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Atlus we need to talk about the Persona 5 localization...

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Are people certain of Garu and Zan being treated as separate spells in every instance? I could swear that SMT IV and IV:A associated Zan spells (and Zan bullets) with Force yet described them as wind-based, as with Zan spells like Deadly Wind. Seemed more like Wind and Force being synonymous there.

Yar, Zan and Garu usually fills the same spot gameplay-wise in absence of one another, with Zan traditionally being described as "Force (kinda like wind)" and Garu as "Wind (totally wind)". Atlus is weird like that but it's not localization inconsistency, in any case.

Yes, it's not as bad as the worst offenders, and is technically serviceable...but it's still a lower quality translation. The fact that so much of it is spoken English dialog is also off-putting to me, even reminding me of something like:

Ha, I remember being confused by the "whose secondhand" exchange in that game.
 

remz

Member
Second dungeon right now, and the spoken lines sound really great. Most issues people point out seem to be with non-spoken lines. Matt Mercer is doing an excellent job on Yusuke.

Yusuke is Matt Mercer? what on earth, I would have never picked that lmao. That's exceptional.
 

agc

Member
Funny to see that asked but I've never really thought about the Zan/Garu thing, but I guess I always took it as the wind spell but with different names based on the series: SMT + spinoffs use Zan while Persona uses Garu.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Don't know if someone already commented this yet, but anyway.

I noticed yesterday that the force attacks are called "Garu" in P5, meanwhile they were called "Zan" in SMT IV and SMTIV:A. If we go further in the past, we find "Garu" again, this time in Strange Journey. And even further, "Zan" again in Nocturne (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Is there an explanation to this? .

Garu and Zan have always been treated as a different category in SMT and Persona games. Garu is "Wind" while Zan is "Force."
 
Funny to see that asked but I've never really thought about the Zan/Garu thing, but I guess I always took it as the wind spell but with different names based on the series: SMT + spinoffs use Zan while Persona uses Garu.

The first Persona has both, though!
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
2zQauPg.jpg


Here is today's vernacular puzzler for you all.

Oh and for those that want context? There is none! This is the literally the first thing that comes out of her mouth after the usual interrogation scene transition. Right beforehand though(Hour 3 mild spoilers):
Anne awakens her persona and joins your team in the tutorial dungeon. You beat a midboss, exit to the real world. Scene transitions to the usual interrogation flash-forward where 'that' is spoken.

Honestly though, pretty much everything spoken by Sae is pretty rough sounding in this game.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
At least it's not like Persona 1's localization!
 

Hylian7

Member
Is it just me or are some of these name pronunciations wrong?

When I saw "Ann", I expected it to be pronounced like you would normally pronounce that name. Nope, it's "On" according to this game.

"Sakamoto", I've always pronounced "Sack-a-moto" everywhere I have seen it. Apparently it's "Suh-kah-moto" here.

The "You're not even worth causing me the trouble" line was one of many that made me raise an eyebrow that the voice actor actually read that line with a straight face.
 

depths20XX

Member
Is it just me or are some of these name pronunciations wrong?

When I saw "Ann", I expected it to be pronounced like you would normally pronounce that name. Nope, it's "On" according to this game.

I figured Ann was half Japanese like Karin from Street Fighter. Her name is pronounced Kah-reen. Thus Ann being "Ahn" makes sense.

I believe Sakamoto is the same in that it's being pronounced in the way a Japanese person would be pronouncing it but it sounds off because everything else is an English VA.

It sounds off to me too.
 
Is it just me or are some of these name pronunciations wrong?

When I saw "Ann", I expected it to be pronounced like you would normally pronounce that name. Nope, it's "On" according to this game.

"Sakamoto", I've always pronounced "Sack-a-moto" everywhere I have seen it. Apparently it's "Suh-kah-moto" here..

Your reading of Sakamoto is correct and that's how it was in the JP release, they intentionally fucked it up in the US release. Dunno how they're pronouncing An's name in the US release.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Is it just me or are some of these name pronunciations wrong?

When I saw "Ann", I expected it to be pronounced like you would normally pronounce that name. Nope, it's "On" according to this game.

"Sakamoto", I've always pronounced "Sack-a-moto" everywhere I have seen it. Apparently it's "Suh-kah-moto" here.

The "You're not even worth causing me the trouble" line was one of many that made me raise an eyebrow that the voice actor actually read that line with a straight face.

I can understand Ann given the vowel pronunciation for A in Japanese is 'ah', thus it sounds deliberately how it reads in the native language. 'Ah-n' or 'on'.

Sakamoto should be 'Sah-Kah-Moh-to' though, so that is a strange change. (Different regional dialect? Or just localization buffoonery?)

Fluent speakers could chime in with a better answer though.
 

duckroll

Member
The word is that Japanese executives from Atlus Japan specifically directed the VAs to mispronounce the names in a way they thought Americans would say the names.
 
Is it just me or are some of these name pronunciations wrong?

When I saw "Ann", I expected it to be pronounced like you would normally pronounce that name. Nope, it's "On" according to this game.

"Sakamoto", I've always pronounced "Sack-a-moto" everywhere I have seen it. Apparently it's "Suh-kah-moto" here.
Your reading of Sakamoto is correct and that's how it was in the JP release, they intentionally fucked it up in the US release.

No it's not! I mean, both are not accurate, but "Sack-a-moto" is particularly disastrous.
 

Majora

Member
2zQauPg.jpg


Here is today's vernacular puzzler for you all.

Oh and for those that want context? There is none! This is the literally the first thing that comes out of her mouth after the usual interrogation scene transition. Right beforehand though(Hour 3 mild spoilers):
Anne awakens her persona and joins your team in the tutorial dungeon. You beat a midboss, exit to the real world. Scene transitions to the usual interrogation flash-forward where 'that' is spoken.

Honestly though, pretty much everything spoken by Sae is pretty rough sounding in this game.

Yeah I said this earlier. Some of Sae's dialogue is terribly translated. There was one scene in particular, although I can't remember the details, where I was scratching my head at literally everything she said.

Why is it that some characters seem to be worse than others? I don't really know how a translation on this scale takes place. Is the game divided up and it's possible that a less capable translator got Sae's scenes? Or is that not how it works?

It's a shame because, just last night, I was actually really impressed by a lot of the translation. Overall, I do feel like the consistency has improved since the first few hours (15 hours in).
 

duckroll

Member
The issue is not translation. The issue is editing. If you have ever done translating from one language to another, you'll probably be aware that whatever the first pass is, is often that particularly elegant or even easily understood without context, especially if the languages use very different types of grammatical structures. It's normal and it's not a sign of an incompetent translator. That's what editing is for. You go through the translated text and smooth it out with the intention of giving everything a more consistent voice - be it narrative text or individual characters and their dialogue quirks. It's obvious that in the case of Persona 5, some parts of the game had more polish than others.

I mean that the example screen there - "I doubt something as dangerous as your group could've been pulled off with orthodox methods." I don't think there's difficulty in understanding what she's actually saying - she is hinting that there is something more sinister supporting their actions because what the group does is too dangerous for a bunch of highschoolers to come up with on their own. But the sentence is awkward, because it reads weird, and it sounds weird coming out of someone's mouth, especially with the great voice work that really tries to be convincing. There's nothing wrong with the base translation itself because with just some consideration you can rephrase the same line into something that sounds much better.
 
There's a very strange perception of how foreigners pronounce Japanese names. It stems from the fact that Japanese vowels are very short compared to English vowel sounds - and they're completely unstressed when spoken. Thus, when we English speakers say things they are super sensitive to the vowels - they just sound absurdly, comically long and emphasised to them. If you go anywhere in Japan on the train you'll hear these voices announcing stations in various languages, and when it get to English it's outrageously overpronounced, every time. Some people have embraced it, introducing themselves with "English pronunciation" when speaking to foreigners, so that "Narita" becomes "naREEEta," "Iguchi" becomes "iGOOOchi," and so on, nearly always placing incredible strength on and lengthening the second vowel. That's what happened here with Sakamoto.

EDIT: I'm not defending the wacky pronunciation, just explaining why the Japanese executives would insist on something that seems so crazy at first glance. This is how they think Americans pronounce stuff, because they perceive it as being exaggerated to that same degree even when it isn't actually that bad.
 
There's a very strange perception of how foreigners pronounce Japanese names. It stems from the fact that Japanese vowels are very short compared to English vowel sounds - and they're completely unstressed when spoken. Thus, when we English speakers say things they are super sensitive to the vowels - they just sound absurdly, comically long and emphasised to them. If you go anywhere in Japan on the train you'll hear these voices announcing stations in various languages, and when it get to English it's outrageously overpronounced, every time. Some people have embraced it, introducing themselves with "English pronunciation" when speaking to foreigners, so that "Narita" becomes "naREEEta," "Iguchi" becomes "iGOOOchi," and so on, nearly always placing incredible strength on and lengthening the second vowel. That's what happened here with Sakamoto.

Yar, it might not even be something that's done in purpose. I also find it harder to pronounce local names correctly when I am speaking in English and just naturally switch to "Englishization". I wonder what's up with that.
 

deim0s

Member
The word is that Japanese executives from Atlus Japan specifically directed the VAs to mispronounce the names in a way they thought Americans would say the names.


Still irks me out for them to insist that. Names are names, typically you'd correct someone who pronounces your name wrong or differently.
 

convo

Member
The word is that Japanese executives from Atlus Japan specifically directed the VAs to mispronounce the names in a way they thought Americans would say the names.

Is this a joke about Shenmue or actually a recent rumor for this game?

I wonder who stops in their tracks and returns the game for this, it can't stop me from playing an otherwise quality game. As if ZOE2's translation could stop me from playing the game,it's ZOE2. What about playing in japanese and just taking the subs from the english script? Anime fans take that in another direction since different subs for the japanese and english dub scripts are somtimes in demand. That seems entirely impossible to do for a game.
 
You know, a lot of the translations remind me of mistakes I've heard from native Japanese speakers speaking English.

Edit: shouldn't it be "pulled it off?"
 
The group isn't pulling itself off. The "it" is the
series of confessions
(events that occur)throughout the game.

Aa, in that case, there also shouldn't be a "been" in there. Either it's "I doubt [something] could've been pulled off" or "I doubt [something] could've pulled [something else] off".
 

Mandelbo

Member
Wouldn't that line make more sense if it was worded like this:

"I doubt your group could've pulled off something so dangerous using orthodox methods"

The structure of that sentence is so weird...
 
I started playing yesterday and besides the glaring ones that have been mentioned, there were definitely times when I found myself thinking "they probably could've phrased this better". Kinda like how I felt playing Pokemon B/W. I don't remember the other Personas being this bad in this regard, so I guess that's why it kinda stands out.

Still can't get over the line with the bus and its customers tho
 

.JayZii

Banned
Wouldn't that line make more sense if it was worded like this:

"I doubt your group could've pulled off something so dangerous using orthodox methods"

The structure of that sentence is so weird...
No. The group itself is the dangerous thing that wasn't formed (pulled off) by orthodox methods.
 

Majora

Member
It's a very inelegantly phrased and structured sentence. I think the use of 'pulled off' in this context is especially egregious and I would lose it entirely. This is my attempt at making it seem more natural:

'I doubt your group could have been formed conventionally, given the dangers involved.'

I'm not entirely sure that captures what the original dialogue is trying to say, but the localisation is so awkwardly structured that I'm still unsure I completely understand the exact intent, even though I can obviously get the gist of it.
 

inside-outski

Neo Member
Honestly, she could have just said, "There's nothing ordinary about your group or its methods" and it would have conveyed more or less the same thing.
 
The word is that Japanese executives from Atlus Japan specifically directed the VAs to mispronounce the names in a way they thought Americans would say the names.
Why would they purposely make their VO such trash? The name pronunciations are so jarring and terrible, I get distracted every time I hear them. They don't even sound like "proper" mispronunciations, the stresses are all so artificial and cumbersome.

Specific direction to make names as garbage as possible clears up a lot though, as I had a hard time understanding how someone could mispronounce every name so badly without the voice director stepping in for a retake.
 
I started playing yesterday and besides the glaring ones that have been mentioned, there were definitely times when I found myself thinking "they probably could've phrased this better". Kinda like how I felt playing Pokemon B/W. I don't remember the other Personas being this bad in this regard, so I guess that's why it kinda stands out.

Still can't get over the line with the bus and its customers tho

Some Revelations: Persona translation gems:

"The cake that's on the paper became the real thing to eat!"

"Mark danced sexy!"
 

Venfayth

Member
I'm almost into August now and main storyline dialogue from Morgana and other non-velvet room & non-interrogation characters continues to include phrases such as "I guess it can't be helped" and "I'll try to live up to your expectations".

I'm starting to get numb to it, but it's a little shocking that they released Persona 5 this way. Did they really just not care, or have enough time to properly edit it?
 

Aokage

Pretty nice guy (apart from the blue shadows thing...)
Still waiting for my copy to ship from Amazon. I'm sure the game is super awesome. Everyone who has played it says it is top tier stuff. Then bam. It's out today and... things have appeared on Twitter which shows what might well be Atlus USA's shoddiest localization effort in forever. After the great job they did on Yakuza recently? On their flagship title?

Some examples:


There are tons of lines like these being tweeted by people playing it now. There's a consistent trend - they're all understandable English which retains Japanese sentence structure and often literal adjective usage, but read extremely awkwardly in English. No one would speak like this and many of these lines are voiced. What gives? That's the difference between a raw translation and having a good editor or editing team on a localization. This is something Atlus has been really good at over the years.

What... happened?

Oh... ouch. What I'm faced with every day, but usually because a proper localization schedule is nonexistent and a client wants things to match up precisely with the Japanese VA. But for a game with a high-quality English dub, not to mention one that released more than half a year after the JP version? I... I just... mmmmgh.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
How unfortunate that Persona 5 of all games got a shit localization...

As someone who has worked as a translator and in other localization in capacities, I can totally envision the scenarios some of this stuff may have happened, but I thought Atlus and the Persona games in particular were known for getting good localizations.

From the 10ish hours I've played of the Japanese version of Persona 5, it has quite a good and engaging script, so it's unfortunate as hell if the English doesn't convey the same feeling.
 

Chaos17

Member
There's a very strange perception of how foreigners pronounce Japanese names. It stems from the fact that Japanese vowels are very short compared to English vowel sounds - and they're completely unstressed when spoken. Thus, when we English speakers say things they are super sensitive to the vowels - they just sound absurdly, comically long and emphasised to them. If you go anywhere in Japan on the train you'll hear these voices announcing stations in various languages, and when it get to English it's outrageously overpronounced, every time. Some people have embraced it, introducing themselves with "English pronunciation" when speaking to foreigners, so that "Narita" becomes "naREEEta," "Iguchi" becomes "iGOOOchi," and so on, nearly always placing incredible strength on and lengthening the second vowel. That's what happened here with Sakamoto.

EDIT: I'm not defending the wacky pronunciation, just explaining why the Japanese executives would insist on something that seems so crazy at first glance. This is how they think Americans pronounce stuff, because they perceive it as being exaggerated to that same degree even when it isn't actually that bad.
That's why you're supposed to study the language to avoid these mistakes.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
To be honest, I just rewatched the scene and remembered that my initial impression without the Japanese was that you're supposed to be scared of the spooky, highly influential men in suits who have the power to make your boss call you. The English line of "There's a call from your director..." enforced the spooky omnipotence of the guy for me. He has so much sway that he knew the second that he could make your boss call you.

Which ultimately isn't very different. The inference is still "I talked to your boss and now he's going to call you.". The line certainly isn't problematic or out of the realm of possibility--it's something someone would actually say. If anything, the line they went with enhances the mystique more than "There was a call from your boss just now..." which might even be more confusing in English considering she then picks up the phone for a call that apparently happened in the past.

You're going way too far to justify that bad translation...

Your impression is simply not what any reasonable person would get playing the original Japanese version.
 

Curufinwe

Member
The word is that Japanese executives from Atlus Japan specifically directed the VAs to mispronounce the names in a way they thought Americans would say the names.

I wonder if they tried to do the same thing with P4 for names like Satonaka, but there was somebody in Atlus USA at the time who kept them at bay.
 
The dialogue is just... fine most of the time, nothing incredible, then yeah, there's usually a random rough patch that sticks out like a sore thumb.

It definitely doesn't ruin the game for me, but it's certainly odd when lower budget SMT games on 3DS get a better localization.
 
I'm working my way through the first few hours and yeah, it's... noticeable. While playing I can generally go with the flow and it's definitely not all bad, the VAs are doing a great job with what they're given and an near-equal number of lines have been really good, but there have been a few standouts that aren't even just awkward phrasing, they're outright errors.
 
The word is that Japanese executives from Atlus Japan specifically directed the VAs to mispronounce the names in a way they thought Americans would say the names.

So let me get this straight... they butcher Japanese names intentionally to try to make them sounds American (which is completely ridiculous) but make them pronounce Ann, a Western name, in Japanese style?

What the ever-loving fuck.

Atlus please. Hire a proper localization team next time. Let them do their jobs.

I'm like 20+ hours in and just kind of grinning and bearing the dialogue at this point. I think most of it's pretty terrible. It's Saturday morning cartoon level of writing botched by bad localization. I like the main characters, when they're just goofing off, but whenever they're talking about changing people's hearts and cognitions I just kind of zone out at this point.

also re: the orthodox methods line, another sticking point for me is that NO ONE says "orthodox" in that context. People do say "unorthodox" to mean "unusual or outlandish" but just orthodox like that? Nah, no one would say that. Certainly, if you're trying to write dialogue that sounds like something remotely like a thing a human would say, you'd rephrase that whole sentence, even though it might be grammatically correct. I've also encountered plenty of ungrammatical sentences in my time with the game though. But a lot of the time they're not ungrammatical, they're just bad.
 

inside-outski

Neo Member
I'm almost into August now and main storyline dialogue from Morgana and other non-velvet room & non-interrogation characters continues to include phrases such as "I guess it can't be helped" and "I'll try to live up to your expectations".

I'm not doubting that the localization remains inconsistent throughout the game, but both of those are relatively common turns of phrase. What am I missing?

Edit: Okay, so I looked it up, and "can't be helped" is evidently a staple of shoddy localization. The other thing still seems fine to me.
 

ryechu

Member
The word is that Japanese executives from Atlus Japan specifically directed the VAs to mispronounce the names in a way they thought Americans would say the names.

I think they just decided to convert Japanese pitch accents into English vowel stresses. I've gotten over it.
 

inside-outski

Neo Member
So it's going to be patched or something like that?

I sort of doubt it'll be patched. The game has already generated quite a bit of both critical acclaim and good word-of-mouth. Comparatively, there are only a handful of people kicking up a fuss about P5's localization issues. It really seems like the majority of folks playing just do not care all that much, and I feel like most devs/publishers wouldn't allocate resources to an undertaking as large as re-localizing huge swaths of their game unless there was an overwhelming backlash. Your best bet might be to just wait for Atlus to try and sell you a re-release.
 
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