge of a public and influential platform such as Twitter/Reddit/Instagram/Facebook/etc., you need to not be a coward profit-first driven leader and institute a policy where sexist, racist, homophobic, Islamophobic etc. behavior is not tolerated.

4) Tech industries will only hire more women when women boycott their products. It's the same with any other industry; when a single group of people not consuming your product will have a noticeably negative effect on your bottom line, that's when the change happens. In other words, the way to get these companies to change is to target the money. When the money is flowing in as expected, these companies have zero fiscal incentive to change. Anyone wanting a company to be more inclusive, more ethical, more judicious, and more supportive of women and causes towards women should start by figuring out how to get as many women as possible on their side in order to fully stop supporting that company. These companies are very very good at marketing their products, brand, and company culture as being ethical, inclusive, and supportive towards women, but that's just the power of marketing. In reality, these companies will put women in public positions and threaten demotion from such positions in order to get away with abuses, misconduct, and unfair behavior towards them and other women.

5) The new president of the country is on record for having some of the most sexist and offensive comments towards women and minorities since the Civil Rights movement in the 50's and 60's. You should fully expect the United States to devolve from the progress brought forth by the Obama administration, and unfortunately, you should fully expect the United States to be viewed as a backwards country for the next four or eight years. You should have these expectations because the guy running the show has the exact same attitude of the exact same people who say sexist, racist, and tone deaf things. If you thought the pictures and Snapchats showing male college students surrounding a passed out girl or in blackface or screaming insults at women in Hijab's, if you thought this was going to get better anytime soon then you're in for a rough ride.

 

[Lime]

You are painting with really broad strokes here and I'm not sure why?

Because people in this thread are piling on a woman who's speaking up about sexism in an attempt to silence and/or dismiss her. It's blatant misogyny from some people and it's a stain on the GAF community.

 

[Funyarinpa]

It's that women always have the same roles, while men get to be the hero far more often than the victim.

Come on now, much more men are killed in video games than women. "Men become heroes far more than victims" is an illogical statement. And the representation issue is not even that, it's that men are just far more represented in every sort of role (except sidekick, I guess).

Even having female brutes/common enemies in shooters would go a long way, but that doesn't make the "men are more often the heroes than the victims" statement correct.

Edit: I still don't understand how you can write an annoying, insistent and aggressive minor female character without being sexist if that's the "bitch" stereotype. And honestly I feel that creating such a character is perfectly okay.

 

[Wink]

Let me see... the thesis is that we have to stop doing anything that is offensive to anyone.
The antithesis now sits in the White House.
Synthesis is when the world can come to an agreement that both sides have long drifted into bullshit extreme arguments which have little to do with reality.

 

[GLAMr]

You evidently don't know shit about Anita Sarkeesian, and it's not that you could be wrong, you ARE wrong. Literally nothing about her doesn't feel like she genuinely cares about the representation of her gender in media. Honestly with the shit she has to put up with from the gaming community she isn't getting paid enough for her efforts. Because if the worst of the worst aren't straight up threatening her life we have moderates thinking it's all a conspiracy meant specifically for personal gain.

The abuse and mistreatment Sarkeesian and other well-known feminists face is disgusting (I am a long-term fan Rebecca Watson, and the 'elevator incident' made me feel ill). I don't doubt her commitment and sincerity when it comes to feminism and the representation of women in media. I acknowledge that I was way too harsh and out of line in my post. My issue with her stems from the footage of her saying she hates video games and never plays them, then she positioned herself as a champion for women in gaming. I realise this footage could have been taken entirely out of context or misrepresented by those "herpaderp grlz not reel gamrz" types. There's also the possibility that she saw a mainstream media industry in desperate need of somebody to speak up about the grave gender imbalances, rampant sexism and horrific abuse, and decided to try and do some good there. I see that this is something I should look into further; thanks for the homework GAF. My misguided, head-up-my-own-ass opinions aside, I really am a big fan of Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Women videos, and admire her courage, intelligence and hard work.

Back on the topic of the OP; I just watched the video again because my wife wanted to see it. I choke up when she opens reading those social media comments aimed at her.

 

[spineduke]

Reading through the comments, I have never felt more disconnected from GAF. The industry has a problem, no matter how much you attack this woman and her credentials. It's like Anita's detractors feel emboldened now the right is in full swing.

 

[psychowave]

Just like movies, books, and music, nobody is forcing you to play/watch them. If you dislike something in a game for personal reasons don't buy it. Also I bet if a game like GTA had roles reversed and you were a women killing male strippers and shit these people wouldn't be complaining. Double standards.

Nobody is forcing you to read/listen to criticism of the games industry either, and yet here you are.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Only way to change the industry is to target its money. People need to stop supporting the developers/publishers who make such games.

 

[Moon_frogger]

I would still argue that if we are supposed to look at games in a more way similar to music, films, novels then we have to take on these types of subjects. Nocturnal Animals is a recent movie involving 2 female leads that don't have a happy ending. The Girl on the Train is also similar in this aspect as a book and the same can be said for many other forms of media. I guess games are still toys that should stick to being as mindless as it can be.


True and I'm not asking your directly but I get the feeling we're still in a state where you can't have a strong female protagonist that doesn't die in a horrible ways. RE has been doing this since it came out (RE 1: Low Health Jill + Hunter Lunge attack = 6 year old BumblebeeCody nightmares)


This. But I'd rather live in a shell where games do not have criticisms from women. (Kappa)



Bruh.

Games haven't earned the right, for the most part. Gta for example can't get away with that sort of shit because the writing and execution are comparatively terrible to books or movies. Get the basics right before you try to make some bold statement about domestic violence or whatever

Take inside. Gratiutious violence against a child. Over and over. Most games could not pull this off. The inside developers earn it though, with a mature narrative that would be at home in a good book or film. God of war isn't that. 'Last of us' still isn't really there either to be honest, as good as the voice acting and mocap is.

 

[Kysuke]

God this era of people suck.

 

[*Splinter]

Seems like a pretty good example of why you shouldn't include hyperbolic nonsense when you want to make a point. There's undeniably more that the games industry could and should be doing, particularly in moderation and providing tools to avoid/block abusive players, but you include one line like this:

"when you’re still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport.”

and anyone who even remotely disagrees with you will instantly disregard your entire speech. At that point you're only talking to people that already agreed with and understood your point.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Seems like a pretty good example of why you shouldn't include hyperbolic nonsense when you want to make a point. There's undeniably more that the games industry could and should be doing, particularly in moderation and providing tools to avoid/block abusive players, but you include one line like this:


and anyone who even remotely disagrees with you will instantly disregard your entire speech. At that point you're only talking to people that already agreed with and understood your point.

I don't understand why someone would disregard a 15 minute talk over one sentence?

Also GTA.

 

[Figboy79]

I've worked in the gaming industry for 11+ years, and I can't disagree really.

The way women and minorities are treated both in the games themselves, and behind the scenes making the games is frustrating. A lot of bigotry, racism, sexism, and misogyny goes on behind closed doors. I've mentioned it in a few threads, but my wife vowed to never work in the gaming industry again after the way our co-workers treated her when we worked at Activision. Quite a few of my other girl friends have had similar and worse experiences working in the industry. I don't think a single one of them still works in gaming now.

I love working in gaming, but it's disheartening and demoralizing when you put so much blood, sweat, and tears into the industry, and find yourself passed over for positions you're equally qualified for over and over again for co-workers that, to be frank, are much whiter than you, and look a lot more like the dudes in charge than you do. The lack of minorities in the gaming industry isn't due to a lack of interest in minorities in gaming. A lot of the time, we aren't even on the list when it comes to discussions for promotions or permanent roles with growth potential in the company. Aside from my own experiences, I've heard more than a few stories from old co-workers who have gotten wind of the real reason why they were either laid off, not hired on permanent, or got bypassed for promotions. Basically, it boiled down to them not having the "right" body parts (ie, penis), or the right skin color.

I can't say Ms. Judd's opinions are wrong. Seeing it myself, and hearing a lot of it from other industry workers both male and female, black and white and everything else in between has me agreeing very much with her assessment.

 

[_Rob_]

I've worked in the gaming industry for 11+ years, and I can't disagree really.

*snip

That was hard to read. Do you know if this is the case world wide, or more localised? As someone hoping to break into the industry this is concerning, do you feel anything has improved over the decade or so that you've been working?

 

[*Splinter]

I don't understand why someone would disregard a 15 minute talk over one sentence?

Also GTA.

Look at this thread, it's been happening since the first page. I don't believe that every single person who quoted that particular line would deny that misogyny (/in gaming) is a problem.

 

[massoluk]

I've worked in the gaming industry for 11+ years, and I can't disagree really.

The way women and minorities are treated both in the games themselves, and behind the scenes making the games is frustrating. A lot of bigotry, racism, sexism, and misogyny goes on behind closed doors. I've mentioned it in a few threads, but my wife vowed to never work in the gaming industry again after her the way our co-workers treated her when we worked at Activision. Quite a few of my other girl friends have had similar and worse experiences working in the industry. I don't think a single one of them still works in gaming now.

I love working in gaming, but it's disheartening and demoralizing when you put so much blood, sweat, and tears into the industry, and find yourself passed over for positions you're equally qualified for over and over again for co-workers that, to be frank, are much whiter than you, and look a lot more like the dudes in charge than you do. The lack of minorities in the gaming industry isn't due to a lack of interest in minorities in gaming. A lot of the time, we aren't even on the list when it comes to discussions for promotions or permanent roles with grown potential in the company. Aside from my own experiences, I've heard more than a few stories from old co-workers who have gotten wind of the real reason why they were either laid off, not hired on permanent, or got bypassed for promotions. Basically, it boiled down to them not having the "right" body parts (ie, penis), or the right skin color.

I can't say Ms. Judd's opinion are wrong. Seeing it myself, and hearing a lot of it from other industry workers both male and female, black and white and everything else in between has me agreeing very much with her assessment.

Wish people share more stories about this

 

[Oersted]

Let me see... the thesis is that we have to stop doing anything that is offensive to anyone.

You managed to miss gender equality being deeply offensive to the other side, didn't you?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Look at this thread, it's been happening since the first page. I don't believe that every single person who quoted that particular line would deny that misogyny (/in gaming) is a problem.

Yeah I just don't understand. It's stupid. It's painfully obvious what she meant and that she used hyperbole as a literary device to make her point, which actually is a well known and oft done way to make points, and people still pretending like that ruins her talk?

It wasn't a debate, it wasn't a round table it was a talk with a set time. She probably couldn't in good faith say who she had been talking to so used that term to say what it was without giving it away. You know what she meant and every single person complaining in here knows what she meant but they have more time to attack that one line that discuss the actual meat of her talk. I'm not saying it's always a deflection tactic, but it's been used as one multiple times in this thread. I think there is something wrong if you watch that 15 minute talk and tour first thought is to come and defend gaming.

Edit: again as I said last night, she is an outsider to the gaming industry. We should be asking why she has these thoughts about gaming, what created them and how can we stop outsiders from having this view. Disregarding it does nothing but handwave the issue away.

 

[Lime]

Let me see... the thesis is that we have to stop doing anything that is offensive to anyone.
The antithesis now sits in the White House.
Synthesis is when the world can come to an agreement that both sides have long drifted into bullshit extreme arguments which have little to do with reality.

Yup, people who just want to be treated fairly and not face harassment and bigotry are the same as misogynists, bigots, neo-nazis, and fascists.

Both sides, am I right?

Wish people share more stories about this

It's not like gamers, including the people in this thread, really care about such stories. You're more likely to be attacked and piled on for speaking up by Gaffers than be supported, as evidenced in this thread and several other instances of sexism and racism in games culture.

A woman comes out and speaks about her experiences of being harassed and here you have people dismissing and silencing her with veiled misogyny.

 

[komplanen]

Because people in this thread are piling on a woman who's speaking up about sexism in an attempt to silence and/or dismiss her. It's blatant misogyny from some people and it's a stain on the GAF community.

I just missed the red line between some people being horrible in this one thread and how that's all of a sudden the entirety of gaming gaf "being gaming gaf". But this is not the point of this thread so I'm going to drop the subject and move to reading the actual comments in here.

 

[Quote]

The inability to remove hyperbole is going to get us all killed. Stop reading stuff in such black and white terms. Read with empathy and maybe a few light bulbs will go off.

Just like movies, books, and music, nobody is forcing you to play/watch them. If you dislike something in a game for personal reasons don't buy it. Also I bet if a game like GTA had roles reversed and you were a women killing male strippers and shit these people wouldn't be complaining. Double standards.

If you think that reversing the roles in 1 GTA game is a counter point then you don't understand the issue at all.

Let me see... the thesis is that we have to stop doing anything that is offensive to anyone.
The antithesis now sits in the White House.
Synthesis is when the world can come to an agreement that both sides have long drifted into bullshit extreme arguments which have little to do with reality.

"Both sides!!!" shit. Ick.

 

[Nepenthe]

As a woman, I think the most annoying thing about the issue of sexism in gaming is the automatic defensiveness, the insatiable need by male gamers to single out any and every potential flaw, exaggeration, and metonymy at the greater expense of the big picture argument that the industry as a whole has a problem, which as another poster mentioned stands in a very stark and hypocritical contrast to the argument I always hear when I see minorities asking for more representation- "the market can't support it"- an argument that is unintentionally self-deprecating because it implies an incapability or an intolerance on part of male gamers towards putting in the effort women do to empathize with someone else who's different from them. Ultimately, it's almost as if people are equating a condemnation of the industry and media's flaws as a condemnation of their own character, an idea that an enjoyment of games is an implicit endorsement of the flaws of the medium. This is nonsense, and it's an internalization that's inherently selfish because the issue does not hinge upon the inherent goodness of any individual gamer due to it being a huge systemic problem. So, let's all tackle the systemic problem together instead of knee-jerking a way to explain why we're individually not culpable in the sexism that still obviously hangs over tech.

In short, Ashley's speech rocks and hopefully it changes at least one Gaffer's mind.

 

[*Splinter]

Yeah I just don't understand. It's stupid. It's painfully obvious what she meant and that she used hyperbole as a literary device to make her point, which actually is a well known and oft done way to make points, and people still pretending like that ruins her talk?

It wasn't a debate, it wasn't a round table it was a talk with a set time. She probably couldn't in good faith say who she had been talking to so used that term to say what it was without giving it away. You know what she meant and every single person complaining in here knows what she meant but they have more time to attack that one line that discuss the actual meat of her talk. I'm not saying it's always a deflection tactic, but it's been used as one multiple times in this thread. I think there is something wrong if you watch that 15 minute talk and tour first thought is to come and defend gaming.

Edit: again as I said last night, she is an outsider to the gaming industry. We should be asking why she has these thoughts about gaming, what created them and how can we stop outsiders from having this view. Disregarding it does nothing but handwave the issue away.

To the bolded: actually no, I don't. I think she might mean GTA, but I don't think GTA is a good example of a game that "maims and dumps women for sport". If you tell me GTA has problems in moderation and representation I'd be 100% in agreement, but if you tell me "it's a game where you maim and dump women for sport" I'll assume you don't know what you're talking about, and - if I didn't already agree with her underlying point - why would I listen to someone who doesn't know what they're talking about?

Looking at your edit, maybe we just have different ideas of what this speech is for. As an outsider's perspective on gaming, sure. It's nothing we don't already know, but fair enough I guess. I think a speech like this should attempt to convince (or at least educate) those who disagree, and you don't achieve that by giving people an excuse to disregard you.

 

[*Splinter]

Let me see... the thesis is that we have to stop doing anything that is offensive to anyone.
The antithesis now sits in the White House.
Synthesis is when the world can come to an agreement that both sides have long drifted into bullshit extreme arguments which have little to do with reality.

What a bizarre assessment of the situation.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

My issue with her stems from the footage of her saying she hates video games and never plays them, then she positioned herself as a champion for women in gaming. I realise this footage could have been taken entirely out of context or misrepresented by those "herpaderp grlz not reel gamrz" types.

100% it's this.

I saw Anita speak around this time two years ago. And one of the things she talked about is how even she had internalized this bullshit about what sort of games count as Real Games and what stuff doesn't. About how there was a time when she was stupid enough to say things like "I'm not a gamer" or "I don't really play games" when she was, in fact, playing a bunch of video games, but drew herself on the wrong side of the line just because she wasn't playing the Halo/Gears/GTA/Call of Duty stuff that constituted "Real Games".

 

[GLAMr]

100% it's this.

I saw Anita speak around this time two years ago. And one of the things she talked about is how even she had internalized this bullshit about what sort of games count as Real Games and what stuff doesn't. About how there was a time when she was stupid enough to say things like "I'm not a gamer" or "I don't really play games" when she was, in fact, playing a bunch of video games, but drew herself on the wrong side of the line just because she wasn't playing the Halo/Gears/GTA/Call of Duty stuff that constituted "Real Games".

That's heart breaking. Thank you so much for your constructive, thoughtful response. I had never heard this account before.

 

[CrustyBritches]

let's all tackle the systemic problem together instead of knee-jerking a way to explain why we're individually not culpable.

I'm a male gamer. I don't personally see game characters through a gender lens, but rather based on their coolness and abilities. I think you run into a paradox when you attempt to shoehorn characters or elements in the pursuit of moral conformity. In my experience it comes off at best as insincere and at worst as appropriation.

However, I would like to hear perhaps a shortlist of changes you'd like to see in your favorite games that would make it a more enjoyable experience for you.

 

[Figboy79]

That was hard to read. Do you know if this is the case world wide, or more localised? As someone hoping to break into the industry this is concerning, do you feel anything has improved over the decade or so that you've been working?

Personally, I can't say if it's worldwide, but in the major hubs of the gaming industry (NA, Japan, and Canada), the friends I know that work (and used to work), in the industry, have told me similar stories. It's also not surprising that of my friends that have stayed in the industry and have been successful, they are all white dudes. Don't get me wrong, I am stupendously happy and proud of them, but as a fellow industry worker, I am a little bummed that I feel that my ethnicity (I'm Black/Samoan) has played a huge part in why I was only able to ascend so far up the industry ladder (my experience and skill set didn't seem to affect things much).

My wife also refuses to play online because of the harassment she'd receive from gamers. She'll only play online with me, and our friends.

I'd love to say that things have improved, but it just doesn't seem like it from my experiences and, quite frankly, the industry's response to Gamer Gate for example. The sexism and racism is still the same as it's always been. We still have a very long way to go to improve inclusiveness for minority and women workers in the industry (as well as minority and women gamers). Getting defensive when this shit is called out isn't going to change things. "Whataboutism," or, say, arguing the semantics of something like, "making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport," isn't addressing the issue. It's deflection.

This gaming community isn't made up of young white males anymore. Hell, it's never been. I'm 37 years old and have been gaming since the 80's. My wife has been gaming since the 80's as well. A large amount of women are gamers, and they've been gaming since before the mobile gaming boom. Even if they hadn't, the industry seriously needs to grow the fuck up, both behind the scenes, and the consumers themselves. While we can't force dickwads to stop being dickwads, we can sure as hell call it out when we see it. I think people like Anita Saarkeesian are doing fantastic work, even if I think they miss the mark here and there, overall, their message is sound. It's embarrassing when I see a thread derailed because of some semantic argument, when the meat of the argument is something more complex and significant.

I have to say however, that it was very encouraging when I was at E3 two years ago (I missed last years E3), and saw so many games with female protagonists on display, and even more encouraging that there were so many women developers on the floor showing off their games. I just wish the larger companies were more respectful and inclusive. It's still very much a boy's club, and a white boy's club at that. Things will improve, but we all have to keep pushing for it, and calling out the bullshit, even if it makes people uncomfortable. This goes for more than just the gaming industry, since this shit is prevalent everywhere. It happening everywhere is isn't an excuse. Let's set an example for the other industries to follow. The gaming industry already has to deal with a bunch of accusations, let's not make being insufferably sexist and racist one of the accurate ones.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Personally, I do think the gaming industry can do more, but there are assholes everywhere in every industry and hobby... especially in the movie industry that she works in, and I think that Hollywood can often be just as bad, and sometimes worse, than the gaming industry in its treatment of women.

1) Do you really think the movie industry (mysoginic and sexist as it unarguably is) is worse than the videogame industry? Frankly I think it takes a really skewed view to even think they are similar.
2) Even if it was, so what? She is addressing the videogame industry, what does "but X does it too!" add to the conversation other than sweeping it under the rug?

Let me see... the thesis is that we have to stop doing anything that is offensive to anyone.

Yes, this is precisely what is being said here.

 

[Nepenthe]

I'm a male gamer. I don't personally see game characters through a gender lens, but rather based on their coolness and abilities. I think you run into a paradox when you attempt to shoehorn characters or elements in the pursuit of moral conformity. In my experience it comes off at best as insincere and at worst as appropriation.

To not see characters through a gendered lens comes off as impossible to me. Do you not at all recognize design/physiological, voice, and job/role differences as the characters exist both within a fictional world, which in turn is built off of the singular context that is the human experience of the developers and designers responsible, all of who in turn exist in the real world where gender identity and institutional misogyny undoubtedly exist to color their world views? In other words, is every distinctly-designed character literally just some amorphous blob to you with absolutely no gender signifiers whatsoever? Surely not. I imagine you do recognize gender differences, but you either don't pay attention or you don't consciously count them in your assessment of how you evaluate a character; fairly easy to do as someone with at least one majority identifier. I mean, I'm straight, and I don't particularly care about the straight inclinations of characters either because I live in a world where heterosexuality is so common and accepted that I'm subsequently desensitized to the existence of any single straight character. In general though, not judging a character on the basis of gender representation is fine as a personal aptitude, but ultimately it does absolutely nothing for me as a woman with far less positive representation at the helm to personally enjoy in the medium nor as someone with a remote stake in seeing the tech industry work towards a more friendly and welcoming environment for women.

Just as well, why do you imply that minority representation, even minority representation for the sake of making a political point, is any more particularly shoehorned than majority representation? Why is it that characters that are women or other minorities- and subsequently my existence- inherently politicized and pandering or hinge on some ulterior reason to exist, and yet straight male characters are somehow a natural consequence of "artistic expression?" Do straight male characters not like seeing themselves in leading roles either? I would assume they would, otherwise I feel like they wouldn't be over-represented nor would straight male gamers in general be so hostile to even games that rely on entirely new minority characters from scratch without encroaching on the identity of any existing characters elsewhere.

However, I would like to hear perhaps a shortlist of changes you'd like to see in your favorite games that would make it a more enjoyable experience for you.

More leading and primary roles (More Aloys), more variety of roles (more grunts, non-romantic sidekicks, and comedic roles), greater access to the library of character design attributes male characters use regularly (more monsters like Riptor), more ability to customize a character when appropriate (more Pokemon Trainers) and a lessening of out-of-place sexual fan service (less weird sexual grunting when getting hurt or killed in the TR reboot). Subsequently, an increase in male sexuality geared specifically towards women would be nice too, which isn't the same as generic male power fantasy designs. If I have to live with jiggle physics, certainly I can stand to see a few more bulging packages and unnecessary shirtless-ness here and there.

 

[MooseKnuckles]

As a woman, I think the most annoying thing about the issue of sexism in gaming is the automatic defensiveness, the insatiable need by male gamers to single out any and every potential flaw, exaggeration, and metonymy at the greater expense of the big picture argument that the industry as a whole has a problem, which as another poster mentioned stands in a very stark and hypocritical contrast to the argument I always hear when I see minorities asking for more representation- "the market can't support it"- an argument that is unintentionally self-deprecating because it implies an incapability or an intolerance on part of male gamers towards putting in the effort women do to empathize with someone else who's different from them. Ultimately, it's almost as if people are equating a condemnation of the industry and media's flaws as a condemnation of their own character, an idea that an enjoyment of games is an implicit endorsement of the flaws of the medium. This is nonsense, and it's an internalization that's inherently selfish because the issue does not hinge upon the inherent goodness of any individual gamer due to it being a huge systemic problem. So, let's all tackle the systemic problem together instead of knee-jerking a way to explain why we're individually not culpable in the sexism that still obviously hangs over tech.

In short, Ashley's speech rocks and hopefully it changes at least one Gaffer's mind.

This is a very good post, people are so quick to get defensive that they miss the forest for the trees.

You're not a bad person for enjoying media that has problematic elements, but it is shitty to use your personal enjoyment as a shield to ignore the problems that might be there.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I fully accept that I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

"Accepting that you could be wrong" and then doing nothing to correct the situation is social modesty, not actual humility, and therefore worse than useless.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/gq/the_proper_use_of_humility/

However, I would like to hear perhaps a shortlist of changes you'd like to see in your favorite games that would make it a more enjoyable experience for you.

IMHO as a white male, having more women and people of all races in lead game development positions would lead to many of the problems to sort themselves out. See Guild Wars 2 where having a diverse development team brought about all sorts of awesome cascading effects like same-gender relationships, a disabled yet awesome main character, several non-sexualized female main characters, and so on, all in a truly natural, organic way.

The cool thing about having women and minorities in lead roles is that, usually, their own experiences makes them more aware of the need for visibility for groups that aren't their own. So even a single person that is not a cis straight white male at the top can result in a huge amount of diversity and richness in the game.

 

[CrustyBritches]

To not see characters through a gendered lens comes off as impossible to me. Do you not at all recognize design/physiological, voice, and job/role differences as the characters exist both within a fictional world*snip for sake of brevity*

It's not impossible at all. For instance, when you play Super Mario 2 do you feel like a plumber when you are Mario, a princess when you are Peach, or a mushroom when you are Toad? To me the character is simply an avatar that represents my mind's presence and control of the game world. You see Boy/Girl, Mario/Peach, but I see speed and precision hangtime/hover ability. Nothing represents the character more than their gameplay implementation.

In general though, not judging a character on the basis of gender representation is fine as a personal aptitude, but ultimately it does absolutely nothing for me as a woman with far less positive representation at the helm to personally enjoy in the medium nor as someone with a remote stake in seeing the tech industry work towards a more friendly and welcoming environment for women.

This is well stated.

Just as well, why do you imply that minority representation, even minority representation for the sake of making a political point, is any more particularly shoehorned than majority representation?*snip for sake of brevity*

I think you answer your own question. If the developer is not attempting to represent gender, race, or action based on political motivation, then suddenly altering their approach for the sake of conformity to something they don't understand, or aren't aware of comes off as insincere and possibly even insulting. I prefer design based around coolness and functionality rather than political motivation.

More leading and primary roles, more variety of roles (more grunts, non-romantic sidekicks, and comedic roles), greater access to the library of character design attributes male characters use regularly (more monsters like Riptor)*snip for sake of brevity*

Hell yeah I can get on-board with almost all of this. I never perceived a sexual nature to Lara's death sequences. Thought it was some aggressive Maria Sharapova voice-over on display.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

To the bolded: actually no, I don't. I think she might mean GTA, but I don't think GTA is a good example of a game that "maims and dumps women for sport". If you tell me GTA has problems in moderation and representation I'd be 100% in agreement, but if you tell me "it's a game where you maim and dump women for sport" I'll assume you don't know what you're talking about, and - if I didn't already agree with her underlying point - why would I listen to someone who doesn't know what they're talking about?

Looking at your edit, maybe we just have different ideas of what this speech is for. As an outsider's perspective on gaming, sure. It's nothing we don't already know, but fair enough I guess. I think a speech like this should attempt to convince (or at least educate) those who disagree, and you don't achieve that by giving people an excuse to disregard you.

You can have sex with a prostitutes, kill her, get your money back and get rewarded for it! You can sexually assault women in GTA and get rewarded for it. It's very clearly about GTA.

If that one line is a reason to disregard the talk, it says more about you and your leaping to the defence of gaming than Ashley Judd.

Edit: second paragraph isn't about you specifically by the way.