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Banned
That isn't gonna happen because the former is opposed to the latter's entire existence.
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Can we discuss the MRA documentary "The Red Pill"?
- Thread starter Moff
- Start date
That isn't gonna happen because the former is opposed to the latter's entire existence.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
How the hell is that supposed to work?
And the Israeli's and Palestinian's should get along because we're all human and that means we should just love and get along with another. Its really easy to make claims like that but its totally empty without taking into the context that the MRA are more often than not, incredibly scummy towards women, especially out spoken ones. If you're so concerned about your daughter and want to become an MRA, perhaps you should look into Pick Up Artists who often find a home in the MRA "movement". I'm sure your daughter will love getting negged by guys who think rape should be legal.
Roberto Larcos
Member
By working with the sane ones and no-platforming the extremists. Not by dismissing all out of hand. There are clearly some sane people arguing for some very legitimate causes - address those people, address those causes.
I don't think it can be denied in any context that ignoring one side entirely never supports efforts to de-escalate - it only furthers extremism.
The MRA movement is poisoned beyond belief at this point. If you call yourself an MRA then you're either too stupid to realize what the rest of the group who shares your name with stands for or you're just being disingenuous about it. Its like saying we should work with the Gamer Gaters who are actually about ethics in journalism.
Who are the sane leadership within the movement?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
LOL @ quoting A Voice for Men
The founder, Paul Elam, wrote this:
This guy is a real piece of work and A Voice for Men is a purely misogynistic, anti-feminist movement.
The founder, Paul Elam, wrote this:
This guy is a real piece of work and A Voice for Men is a purely misogynistic, anti-feminist movement.
lachesis
Member
I do not appreciate you keep bring up my daughter, especially in the context of "rape". Shame on you.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, this is really what "working together" should look like
read: if you're truly interested in the much smaller realm of men's rights causes (rape/abuse awareness, custody rights etc) you'd do far better to leave MRA mess in the garbage where it belongs & start elsewhere
lachesis
Member
That's true. He's Anti-feminist.
And what people fore go, is that some of his stuff (don't read him that much - as it yucks me) - is actual mirroring of feminism articles.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
What fucking issues. MRA literally has no reason to exist. None.
I mentioned this in the Anita S. thread but it's like Christians claiming they're persecuted and oppressed in the U.S. because some fucking 10 Commandments monument is taken down from a state government building.
Women are still incredibly far from being equal to men in like every society on this planet. Their efforts to fight for equality are sometimes met with violence. Meanwhile, these MRA losers claim it's actually men that are being oppressed and, as one MRA dickhead said in this documentary, "suffering." Fucking nonsense.
Yeah, women might get favorable treatment in SOME domestic abuse cases. That's an issue for police to figure out, not women. The notion that women should give a fuck about that relatively-small problem while they're fighting to get equal treatment at every level of society is absurd. If you don't understand why, you're either a liar or an idiot.
Any favorable treatment is cancelled by how often men get off with a slap on the wrist for domestic abuse and even rape.
And yes I say this with hatred for EVERY single person who self-identifies as belonging to the MRA community because I hate people who are so fucking arrogant and stupid that they equate women gaining equality as them losing rights. I also hate people who insult my intelligence and that's what these morons do. Men are NOT oppressed, NOT suffering, NOT having rights taken away at the expense of women's rights. That isn't happening here on Earth. Period.
Then don't give MRA's the time of day. If you think I'm bringing those things up in relation to your daughter for a hoot you're sorely mistaken and taking offense at the wrong person. I'm just cluing you in on what to expect for yourself and your daughter if you think flocking to the MRA will help you deal with your issues. If you're just going to get offended at me then just realize I'm regurgitating the type of stuff you're going to get offended by from the people you will be associating with. This is the company you will keep.
benicillin
Banned
Worse, it's actually the old "it's about ethics in game journalism" and the latter was all about getting more people into the former.
Lachesis, sorry you're going through a messy divorce, but keep in mind that your issue is with your ex-wife and not with women in general or feminists.
Also, I would suggest you to not go into this thinking that the system is stacked against you. Usually, judges are doing the best they can in a messy situation. Try to have the best relation you can with your kid and your ex-wife (if it's possible) and show that you're an awesome father. If you do that, the judge will have no choice but to give joint custody. So stop reading AVFM and please don't bring up this stuff in court.
Also, I would suggest you to not go into this thinking that the system is stacked against you. Usually, judges are doing the best they can in a messy situation. Try to have the best relation you can with your kid and your ex-wife (if it's possible) and show that you're an awesome father. If you do that, the judge will have no choice but to give joint custody. So stop reading AVFM and please don't bring up this stuff in court.
Roberto Larcos
Member
People may not call themselves 'MRAs', but that doesn't stop them being identified as such.
Centring on the 'who' aspect - mental health practitioners, family law experts, criminal law experts. There will be people in those fields (I know a couple in the latter two) that are concerned by the status quo with regards to male suicide rates, difficulties for men in obtaining custody and the legal definition of rape (in the United Kingdom).
I genuinely cannot see how addressing these legitimate concerns would be of any harm to anyone. It would also serve to de-legitimise the militant 'MRAs' - "if you truly cared about these issues, you'd join the dialogue" - by shutting dialogue off to all comers, people are forced into these dark corners, and that's where they're exploited and radicalised. Think of it like the Northern Irish peace process - you may not want to address the concerns of one side, but you have to.
I care about those issues and I also don't have the time in my day or life to deal with the asshole MRA"s who dominate the discussion when it comes to "men's rights". As someone who has friends who do actual work in the areas MRA's claim to be all about, they are disgusted by the MRA movement and consider it a horrid abortion that just won't die. Most of them would call themselves feminists as well because feminism is about equality when MRA's are about ugliness and anger. You still seem to think there is something worthwhile there and most people who are actually dealing with issues facing men have already moved on to trying to get things done instead of shitting up the internet about feminism and the like.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Bullshit.
lachesis
Member
I wish it was true (calling it bullsh*t), unfortunately but it's not.
http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have
This was one of the article that was mentioned on the red pill documentary. I had to dig up myself to fact checking, and yes, intentional or not intentional - making a lighthearted approach on women to men's violence is definitely there.
Alexander DeLarge
Member
I'll just quote myself from the previous page. Frankly, people like you are the people that need to see this documentary the most.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
Frozenprince
Banned
The entire label of "men's rights" was just meant to demean and make a big ole laugh of feminist causes.
Mossybrew
Gold Member
This is good advice.
BotoxAgent
Member
Yup. I agree.
Which feminism articles?
Frozenprince
Banned
Frozenprince
Banned
I mean there is something inherently misogynistic about demanding women who are focused on trying to ensure they have equal rights and chances at success to "CARE JUST AS MUCH ABOUT HOW MEN SUFFER"
Yup.
All of the stuff one can plausibly cite as "good" about MRAs is stuff I had already heard about from feminist sources. There are oodles of resources and groups for issues that mostly affect men. There are legit issues to raise awareness about. But that's not what MRAs are doing.
People in this thread acting like MRA is a term to be taken at face value are naive. It is a thoroughly poisoned term, and the people who most proudly proclaim the term is a crowd full of admitted rapists, dv apologists, etc etc.
One can obviously find fringe feminist-claiming groups that have extreme views, I personally think TERFs are by and large full of shit harassers for example, but those are a fringe and not remotely the mainstream.
That's the difference: the mainstream MRA crowd are horrific people. Don't play equivalence games of cherry picked fringe examples on one side vs the mainstream of the other.
Sony
Nintendo
Just to demonstrate the sheer irony of your tirade, I took the liberty to change some of the words in your post.
Please look into other sources before buying into this propaganda film.
All you've done is show that you don't know what you are talking about. Comparing feminism as a whole with a niche extremist group like MRA's makes you look naive at best and at worst, malicious.
Yeah that's called irony!
I'm late to this thread but just wanted to say thanks for this post. Great stuff.
lachesis
Member
Point taken. Thank you for your concern
I am going with mediation, 50/50 physical and legal custody - which I strongly believe that should be a norm to begin with. It's not so messy legally (besides impossible to prove in court her cheating) Just very expensive, lengthy process.
I felt very sad for many divorced dad in support groups on family court system, and such issues should be addressed and openly discussed. And If feminists don't want to address that, or stops that as the movie claims - I will side with ones that would advocate the issue, such as Fathers Right movement led by Alec Baldwin or what not.
But one thing for sure, is that the marriage system is indeed stacked against men in terms of divorce and child custody (if you shall go to court that is). So if you are going to marry - then get a prenup. Marriage for love, of course - but prenup doesn't mean that you don't love her. It's just sad that people just change.
This would probably happen if child rearing was split 50/50 on average.
Alexander DeLarge
Member
Has a point though. What makes feminism different from any other social movement that has its share of baggage associated with it? It's a total double standard and this is what I hate about gender politics. If you take issue with feminism for whatever reason, you're against woman's equality as defined by the dictionary (because we all know cultural and social movements are defined by a dictionary /s). If you're an egalitarian, you're a centrist coward that is too afraid of being labeled a feminist/MRA. If you're associated with the men's rights movement, you are guilty of being a misogynist asshole by association.
lachesis
Member
I did more, actually - but it's arguable.
I do cook her breakfast, pack her lunch, take her school, look after her school work after.
Wife takes care of school arrangements, aftercare arrangements, medical arrangements, setting up playdates etc - basically pencil pushing stuff.
My (psycho) sister-in-law who lives in my house, picks my daughter up form aftercare and sometimes feed her supper.
Sure if you ignore everything about MRA's and feminists and go "both sides are the same" its really easy to make these comments.
If you call yourself a feminist, you can further narrow it down to where you are within a wide school of thought. You can distance yourself further from other kinds of feminists within that, assuming the person listening isn't just going to ignore you in favour of the penis-snatching boogieman version. If you call yourself an MRA, you're throwing yourself with a group which has existed primarily for the purpose of abuse.
Vicetrailia
Member
MRA gets their kicks off oppression. You can't get along with that.
I didn't mean to suggest you weren't hitting that mark, but that situation isn't average. Going by Pew Research, mothers in two parent households on average spend twice as much time as fathers on childcare. If primary physical custody is (usually) awarded to the primary caregiver, it will on average be awarded to the mother. If this is something men want to change in mass I think it will require taking on more childcare duties as a group. 50/50 physical custody would more likely be a norm I think if 50/50 childcare was a norm.
Roberto Larcos
Member
If a group feels like it isn't being listened to at all, is it not a fairly natural consequence for that group to become more abusive and hateful?
Listening to some points isn't conceding to the most militant 'MRAs' - it's about ensuring that people who do feel aggrieved feel like their legitimate points are being listened to, and ensuring that they don't end in those hateful places by default. That's what's happening right now, and it's dangerous. We can either ignore it, call them a basket of deplorables and scratch our heads as the problem gets worse - or we can do something about it. That means listening when those legitimate points are raised and not dismissing them out of hand, as has been done by many in this thread.
We don't listen? We push people away. It's a cycle that we need to break.
The problem with MRA's is they started as abusive and hateful but of course the way to fix things is for people to listen to angry bitter sexists. They know what is going to fix things and turn it all around.
Again, their goal is to abuse for their own gain. The "it's your fault I'm hitting you" defense is a common abuse tactic. The people who deny any data about inequality are also going to claim that they're being ignored, that doesn't mean that they're actually the underdog they want to be seen as. The power dynamics are also important to consider; it's generally not the person in the weaker position who is engaging in the abuse.