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[LionPride]

Women should be equal to men, but men don't treat us as equals. As for your second point, it's been proven time and time again that women make up more than 40% of gamers, and not just on mobile. And even if they weren't, it's a stupid as hell business decision to alienate half of the population just because you want to put some tiddies in your game.

Gotta have mah sexual titillation when I'm playing them games yo

Spoiler

/s

 

[psychowave]

Gotta have mah sexual titillation when I'm playing them games yo

Spoiler

/s

Like, I'll be honest here, I don't know a lot about running a business, but I'm pretty damn sure there's gotta be a way to please your existing fanbase while also branching out to new people.

But who cares, it's not like wimmen are real gamerz anyway.

 

[Funyarinpa]

I understand your point, but that brings up another problem. Doesn't that mean that if the role calls for a jerk reporter, a woman can't be cast to play it. I just watched Die Hard again recently, so this guy is fresh in my mind.

He is an absolute scum reporter in the movie and gets punched in the end for being so. Nobody had a problem with a man playing that role. If it had been cast as a woman I suspect it'd be part of some highlight reel of misogyny or "bitch" roles.

This is pretty much the qualm I have with examples such as the ME one.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

I've played all of the main story missions in GTA Vice City, GTA IV, and GTA V. I can't recall ever being able to sexually harass women in those games. You can push them around and punch them just like you can do to men. Do you have any actual evidence of what you're claiming?

In GTA V, walk up to women on the street and hit right on the D-pad. This triggers voice lines to the person you're standing in front of. The voice lines directed at women are often sexual harassment.

 

[FyreWulff]

Like, I'll be honest here, I don't know a lot about running a business, but I'm pretty damn sure there's gotta be a way to please your existing fanbase while also branching out to new people.

But who cares, it's not like wimmen are real gamerz anyway.

it's pretty fucking easy but people will literally fight to the death over "guaranteeing" 10$ instead of making 500$

 

[Toparaman]

Walk up to women on the street and hit right on the D-pad. This triggers voice lines to the person you're talking to. The voice lines directed at women are often sexual harassment.

Which GTA? V? Had no idea you could trigger talking to NPCs.

 

[SLHellbound]

Women should be equal to men, but men don't treat us as equals. As for your second point, it's been proven time and time again that women make up more than 40% of gamers, and not just on mobile. And even if they weren't, it's a stupid as hell business decision to alienate half of the population just because you want to put some tiddies in your game.

http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

Interesting stats here for the second. It doesnt appear to be dumb as the video game industry is making billions the way it is. I am not saying its right its not but as I said it isn't likely to change based on a call against sexism.

The first point, you didnt answer my question. Why do females need to be protected? If they are to be protected is that not sexist?

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

Which GTA? V? Had no idea you could trigger talking to NPCs.

Yep, GTA V. I didn't really know it was in there either until I hit that by accident and had Franklin say some real gross shit to a woman just walking down the street.

 

[LionPride]

Like, I'll be honest here, I don't know a lot about running a business, but I'm pretty damn sure there's gotta be a way to please your existing fanbase while also branching out to new people.

But who cares, it's not like wimmen are real gamerz anyway.

It's hilarious the lengths people will go to, to justify their sexism and racism

 

[ironmang]

Women should be equal to men, but men don't treat us as equals. As for your second point, it's been proven time and time again that women make up more than 40% of gamers, and not just on mobile. And even if they weren't, it's a stupid as hell business decision to alienate half of the population just because you want to put some tiddies in your game.

I'd really like to see some proof that 40%+ of non-mobile games are being purchased and played by women. I just don't believe it.

 

[hodgy100]

the games industry (at least games made under large publishers) has very little artistic integrity. So the argument of "artistic integrity" is bullshit.

I'd really like to see some proof that 40%+ of non-mobile games are being purchased and played by women. I just don't believe it.

Personally i dont think it matters if only 10% of games are bought by women. We (game devs / publishers) shouldn't get a free pass for how we depict and treat women because not many see it.

 

[Madame M]

http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

Interesting stats here for the second. It doesnt appear to be dumb as the video game industry is making billions the way it is. I am not saying its right its not but as I said it isn't likely to change based on a call against sexism.

The first point, you didnt answer my question. Why do females need to be protected? If they are to be protected is that not sexist?

Both females and males need to be protected, that's what no discrimination based on sex means.

 

[dubq]

Is that a reference to specific games? Not a native speaker, so I'm not sure if I understand well, but is she talking about games mutilating women, and on top of that, selling well?

GTA prostitute NPCs.

 

[chromatic9]

You could label GTA is making billions by allowing you to kill police. Does adding male sex workers that can be killed even it up? Maybe they're in the game I'm not sure. I own GTA5 but not seen the sex worker stuff. I remember the headlines since the old Jack Thompson days of it being possible to pick up a prostitute, kill then get your money. I doubt many are doing the kill the prostitute thing. Killing cops is part of the gameplay.

It's a sort of sandbox game though. Civilians and cops can be shot if the player decides to. You can steal peoples cars and rob stores.

Sounds like you ban the game or you don't and accept it's a video game. I don't think Judd is asking for male prostitutes that can be killed?

 

[psychowave]

http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

Interesting stats here for the second. It doesnt appear to be dumb as the video game industry is making billions the way it is. I am not saying its right its not but as I said it isn't likely to change based on a call against sexism.

The first point, you didnt answer my question. Why do females need to be protected? If they are to be protected is that not sexist?

You'd be wise to read your own sources.

It bears pointing out that most gamers play a variety of games across genres, and a high participation rate in the chart doesn’t mean that gamers (whether male or female) only play that genre.

I, like most people, frequently play match 3 puzzle games on my phone. I also play a lot of ~hardcore~ games. It's not a zero sum game. Your source also fails to provide a similar genre breakdown for men, for some reason. Here's a more thorough study that shows both male and female players prefer puzzle games, though admittedly it is almost 3 years old.

We wouldn't need to be protected if men stopped trying to hurt us.

 

[hodgy100]

http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

Interesting stats here for the second. It doesnt appear to be dumb as the video game industry is making billions the way it is. I am not saying its right its not but as I said it isn't likely to change based on a call against sexism.

The first point, you didnt answer my question. Why do females need to be protected? If they are to be protected is that not sexist?

intersectional feminism helps both men and women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

women need "protecting" because men are in the position of power and people seem to be trying their hardest to hold onto that power hurting many innocents in the process.

 

[ZehDon]

Yep, GTA V. I didn't really know it was in there either until I hit that by accident and had Franklin say some real gross shit to a woman just walking down the street.

Yeah, that always bugged me. It kind of makes sense for Trevor, as that type of anti-social objectification literally defines the character. However, Michael and Franklin catcalling women walking down the street, just feels ... out of place, and against character. I don't know, I mean, it's GTA afterall, it's not exactly the kind of game you should play if you want "be nice" to have its own button.

 

[SLHellbound]

[x] a woman should solo tank thousands of dudes harassing them online simultaneously



[x] it's a male industry so it should only sell to men (please ignore that it was artificially made male-centric in the first place)
[x] mobile gamers aren't real gamers
[x] women should fix the situation themselves (please ignore that men actually view women made and centered content as "taking away" content from them and push back)

Men dont deal with harrassment by themselves by thousands of people? Male gamers get harassment all the time online. It isnt right in either situation but the call in the industry is stop harassment towards women not everyone.

I did not say that making female characters take away from a story. I dont care either way who the protagonist as long as its a good game. Money moves companies to conform to the ones buying the triple A shooters. I am not advocating for it to not change. Just opining that it wont without money in pockets. Mobile gamers are real gamers, I didnt say that either but thanks for assuming.

 

[dubq]

You can kill anyone except for main characters in GTA. I don't think any of the recent GTAs have encouraged you to specifically target women.

The fact that you can get your money back from a prostitute by killing her after hiring her is pretty much an indirect encouragement (the entire point of the game is to amass money).

 

[ironmang]

Personally i dont think it matters if only 10% of games are bought by women. We (game devs / publishers) shouldn't get a free pass for how we depict and treat women because not many see it.

Never said otherwise. It matters when it comes to # of female playable characters though I'd assume.

 

[EventHorizon]

As for your second point, it's been proven time and time again that women make up more than 40% of gamers, and not just on mobile. And even if they weren't, it's a stupid as hell business decision to alienate half of the population just because you want to put some tiddies in your game.

While women make up a significant portion of the gaming public, they don't play the same types of games as men. It's not a matter of alienating half your audience, it a matter of your audience already segregating themselves and developers targeting games for those separate parts.

Here is some data on the subject.

We found that gender differences aligned with stereotypes of male and female gamers. Female gamers are more likely to be driven by Design (expression and customization), Fantasy (being someone else, somewhere else), Story (rich narrative and characters), and Completion (collecting and finishing everything). Male gamers are more likely to be driven by Competition (duels and matches), Challenge (playing on highest difficulty levels), Excitement (fast-paced and intense), and Strategy (thinking and planning).

http://quanticfoundry.com/2015/08/28/gender-differences-in-gaming/

Edit:
Beaten. I thought I was a special snowflake that dug up new info

 

[Freeman]

The fact that you can get your money back from a prostitute by killing her after hiring her is pretty much an indirect encouragement (the entire point of the game is to amass money).

You can get money back from hotdog seller as well by killing them. Its a mechanic of the game not a political statement.

 

[LionPride]

Men dont deal with harrassment by themselves by thousands of people? Male gamers get harassment all the time online. It isnt right in either situation but the call in the industry is stop harassment towards women not everyone.

I did not say that making female characters take away from a story. I dont care either way who the protagonist as long as its a good game. Money moves companies to conform to the ones buying the triple A shooters. I am not advocating for it to not change. Just opining that it wont without money in pockets. Mobile gamers are real gamers, I didnt say that either but thanks for assuming.

Watch a male stream a game versus watching a woman.

No matter what the woman is wearing, comments will be about her appearance. No matter the guy, it's typically about the game. This is the kind of behavior that the gaming community attracts really. And don't bring up males getting harassed online as if that means women don't get an absurd amount of hate for being a woman.

 

[psychowave]

While women make up a significant portion of the gaming public, they don't play the same types of games as men. It's not a matter of alienating half your audience, it a matter of your audience already segregating themselves and developers targeting games for those separate parts.

Here is some data on the subject.

Your data says that women enjoy customization, a rich narrative and characters, and completion, yet they don't seem to play sandbox games as much as men. Isn't that odd?

 

[BolognaOni]

Gaming, like any male-dominated industry(like construction, military, sport), seems to have a lot of gender issues.

I think the big problem in most contentious issues today is that people can't respectfully disagree. People are so polarised and biased that they can't see the grey areas in between or acknowledge any merit in a differing viewpoint.

By way of personal example, I don't like Anna Sarkeesian. I think she's an opportunistic parasite who is exploiting a serious social issue for financial gain. I fully accept that I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get. However, I agree with a lot of what she has to say, and would adamantly defend her right to say what she has to say. I think anybody who goes online and harasses women who are critical of the gaming industry is a scumbag and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Do you really think that ad-hominem attacks constitute respectful disagreement? It's fine to disagree with someones viewpoints, but this if you (as you admit) do not have knowledge of a persons motives, does speculating about them help prove a point?

 

[Freeman]

Watch a male stream a game versus watching a woman.

No matter what the woman is wearing, comments will be about her appearance. No matter the guy, it's typically about the game. This is the kind of behavior that the gaming community attracts really. And don't bring up males getting harassed online as if that means women don't get an absurd amount of hate for being a woman.

You will encounter the same behavior over a woman doing anything else online (if she is at least mildly attractive). Its in no way its exclusive to games.

You see the same behavior directed at man if they are an attractive musician etc.

 

[Madame M]

You could label GTA is making billions by allowing you to kill police. Does adding male sex workers that can be killed even it up? Maybe they're in the game I'm not sure.

They're not there, and it would certainly help "even it up" because it's hard to think about the role of women in GTA games other than being prostitutes you can murder.

 

[psychowave]

I no way its exclusive to games.

It's almost like this is a gaming forum.

 

[SLHellbound]

You'd be wise to read your own sources.



I, like most people, frequently play match 3 puzzle games on my phone. I also play a lot of ~hardcore~ games. It's not a zero sum game. Your source also fails to provide a similar genre breakdown for men, for some reason. Here's a more thorough study that shows both male and female players prefer puzzle games, though admittedly it is almost 3 years old.

We wouldn't need to be protected if men stopped trying to hurt us.

Men try and hurt me....I've been situations with other males that have been scary. I've worked in bars before, I dont like walking home alone at night in a dark alley either. I told my wife she needs my protection and she said thats bullshit. So I am not being sexist by telling her she needs my protection?


1) Match 3 and Family/Farm Sim Gamers Are Most Likely To Be Female.

In fact, these two genres are head and shoulders above any other genre in terms of percentage of female gamers. The next highest genre is a full 27 percentage points lower in its proportion of female gamers.

2) Tactical Shooter and Sports Game Players Are Least Likely To Be Female.

Sports Games (with an average 2% of female gamers) have the smallest proportion of female gamers of all the genres we analyzed. Although the percentage of women in both Shooter categories is low, there is a noticeably lower proportion of women in Tactical Shooters compared with First-Person Shooters (4.3% vs. 7.2%).


Companies like Activision EA etc put more marketing towards number 2 than number 1. Why is that? If they made more money with number 1 then it would stand to reason they make more of those geared towards those demographics. Speculation at best on my part.

 

[LionPride]

You will encounter the same behavior over a woman doing anything else online (if she is at least mildly attractive). I no way its exclusive to games.

You see the same behavior directed at man if they are an attractive musician etc.

1. This isn't really true. It is more likely that most of the conversation will be about their talent

2. You do realize we are on the gaming forum talking about...video games correct? It's worse it happens period, but we talking shop about video games

 

[Madame M]

1. This isn't really true. It is more likely that most of the conversation will be about their talent

Counterpoint: Adam Levine

 

[Lime]

A lot of you (whose slip isn't showing) could benefit from reading this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=957274

The majority of your points I agree with however I have some questions.

If they promise to protect and take care of women in their online spaces
If women are equal why do they need to be protected in online spaces? Do they need male gamers to stand up for them? Why cant they stand up for themselves? Is this not treating female as the weaker sex and therefore also sexist?

Because:

If they have more female characters in the products that aren't designed to appease straight dude
These are companies that have stock holders and dont just make games for hell of it. Male gamers make up most of the console and pc space for gaming. Companies make games for the demographics that make them money. Until women start playing games that arent mobile they wont make games for them. Your issue should be female gamers not supporting the games that are Anita approved and not enough females making the games. You want the industry to change, money is the only thing that will change it.

And that's not even addressing your "free market logic" premise that you're advocating - i.e. "sexist content makes the most money, therefore it should be keep being produced"

 

[Kazuo Hirai]

I don't think she is talking about niche Japanese games, maybe refer to The Witcher 3.

 

[Basketball]

The fact that you can get your money back from a prostitute by killing her after hiring her is pretty much an indirect encouragement (the entire point of the game is to amass money).

what about taxi drivers in gta ... same mechanic minus the sex

 

[Madame M]

what about taxi drivers in gta ... same mechanic minus the sex

Are any of the taxi drivers female?

 

[LionPride]

Counterpoint: Adam Levine

Counter-Counterpoint, accept the fact women get more comments than men on their appearance rather than their talent.

 

[psychowave]

Men try and hurt me....I've been situations with other males that have been scary. I've worked in bars before, I dont like walking home alone at night in a dark alley either. I told my wife she needs my protection and she said thats bullshit. So I am not being sexist by telling her she needs my protection?

Have you and your family been doxxed and threatened for talking about video games? Have women made a flash game about you where they could beat you up? Because that happened to Anita Sarkeesian. Has an ex girlfriend of yours made an entire movement meant to ruin your professional life just because she thought you cheated on her? Because that happened to Zoe Quinn.

I'm not saying men need to physically protect us all the time. I'm saying men need to step up and stop other men from doing this kind of shit.

 

[Freeman]

1. This isn't really true. It is more likely that most of the conversation will be about their talent

2. You do realize we are on the gaming forum talking about...video games correct? It's worse it happens period, but we talking shop about video games

This keep being repeated, I'm pretty sure we all know where we are.

As for the first point, you can take the talent away and find guys that a lot of woman will go crazy just based on the look. Men just seem to have lower standards and are more prone to display such behavior. Its not a competition to see who gets more, my point was that it happens the other way around as well.

 

[Basketball]

Are any of the taxi drivers female?

Nope
In gta 5 it's actually one character model
that plays the same music

BEEP BEEP BEEP

 

[Madame M]

Counter-Counterpoint, accept the fact women get more comments than men on their appearance rather than their talent.

That isn't really a counter to my point about Adam Levine, my point stands true, Maroon 5 really sucks

 

[SLHellbound]

A lot of you (whose slip isn't showing) could benefit from reading this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=957274



Because:

And that's not even addressing your "free market logic" premise that you're advocating - i.e. "sexist content makes the most money, therefore it should be keep being produced"

I am not saying it should be. As I said before I dont care who the protagonist is. I could care less, Is it a good game? Yes. That is all the matters to me.

 

[Lime]

Speaking out against gamergate and other hateful groups is really all you should ask for or expect. Calling them hypocrites and part of the problem for not meeting a list of demands doesn't help anybody.

If you're responsible for creating and curating the cultural space that you inhabit, then you're a hypocrite for *saying* you're against bigotry, but not *acting* by taking any measures to curtail the bigotry.

Sure, I'd love to have more middle eastern men as playable characters instead of mowing them down all the time but I'm not going to hate on game companies for doing what keeps their employees paid and business afloat.

"racism and sexism sells, so who am I to argue?"

Also, I still don't see how they're expected to police online in game when twitter and youtube can't do it on a much simpler platform. Do you want them to pay people to specifically watch thousands of game matches that are being reported? We both know a system like that would get abused with people getting constantly reported whether or not they're harassing anybody.

Yes, Twitter and Youtube are already criticized severely for not doing anything to curtail harassment and the influence of far-right elements. Game companies are already spending lots of money on online infrastructure and social features and DLC and whatever, so of course they are able to have better anti-harassment policies.

 

[LionPride]

That isn't really a counter to my point about Adam Levine, my point stands true, Maroon 5 really sucks

In your opinion, some people actually like their music. *shrug*

 

[Projectjustice]

Meh it goes both ways. Strong male and female characters are everywhere. Victim hood is strong with feminist these days.

 

[Lime]

I am not saying it should be. As I said before I dont care who the protagonist is. I could care less, Is it a good game? Yes. That is all the matters to me.

That's your response to my information about harassment of women and genre preferences according to Superdata?

Anyway, cool that you don't care about characters (I wonder why it's not important to you), but others do. So....

Meh it goes both ways. Strong male and female characters are everywhere. Victim hood is strong with feminist these days.

Those damn victims of harassment and their victimhood!

 

[Toparaman]

The fact that you can get your money back from a prostitute by killing her after hiring her is pretty much an indirect encouragement (the entire point of the game is to amass money).

You can get money from killing anyone. And you're not going to make more money from having sex with the hooker before killing her. If a player really wants some extra cash, it would just be faster to kill the nearest pedestrian. No one's going to wait until night, drive to a place where prostitutes hang out, have sex with them, and then kill them, because it's a total waste of time, and one of the least interesting/fun things you can do in a GTA game.

It shouldn't need to be said after so many years, but the notion that GTA encourages prostitute killing in-game is entirely created by the media. Does GTA encourage killing in-game? Absolutely. But that's a different conversation, not to mention a far greater one that involves hundreds (if not thousands) of other video game franchises, as well as a fuck-ton of movies.

Yep, GTA V. I didn't really know it was in there either until I hit that by accident and had Franklin say some real gross shit to a woman just walking down the street.

Okay, I stand corrected on the sexual harassment. It's still far from "maiming and dumping" women for "sport".

I'm not going to defend GTA's writing, since it can be kind of shitty at times.

They're not there, and it would certainly help "even it up" because it's hard to think about the role of women in GTA games other than being prostitutes you can murder.

That's your problem, because the vast majority of women in GTA aren't prostitutes.

Again, this whole idea that prostitutes play any kind of major role in GTA is media fabrication. You rarely even see them, and when you do you usually drive past them. They're just one of many NPCs walking around the city.

 

[LionPride]

That's your response to my information about harassment of women and genre preferences according to Superdata?

Anyway, cool that you don't care about characters (I wonder why it's not important to you), but others do. So....



Those damn victims of harassment and their victimhood!

It's always funny seeing people say they don't care about characters, it's not as if 7/10 times it tends to be people who DON'T have to worry about seeing someone of their skin tone or gender be the main character or anything

 

[APF]

While I think juvenile-sexist throwaway content in itself is definitely a problem and ends up turning away both female and male players for no actual benefit (not all men are horny teenagers, just as not all white folks get off on casual racism), overall if I had to choose the bigger issue IMO is monitoring and limiting harassment &c for online play and in gaming communities at large. That's huge and benefits everyone, and addressing it helps the industry over the long term. One thing however is that in-game content definitely influences community norms that develop over time, which is why addressing content--or at least understanding the issues and being deliberate about your choices vs casually throwing stuff out there without considering their implications--is an integral part of that process as well.

 

[SLHellbound]

That's your response to my information about harassment of women and genre preferences according to Superdata?

Anyway, cool that you don't care about characters (I wonder why it's not important to you), but others do. So....



Those damn victims of harassment and their victimhood!

You are correct I mean to say I dont care what gender the protagonist. Thank you for pointing out my mistake.

 

[SLHellbound]

Have you and your family been doxxed and threatened for talking about video games? Have women made a flash game about you where they could beat you up? Because that happened to Anita Sarkeesian. Has an ex girlfriend of yours made an entire movement meant to ruin your professional life just because she thought you cheated on her? Because that happened to Zoe Quinn.

I'm not saying men need to physically protect us all the time. I'm saying men need to step up and stop other men from doing this kind of shit.

I've been surrounded by a group of angry drunken males looking to be the shit out of me. I've been publicly shamed for something I had no control over and called names online with my real name before to hundreds if not thousands of people and people in that industry asked me about for months after who didnt personally know me but knew me by name in that industry. So is that a similar situation I say its in the realm.