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Kojima: Overly sexualized women in DS will be given a “deep background story"

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I love that in games now

fictional females have to be over analyzed

They have to look right (can't be too sexy,breast/ass size etc or else male gaze)
Sound right (white woman playing Nadine)
Behave right
Don't show too much emotion (crying zelda)
Dress right (what a midriff...gross)
Everything has to be practical ... HIGH HEELS ... BOOB PLATE/WINDOW
fantasy for the sake of fantasy is such a foreign concept


everything needs an explained
they can't just be
not really exclusive to women characters as well but just the over-analyzation of AAA games
You realize that all of these things typically apply to male characters? That being
-looking right
-sounding right
-dressing practically
-being casted right
-acting in a humanized relatable way
-having genuine moments of emotion that don't feel like deeply ingrained sexism

even fantasy has it's own rules, rarely is there a fantasy created for the sole purpose of being a fantasy, that excuse is ONLY brought up whenever the idea of having less sexualized women come up. It's like it's a crime for people to ask creators to do the treat women in the same manner during the creation and writing process as they do men.
 

ZSeba

Member
I love that in games now

fictional females have to be over analyzed

They have to look right (can't be too sexy,breast/ass size etc or else male gaze)
Sound right (white woman playing Nadine)
Behave right
Don't show too much emotion (crying zelda)
Dress right (what a midriff...gross)
Everything has to be practical ... HIGH HEELS ... BOOB PLATE/WINDOW
fantasy for the sake of fantasy is such a foreign concept


everything needs an explanation
they can't just be
not really exclusive to women characters as well but just the over-analyzation of AAA games

What is criticism?
 
As a reminder Kojima unironically stated that Quiet was written to be the antithesis of sexualized women in gaming. So yes, he's absolutely shit when it comes to handling these things.

That is pretty hilarious. I don't think that means he should give up, though.

I think there is a lot of value in deconstruction.
 
At this point if one of my students ever says i'm stifling their creativity during a critique i'll fail them on the spot because holy shit am I tired of hearing that shit argument from people on GAF.

Here's the thing, nothing Quiet ever does is an expression of her sexuality, she never is doing anything that has to do with sex, except for when she's about to be raped. Artistic freedom is fine, BUT SO IS CRITIQUE.

Critique is fine. Discussions from all sides are needed in any given topic.

Attempting to silence people based on your own moral compass is not ok.

Also you sound like a reasonable and level headed person.
 
Can't he just admit he likes making characters look sexy and attractive? There's nothing wrong with that! That's a simple yet perfectly fine reason for it. But with this, he's just setting himself up for Quiet 2.0.

There is a problem with designing characters to be objects of sexual titillation. Sexual objectification leads to actual mental health issues in women.

Critique is fine. Discussions from all sides are needed in any given topic.

You should listen to what he's saying then.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
That is pretty hilarious. I don't think that means he should give up, though.

I think there is a lot of value in deconstruction.
I mean he's had several chances, he handles sexualization and objectification with as much nuance as David Cage handles human interaction or George Lucas with romance. He also adds to the problem because he never once seems like he's genuinely critiquing this things. Like QUIET of all things is supposed to be the antithesis? Arguably she has the most developed side plot of any other character in MGSV. And yet all that juvenile schlock was supposed to be a good thing.

Critique is fine. Discussions from all sides are needed in any given topic.

Attempting to silence people based on your own moral compass is not ok.

Also you sound like a reasonable and level headed person.
If someone's gonna present an unreasonable intellectually dishonest argument i'm gonna eventually become frustrated. And after years of hearing "artistic freedom" in response to critique, I simply cannot take that argument seriously. Its hows a shocking lack of critical thinking skills to make the argument that *gasp* an artist can do what they want, (except when it comes to a multitude of things that suspiciously have nothing to do with the objectification of women whatsoever.
 

SomTervo

Member
You have your wires crossed my friend. Sexualisation is a branch of sexuality, and my stance is that of artistic freedom, regardless of my own opinion. Vs your stance of artistic stifling.



I find that for a resolution to an issue, all voices must be heard. Rather than one side telling the other side how wrong they are all the time.

But we know it's wrong? History has taught us that. The way women are treated right now by countless men because of how they are portrayed in the media has taught us that. Almost no men in Kojima's entire library are treated like this. He doesn't start with a sexy model of a man and work backwards for their story.

Even if you ignore the historical precedent of things always having been done this way - and how women are treated in this world, partially as a result of that - then there's the fact that within MGSV's oown logic, it completely falls apart because Quiet is treated completely differently to every other character (except Paz, who is - you guessed it - a woman, lol). Then there's the fact Kojima is STARTING his character development with "they have big boobs and are sexy" then working back from that.

Besides this whole thing that's nigh indisputable, I'll indulge you:

"Sexualisation is a branch of sexuality"

Can you explain to me what that means?

Because they are two separate nouns that mean totally different things and have nothing to do with each other.
 
Now it's looked back on fondly. But at the time it was shredded. Whether it be due to the plot or because you couldn't play as Snake throughout the whole game. It's one of those games where its image has absolutely improved over time. And that once "crazy" speech by the AI doesn't seem so crazy anymore.

I think alot of the hate stemmed from not playing Snake, and the massive cliffhanger. MGS3 diverting from the story also retroactively caused people to hate 2 even more.

But yeah, that speecc aint so crazy in this post truth world.

Kojima will always get a pass because of that, imo.
 

brinstar

Member
I mean he's had several chances, he handles sexualization and objectification with as much nuance as David Cage handles human interaction or George Lucas with romance. He also adds to the problem because he never once seems like he's genuinely critiquing this things. Like QUIET of all things is supposed to be the antithesis? Arguably she has the most developed side plot of any other character in MGSV. And yet all that juvenile schlock was supposed to be a good thing.

remember when the female skull unit shows up and the camera immediately zooms in and pans across their boobs for no reason
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Johnny pooping in a barrel was literally in the last mainline game. And what may shock some may just be a cool moment for others, not everyone takes video games so seriously (especially Metal Gear) and you cannot blame them for not thinking the same way you do or claim they're wrong.
You don't claim your game is going to tackle a story about child soldiers, and then have a returning character be blown up with a vagina bomb in the opening act unless you're going for shock value.

There are such things as tact and tone. MGSV fails royally at this.

If you're going to fucking include a sexual assault against your main female character, stop framing the entire scene to get the best angle of her fucking breasts. Despite your claim that "not everyone takes video games so seriously," the inclusion of a fucking rape should be taken seriously. "But the guy had problems with his poop" doesn't brush that shit away.
 

Veelk

Banned
The impact being that Kojima stops including wankbait waifus in his games.

You can disagree that just because a creator wants to include something that it should be included, but the "let the creator do what he/she wants" is a relevant argument.

My impact is just that I hope that people is more thoughtful about how things are depicted in art, both as creators and audiences. I don't really seek to make a greater impact than that, and it's a secondary priority to just expressing myself, which you ignored in favor of focusing on that one thing.

I feel "you can disagree with the creator" is an overly simplified way of describing my feelings to what Kojima does. It goes beyond a mere disagreement, it's an active derision of choices he makes because they're based in ignorance and obliviousness at best and active malice at worst (I don't think it's malice, but it's the worst case scenerio).

Lets replace what we have here with a different but also unpalpable topic.

Lets say that Kojima was racist instead of sexist. Lets say that every black character he made (and lets say he made a few in every game), he made a running joke about how they like to eat watermelons, fried chicken, and drink grape juice. And lets say he's not doing it out of malice. He still gives them unique characters, backstories, all the shit he gives his female characters. But, without fail, every game makes a joke about how black people love those foods, to every black character, because they're black.

All the same arguments given here would apply in that situation as well. "As a creator, he has every right to create what he wants", even if that's a racist caricature. "He's not harming anyone, I can tell the difference between fiction and reality!" All true as well, he's just creating a space where it's okay to stereotype black people. "He's giving them character arcs and backstories and everything, so he doesn't hate black people!" Yup, he only views them as black first and people second, and all black people have these traits he assigns them in his games.

If you would defend this decision with the same space of creator's rights you defend Kojima's choice to sexually objectify women, then atleast your consistent. But I disagree with that, and I do more than disagree. I think it's wrong. It's a wrong action that I don't think should be regulated, like artists should have the ability to choose to sexualize women, or do horrible things to black people, to muslims, and so on. Art is where you can do stuff like this freely, however horrible.

But while I can defend Kojima's right to do what he does, making that action deserves more criticism than "Well, I disagree with that."
 
What is the end goal of this criticism other than to have Kojima and other developers stop including this kind of pandering in their games?

I think, ultimately, it's just to make them aware that some people are uncomfortable with it.

I mean, compare and contrast the reaction that Nier: Automata's lead designer gave in response to people talking about the rampant sexualization of that game's character. Though perhaps not terribly mature, his response was honest and succinct, and as a result people have generally moved on; it's either a no-sell as a result or doesn't bother them, but it's no longer a real point of criticism, regardless.

Kojima invites continued criticism by trying to play coy about it, that's all.
 
T

But having said that, I do want to be careful not to try and name and shame people who like this content.

This is a fact that people just seem to gloss over anytime they enter a heated debate over this topic. Cropped out too much and im too lazy to reload to get it back, but it disappoints me everytime I see people going around just labelling people as disgusting for liking said content. It leaves many people feeling ashamed and guilty about who they are, and personally I dont see anything wrong with anyone who likes to see things that are overly sexualised.

How about a bit of civil discourse before we start calling people pieces of shit for liking boobs. Pick up a game that caters to your moral compass.
 

Euphor!a

Banned
You could say this about many things. Why should developers care about reaching 60 fps? Why should developers care about creating convincing worlds? Why should developers care about competitive depth? These things generally don't affect sales. But that shouldn't stop people from complaining that a great game is limited to 60fps, or that a fun RPG doesn't bother explaining how people can even eat. Even the best games have flaws, and the idea that developers should only care about the flaws that affect sales does a disservice to the medium.

Not to mention this thread isn't a message to the devs, it's a topic on a video game discussion site. Video game discussion includes talking about things that you don't like in video games, and "don't buy it" is a worthless response. If I complain about Bloodborne's framerate and frame pacing, "don't buy it" is a nonsequitor.

I can and would say it about many things. Developers care about the things you listed for many reasons, but to say they "generally don't effect sales" is a bit dishonest. Because they do, they obviously do. And they may strive to do that for many reasons, whether that be pride in their work, respect for their customers, financial motivations, etc. You keep talking about flaws, but Kojima does not see these things as flaws and that is 100% his right.
 

Battlechili

Banned
Almost no men in Kojima's entire library are treated like this. He doesn't start with a sexy model of a man and work backwards for their story.

Even if you ignore the historical precedent of things always having been done this way - and how women are treated in this world, partially as a result of that - then there's the fact that within MGSV's oown logic, it completely falls apart because Quiet is treated completely differently to every other character (except Paz, who is - you guessed it - a woman, lol). Then there's the fact Kojima is STARTING his character development with "they have big boobs and are sexy" then working back from that.
I know that there are often (very justified) complaints about too much sexualization of women in games, but I'd much rather the response to that be having more sexualized male characters rather than just less sexualization. I want people to, rather than denounce the sexualization of female characters in games, encourage developers and push developers to sexualize more male characters. Get Kojima (or someone like Kojima) to take a male character, hypersexualize him, and then work backwards.

I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I genuinely think that games that pander in this manner are more enjoyable as a result of their pandering. I mean people buying titles like Senran Kagura certainly aren't buying them solely for the gameplay, that's for sure. And whilst Death Stranding is undoubtedly a much more serious game and isn't about fanservice, I don't think such fanservice necessarily takes away from the gameplay and delivery of the game itself either.
 

flkraven

Member
I'm sorry but this isn't criticism, this thread is borderline fucking nitpicky insane.

It's nitpicking to want well written, well developed females rather than females presented as sexual objects with piss poor writing? That is being nitpicky? Or is it just nitpicky because it's something you don't care about and happens to criticize a game developer you enjoy?
 
But we know it's wrong? History has taught us that. The way women are treated right now by countless men because of how they are portrayed in the media has taught us that. Almost no men in Kojima's entire library are treated like this. He doesn't start with a sexy model of a man and work backwards for their story.

Even if you ignore the historical precedent of things always having been done this way - and how women are treated in this world, partially as a result of that - then there's the fact that within MGSV's oown logic, it completely falls apart because Quiet is treated completely differently to every other character (except Paz, who is - you guessed it - a woman, lol). Then there's the fact Kojima is STARTING his character development with "they have big boobs and are sexy" then working back from that.

Besides this whole thing that's nigh indisputable, I'll indulge you:

"Sexualisation is a branch of sexuality"

Can you explain to me what that means?

Because they are two separate nouns that mean totally different things and have nothing to do with each other.

Sexualization (or sexualisation) is to make something sexual in character or quality, or to become aware of sexuality

source 1
Source 2

Thats what sexualisation is in essense, in face this is the first time ive heard anyone try to seperate sexualisation from sexuality, which is incredibly confusing for me.

There is good sexualisation and bad sexualisation, so a blanket term "it is wrong" really means nothing to me. For what its worth though, im all for over-sexualising men in the name of equality. People should be able to do what they want.
 
To me, there's basically two purposes to these types of discussions. The first in my mind is trying to ascertain whether prevalence of things like sexualization hinders core gaming's ability to be a big tent hobby. It's sort of a "chicken or the egg" problem where I think it's important to try and get to the bottom of whether or not male gamers are targeted as the main audience because they just naturally are the audience for these kinds of games, or if it's because these kinds of games pander to them.

Two -- and I'll admit freely that this is entirely subjective -- I personally feel like it's important to push back against the assumed idea that "this is what dudes want!!!" I can't speak for everyone, but when it seems like hot, sexy female characters are thrown in there because "sex sells," I feel compelled to push back against that. Mind you, publishers don't have to defer to me. If they've got data that for every one Steve Youngblood out there that dislikes Quiet's design there's 5 other guys out there that love it, then c'est la vie. They don't have to change their vision on my account. But the older I get, the more embarrassing this stuff becomes to me. Maybe it's just because I'm a boring, old family man now. But it just strikes me as juvenile when it feels like the impetus behind decisions is "if our audience goes five minutes without getting an erection, we're not doing our jobs right."

But having said that, I do want to be careful not to try and name and shame people who like this content. One of Kojima's motivating reasons for Quiet's design was to see sexy cosplay. And I'm sure there are adult women out there who are more than eager to cosplay as Quiet of their own free will. I don't want to make those people feel guilty as though they are contributing to the subjugation of women all over the world for simply not being offended at Quiet's design. You like it? You think it's sexy? Fair enough. But if you are asking my opinion? Kill it. Kill it with fire.


And I also realize that we are on kind of tenuous ground about moral responsibility with regards to sexualization. I get points that people make in terms of actions having unintended consequences and the importance of industry leaders to be conscience of how they are serving as custodians for future generations. But at the same time, I also sort of understand why it might seem silly to expect someone to adhere to a moral highground in regards to constantly evolving viewpoints about social responsibility in some stupid game where our hero(es) square(s) off against bipedal tanks with nuclear first strike capabilities and vampires and fat guys on rollers skates and cyborg ninjas.

This is a good post and I agree with it. My issue is with people who disagree with the bolded paragraph.

I can totally sympathize with being embarrassed and annoyed by vapid pandering - my eyes rolled into the back of my head at Camilla's intro in Fire Emblem Birthright. What bothers me is when people cross the line into shaming and bullying both the creators and the consumers for enjoying these things.

Just because I don't like something or find something uncomfortable doesn't mean that I want it to stop existing.
 

AkumaNiko

Member
I think the people who want less sexualized women in games are in the minority.

The game producers will pander to the majority of gamers who, quite frankly, don't give a shit

You might have western devs change things up, but good luck coming from Japan
 

SomTervo

Member
I know that there are often (very justified) complaints about too much sexualization of women in games, but I'd much rather the response to that be having more sexualized male characters rather than just less sexualization. I want people to, rather than denounce the sexualization of female characters in games, encourage developers and push developers to sexualize more male characters.

I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I genuinely think that games that pander in this manner are more enjoyable as a result of their pandering. I mean people buying titles like Senran Kagura certainly aren't buying them solely for the gameplay, that's for sure. And whilst Death Stranding is undoubtedly a much more serious game that isn't about fanservice, I don't think such fanservice necessarily takes away from the gameplay and delivery of the game itself.

I actually totally agree with you, I'm just waxing lyrical about the damage that can be caused by the way Kojima handles things.

You played God Hand? One of my favourite go-to examples in this discussion. It's a game full of scantily clad women AND scantily clad men. There's a scene where two huge, hench, black men in thongs attack the player with a horde of other scantily clad men.

It. Is. Amazing.
 

Toxi

Banned
I can and would say it about many things. Developers care about the things you listed for many reasons, but to say they "generally don't effect sales" is a bit dishonest. Because they do, they obviously do.
No, they don't. There's a reason why developers rarely bother targeting 60 FPS.

You keep talking about flaws, but Kojima does not see these things as flaws and that is 100% his right.
Sure, and it 100% people's right to see them as flaws and complain about them.
 

Battlechili

Banned
I actually totally agree with you, I'm just waxing lyrical about the damage that can be caused by the way Kojima handles things.

You played God Hand? One of my favourite go-to examples in this discussion. It's a game full of scantily clad women AND scantily clad men. There's a scene where two huge, hench, black men in thongs attack the player with a horde of other scantily clad men.

It. Is. Amazing.
I've not, but I've heard nothing but good things about God Hand and intend to play it someday. I think Capcom mentioned something a few years ago about a possible PC port of it and then went hush hush ever since? Well regardless, if nothing ever comes of that I'll definitely track it down for PS2.
Also this
 
This is a good post and I agree with it. My issue is with people who disagree with the bolded paragraph.

I can totally sympathize with being embarrassed and annoyed by vapid pandering - my eyes rolled into the back of my head at Camilla's intro in Fire Emblem Birthright. What bothers me is when people cross the line into shaming and bullying both the creators and the consumers for enjoying these things.

Just because I don't like something or find something uncomfortable doesn't mean that I want it to stop existing.

Do you think it's ethical to create work that can have tangible negative effects on its consumers? Because excessive contact with sexual objectification does. That's the baseline. Our context is one of severe sexual objectification in many facets of our daily lives, and games with sexual objectified characters add to that.

Often erotica manages to do its thing perfectly without sexual objectification, so why can't games do it?
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm sorry but this isn't criticism, this thread is borderline fucking nitpicky insane.
"This character's entire purpose in this game was to be a rape victim and her body was used for shock value via voyeuristic images of a bomb being ripped out of her, with emphasize on how painful it is, her next appearance in her in a very sexualized version of a hospital gown that doesn't exist, followed by her constantly remembering what happened to her previously, this is problematic, as is the fact that the player can also collect sensual posters of this character."

"ugh fuck stop being so nitpicky"

Have you ever been in a critique in your life?

I think the people who want less sexualized women in games are in the minority.

The game producers will pander to the majority of gamers who, quite frankly, don't give a shit

You might have western devs change things up, but good luck coming from Japan
If people who want less sexualized women in games were the minority then you wouldn't have such an active pushback against it and such a complete a total shift in terms of representation from a lot of big studios this gen. More and more devs are pandering to the people who DO give a shit, because while previously they were forced to do juvenile shit they're now allowed to treat the opposite gender as actual people.
 

flkraven

Member
This is a good post and I agree with it. My issue is with people who disagree with the bolded paragraph.

I can totally sympathize with being embarrassed and annoyed by vapid pandering - my eyes rolled into the back of my head at Camilla's intro in Fire Emblem Birthright. What bothers me is when people cross the line into shaming and bullying both the creators and the consumers for enjoying these things.

Just because I don't like something or find something uncomfortable doesn't mean that I want it to stop existing.

My only comment on this would be that Kojima isn't claiming that he objectifies women because his audience enjoys it. He is actually claiming that these and future sexualized women will be justified by 'deep back stories' which is patently untrue based on years of evidence.

So you can enjoy it, sure, but don't claim it's something that it's not. Quiet is nothing more than an object, and that's how Kojima treated her throughout.
 
me waiting for japanese game designers to discover feminism

No, that's me waiting for you to stop generalising and putting every single japanese developer ever in the same basket of being sexist or making sexist games. Jesus Christ.

This is also a game that tries to shock you with a 14 year old blowing up because of a fucking bomb in her vagina.

A dumb joke in a game 20 years ago doesn't excuse the gross-ass shit in the game from 2 years ago. That's not how progress works.

1. She's not 14 at all.
2. The entire point is that it was gross-ass shit because skullface is SO EVIL. The rest of the plot then fails to deliver on that point but it doesn't really have much to do with Quiet or titillation.

MGS has Meryl in panties and MGS2 had posters of women in bikinis spread over Tanker and Big Shell. None of his games are free of sexually objectified women. His older games, like Snatcher and Policenauts, have similar representations of women. His games all have these things.

MGS2 has guards in underwear and also posters of muscular dudes. The panties thing in MGS1 is a hidden easter egg that doesn't even focus on her panties/ass when you get in the room. The posters are silly, but are you really comparing MGS2, with characters like Olga, Fortune or Emma to MGSV with Quiet? Dude.


"This character's entire purpose in this game was to be a rape victim and her body was used for shock value via voyeuristic images of a bomb being ripped out of her, with emphasize on how painful it is, her next appearance in her in a very sexualized version of a hospital gown that doesn't exist, followed by her constantly remembering what happened to her previously, this is problematic, as is the fact that the player can also collect sensual posters of this character."

Intestines are sexy now? I think you're going overboard with Paz. The cutscenes in the hospital room are not sexualized and are pretty depressing actually. And where are the sensual posters you're talking about?
 

Euphor!a

Banned
No, they don't. There's a reason why developers rarely bother targeting 60 FPS.


Sure, and it 100% people's right to see them as flaws and complain about them.


And when they do it is for a reason, I wonder what that reason is. Could it be because the game they are making is significantly improved by a higher framerate and not having one could hurt reception and thus sales?

Edit: I also love how you single out 60 FPS, hopefully it is because you realized how dumb the other arguments were.
 

Producer

Member
7583c90eacd71cd7eed57420ac5843d0.gif


Not this time, Kojima... just outright admit if you're gonna sexualise the characters... don't hide behind a shield of white armour.

woah
 

AkumaNiko

Member
"This character's entire purpose in this game was to be a rape victim and her body was used for shock value via voyeuristic images of a bomb being ripped out of her, with emphasize on how painful it is, her next appearance in her in a very sexualized version of a hospital gown that doesn't exist, followed by her constantly remembering what happened to her previously, this is problematic, as is the fact that the player can also collect sensual posters of this character."

"ugh fuck stop being so nitpicky"

Have you ever been in a critique in your life?


If people who want less sexualized women in games were the minority then you wouldn't have such an active pushback against it and such a complete a total shift in terms of representation from a lot of big studios this gen. More and more devs are pandering to the people who DO give a shit, because while previously they were forced to do juvenile shit they're now allowed to treat the opposite gender as actual people.



A very vocal minority can have a huge impact just like anyone. Western game devs want to avoid the backlash from anyone so they just abide by complaints

And then you have people like koji who just, in my opinion, trolled everyone
 
MGS2 has guards in underwear and also posters of muscular dudes. The panties thing in MGS1 is a hidden easter egg that doesn't even focus on her panties/ass when you get in the room. The posters are silly, but are you really comparing MGS2, with characters like Olga, Fortune or Emma to MGSV with Quiet? Dude.

Yes, i am. Quiet is just an example of severe poignancy. Point was even his best representations of women existed amidst constant sexual objectification.
 
Do you think it's ethical to create work that can have tangible negative effects on its consumers? Because excessive contact with sexual objectification does. That's the baseline. Our context is one of severe sexual objectification in many facets of our daily lives, and games with sexual objectified characters add to that.

Just out of curiosity do you just go around your day to day thinking people are idiots and need saving from themselves?
 

ZSeba

Member
No, that's me waiting for you to stop generalising and putting every single japanese developer ever in the same basket of being sexist or making sexist games. Jesus Christ.

You'd have to be blind if you don't see that most (but not all) of the sexual objectification of women in videogames come from Japan
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Intestines are sexy now? I think you're going overboard with Paz. The cutscenes in the hospital room are not sexualized and are pretty depressing actually. And where are the sensual posters you're talking about?
Voyeuristic was the wrong word, exploitive. They didn't feel very genuine and felt incredibly exploitive. And a reminder this is what the "gown" looks like:
6r0wj58.gif


Before jumping to the defense of this as something the player just has to see, remember this game came out in 2015, we have a lot more rendering power:
q1I80OR.gif


or they could've done a camera cut while they switched in a different model, there was no reason to have the her constantly exposed.
and this is a poster you can find ingame:
mSEyfyq.png
 
Yes, i am. Quiet is just an example of severe poignancy. Point was even his best representations of women existed amidst constant sexual objectification.

The Boss, Olga or Meryl "exist amidst constant sexual objectification"? You mean, as in, a poster of a japanese pin-up somewhere in the game invalidates the characters themselves?
 
Just out of curiosity do you just go around your day to day thinking people are idiots and need saving from themselves?

Why, you feeling stupid?

The Boss, Olga or Meryl "exist amidst constant sexual objectification"? You mean, as in, a poster of a japanese pin-up somewhere in the game invalidates their entire character?

Not the characters themselves, but the suggestion that MGS5 is newfound grounds of sexual objectification for Kojima is not true. Policenauts was full of it too.
 
Sure, but that is in no way an inherently invalid approach to the creative process, particularly a collaborative one.

yeah, but its also understandable why its so off putting to people. When your priority seems to be to have naked, orgasming girls wobbling towards snake, and then come up with a justification for that afterwards (assuming this part) its going to be both unique and also obvious to the point of being a little bit cringe.

Maybe Kojimas just that much of a genius though
 

Battlechili

Banned
Why, you feeling stupid?
I think his intent was to say that he doesn't think creative works should try to ensure that they cause no harm to those who consume said works. That people should pass judgement for themselves before consuming a product as to what consequences said product may have upon them. Or, to put things more simply, that the responsibility lies on the consumer to ensure that what they consume is safe for them rather than the creator who is making this artistic work.
 

Fhtagn

Member
if he's going to insist on making high budget softcore porn, can he at least offer a "modesty mode" (for lack of a better term) for those of us interested in everything else about his games?

Another ridiculous character like Quiet will kill my interest in this game otherwise.
 
I'd have far more respect for devs if they just admitted to creating these characters just cause they like some T&A. Anything is better than attempting to justify this crap as "Well-developed" or even worse "empowering."
 

Audioboxer

Member
I think the people who want less sexualized women in games are in the minority.

The game producers will pander to the majority of gamers who, quite frankly, don't give a shit

You might have western devs change things up, but good luck coming from Japan

Well, sure, you ain't going to get Kojima to stop being Kojima, but his fans do mostly hope he'll return to MGS1~4 levels, as 5 was shit. Those who want a complete absence of sexual content are just never going to get it from Kojima. Or it's going to be in his own time, as I said earlier I don't think the guy takes on board much criticism.
 
I think his intent was to say that he doesn't think creative works should try to ensure that they cause no harm to those who consume said works. That people should pass judgement for themselves before consuming a product as to what consequences said product may have upon them. Or, to put things more simply, that the responsibility lies on the consumer to ensure that what they consume is safe for them rather than the creator who is making this artistic work.

I struggle with eloquence.
 

jtb

Banned
frankly, more than anything, it's just fucking embarrassing.

like, really?

Do you think it's ethical to create work that can have tangible negative effects on its consumers? Because excessive contact with sexual objectification does. That's the baseline. Our context is one of severe sexual objectification in many facets of our daily lives, and games with sexual objectified characters add to that.

Often erotica manages to do its thing perfectly without sexual objectification, so why can't games do it?

eh, I think the ethics argument is a bad one. artists can make whatever they want.

the real problem with kojima (and he's hardly the only one in the industry to have this problem...) is that it's terrible.
 
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