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[NYCmetsfan]

If she was too intoxicated to remember giving consent, she was not able to give consent in the first place.

This isn't true. Intoxication isn't the legal standard if its voluntary (If its involuntary intoxication its rape). You have to be "incapacitated" and not "understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity." This is determined by juries.

These would be the statues for what your describing in California.

(3) Where a person is prevented from resisting [AKA physically weakened or put in a stupor by drunkness] by any intoxicating or anesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the accused.
(4) Where a person is at the time unconscious of the nature of the act, and this is known to the accused. As used in this paragraph, ”unconscious of the nature of the act" means incapable of resisting because the victim meets any one of the following conditions:

And this is the "yes means yes" statue for Universities

(4) A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances:
(A) The complainant was asleep or unconscious.
(B) The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity.

Blackouts are a lack of memory not incapacitation in every case. In a he said she said case without video evidence blackouts can lead to convictions because its hard to prove the behavior and the ability to give consent and a blackout lends credence to the idea of incapaciatation to a jury. Who can really say how drunk she was? And if she understood what she was doing?

Thus its common sense that one should make sure that they're aware of if the person is able to give consent. And not just assume. Just ask.

With video like this, even if she doesn't remember it, she in that moment clearly seems to be not incapacitated and understands the "nature fact, and extent of sexual activity" if she's sticking her finger in a whole made with her other hand. She's initiating the hookup.

I mean one can never know what went on in that room and if she passed out or said no (both which would make it rape), but there's a very strong circumstantial case she was consenting.

To often these "Yes mean Yes" laws (which are good) are twisted by opponents of rape victims into scaring people into believing common consensual drunk hookups could now be illegal, they do no such thing.

*May not apply to people of color.

The person exonerated was a POC FYI

 

[dinoric]

Where is this line drawn also?

So it can happen just before, during and after?

Can a woman after sex say it was rape if she felt like shit after?

Rape is so hard to prove.

It's totally wrong to say you were raped just because you wake up the next morning and regret it.

 

[Ozigizo]

I think I'm just gonna cut off my penis at this point. I just hate this double standard of women not being accountable if they're drunk. Woman has sex while intoxicated, she was raped. Man has sex while intoxicated, he's the rapist. It's like men are supposed to be accountable while drunk, but women aren't.

False rape claims are incredibly low, so this is some stupid MRA bullshit.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Sure it can even without any issues of intoxication. Someone could be grabby at a restaurant, in a car, even at the entrance to a dorm room, and still have second thoughts about actually doing the deed at the last minute.

Yes. Or if one really wanted to do something the other didn't. Like you want to get it on, but find the other person has some kind of BDSM fetish/setup in their home that creeps you out, or finds that person is into rough sex, strangulation, drugs, or some other thing that makes you want to bail.

Not that that's the case here, but it's not something anyone should be dismisive of. Of course the big issue here is innocent until proven guilty, reasonable doubt, etc. She could very well have been raped, but it would be impossible to prove. Often in cases like these, not one of us can say with any reasonable conviction what happened.

And when both parties are really drunk, neither can give consent, then what do you do? Being drunk doesn't absolve someone of a crime, but unless there's physical evidence of force being used against one of them, what can you do as a judge or jury member?

 

[HarryKS]

Catcalling would be under sexual harassment stats not sexual assault.

That's why was asking for precision with regards to the statement.

 

[Sunster]

This is absolutely true, but so far the evidence puts her claims in doubt. If she's claiming she did not consent mid-coitus, then it's just her word against his. You can't convict the guy on her word alone.

no one is saying convict the guy. but ITT clarification of consent and revoking it seem to be desperately needed.

 

[Anton Sugar]

This is extremely unlikely to happen. Maybe relax a little bit.

Exactly. It's Slippery Slope-ism to the nth degree.

 

[ExVicis]

I understand that, that's why I said you stop having sex with them

I'm asking , if you withdraw consent during sex, can someone say everything that occurred up to that point is also rape

I mean surely the obvious answer is no (provided there was original consent), but surely there are some people that would claim so

But this is actually not really a relevant thing to discuss, and is probably not a big real world issue so I'm not gonna continue talking about it

Yeah I agree it's really not relevant. This thread got bogged down in a lot of "What Ifs" and caveats that it's getting harder and harder to have a coherent discussion.

Especially when trying to relate these hypotheticals to a situation we have no ability to gather all the details on. It's entirely possibly at some point during the night and during she revoked consent but unless there's some evidence to show that arguing about if that happened is pointless.

 

[Sabercrusader]

Ah, I feel that considering suggestive hand gestures as consent is reaching a little. Even ignoring the possibility that she decided against it once they were in the room.

 

[Tecnniqe]

The stat quoted is widely agreed upon. While that stat is high, I recall reading that most rapes are committed by a sub population of men (much less than 30% of men) since they are generally serial offenders. I think that's a pretty good reason to take all allegations seriously.

Stats or not, leaning on that the burden is always on the men is wrong. In making a safe environment for reporting rape there's also the fact all men are viewed as guilty until proven innocent and even after being found innocent you'll always have the shadow of being a possible rapist after you making it harder to get certain jobs and what not.

It's a not an easy thing and very serious for all parties, guilty or otherwise.

And talking about that I'm sure there are a lot of males that gets raped too that never report it because sadly there's a big nono on these things.

I have no solutions but tl:dr I find the burden on one gender walking a dangerous line of guilty until proven otherwise.

 

[Charles Brandon]

The issue here is not whether or not she gave consent, it seems clear that she did, and there is nothing saying that consent was ever revoked, so that whole debate is beside the point.

The actual issue is about whether or not she was capable of giving consent i.e. that even though she said 'yes' she was too drunk for that 'yes' to mean anything.

Normally, we see this when a man approaches a drunk woman, takes advantage of her incapacity and solicits a drunken acquiescence to his advances. In this case, the accused does not appear to be the one initiating sex. The 'victim' approaches him, kisses him and drags him out of the door and into cab after making it clear to her friend that she intends to fuck him. He was also drunk. So while she may have been too drunk to consent does that still apply when she's the one making all the moves?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

No one is outright disagreeing, there just seems to be alot of confusion/ignorance over when a sexual act can become rape, and it's pretty simple.

You say no one is outright disagreeing, then go on to say there is confusion/ignorance...I really don't think there is.

The general problem that is being displayed is the introduction of booze into the situation and how people can consent and be exceptionally cool with having sex and then regret that decision when they are sober. It happens all the damn time and not just with sex.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

These sorts of things seem like a legal nightmare of ambiguity and doubt to navigate. I have no idea if any legal code can provide a fair outcome given the uncertainty regarding the situation.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

Freddie Gibbs was proven innocent when he was accused of rape and still have a hard time not thinking he did it because he was accused. That shit follows you until death.

 

[RDreamer]

That's why was asking for precision with regards to the statement.

The statement said sexual assault. It does not encompass catcalling, like we just explained to you...

 

[Lionel Richie]

I do not know what happened. I do know getting consent is the right thing to do regardless of perceived risks. very. small. risks.

On most situations I agree with you and I hate when people bring up 'muh body language' into this. But verbal consent isn't a written contract that proves or disproves anything and one can get it and still be charged with rape or not get it and get away with it. It's really not that simple in legal terms.

I should say I misunderstood the post you quoted and thought you were answering to something related to this thread and not some general opinion on rape as a whole lol.

 

[Anarion07]

why is getting verbal consent so hard for you?

Even if you had verbal consent, if the girl decides the next day she regrets what she did, who is there to verify that consent?

 

[HiredN00bs]

nobody is questioning that, holy shit. people are asking if the man stops and the girl still feels bad and decides to sue for rape

Maybe we're reading different threads.

What were her claims? FYI consent can be revoked.

I think I'm just gonna cut off my penis at this point. I just hate this double standard of women not being accountable if they're drunk. Woman has sex while intoxicated, she was raped. Man has sex while intoxicated, he's the rapist. It's like men are supposed to be accountable while drunk, but women aren't.

 

[Mesoian]

I think I'm just gonna cut off my penis at this point. I just hate this double standard of women not being accountable if they're drunk. Woman has sex while intoxicated, she was raped. Man has sex while intoxicated, he's the rapist. It's like men are supposed to be accountable while drunk, but women aren't.

You have to use your judgment. If you personally don't think you can make informed decisions and don't think you can determine whether or not the woman you're with, while intoxicated, can make informed decisions, don't drink.

This stuff isn't that hard, it's just that people make poor choices because nothing is stopping them from getting what they want.

 

[superbeau]

It makes no sense to you that it's possible to revoke consent once the sex has actually started? Uh

Look I'm gonna assume the video contradicted some of her claims and is enough to be evidence of reasonable doubt. Without evidence of the entire sexual act though we have no way of 100% knowing if it was or wasn't rape. Falsified rape accusations are heinous, actual rape is heinous, college administrations not doing enough to crack down on sexual assault on their campus' especially relating to Greek life and athletic organizations is heinous. This isn't a binary "you're with us or against us" type scenario.

yeah. We've been making progress in the way of Consent. There's still some very immature attitudes about what happens when a person says no *during* the act, in what situations consent can be safely assumed, how people are going to act in the event of an assault, etc, etc.
Many people now recognize that people in altered states can't consent, buuuuut that can go both ways. Obviously the millions of people that get drunk and smash every year aren't raping each other. Maybe someone can say yes that's an assault and both (or more) people need to be charged but man, idk. A sexually aroused person isn't going to injured the way a person is who was never in to it, so rape is going to be harder to prove. Someone having a good time can (and should) withdraw consent anytime they wish. I think we just have to give up having opinions on did they or didn't they in situations like these. We're just never ever going to know.

 

[Beefy]

What charges are usually laid against the accuser in a situation like this? The article doesn't say.

Nothing, I had it happen to me.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

These cases are always a mess whenever they happen and you never really get 'winners' or 'losers' just a couple of people that have to live with what happened for the rest of their lives.

 

[Zornack]

Yes. Or if one really wanted to do something the other didn't. Like you want to get it on, but find the other person has some kind of BDSM fetish/setup in their home that creeps you out, or finds that person is into rough sex, strangulation, drugs, or some other thing that makes you want to bail.

Not that that's the case here, but it's not something anyone should be dismisive of. Of course the big issue here is innocent until proven guilty, reasonable doubt, etc. She could very well have been raped, but it would be impossible to prove. Often in cases like these, not one of us can say with any reasonable conviction what happened.

And when both parties are really drunk, neither can give consent, then what do you do? Being drunk doesn't absolve someone of a crime, but unless there's physical evidence of force being used against one of them, what can you do as a judge or jury member?

Two individuals intoxicated enough to be unable to give consent are going to have a hard time having sex.

 

[MindofKB]

Freddie Gibbs was proven innocent when he was accused of rape and still have a hard time not thinking he did it because he was accused. That shit follows you until death.

Yeah it's super hard to get that taint off of you. People still think Kobe did it, but if you read the case files and court hearing information, it's quite clear that he didn't.

It's gonna be incredibly difficult for this kid to shake this label.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

no one is saying convict the guy. but ITT clarification of consent and revoking it seem to be desperately needed.

California tried.

The kneejerk pushback was quite intense.

 

[Symphonia]

So is the next step the suing of this girl for the falsification of rape?

It’s deformation of character. His life could’ve been ruined by this one lie.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Even if you had verbal consent, if the girl decides the next day she regrets what she did, who is there to verify that consent?

1) very unlikely to happen
2) you can't just go into a police station and claim rape without providing a story. What happened, how did the sex happen, what did you say, etc. They don't automatically prosecute cases when theirs next to no evidence as there would be in that case. Literally only the word with no circumstantial evidence, witnesses or anything else.

 

[Krauser Kat]

I dont have the book on me today but False rape accusations happen less then 5-10% of all cases of rape.

Everyone is still considered innocent until proven guilty but law enforcement should NEVER cast doubt on someone claiming sexual assault. 22.7% of south eastern state police officers believe "Any victim can resist rape if he/she wants to"

Since rape is very much a he said she said argument people generally dont even think rape happened unless a person was also physically assaulted or held hostage by a weapon.

Not being able to prove within a shadow of a doubt that someone raped you doesnt mean its a false accusation. Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction.

There should be a ban on stories of false accusations until we have a better handle on putting real rapists in jail. all this does is cast doubt on people who admit to being sexually assaulted. WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, the criminal justice system is lenient on rapists and those who commit rape not the other way around.

 

[Sunster]

Even if you had verbal consent, if the girl decides the next day she regrets what she did, who is there to verify that consent?

nobody. that is the very very small risk you take as opposed to her much much higher odds of being murdered by you.

 

[brochiller]

Ah, I feel that considering suggestive hand gestures as consent is reaching a little. Even ignoring the possibility that she decided against it once they were in the room.

The point is there's more evidence of consent than there is evidence to the contrary.

The only evidence of rape is her word and there is verifiable evidence of consent.

 

[Moose Biscuits]

All sex needs to be recorded, unrecorded sex needs to be banned. This will solve the problem.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

These sorts of things seem like a legal nightmare of ambiguity and doubt to navigate. I have no idea if any legal code can provide a fair outcome given the uncertainty regarding the situation.

Civil suits.

 

[Lonewulfeus]

False rape claims are incredibly low, so this is some stupid MRA bullshit.

False rape claims are pretty low that's true, to put yourself through what defenses will usually wage on a victim of rape would be insane but it does happen. At the same time there absolutely is a double standard when it comes to intoxication. When a man is intoxicated it's fine because men always want sex, but if a woman is intoxicated it's rape every time.

Again I need to stress MRA shit is toxic and awful especially considering the history of how women have been treated historically. College campuses should all be dry because alcohol plus young people away from home for the first time is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Ne0n]

The issue here is not whether or not she gave consent, it seems clear that she did, and there is nothing saying that consent was ever revoked, so that whole debate is beside the point.

The actual issue is about whether or not she was capable of giving consent i.e. that even though she said 'yes' she was too drunk for that 'yes' to mean anything.

Here's the thing, and what many in the 'My wife may have been raped' thread didn't seem to understand at all

There are so many varying levels of drunkness and how it effects you ona a given night is down to so many factors like what you've eaten, your mood that week, sugar levels even..you might only have a few beers, or drink a shit tonne. But while you are 'Blacked out' you are totally coherent and seem totally normal, can talk to people, but you are wasted. You might seem tipsy but you will have no memory of the night at all.

How is the guy to know that this woman making advances at you and wanting to sleep with you will decide the next day that she didn't want to? It's a huge grey area and it's pretty awful how it can ruin the guys life through no fault of his own

 

[Anton Sugar]

You say no one is outright disagreeing, then go on to say there is confusion/ignorance...I really don't think there is.

The general problem that is being displayed is the introduction of booze into the situation and how people can consent and be exceptionally cool with having sex and then regret that decision when they are sober. It happens all the damn time and not just with sex.

How often is "all the damn time"? What are the stats on false rape accusations due to regret?

It can? Because claims of intoxication?

^ This set off most of the discussion, since this poster was unclear on when consent can be revoked, indicating that maybe only intoxication allows revocation.

Where is this line drawn also?

So it can happen just before, during and after?

Can a woman after sex say it was rape if she felt like shit after?

Rape is so hard to prove.

Nothing to do with intoxication here.

We done here?

 

[Huge Succeeded]

That goes for a lot of things, like if you sign a contract while severely impaired - it may not be legally valid.

I don't disagree with the logic of that argument exactly as it was given. If someone is too intoxicated to give consent, that's open and shut. However, I've done my fair share of partying, and I can't count how many friends whom I've interacted with while they were in a (relatively speaking) lucid state, enough so that, to a neutral bystander, there'd be no question whether that person retained some level of agency over their actions. Before coming to find the next morning that they can't remember a damn thing, because they blacked out at some point, or because they popped xannies before they drank.

 

[Reeks]

Stats or not, leaning on that the burden is always on the men is wrong. In making a safe environment for reporting rape there's also the fact all men are viewed as guilty until proven innocent and even after being found innocent you'll always have the shadow of being a possible rapist after you making it harder to get certain jobs and what not.

It's a not an easy thing and very serious for all parties, guilty or otherwise.

And talking about that I'm sure there are a lot of males that gets raped too that never report it because sadly there's a big nono on these things.

I have no solutions but tl:dr I find the burden on one gender walking a dangerous line of guilty until proven otherwise.

Yah of course they shouldn't be viewed as guilty until proven innocent. A false claim can do a lot of damage, absolutely. False claims are very rare and rape isn't. Think about the fact that false claim stories make headlines but actual rape convictions/proceedings rarely do.
Taking claims seriously is not the same thing and burdening one gender, so we have no disagreement there...

How often is "all the damn time"? What are the stats on false rape accusations due to regret?

Yah, I want receipts

 

[Ri'Orius]

There is at least one in the former with another in agreement, on this page.

A few people in this thread making the former argument. Again, it's hard to make arguments against them without sounding like an MRA asshole. Putting all women on a pedestal and absolving them of bad decision making 100% of the time doesn't help either. College campuses absolutely have problems with rape, that much is undeniable. In this case, unless more evidence comes to light i.e; he was not intoxicated, someone heard her telling him to stop, etc, then this was the right call for now.

I'm reading the same thread y'all are, and I don't see anyone saying without a doubt she was raped. I'm seeing what-ifs and maybes and people explaining how this evidence doesn't prove things 100%, but I don't see anyone saying she was raped 100%.

It's possible I'm missing something: a lot of these posts get very samey after a while ("lol gonna need a contract before I bone a girl") which tends to make my eyes glaze over a bit...

 

[paperboywriter]

One of the reasons I didn't engage in casual sex as a youth....only with long term relationships. Shit can turn in an instant.

I'm sure that was the reason for it lol

 

[The Atticus]

There should be a ban on stories of false accusations until we have a better handle on putting real rapists in jail. all this does is cast doubt on people who admit to being sexually assaulted.

Uhhh.... this isn't a good idea....

 

[One Eyed Willy]

nobody. that is the very very small risk you take as opposed to her much much higher odds of being murdered by you.

seriously dude

 

[HiredN00bs]

This is absolutely true, but so far the evidence puts her claims in doubt. If she's claiming she did not consent mid-coitus, then it's just her word against his. You can't convict the guy on her word alone.

But it's entirely possible she revoked consent at some point in their activity. People are saying she's making a false claim when that is incredibly rare. Going through the justice system after an assault and/or rape is incredibly traumatic and taxing. There is almost no incentive and a lot of disincentive for people to make false claims, and tragically, legitimate ones as well.

 

[HarryKS]

The statement said sexual assault. It does not encompass catcalling, like we just explained to you...

Ok, not catcalling then. My bad.

It wasn't a statement, it was a question though. I'm not trying to defend deviant acts.

What's sexual assault in those 30%?

 

[entremet]

This is why universities should wait for the actual law to investigate in cases like these rather than reacting faster for PR.

It's required by Title XI, but as history has shown, University are poorly equipped and staffed to deal with criminal investigations. They are shitshows.

 

[ApharmdX]

It is shitty how vulnerable women can be in this situation, but don't you think it's also a problem that men aren't allowed to be sexually assaulted while drunk by cultural standards?

If both people are equally intoxicated, then they both have equal agency of consent. There shouldn't be any gender bias in how the law is applied in these kinds of cases. Period.

I was more responding to someone who was saying how unfair some of this might be to men when it came to revoking consent then I was about the standards to convict someone of a crime.

For me I wish the problem was more well known and that more was being done to reduce the numbers. I am old but from afar it does seem like colleges are trying to make for better environments from women but I don't know how successful those attempts have been.

If you mean the burden of stopping is on the man once consent is revoked, then yeah, I agree.

 

[Fenderputty]

Like you can invite someone to your house and then decide once they're there that you want them to leave.

Your body is a temple

 

[KingV]

Consent is not a one and done. Just seeing her interested at some point doesn’t prove that she was up for it all along or that he did not take unwanted actions when they were in private. If at any time someone decides they want to stop or don’t want whatever you’re doing, you don’t get to just continue and assume it’s fine.

That said, both being intoxicated changes the perspectives as well and neither can really provide consent.

I mean, she had better show receipts then. Because you gotta be pretty biased to believe that she's all over him at the bar, and in the Uber, and then gets back to her crib and is like "nah, now that nobody is around, i want to make a good decision". And think that there is enough evidence to prove her case.

Personally, I think neither person actually knows exactly what happened that night. They were both too drunk.

 

[Ozigizo]

At the same time there absolutely is a double standard when it comes to intoxication. When a man is intoxicated it's fine because men always want sex, but if a woman is intoxicated it's rape every time.

I can't parse this. Are you comparing men rape stats to women's?

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's why was asking for precision with regards to the statement.

But you literally are talking two different categories .

 

[Mesoian]

nobody. that is the very very small risk you take as opposed to her much much higher odds of being murdered by you.

Haha, it's true though.

Regret is not rape, to be sure. But the likelihood of you being accused of rape when basic, consensual sex was all that happened is just so low. Her ending up dead by your hand is, statistically, something like 40-70% more likely.