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Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio

leeh

Member
wtf, i am not downplaying anything. It is more powerful than PS4PRo , 40% gpu more powerful and a bit less CPU wise. And that , with the logical improvements in other areas ,like RAM, bandwith, makes it much more balanced than vanilla XBO, and similar to PS4Pro's CPU/GPU balance (maybe a little lesss or maybe a little more, time will tell), which some consider unbalanced due to CPU nature.

ANd this is a year later. Those are the facts. Nothing is downplayed or hyped, at least from my limited tech knowledge. I don't believe in secret sauces btw.

pd. stealht edit .... i see. I mean, it is fucking obvious that is more powerful, who is denying that? It is nonsense. debating if the upgrade is more or less that is another thing, despite the data we have that is also clear, whe have numbers!
The floating point operation count difference is 40% but that paints an invalid picture. With the clocks being considerably higher compared, the GPU is overall a lot more powerful. This will make it considerably stronger than any representative 6TFLOP GPU, hence DF saying the same.

I took the downplaying out cause I didn't agree when I read it back.
 

E-Cat

Member
The floating point operation count difference is 40% but that paints an invalid picture. With the clocks being considerably higher compared, the GPU is overall a lot more powerful. This will make it considerably stronger than any representative 6TFLOP GPU, hence DF saying the same.

I took the downplaying out cause I didn't agree when I read it back.
The clocks are incorporated into the flops number...
 

Syrus

Banned
The floating point operation count difference is 40% but that paints an invalid picture. With the clocks being considerably higher compared, the GPU is overall a lot more powerful. This will make it considerably stronger than any representative 6TFLOP GPU, hence DF saying the same.

I took the downplaying out cause I didn't agree when I read it back.

Im hoping this smashes the PRO in performance.

...only because Ive been stuck with X1 being the worse haha
 

leeh

Member
The clocks are incorporated into the flops number...
You're not following. There are many parts to a GPU what don't get taken into account into the TFLOPS number which get benefited by clock speed, like the fill rate and cache speed.
 

E-Cat

Member
You're not following. There is many parts to a GPU what don't get taken into account into the TFLOPS number which get benefited by clock speed, like the fill rate and cache speed.
Ah, sorry.

But like others have pointed out, that other stuff is not really additive to the 40% figure, because it's REQUIRED for that extra power to be fully utilized in the first place.
 

00ich

Member
Im hoping this smashes the PRO in performance.

...only because Ive been stuck with X1 being the worse haha

It will. It's basically an overclocked Pro with some more RAM.
Powerwise PS4 Pro to Scorpio is like PS4 to Xbox One, but reversed.

The Hype control by MS was just a bit lacking. People where expecting a next gen machine and that didn't happen.
 

JonCha

Member
Don't see how you can criticise them at this point really: they've delivered what they set out to do and then some.

I have a feeling it'll be pretty impressive given the design seems to avoid being a bulky mess if DF's hints are any indication.
 
Yup, there is no special customization and no secret sauce. When it comes to companies making noteworthy hardware customizations in the console space, that usually comes from Sony as they are a hardware company.

In this thread, we already have people claiming that the Scorpio is more powerful than the gtx 1080, lol. It's been really embarrassing coverage from digital foundry. Let Microsoft advertise their products by themselves. What we don't need is df trying to pass a paid ad as fact. I can't till the die shots come out from chip works.

Look, the Scorpio looks to be a fantastic piece of kit for a mid gen upgrade but it's just an rx480 and an overclocked jaguar. It's not more powerful than a 1080 or 1070 and once third party games drop, it'll be clear for everyone to see.

All I've seen today is the same pr nonsense we've seen with other consoles. Fp16, huma, power of the cloud, dx12 patch, and now it's a special dx12 co processor which is just a regular command processor. It's just sad and annoying.


Here is my issue with your perspective on this...


First off, i have not seen anyone comparing the 8 custome x86 cores of Scorpio to a GTX 1080. What people are comparing is the Scorpio's architecture as a whole to a GTX 1080, which any normal person who understands console customization would and should do.

Console optimization is fundamentally better than PC optimization and they naturally ARE, because they have access to lower level, more close-to-the-metal graphics APIs than are available on the PC, and this is fact.


The problem with PC's is that there's a billion different configurations that each PC can have, and the time to optimize for every possible configuration is nowhere near worth it, so you stick to generic, higher-level APIs. Yes, you get what you pay for, but not everything is working in tandem as with a highly developed worked out console. This is why consoles such as Xbox One, which was considered underpowered in 2013, is STILL in 2017 holding up and making games look competitive compared to high powered graphic cards.


With consoles, time allows greater optimizations, but developing for only one set of hardware, right from the very start, makes the process easier, much easier, which allows the developer to get much MUCH more out of the architecture then if trying to start from constant scratch.


It's obvious to me that you are looking at it as a piece by piece basis, you say about Scorpio... "it's just an rx480 and an overclocked jaguar. It's not more powerful than a 1080 or 1070 and once third party games drop, it'll be clear for everyone to see".

If Scorpio was a PC, you would be correct, but you are far from it, the Scorpio is it's own customized monster!


I been through this with the Saturn, the original Playstation, Dreamcast, ect, the list goes on. Every console back then was compared to $4000 Arcade architecture. The original PS proved that if you put your chips together correctly, you can get what you want out your system. MK3 was ARCADE PERFECT when it launched in OCT of 1995 on PS. The MIDWAY arcade board Tech alone to own would cost THOUSANDS, Sony accomplished this at a price of $299!!! This is where consoles kick ass!!! Fact is there is always someone out there who will try to downplay masterful architecture simply because they look at things from a small minded window. And this again, is fact.
 

antyk

Member
It's not just 40% percent though, that's my point. Due to the clocks between them, it means it's more powerful than that 40%.

Yes, it is still 40% though. That 40% is made up by more CUs and higher clock. All the other stuff 'around' it - bandwidth, caches, ROPs, etc. - are there to ensure optimal utilisation of the CUs at given clock, so if system was e.g. bandwidth-starved then it would not be able to use full 6Tf (the GPU would not be fed with data on time). On the other hand if it had more bandwidth than it needs, it wouldn't magically perform over 6Tf - the data would simply had to wait until GPU is done with previous portion. In latter case you'd actually be able to say that the GPU is the "bottleneck" :) Not saying this is the case with Scorpio - with the information we have it looks like a well-balanced system, targeting at rendering XB1/PS4 games at 4K with some additional IQ improvements (better AF, 4K textures, etc.). Which is great.
 

Zedox

Member
It will. It's basically an overclocked Pro with some more RAM.
Powerwise PS4 Pro to Scorpio is like PS4 to Xbox One, but reversed.

The Hype control by MS was just a bit lacking. People where expecting a next gen machine and that didn't happen.

People made the whole "next-gen" thing up. Scorpio never represented that and MS clearly stated that it was an Xbox One Upgrade. The amount of times I've had to say that it is just like the PS4Pro but more powerful got tiresome.
 
You're not following. There are many parts to a GPU what don't get taken into account into the TFLOPS number which get benefited by clock speed, like the fill rate and cache speed.

These are part of the ~40%, though. For obvious reasons a GPU that only has a 40% advantage in Flops, but not in, say, ROP performance or memory bandwith, wouldn't be 40% faster.
 

00ich

Member
What I'm most curious about in all of this is the hardware implementation of DX12, that has the potential to be quite amazing.

I tried to read up on it, but it doesn't seem to be a big deal. Basically it's for developers not pursuing top performance in the first place. They will get better results.
 

tzare

Member
The floating point operation count difference is 40% but that paints an invalid picture. With the clocks being considerably higher compared, the GPU is overall a lot more powerful. This will make it considerably stronger than any representative 6TFLOP GPU, hence DF saying the same.

I took the downplaying out cause I didn't agree when I read it back.

ok the.
I mean, the facts, numbers say 40% more power. If those other improvements help deliver over that 40%, and by how much, remains to be seen, especially if the claim comes from MS themselves , or DF in a somehow promoted event by MS too.

And again, those gains, if happen to be true, may be bottlenecked by the CPU that doesn't seem to have such level of improvements

Improvements also seem to exist for PS4PRo, if not mistaken, some customization too, so it also may punch above it's 4.2 TF. I do not know if any game has proven that though.... maybe horizon?

Yes, it is still 40% though. That 40% is made up by more CUs and higher clock. All the other stuff 'around' it - bandwidth, caches, ROPs, etc. - are there to ensure optimal utilisation the CUs at given clock, so if system was e.g. bandwidth-starved then it would not be able to use full 6Tf (the GPU would not be fed with data on time). On the other hand if it had more bandwidth than it needs, it wouldn't magically perform over 6Tf - the data would simply had to wait until GPU is done with previous portion. In latter case you'd actually be able to say that the GPU is the "bottleneck" :) Not saying this is the case with Scorpio - with the information we have it looks like a well-balanced system, targeting at rendering XB1/P. Which is great.

That is how i understand it too.
Btw, nobody seems to consider the CPU-GPU balance, given the % improvement of each one, over PS4PRo, for reference, If PS4Pro was cpu constrained, Scorpio seems to follow the same path.
 

antyk

Member
Good old Microsoft:

Processing draw calls - effectively telling the graphics hardware what to draw - is one of the most important tasks the CPU carries out. It can suck up a lot of processor resources, a pipeline that traditionally takes thousands - perhaps hundreds of thousands - of CPU instructions. With Scorpio's hardware offload, any draw call can be executed with just 11 instructions, and just nine for a state change.

They make it sound as if the improvements to the CPU reduce the workload from "hundreds of thousands" to just 11 or 9 :D
 

EvB

Member
It's basically an overclocked Pro with some more RAM.
Powerwise PS4 Pro to Scorpio is like PS4 to Xbox One, but reversed.


Nice downplay, have you even watchied/read any of the videos?.Not only is their more RAM, but the RAM itself is 50% faster and clocked higher.
Every aspect of the machine is bigger, faster and better performing than the PS4 Pro, but on top of this aspects of Xbox Live and the OS have been redesigned to deal with the new tech and features, it's a far more rounded package.
 

gaming_noob

Member
So according to Matt, Scorpio is as powerful as it can be for this year based on the resources and presumably planned price point, just as PS4Pro was for last year. I'm very comfortable about that.
 

tzare

Member
Nice downplay, have you even watchied/read any of the videos?.Not only is their more RAM, but the RAM itself is 50% faster and clocked higher.
Every aspect of the machine is bigger, faster and better performing than the PS4 Pro, but on top of this aspects of Xbox Live and the OS have been redesigned to deal with the new tech and features, it's a far more rounded package.

why stating facts is downplaying? It seems that the difference in raw power % is similar if we consider XBO vs PS4 and PS4Pro vs Scorpio.
 

leeh

Member
Good old Microsoft:



They make it sound as if the improvements to the CPU reduce the workload from "hundreds of thousands" to just 11 or 9 :D
It does...

The figure they gave was that it cuts down the rendering pipeline for the CPU down by 50%. That will help the CPU workload.
 

leeh

Member
ok the.
I mean, the facts, numbers say 40% more power. If those other improvements help deliver over that 40%, and by how much, remains to be seen, especially if the claim comes from MS themselves , or DF in a somehow promoted event by MS too.

And again, those gains, if happen to be true, may be bottlenecked by the CPU that doesn't seem to have such level of improvements

Improvements also seem to exist for PS4PRo, if not mistaken, some customization too, so it also may punch above it's 4.2 TF. I do not know if any game has proven that though.... maybe horizon?
The Pro is clocked around 100Mhz higher than typical Polaris. The Scorpio is around 400Mhz higher.
 
why stating facts is downplaying? It seems that the difference in raw power % is similar if we consider XBO vs PS4 and PS4Pro vs Scorpio.

Clearly the message has been well delivered for the hardcore. No zen, no vega? Don't worry, we got a brand new sauce. It's always the same shit really, impressive how nothing really changes.
 

antyk

Member
Nice downplay, have you even watchied/read any of the videos?.Not only is their more RAM, but the RAM itself is 50% faster and clocked higher.
Every aspect of the machine is bigger, faster and better performing than the PS4 Pro, but on top of this aspects of Xbox Live and the OS have been redesigned to deal with the new tech and features, it's a far more rounded package.

Likewise, nice "up play" :)

"Faster" equals "Clocked higher"
"Bigger, faster" is the same as "Better performing"
You think PS4 Pro runs on the exactly same OS as PS4? It also had to be redesigned.

But sure, the more words the better...
 

tzare

Member
The Pro is clocked around 100Mhz higher than typical Polaris. The Scorpio is around 400Mhz higher.

and also has some customization, tweaking, if not mistaken , done by sony, as they did with vanilla ps4. So that argument, it packs more punch,coding to the metal etc.... is also valid for ps4pro

Clearly the message has been well delivered for the hardcore. No zen, no vega? Don't worry, we got a brand new sauce. It's always the same shit really, impressive how nothing really changes.
exactly, each gen, each console maker, promise a lot and then consoles perform as expected, maybe a bit better here or there, but that's it, they just use available tech, nothing alien.
 
People can try and get into fanboy wars over whether it's only a slightly better PS4 Pro or whether the difference is the same as between Xbone and PS4 but the fact of the matter is this:

For people playing on Xbox, going from 900p to native 4k with 16x AF is a pretty fucking big deal.

That shit is going to look amazing.
 

antyk

Member
It does...

The figure they gave was that it cuts down the rendering pipeline for the CPU down by 50%. That will help the CPU workload.

Yes, that's plausible (the 50%), but if you read the quote it suggests:

"several hundred thousands" / 11 which is at least 900000% improvement :p
 

Syrus

Banned
People can try and get into fanboy wars over whether it's only a slightly better PS4 Pro or whether the difference is the same as between Xbone and PS4 but the fact of the matter is this:

For people playing on Xbox, going from 900p to native 4k with 16x AF is a pretty fucking big deal.

That shit is going to look amazing.


Agreed, as X1 S only owner im happy if its 499 or less
 
It will. It's basically an overclocked Pro with some more RAM.
Powerwise PS4 Pro to Scorpio is like PS4 to Xbox One, but reversed.

The Hype control by MS was just a bit lacking. People where expecting a next gen machine and that didn't happen.

I'm sure your intelligents is there, you need to use it by doing your research before posting on the internet for millions to read.

No disrespect, just trying to help you out my friend.
 
Nice downplay, have you even watchied/read any of the videos?.Not only is their more RAM, but the RAM itself is 50% faster and clocked higher.
Every aspect of the machine is bigger, faster and better performing than the PS4 Pro, but on top of this aspects of Xbox Live and the OS have been redesigned to deal with the new tech and features, it's a far more rounded package.
Plus add in the Elite Controller.

Best online service, best controller and now the fastest console. It really is a triple whammy. I've got the Pro for exclusives but Xbox going to be my main.
 

scoobs

Member
I'm sure your intelligents is there, you need to use it by doing your research before posting on the internet for millions to read.

No disrespect, just trying to help you out my friend.
You can't just say "no disrespect" and then call the guy dumb all the while spelling intelligence incorrectly.
 

tzare

Member
People can try and get into fanboy wars over whether it's only a slightly better PS4 Pro or whether the difference is the same as between Xbone and PS4 but the fact of the matter is this:

For people playing on Xbox, going from 900p to native 4k with 16x AF is a pretty fucking big deal.

That shit is going to look amazing.

the jump is really more impressive from an XBO owner perspective, that is fact. For two reasons, XBO is a bit weaker than PS4, and its midgen refresh also comes a year later.
Best online service, best controller
this doesn't belong to this thread and is subjective.
 

JaffeLion

Banned
It will. It's basically an overclocked Pro with some more RAM.
Powerwise PS4 Pro to Scorpio is like PS4 to Xbox One, but reversed.

The Hype control by MS was just a bit lacking. People where expecting a next gen machine and that didn't happen.

PXRIMDa.gif
 

Rodelero

Member
Nice downplay, have you even watchied/read any of the videos?.Not only is their more RAM, but the RAM itself is 50% faster and clocked higher.
Every aspect of the machine is bigger, faster and better performing than the PS4 Pro, but on top of this aspects of Xbox Live and the OS have been redesigned to deal with the new tech and features, it's a far more rounded package.

Yet, if people looking for a comparison, the suggestion that the gap between Scorpio and Pro will be similar to that between PS4 and Xbox One seems more accurate than any other comparison people are trying to make. If I, right now, had to quantify it for a layman, I'd probably use that exact comparison.

In this discussion I think a lot of people are forgetting the problematic memory solution used by the Xbox One with the slow RAM + ESRAM mix. I think it's leading people to underestimate the spec gap between the PS4 and Xbox One, but it's a key reason why the PS4/XboxOne vs Scorpio/Pro seems valid. There are two other significant factors that lead me to feel the comparison is likely to stand the test of time: First, that a lot of that extra power is going to go towards 4K, which isn't going to be that noticeable for that many people, given how few people have 4K screens and how many have 1080p screens. Second, the PS4 and Xbox One are going to act as anchors to how far forward the mid-gen refreshes can be pushed.

There is plenty to be positive about. Scorpio is clearly a really well thought out package, it's going to comfortably be the most powerful console on the market for at least two years once it releases. Some of this is expected given that we're a year further on and, especially if the console is significantly more expensive which Digital Foundry suspect. Regardless, this is a big forward step for Microsoft and, if they can back it up with games, I will finally feel excited for the brand again (right now I feel like a reluctant and unsatisfied owner).

For what it's worth, there are as many people in this thread exaggerating the differences as there are people understating them. A lot of the posts being thrown between these groups are... pretty childish and definitely embarrassing.
 

Bulby

Member
Why wouldn't this be 399€???

Has to be $399.

I dont see any possible way it can be more. If you have the S and Slim at $299 and under, the pro at $399. You are making your market very very small by pricing at $499. Would be a fucking disaster for MS IMO.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
People can try and get into fanboy wars over whether it's only a slightly better PS4 Pro or whether the difference is the same as between Xbone and PS4 but the fact of the matter is this:

For people playing on Xbox, going from 900p to native 4k with 16x AF is a pretty fucking big deal.

That shit is going to look amazing.

the jump is really more impressive from an XBO owner perspective, that is fact. For two reasons, XBO is a bit weaker than PS4, and its midgen refresh also comes a year later.

Both of these I agree with.

I mean coming out a year after the Pro it should outdo it. It will be like the smartphone world. A never ending cycle of outclassing the previous specs king.
 

antyk

Member
You can't just say "no disrespect" and then call the guy dumb. Weak.

Well, technically - he called the guy dumb first and then said "no disrespect"

Also, on a very superficial level Scorpio IS an overclocked PS4 Pro - both the CPU and GPU are from the same architectural family, both use GDDR5 memory, both MS and Sony done customisations to the SoC, etc. Actually, Scorpio and PS4 Pro technically are much closer to each other than XB1 was to PS4 :)
 

00ich

Member
.Not only is their more RAM, but the RAM itself is 50% faster and clocked higher.
And difference to my post is? You prefer "higher clocked" to "overclocked"?
The sum of its parts should be about 40% faster than the pro.
Meaning Mass Effect Andromeda doesn't run in 1800p checkerboaded (=2.88 Million Pixels) as it does on the pro, but 4k checkerboarded ( =4.15 Millions Pixels ) .
 

Widge

Member
Has to be $399.

I dont see any possible way it can be more. If you have the S and Slim at $299 and under, the pro at $399. You are making your market very very small by pricing at $499. Would be a fucking disaster for MS IMO.

I just had a thought on this. MS could effectively use profits on the XB1s to prop up a cheaper price on Scorpio. It's all wooden dollars but it makes sense if you go with the assumption of XB1s continuing to be the big earner for the company, with Scorpio pitched as the enthusiast (and thereby smaller) market. XB1s is going to keep on running and will start to look like a value proposition against Scorpio, especially when you look at it in a very plain "this machine plays all the same games and it is cheaper" fashion.

Of course there is the flipside where the PS4 bog standard also plays all the same games, is cheaper and has greater title investment from the platform holder.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Well, technically - he called the guy dumb first and then said "no disrespect"

Also, on a very superficial level Scorpio IS an overclocked PS4 Pro - both the CPU and GPU are from the same architectural family, both use GDDR5 memory, both MS and Sony done customisations to the SoC, etc. Actually, Scorpio and PS4 Pro technically are much closer to each other than XB1 was to PS4 :)

Yup.

Especially since MS went away from esram.

MS just underwhelmed with the orig XBO.

I expect the PS5 to have 12GB of ram at a minimum. Hopefully the same type.
 
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