Good old Microsoft:
They make it sound as if the improvements to the CPU reduce the workload from "hundreds of thousands" to just 11 or 9
Eh, I didn't get that impression at all. But then again I know how computers work so I read around it.
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Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
Eh, I didn't get that impression at all. But then again I know how computers work so I read around it.
I found a sane post here.
Well yes, speficially in draw calls, one area of optimisation.Yes, that's plausible (the 50%), but if you read the quote it suggests:
"several hundred thousands" / 11 which is at least 900000% improvement
Exactly. I dont really know how many Xbox 'enthusiasts' there are out there. Couple million If im very generous.
If MS sell it this Christmas at $499 against a cheaper Playstation + the games its pumping out..... I just dont see any logic there.
We are also coming from a 12 month period where we have had 2 new SKUs, a Pro and a new Nintendo console.
is it? Seems in the same range to me, Scorpio= PS4Pro x1.40 aprox
No. The point is that a CPU has to submit a lot of draw calls to the GPU where each call takes x number of instructions to execute. That sentence is clumsily constructed. It doesn't say how many instructions it takes on average to submit a draw call without offload, so we don't actually know how much of an improvement is really there.
For all we know on Xb an average dx12 draw call is 14 instructions.
You know what, I"m quite sick of the negativity. Let's just say both are equal, infact the PS4Pro is more powerful. And be done with it. Then I can actually concentrate on reading the actual deepdives about the technology without having to read through tripe about which one is more capable or "It's just a jaguar". I want to learn what they did with it, especially on the power management front to keep power usage down and temperatures cool. Not discuss with some Sony fan about who has a bigger length between it's legs.
I'll gladly tell you over and over that the PS4 pro is more powerful, even in DM's. Just please let's discuss the architecture then as well okay? (I really don't care that much about which console is the stronger one, in fact as stated before more into it for the engineering reasons, as I'm a Nintendo Console + PC gamer. But it seems quite the novell design, and thus I would like to learn more about it. ).
Gpu raw power is that but with way more ram, bandwidth, and more hardware changes it adds up
It's a rough call but I guess one factor is that the Xbox One has a faster CPU than the PS4 so that's just another criteria that Scorpio has over the Pro. I think the 50% higher memory bandwidth is huge too.
You seem to be basing everything on the GPU. Power of a console is everything combined. There is not one thing the PS4 Pro has specs wise that is in its favor. I think people forgot the Xbox One had a better CPU in it than PS4.
The RAM could be a huge deal especially if it allows more 4k assets overall.
This thing sounds beast at least as far as ANY console on market goes.
antyk
Member
Exactly. However - as you said - maybe I'm being oversensitive and actively looking for the "MS spin" where there is none, but indeed the sentence is poorly constructed
PeskyToaster
Member
I'd like to see the stats for other games besides racing games. They seem to be commonly used for this kind of stuff because they aren't super taxing compared to an open world game.
BigLee74
Member
When all is said and done, this thing is a beast.
I will be more than happy to upgrade from my Xbox One (which will have given me 4 great years when the time comes around).
The performance increase will be significant, but most importantly of all, all my existing Xbox One & Xbox 360 games will continue to work - and better!
I will be more than happy to upgrade from my Xbox One (which will have given me 4 great years when the time comes around).
The performance increase will be significant, but most importantly of all, all my existing Xbox One & Xbox 360 games will continue to work - and better!
Locuza
Member
PS4: 1.6 Ghz Jaguar
Xbox One: 1.75 Ghz Jaguar
PS4: 1.84 TF
Xbox One: 1.31 TF
PS4: 176 GB/s GDDR5
Xbox One: 68 GB/s DDR3 + 218 GB/s eSRAM (32MB)
Both use 8 GB memory, 5 GB are for games.
--------
PS4 Pro: 2.1 Ghz Jaguar
Xbox One: 2.3 Ghz Jaguar
PS4 Pro: 4,2 TF
Xbox Scorpio: 6 TF
PS4 Pro: 218 GB/s
Xbox Scorpio: 326 GB/s
PS4 Pro: 8 GB, 5.5 GB for games
Xbox Scorpio: 12 GB, 8 GB for games
And then there is the custom stuff and the 4K bluray drive.
The gap is definitely bigger but the Xbox Scorpio also launches one year after the PS4 Pro.
errrr not sure if this is just adding ingredients and hey it is much bigger. As some have said before, things need to be balanced, especially if we are aiming 4K here that needs more of everything: More bandwith and ram, improved cpu are expected to keep up with gpu improvements, that are about 40%, so the rest of the pack will probably boost the device about that amount too if done well (in fact, no expert againt, but the limiting factor here seems to be the CPU, since ram and bandwith seem to have improven over that 40%, but the CPU is below that....)
Gpu wise is a 2%? bigger than the XBO-PS4 gap , memory...well can't say since XBO uses SRAM+ really slow memory difficult to compare with vanilla PS4.
Seems in the same range to me. about 40% increase. Not sure what UHDBray has to do with gaming here. PS4, PS4pro also have custom stuff, if you believe in secret sauces, pick your favorite flavor. I choose to pick none.
Interfectum
Member
Yup. I don't own an Xbox One so Scorpio's benefit to me is seeing how it handles future games like RDR2 vs the Pro. But for people who own an XBO and have a ton of games for it, Scorpio is going to be great for them.
In what universe does that look bad?Going by the one screenshot we have, it does look a bit bad though.
edit:
The image I mentioned. Give it some proper AA and there goes the 66% GPU utilization.
And as we know over the years that clockspeed difference didn't make any difference in majority big cases.
Edit -
Of course am not saying the difference between Pro and Scorpio isn't bigger than XB1/PS4. Just saying a difference doesn't necessarily always translate to perceived differences we will see depending on circumstances.
40% of 4.2 is much larger than 40% of 1.3.
Make sense?
With the bandwidth and RAM upgrades I expect this console to be future proof for quite a while into the next generation.
To archive 40% more GPU performance you need 40% more "raw power" and 40% more bandwidth. So yes, you have 3GB more RAM for better 4k Textures.
The "secret sauce" Sony and MS claim for themselves rarely did much in both base models, in the pro and won't do this time.
They just try to obstruct that they are in the unfortunate situation, that they both build their machines practically from the same parts and have only very limited influence on the outcome.
Denial
Caio
Member
PS5 will have 32GB of total system RAM, mark my words.
wesleyshark
Banned
And a Titan as well, I'm assuming? Lol
It really won't...
So only who agree with you is a sane person? The PS4 was superior to X1 because it had a way better GPU with more horsepower (more CU, more ROP, higher clock speed etc) a better and more faster RAM and the difference between the two console is small even today. The Pro is vastly superior to the base PS4 (Higher clock speed for CPU, a totally different and newer GPU, higher clock speed for RAM) and yet the difference between a base PS4 game and a PS4 Pro one are laughable for almost every game.
So for you the dev who doesn't want to make a good use of the PS4 Pro now will start develop with Scorpio in mind?
If so i'm glad to be insane :asd:
of course. Also the pixel count from 1080p to 4K is much larger than the pixel difference from 900p to 1080p so it is much needed to achieve real 4K that seems the case here.
Obviously devs can stick with lower resolutions with upscaling techniques and deliver much more detailed visuals.
Future will tell if it worth or not (same situation as with XBO vs PS4 games)
Well, technically - he called the guy dumb first and then said "no disrespect"
Also, on a very superficial level Scorpio IS an overclocked PS4 Pro - both the CPU and GPU are from the same architectural family, both use GDDR5 memory, both MS and Sony done customisations to the SoC, etc. Actually, Scorpio and PS4 Pro technically are much closer to each other than XB1 was to PS4
Do we know if Scorpio GPU feature Vega's RPM like PS4 Pro yet?
justsomeguy
Member
Downplayville.
No word yet. Same for the Id buffer.
wesleyshark
Banned
I hope so
Going by the one screenshot we have, it does look a bit bad though.
edit:
The image I mentioned. Give it some proper AA and there goes the 66% GPU utilization.
Is this Rad Racer?
Just price out a 480 and a really weak processor and you'll be most of the way there.
Definitely doable for $500.
The sdk MS created plus how devs can create Scorpio, pc, and OG XB1 in one sdk to make a game will allow them to fully use Scorpio no matter what. MS created a system for development that's leagues better. It's why there's so much upgrades to existing games and 360 too
Tripolygon
Banned
Yup it is. A proper sentence with full context would be something like "X number of functions are required to do X number of draw calls. We have now reduced those functions to just 11".Exactly. However - as you said - maybe I'm being oversensitive and actively looking for the "MS spin" where there is none, but indeed the sentence is poorly constructed
gaming_noob
Member
The DF reveal vid is approaching 700k views. Not bad since there were multiple videos. its not superb for a reveal but decent.
Prereveal we were hearing a lot of rumblings and rumors about forza 7 being shown and how impressive it was. Post reveal, it's clear Ledbetter only saw regular forza 6 in 4k as well as pc-ultra spec fm6 at 4k. Safe to assume the fm7 stuff was a mistake?
Unless I missed it, they didn't reveal the number of ROPs, did they?
Can't say I really agree. I think the differences between the OG PS4 and Pro is usually very noticeable. Just like the differences that we typically see between the XBO and PS4 are usually noticeable and they generally make sense considering the differences in the hardware. I'm expecting Scorpio to also have a noticeable leap over the Pro version most of the time. 4K textures should be used more often while also using higher end settings more consistently. IF the GPU really does approach 1070 levels of performance, you could use beyond console settings for most modern games at console frame rates.
Time will tell.
Can't say I really agree. I think the differences between the OG PS4 and Pro is usually very noticeable. Just like the differences that we typically see between the XBO and PS4 are usually noticeable and they generally make sense considering the differences in the hardware. I'm expecting Scorpio to also have a noticeable leap over the Pro version most of the time. 4K textures should be used more often while also using higher end settings more consistently. IF the GPU really does approach 1070 levels of performance, you could use beyond console settings for most modern games at console frame rates.
Time will tell.
Backfoggen
Banned
Well it's not actually a console reveal, it's a spec reveal which the vast majority of the consumer base don't really care about. Even amongst hardcore people people on NeoGAF.
I don't know if I would agree with that. When Scorpio was rumored to be zen/vega that would have made sense. But, the fact the cpu and gpu of PS4 Pro and Scorpio are basically from the same AMD jagur/polaris family (which is a few years old now). Brings in to question how MS engineers were able to customize more performance vs what Sony decided to do from silicon that's been on the market for some time.
scoobs
Member
They never could have made a Scorpio with Zen and Vega chips. Its completely unfeasible nonsense. It would have cost $699 to buy one day one.
They said it was double the ROPs of the Xbox One so 32 ROPs I think
ReplacementPelican
Member
This is an uber-nerd reveal, the actual console reveal will make waves. That being said a lot of people, myself included, probably just read the information as its the kind of thing you'd read rather than watch, I feel.
I can't breathe. That's amazing.Damn, lttp, probably, but CEO Kaz Hirai is the best twitter account ever:
https://twitter.com/KazHiraiCEO/status/850087856848723968
Brutal.