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[Mael]

Great vid.

Nothing to disagree on, really.

 

[Fuchsdh]

The video extends the critique to over sexualization of exotic females to how games treats exotic cultures or non-white cultures with classy racist stereotypes. Because Ganon, and Gerudo, are depicted with similar stereotypes as real cultures in the real world. The fact they are japanese, dosn't excuse them from these problems, specially when we are talking about games aimed to a worldwide audience.

I assume that's supposed to be "classic racist stereotypes", but it made me laugh imagining some shitty ethnic caricatures in evening finery.

The problem with her critique is she's focusing on the skin tone from a point of cultural ignorance.

The Japanese don't have the long issues with racial stereotypes stretching back from being used to justify African slavery. What most asian cultures *do* have is a very long association with skin tone relating to class that the west in comparison does not have to any same degree any longer. Ivory skin was prized before Asia was ever opened up to the west.

 

[sackninja]

Forget skin tone? Isn't it the entire point of the video?
Cia is a ridiculously sexualized character design, which is not something I expected to say of a Zelda character. This is sexist per se, but bundling evil, sexualized and black together frankly makes it pretty embarrassing. She even has a "non-evil" costume that is more modest... and makes her skin light.

I just looked up her alt costume... Holy Shit. She just straight up turns white when she becomes good.

 

[Nev]

I haven't played or care about Far Cry 3 but Chris from RE5 not only has ridiculously sexualized outfits, the character by default is a complete sexualization.

 

[Infinite]

I assume that's supposed to be "classic racist stereotypes", but it made me laugh imagining some shitty ethnic caricatures in evening finery.

The problem with her critique is she's focusing on the skin tone from a point of cultural ignorance.

The Japanese don't have the long issues with racial stereotypes stretching back from being used to justify African slavery. What most asian cultures *do* have is a very long association with skin tone relating to class that the west in comparison does not have to any same degree any longer. Ivory skin was prized before Asia was ever opened up to the west.

that's not true at all. minstrels shows were exported to japan and the rest of Asia for example

 

[ShyMel]

Sweet, I had been waiting for another video in season two. I had only heard about the villian of Far Cry 3 before this video. That was cringeworthy to watch.

 

[Inferno313]

She still doesn't do Spoiler warnings? Still?!?

Trying to tip-toe around spoilers is detrimental to good criticism. You'll get that lecture in just about any basic media studies course. To be able to talk about the problems of a piece of media, you need to be able to fully talk about that piece of media without holding back and tiptoeing around.

 

[Messofanego]

Especially in the exceptional settings games take place in, I doubt someone's ethnic or racial background is going to be essential to that character or the story the game is telling. That's not to say you can't construct such a narrative and have it work well, but where in Half-Life 2 was there ever going to be room for Alyx to expound on that stuff? Alyx is a good character*, and ultimately that's what matters; otherwise you're playing trope gambit and that way lies lunacy.

*Really the only flaw with her is the one that affects all NPCs in Half-Life—Gordon Freeman is a mute god everyone venerates. It was weird at the time and has only gotten weirder as games have embraced creating fleshed-out protagonists more and more versus blank slates.

Wolfenstein The New Order, which is often compared to Half Life 2 and is around the same length, had enough time to develop all of the side characters (J, Wyatt, Max, Fergus) including the women (Tekla, Anya, Caroline, Annette) into satisfying arcs. Set Roth brings plenty of his Jewish background into the fold of the main story. Keep in mind, that's over two timelines. Along with The Old Blood.

Just too bad there aren't any women of colour in the games, but still isn't an excuse to miss side character development.

 

[John Kowalski]

I had no idea Far Cry 3's story was so fucking dumb. Holy hell man.

This one was such a disappointment. I felt like they were going for a kind of Heart of Darkness story, and i guess in their own dumb way they managed to let it show a little, but with so, so many missteps. Do i want a story about rich white americans being so taken by their imperalistic, racist fantasies that they become horrible monsters? Yeah, i do, but not one that completely misses the true considerations of those themes.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

She still doesn't do Spoiler warnings? Still?!?

Anyone watching these vids by now should know that you can't really do a proper analysis of the characters and stories without potentially spoiling plot points. C'mon.

Besides, who the hell cares about being spoiled such a shite story like Far Cry 3?

 

[Mael]

that's not true at all. minstrels shows were exported to japan and the rest of Asia for example

Osamu Tezuka even work with the tropes in his works,
I don't think that's a niche author in Japan.

Heck the very fact that the alt costume exists in RE5 shows that they're plenty aware of the meaning of the racist tropes.

 

[Inferno313]

that's not true at all. minstrels shows were exported to japan and the rest of Asia for example

The classic: "racism doesn't exist in x country because they didn't have slavery" defense. Pops up in every thread on OT about black face in Europe.

 

[Goliath]

tHE DARK And light skin thing is actually apparent in various Japanese media.
It is the reason Raoh from Hokuto no Ken, for example, has darker skin tone.

In Mahou Shoujou series, darker clothes more often than not are an indication that the magic girl is evil.

Yea Evil Ryu and Evil Ken also get a tan when compared to their "good" versions.

 

[Fuchsdh]

that's not true at all. minstrels shows were exported to japan and the rest of Asia for example

Yes, it is. It was a thing way before minstrels ever made it to their shores.

There's still plenty of problems wrapped up in beauty standards and their applicability to people who don't meet a homogenous ethnic identity, and there's certainly problems with Japan especially spouting racist stereotypes, but she's dead wrong in her framing.

http://www.law.uci.edu/lawreview/vol3/no4/Jones.pdf

The classic: "racism doesn't exist in x country because they didn't have slavery" defense. Pops up in every thread on OT about black face in Europe.

Ah, the classic "didn't actually read the comment but want to bitch and sidetrack the topic" routine. Pops up in every thread you pollute.

 

[Mael]

The classic: "racism doesn't exist in x country because they didn't have slavery" defense. Pops up in every thread on OT about black face in Europe.

This is actually stupider, like who put the slave system in place in the New World to begin with?

 

[Alo0oy]

I assume that's supposed to be "classic racist stereotypes", but it made me laugh imagining some shitty ethnic caricatures in evening finery.

The problem with her critique is she's focusing on the skin tone from a point of cultural ignorance.

The Japanese don't have the long issues with racial stereotypes stretching back from being used to justify African slavery. What most asian cultures *do* have is a very long association with skin tone relating to class that the west in comparison does not have to any same degree any longer. Ivory skin was prized before Asia was ever opened up to the west.

Slavery is not the only form of racism or racist stereotypes.

 

[GameCenterXDS]

I thought everyone knew how "racist" Japan is/was. I guess it's not "race" but look at Punch Out. Drunken Vodkainski and all that stuff haha. Japan did not really want to join the rest of the world the way it is now... And now Japan is western like a mini USA.

 

[Charamiwa]

Wolfenstein The New Order, which is often compared to Half Life 2 and is around the same length, had enough time to develop all of the side characters (J, Wyatt, Max, Fergus) including the women (Tekla, Anya, Caroline, Annette) into satisfying arcs. Set Roth brings plenty of his Jewish background into the fold of the main story. Keep in mind, that's over two timelines. Along with The Old Blood.

You're saying this as if Half Life somehow failed to develop the side characters? They didn't even try, it wasn't what they were going for. That's one the design choices I like about the series.

 

[Calcaneus]

Great video.

 

[Intheflorsh]

This made me remember the Far Cry 3 writer's hilarious attempt to justify the racism as satire:

[Becoming agitated again] The sex scene [at the midpoint] – first Jason is shooting at that gigantic monster. He kills the monster, and it jump-cuts to him orgasming with Citra! He’s firing sperm at this gigantic monster, and then suddenly he’s on this alter with Citra, having sex with her, and then he thinks he’s the leader of the tribe and makes the big speech, and it’s his power fantasy! That’s the other thing – it’s all from first-person, so it’s completely unreliable. There’s a reason why Jason is a 25 year old white guy from Hollywood – these are all ideas that are in his head. You’re seeing things through his eyes. That’s why the Alice quotes are there, and why Willis’s database entries are written from Willis’s perspective, and not written from a universal perspective. So the game is all from a series of perspectives, and I think it’s all there. And again, you could say to me, “Why isn’t this even more exaggerated?”, but why should it have to be? I don’t understand why what I did isn’t so insanely exaggerated already. What you’re saying is that games are so bad with this stuff that it has to be so through the roof – I mean, male rape, having this transition, having the end of the game be that she kills you while having sex with you? And she says, “you win,” as you’re dying. The only thing more outrageous I could think of is if she castrated him.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/12/19/far-cry-3s-jeffrey-yohalem-on-racism-torture-and-satire/

 

[Inferno313]

Ah, the classic "didn't actually read the comment but want to bitch and sidetrack the topic" routine. Pops up in every thread you pollute.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I assume that's supposed to be "classic racist stereotypes", but it made me laugh imagining some shitty ethnic caricatures in evening finery.

The problem with her critique is she's focusing on the skin tone from a point of cultural ignorance.

The Japanese don't have the long issues with racial stereotypes stretching back from being used to justify African slavery. What most asian cultures *do* have is a very long association with skin tone relating to class that the west in comparison does not have to any same degree any longer. Ivory skin was prized before Asia was ever opened up to the west.

Does it matter they don't have a history of racial stereotypes, when they fall in the same racial stereotypes that in the western works? The problem with Zelda Hyrule Warriors (and Zelda with Ganon and the Gerudo people) is not only the sking tone used as "evil" meaning, but how the game treats exotic cultural references with the same stereotypes. Is not a caricature, but is not less offensive because of that.

Something similar happened when Bravely Default 2 changed their native american costume, because it was clearly offensive. Japan dosn't have an history of racism against native americans, but that dosn't excuse them when they represent said culture in their games with similar racists stereotypes.

 

[Faustek]

About the video, can't find much to disagree, except I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if Alyx or Nilin's heritage isn't explicitly explored. It doesn't have to be.

Yepp, this always annoys the hell out of me. Especially when another pigment enriched person says it. Just shows how Caucasian has really become the defacto standard and if you see someone on the darker scale they have to be justified in some way.


Fuck that, you don't need a deeper reason for why Musa from Zimbabwe is there other than he is there to kick ass! Hell he doesn't even need a name or a country of origin. Heck he and Dua can just be random npcs or just the set vehicle for us players into the game without having to justify their skin color because you know what? We've always been part of the world. We're just as normal as everyone else.

 

[DrArchon]

Sweet, I had been waiting for another video in season two. I had only heard about the villian of Far Cry 3 before this video. That was cringeworthy to watch.

Seriously, I heard from a lot of people that FC3's story was "white savior" incarnate, but that was just painful to watch. Whoever came up with that should be ashamed of themselves.

Also, I take a bit of umbrage with her saying that Sheva's normal costume is more appropriate to her line of work. Her normal costume is also terrible and unnecessarily sexualized. I can't imagine anyone having a uniform that reveals that much skin when their primary job is to kill zombies.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I think The Secret World was pretty good with diversity. Lots of characters from many, many ways of life, none of them felt sexualized or overly stereotypical.

 

[Mael]

You have to be fucking blind to not see shitty racist stereotypes in Japanese culture.
Like really you can't see shit for some reason.
They're pretty open about it and care less than they do about what the Japanese military did in Korea.

 

[LionPride]

Woof, can't wait to watch this one. Gonna be good

 

[Skronk]

Awesome, I love these videos.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Did I read that Ganondorf/Gerudos were based on the depiction of Arabian people in Lawrence of Arabia, or am I just mistaken?

Yepp, this always annoys the hell out of me. Especially when another pigment enriched person says it. Just shows how Caucasian has really become the defacto standard and if you see someone on the darker scale they have to be justified in some way.


Fuck that, you don't need a deeper reason for why Musa from Zimbabwe is there other than he is there to kick ass! Hell he doesn't even need a name or a country of origin. Heck he and Dua can just be random npcs or just the set vehicle for us players into the game without having to justify their skin color because you know what? We've always been part of the world. We're just as normal as everyone else.

I don't think that is what is trying to be conveyed. I think the point is that it's so rare that a non-white person's heritage is both important and handled well.

 

[Greddleok]

I should play Watchdogs 2.

 

[Samara]

Great video. I'll add that in Dance Central 3 the sisters Taye and Lil'T are plastered with black culture reference in their clothing. That's how you do it right.

 

[psychowave]

Fantastic video as usual. I'm glad she went into the light skin = good character, dark skin = evil character trope. As shameful as it is, as a white person this is a trope I only recently noticed myself, and it's in all forms of media.

 

[NEO0MJ]

On the bright side with Zelda it seems they later made the Gerudo more heroic and that Ganon was an outlier rather than the norm.

 

[Collin]

This woman usually annoys me because I often find her arguments to be weak, poorly executed and exaggerated to better fit her feminist worldview. This video, however, was mostly pretty accurate, factual and informative. I also really like that she ended the video of positive examples of where this trope has been re-evaluated and done well - that's something her earlier videos really lacked.

 

[Abelard]

Man I could tell RE5 would be involved just by reading the title.

 

[APF]

If a culture has a basis for stereotyping eg skin color, that only means they have even more to draw upon in justifying imported stereotypes re: skin color.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yepp, this always annoys the hell out of me. Especially when another pigment enriched person says it. Just shows how Caucasian has really become the defacto standard and if you see someone on the darker scale they have to be justified in some way.


Fuck that, you don't need a deeper reason for why Musa from Zimbabwe is there other than he is there to kick ass! Hell he doesn't even need a name or a country of origin. Heck he and Dua can just be random npcs or just the set vehicle for us players into the game without having to justify their skin color because you know what? We've always been part of the world. We're just as normal as everyone else.

I don't think Anita would necessarily disagree, to be honest. In the context of her argument, she's just really lamenting that whenever black women are in games, their cultural background is either stereotyped to all hell, or not mentioned at all. I certainly don't think she would go with the "only PoC characters if they're well written plz" concern trolling, haha.

Seriously, I heard from a lot of people that FC3's story was "white savior" incarnate, but that was just painful to watch. Whoever came up with that should be ashamed of themselves.

Reading a post a bit above yours, it appears the writers were attempting satire? I don't know if I believe that, but if it was really the intent, well, I don't think it was very successful. xD

Also, I take a bit of umbrage with her saying that Sheva's normal costume is more appropriate to her line of work. Her normal costume is also terrible and unnecessarily sexualized. I can't imagine anyone having a uniform that reveals that much skin when their primary job is to kill zombies.

I can see what you mean but at least it looks like normal clothing worn by a normal person, and not clothing that would be a hindrance to their job (e.g. high heels, an outfit that would fall off if she so much as starts running, etc.).

I mean... this is the state of the game industry we are in. We must celebrate whenever a needlessly sexualized female character at least looks like she's wearing real clothing. Small victories. XD

This woman usually annoys me because I often find her arguments to be weak, poorly executed and exaggerated to better fit her feminist worldview. This video, however, was mostly pretty accurate, factual and informative. I also really like that she ended the video of positive examples of where this trope has been re-evaluated and done well - that's something her earlier videos really lacked.

It honestly appears you have not actually watched her prior videos, because every Tropes v. Women in Games video has been the way you describe.

 

[Enduin]

Another solid piece that I can't say I disagree with any point or example.

The lack of good representations of minority cultures in games is saddening as the medium has a lot to offer and provides unique abilities to explore and learn about different peoples and cultures. It's unfortunate that when they do get used in games they do so as window dressing or just as the taste of the exotic to tantalize the player, with little regard for the real thing.

I have hopes that in BotW we will see a much more fleshed out and well presented side to the Gerudo.

 

[Reckless Abandon]

Probably her best video. Despite this subject being easy pickings, she's a lot fairer on the games and the context behind each costume/character/unlockable etc. and it strengthens her argument. Before, I felt her examples were too circumstantial and a little deceptive.

Really good job.

Interesting, I'll have to watch this one. I typically agree with the bolded and it's what I think about pretty much every time I see them release a new video. It just seems like she likes to manufacture outrage about things that aren't really that outrageous.

Like, would I be outraged if there was an alternate (completely optional) costume for Chris where he is wearing a tight pink banana hammock? No, I just wouldn't select that costume and would avoid the precisely programmed dong physics.

They're making their money, though, and there is obviously a market for it, so more power to them.

 

[Messofanego]

Did I read that Ganondorf/Gerudos were based on the depiction of Arabian people in Lawrence of Arabia, or am I just mistaken?

Don't know about Lawrence Of Arabia, but the Gerudo definitely have Arabic elements (along with other "exotic" cultures) with deserts, thievery (Forty Thieves), focus on horses, the shield's symbol before it got altered, and clothing like this.

 

[Platy]

Also, I take a bit of umbrage with her saying that Sheva's normal costume is more appropriate to her line of work. Her normal costume is also terrible and unnecessarily sexualized. I can't imagine anyone having a uniform that reveals that much skin when their primary job is to kill zombies.

1) Her primary job was not killing zombies =P
2) Yeah, she is just above average considering gaming clothing ... the bar is not very high

 

[Kinsei]

This is something I've always been uncomfortable with in games.

No matter how much you love Hyrule Warriors there's no denying that the way they handle Cia is racist as fuck. Then they just had to go and give her a costume that makes her white bundled in as part of the first DLC pack.

On the bright side with Zelda it seems they later made the Gerudo more heroic and that Ganon was an outlier rather than the norm.

The only game where the Gerudo are not portrayed as villains (Nabooru was the outlier, not Ganondorf) is Four Swords Adventures. Hell, in TP it seems like all of the Gerudo were executed by the Hyrulians.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Seriously, I heard from a lot of people that FC3's story was "white savior" incarnate, but that was just painful to watch. Whoever came up with that should be ashamed of themselves.

Also, I take a bit of umbrage with her saying that Sheva's normal costume is more appropriate to her line of work. Her normal costume is also terrible and unnecessarily sexualized. I can't imagine anyone having a uniform that reveals that much skin when their primary job is to kill zombies.

Until 5 and 6 a lot of the main characters in RE weren't dressed to kill zombies. They mostly had basic uniforms.

 

[televator]

Fantastic episode. I remember starting up Farcry once and then just going "Uhhhhh... this shit is blatant."

 

[CecilRousso]

just to warn people who haven't finished Far Cry 3 yet,story and ending spoiler in the video.

No one should feel any loss if they're spoiled by this. Far Cry 3's story is the most infuriatingly stupid story I've encountered in any game so far. Haven't bought a single Ubisoft AAA game since that.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

The male witch doctor is just as much of a stereotype. Its fine to point this out but it does seem to have been ignored that he even exists.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

No one should feel any loss if they're spoiled by this. Far Cry 3's story is the most infuriatingly stupid story I've encountered in any game so far. Haven't bought a single Ubisoft AAA game since that.

Ubisoft got way better with representation since Far Cry 3. Watch Dogs 2 alone proves it.

 

[Inferno313]

The male witch doctor is just as much of a stereotype. Its fine to point this out but it does seem to have been ignored that he even exists.

The video is about sexualized exoticism, the male character IS also a stereotype, but he's not as sexualized as the female version. I think it makes sense to leave him out.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Until 5 and 6 a lot of the main characters in RE weren't dressed to kill zombies. They mostly had basic uniforms.

Chris in 5 wears also quite casual clothes too, not only Sheva.

 

[Moonkid]

Sheesh, that Hyrule Warriors example is as blatant as it gets lol.