http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=236215923&postcount=127
Straight from the horse's mouth, but ok I invented it. Stop being wrong.
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Kaldaien's Nier Mod has an anti-piracy check - People got mad
- Thread starter Chairmanchuck
- Start date
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=236215923&postcount=127
Straight from the horse's mouth, but ok I invented it. Stop being wrong.
He invented then.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
His argument is "yaaar". People who don't pirate don't make arguments like that
Hell people who pirate for "demo" purposes dont even make arguments like that
He is completely free to do so for his own peace of mind, whether backed by case law or not.
What people aren't free to do is steal games. We do have case law about that.
Yup, I'm out. No point in arguing with schmucks who like to steal. "and his ignore list grew three sizes that day."
People who don't buy the fucking game can, you know, just use the fucking mod? Like holy shit, what a terrible destiny, pirating a whole big game completely for free but not be able to use a mod boo fucking hoo. Shit man, those idiots have the goddamn fucking internet at their disposal, they Google some basic coding lessons and they will be able to recompile the kid's code without the restriction pretty easily.
I have already said that, I'm just saying the reaction was completely previsible.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Afaik its already available for pirated copies...
If only people didn't make posts like this one here. Hmm
Blam
Member
No worries didn't think you were talking about me, but I responded like that just in case you had been. Well it's malicious under the fact that he has blacklisted people before, as much as it might just be 2 trolls. He did it either way. If 'you' let him get away with this then who knows what else he'll add to the compiled version of the .dll (Who knows if those are even the same as the code on git.) It's not up to him to decide who isn't able to use the mod and play the game. If it was really a huge problem then Nier would have had much more rigorous anti-crack measures, but it doesn't.
But I'm not blaming the Nier devs either. I'm just saying it's not his call to do something like this. He sorta did go out of his way because it's not needed to have the mod working and it wasn't something that was providing an obstacle to updating the mod. It's pretty much targeted at all pirates. Yeah it's an inconvenience sure, and sure it's an easy fix. But like I just mentioned he wasn't one of the developers who made the game, so it's not his call to make. For example lets say Platinum Games publicly said that they don't care if you pirated or not. Would his decision be right? Sure this example might never happen it's just like I mentioned it's not his call to make who should and shouldn't be able to play a game with mods.
Sure it's only tied to his mod, and you can play fine without it, but what if more and more people start doing something similar to this? If I couldn't mod Skyrim I'd probably have never bought it multiple times. If i was locked out of modding on a pirated copy of Skyrim I would have probably never even installed the game to be quite honest with you. But thankfully I was able to mod it, and they got quite enough money out of me from buying the legendary edition 4 times (gifted to friends), and the remaster on consoles.
RandomExpletive
Member
Wait Kal's source code, when compiled, will still work for people on his banlist?
... Then what the heck is Blam & co's argument here?
... Then what the heck is Blam & co's argument here?
Jesus Christ stop with the 4chan FuD dumbasses spreading already.
Herr Schwarz
Banned
Yeah that's understandable but the reality of the matter is. As soon as something hits the public Internet. It's going to be got at. Whether it's Nier or Game of Thrones or whatever else, it's going to be got at by communities that have been around longer than I've been gaming.
We may not like it, but that's the reality. Denuovo stalls the inevitable that's about it.
This has been the case for at least 3 decades now. Denuvo and secuROM will come and go piracy will remain.
And on some levels that's a really good thing.
But once you accept that piracy is an unstoppable reality. Then what you have left is a vigilante modder, stanning for a set of unproven beliefs that wants to take on a certain subset of the internet that are already cranky about denuvo.
So yeah there'll be some drama.
It literally is up to him who isn't able to use the mod. It's his mod. Doesn't matter what platinum thinks. He made the mod. If you wanna pirate the game, you can't use the mod. Sorry. If you have any other issues regarding his code, you can't use the mod. Sorry. End of story. But it's open source, and the same 4chan people trying to doxx him have already released a version of the mod without his stuff.
"if 4chan doxxes him it's his fault"
No, really:
Death Penalty
Member
To the bolded though, it absolutely is up to him to decide who can use his mod, which is a fundamental difference of opinion we seem to have. I also don't think it would be a problem if future modders offering free services chose to do this.
I appreciate your continued willingness to respond in an even and thoughtful manner. I simply can't agree with your point, and I think it's overly supportive of people I can only classify as thieves and a harmful influence, but it was nice to be able to actually converse about it without things devolving or taking a turn for the worse. I'll probably bow out on the discussion here since I think we've just got some fundamental differences and I don't have a lot more to add.
Edit: Oh. I see there was a ban. Kind of a shame.
RandomExpletive
Member
This thread is too much. Great deal of respect for anyone trying to debate these guys, hoo boy
Jesus fucking christ just go away with your dumb conspiracy theories already. Nobody is entitled to a motherfucking free mod. You are not entitled to have access to anything that someone writes for free. It's his software and he can block whoever he motherfucking wants from it, it's his right and always will be.
"HURR DURRRRRRR WHAT IF OTHER MODDERS START DOING THIS HURRR DURRRRRRR" are you that dense or you honestly think this will magically start a wave of people restricting their mods? Are you not capable of rational thought?
Interficium
Banned
Nah. Fuck piracy. I'm glad you can't use the mod.
Ah yes, such popular yet completely unproven beliefs such as "stealing is bad." I've heard of those.
Its about ethics in mod creation.
Thats the only thing i can think of, if i made a mod to something but requires a legitimate check on ownership its in my own right to do that. Maybe im wanting to support the developers, maybe i have a stance on pro-drm, who cares. it is every right for someone to create whatever they want and nobody if forcing anyone to play with it.
In niers case there are other mods that do the same thing, its just he made an easy ui and combinations of others work in a streamlined package.
Death Penalty
Member
Wait. "Unproven beliefs" that stealing is wrong? Am I reading that right?
"Pirates need to be able to get the best experience too, because EQUALITY" is the dumbest argument for anything I've heard in a looong time.
Like holy shit. And the thing in question is freaking open source and anyone can modify and change it however they want.
...This is literally an outcry and harassment by butthurt, lazy pirates, because they're too lazy to put a little work into getting their stolen game working like a paying customer.
I think I've had enough internet for this month.
Like holy shit. And the thing in question is freaking open source and anyone can modify and change it however they want.
...This is literally an outcry and harassment by butthurt, lazy pirates, because they're too lazy to put a little work into getting their stolen game working like a paying customer.
I think I've had enough internet for this month.
Herr Schwarz
Banned
No the unproven belief being piracy hurts sales, and destroys companies profits. It's always and forever will be an assumption.
Yet it's been happening for 30 years and if anything gaming on PC has never ever been stronger.
Death Penalty
Member
Regardless of whether or not it hurts sales, I think taking something you have not paid for is pretty ethically clear, especially when we're talking a luxury item like a game. I also think the idea that 100% of said pirates would never have spent even a penny on the game otherwise is likely to be pirate rhetoric and not actually indicative of truth, and if piracy hurts sales even slightly there's no room for grey area.
Like seriously, stealing is wrong. Piracy is the theft of luxury entertainment products. How is it defensible?
Death Penalty
Member
Semantics, and not in any way an invalidation of the point made.
Weltall Zero
Member
I would not take the same stance if people payed a cent for any hypothetical product, because then he's contractually obligated to provide a service and unable to rescind it unilaterally without good reason. Money didn't change hands, he owes them absolutely nothing. What about this concept is hard to grasp?
I don't even know why people are talking about piracy. He could ban people for having names starting with letters he dislikes and he'd be 100% within his right to do so.
That could be a valid argument if the main issue was piracy and sales. Its not important to a discussion where a mod breaks if you pirate the game.
Regardless of your stance on piracy concerns, the modder can require a licence check if he so chooses. It has nothing to do with sales.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Both are illegal in most western countries...
There's a pretty big difference between taking something from someone and copying something without permission.
That's why you said "Stealing is wrong" instead of "Distributing unauthorized duplicates is wrong." One sounds worse because it is worse.
As it should be.
They're still not the same thing though.
The difference here is that the mod is free, optional and open-source.
I can dislike Denuvo in a prdocut I paid for while at the same time not caring about what a modder does with his freetime-work (that anyone with the knowledge can even modify to his liking).
Ya, if you dislike having denuvo in a product you paid for the logical next step is to fix a bug in it by adding a mod to it that also has online DRM.
Sir Blaming
Member
Erm, more power to the modder?
I don't see the purpose of making your mod have drm, but as long as he is not charging for anything, it's all fair game.
I don't see the purpose of making your mod have drm, but as long as he is not charging for anything, it's all fair game.
Abilidebob
Member
Completely and utterly different situations. I still don't like that Nier has Denuvo. For me, the less DRM for a game I bought the better. But FAR? As already said again and again and again and again and again and again and again in this thread the project is free -AND- open source.
I sincerely can't see a lick of a problem with his decision. -IF- the mod was closed source and you couldn't see what he was doing, I could see some problems with it. But it isn't.
Seriously, a mod should change the title to " Kaldaien's Nier FREE OPEN SOURCE Mod has an anti-piracy check".
The whole thing is open source so anyone that wants to use it on pirate copies can just code the DRM out.
There is no online DRM on the mod whatsoever.
Difference (at least to me) is the mod is open source and can easily be remedied. My fear with extreme DRM is a lock out or complication with no solution. It's not ideal but let them have their peace of mind once I know certain bays have my back if everything goes screwy. Also, it's free.
Honestly, nothing he did here is outside his rights as a mod maker. And since it open source, anyone can simply create a fork and keep it up to date with any future versions. Not really hard to do.
This reminds that Kaldaien fixed quite a few games that I enjoyed with his mod tools so far.
Does he have a public account where he accepts donation?
This reminds that Kaldaien fixed quite a few games that I enjoyed with his mod tools so far.
Does he have a public account where he accepts donation?
Abilidebob
Member
This whole situation makes me want him to setup a Patreon or something. Although stupid people could use this as an argument
"WAAAAAAAAAAAH I -GAVE MONEY- TO HIM SO HE NEEDS TO REMOVE THE PIRATECHECK!"
When did gamers become communists?
...
The outrage here seems to attracting a lot of people who want to make a statement on DRM as a hole, despite the many options they have to circumvent what he did.
Alexander DeLarge
Member
Because there's a difference banning someone from a server and writing code specifically to target someone you don't like (while distributing that code on the discussion board that the mods/Square Enix themselves stickied at the top). Again, you think Valve and Square Enix would approve?
The implications of people targeting each other using SteamIDs to target people they don't like and take their toys away from each other is pretty dangerous. Especially within modding communities for stuff like Bethesda games and Arma.
We don't need more shitty behavior from modders. Trust me.
We don't need more shitposts from people like you on this topic. Trust me.
Just stop. seriously.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
The only thing they lose access to is the mod. Once again, boo fucking hoo territory.
And if you annoyed the fuck out of the guy enough to be on his blacklist then you were probably not going to be using the mod in the first place.
So many ungrateful pricks holy shit.
Death Penalty
Member
Just because it's not a physical good doesn't mean you can't steal it, even if it isn't under the law called stealing. I don't believe there's as much of a distinction between stealing and piracy as you're trying to imply. Whether it's a manufactured good or a digital good, there was a great deal of time and cost sunk into the production of said product. The only real difference I see is manufacturing cost. And again, quibbling about the semantics of it all fails to address the actual point that was in the post you quoted.
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