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Metroid: Samus Returns (Mercury Steam, Metroid 2 reimagining, 9/15) announced for 3DS

I prefer Super Metroid's controls. In the GBA games, to fire a missile while aiming diagonally, you need to hold both triggers while firing, but in Super you just have to hold one trigger.

No you don't, you have to hit X to switch to your missiles, then hold a trigger to fire diagonally, then either hit Select once or hit X again five more times to cycle back around to regular shots.

I mean, I can kind of understand preferring Super's cumbersome button layout if you've already built up the muscle memory, but the GBA controls are faster, easier and more intuitive by a country mile.
 
That Honorio is a real nice dude, dudes.
LP46QuYm.jpg
 

Toxi

Banned
Both Super Metroid and the GBA games have controls that are limited by the button options on their systems. The GBA games get around this by just limiting Samus's arsenal a bit.
 
Both Super Metroid and the GBA games have controls that are limited by the button options on their systems. The GBA games get around this by just limiting Samus's arsenal a bit.

The GBA controls were certainly limited by the GBA's design, but I wouldn't say Super was limited by its controller. The SNES has plenty of buttons, it's just that Super doesn't make use of them well. They could have used the R button for a missile/super bomb modifier, same as the GBA games, and then Y + D-pad directions for switching sub-weapons (Y + Up for super missiles, Y + Left for X-Ray scope, etc) and Y on its own for returning to regular shots. That would retain all the functionality without ever requiring you to take your thumbs off the main controls or cycle through any menus.

But then the games industry hadn't really worked stuff like that out in the early 90s, so I don't really blame the developers. I don't know when the concept of modifier buttons originated, but I feel like it's some time after Super Metroid :p

Sorry to ask but, are diagonal controls in the game?

I believe you can still shoot at 45 degree angles with the Circle Pad alone, but holding L locks you in place for the 360 degree shooting. So you can still run while blasting the floor or the ceiling, but if you want to do any fine-aiming you now have full analogue control.
 

D.Lo

Member
Both Super Metroid and the GBA games have controls that are limited by the button options on their systems. The GBA games get around this by just limiting Samus's arsenal a bit.
Yep. Well, they were also limited by screen size/resolution too, so the areas were more compact and items like grappling beam were replaced by grappling surfaces by necessity, meaning no need for a beam to select.
 
No you don't, you have to hit X to switch to your missiles, then hold a trigger to fire diagonally, then either hit Select once or hit X again five more times to cycle back around to regular shots.

I mean, I can kind of understand preferring Super's cumbersome button layout if you've already built up the muscle memory, but the GBA controls are faster, easier and more intuitive by a country mile.
So much this. The GBA control scheme is so much better it's not even funny.
 
The GBA controls were certainly limited by the GBA's design, but I wouldn't say Super was limited by its controller. The SNES has plenty of buttons, it's just that Super doesn't make use of them well. They could have used the R button for a missile/super bomb modifier, same as the GBA games, and then Y + D-pad directions for switching sub-weapons (Y + Up for super missiles, Y + Left for X-Ray scope, etc) and Y on its own for returning to regular shots. That would retain all the functionality without ever requiring you to take your thumbs off the main controls or cycle through any menus.

But then the games industry hadn't really worked stuff like that out in the early 90s, so I don't really blame the developers. I don't know when the concept of modifier buttons originated, but I feel like it's some time after Super Metroid :p



I believe you can still shoot at 45 degree angles with the Circle Pad alone, but holding L locks you in place for the 360 degree shooting. So you can still run while blasting the floor or the ceiling, but if you want to do any fine-aiming you now have full analogue control.

awesome. so hyped for this
 

Nerrel

Member
No you don't, you have to hit X to switch to your missiles, then hold a trigger to fire diagonally, then either hit Select once or hit X again five more times to cycle back around to regular shots.

I mean, I can kind of understand preferring Super's cumbersome button layout if you've already built up the muscle memory, but the GBA controls are faster, easier and more intuitive by a country mile.

I disagree. The way Super handles diagonal aiming is much better, and I prefer the missile swapping method as well. No one would have to hit the missile button 5 times instead of the cancel button once- if you're doing that, you're at fault, not the game. I use the A button to select missiles, X to cancel. It's very simple to just tap A once for missiles or twice for super missiles, then hit X when you're done. Or, you can hold X while pressing A and the missiles will cancel on their own after firing. That's it. You rarely have to tap more than twice in the heat of battle since anything after super missiles is rarely used in a fight.

Having to hold down R while pressing L and down in order to aim downward, which is what Fusion makes you do, is nowhere near as simple, and it's more convoluted when you consider that you still have to press select to change missiles. I just don't see any benefit other than having R also select power bombs when in ball form; I wish Super had done that as well, making a single tap select p.bombs when rolling.

I can't stress enough how much it blows not being able to aim downward on the fly in the GBA games. It comes in handy often enough that the Fusion/ZM toggle system bothers the shit out of me every time I play those games.
 
I disagree. The way Super handles diagonal aiming is much better, and I prefer the missile swapping method as well. No one would have to hit the missile button 5 times instead of the cancel button once- if you're doing that, you're at fault, not the game. I use the A button to select missiles, X to cancel. It's very simple to just tap A once for missiles or twice for super missiles, then hit X when you're done. Or, you can hold X while pressing A and the missiles will cancel on their own after firing. That's it. You rarely have to tap more than twice in the heat of battle since anything after super missiles is rarely used in a fight.
So, do you use Select for Dash for something?
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Man, some Metroid fans really sound like obsessive exes, like you broke up but then continue to stalk MOM lol
 

Lutherian

Member
Darn, nine days until release... come on !

Song-of-Double-Time.jpg


EDIT :
I
we
have a hard time letting MOM go. I need help, but Nintendo choosing to accept that game as canon over Prime makes me hurt inside.

Well, since there's a TON of nods to the Prime series in Metroid: Samus Returns soundtrack (even when collecting items) and the fact that Sakamoto finally talk about Chozos after their complete absence in Other M, I'm starting to wonder if Prime isn't going to be canon after all. Don't forget that Prime 4 is on the way.
 
I disagree. The way Super handles diagonal aiming is much better, and I prefer the missile swapping method as well. No one would have to hit the missile button 5 times instead of the cancel button once- if you're doing that, you're at fault, not the game. I use the A button to select missiles, X to cancel. It's very simple to just tap A once for missiles or twice for super missiles, then hit X when you're done. Or, you can hold X while pressing A and the missiles will cancel on their own after firing. That's it. You rarely have to tap more than twice in the heat of battle since anything after super missiles is rarely used in a fight.

Having to hold down R while pressing L and down in order to aim downward, which is what Fusion makes you do, is nowhere near as simple, and it's more convoluted when you consider that you still have to press select to change missiles. I just don't see any benefit other than having R also select power bombs when in ball form; I wish Super had done that as well, making a single tap select p.bombs when rolling.

I can't stress enough how much it blows not being able to aim downward on the fly in the GBA games. It comes in handy often enough that the Fusion/ZM toggle system bothers the shit out of me every time I play those games.

Like I said, if you played Super first and built up that muscle memory with a more cumbersome system, I can understand preferring it, but no matter how you slice it you're pressing more buttons for the same functionality in Super Metroid. One button to switch to missiles, another button to shoot them and a third button to cancel them is just a clumsy and inefficient use of the controller, and the GBA games solved that problem perfectly.

Admittedly you still have to use Select to switch between supers and regulars in the GBA games, but you don't really need to rapidly switch back and forth with missile types like you do with your beam and missiles. I pretty much only use super missiles for green doors and bossfights, and when I'm fighting a boss I generally just want to use supers until I run out. Meanwhile I'm pretty much constantly switching between the beam for charge shots or shooting down projectiles or weaker enemies and missiles for stronger enemies or boss weakpoints.

I guess I just don't really have a problem with diagonal shooting not having two dedicated buttons. You can shoot diagonally up or down with the D-pad alone; I honestly can't think of many other sidescrollers that devote even one extra button to diagonal shots, let alone two.

Also, yeah, what button do you use for Dashing if you have both weapon switch and weapon cancel mapped to the face buttons?
 
Like I said, if you played Super first and built up that muscle memory with a more cumbersome system, I can understand preferring it, but no matter how you slice it you're pressing more buttons for the same functionality in Super Metroid. One button to switch to missiles, another button to shoot them and a third button to cancel them is just a clumsy and inefficient use of the controller, and the GBA games solved that problem perfectly.

Admittedly you still have to use Select to switch between supers and regulars in the GBA games, but you don't really need to rapidly switch back and forth with missile types like you do with your beam and missiles. I pretty much only use super missiles for green doors and bossfights, and when I'm fighting a boss I generally just want to use supers until I run out. Meanwhile I'm pretty much constantly switching between the beam for charge shots or shooting down projectiles or weaker enemies and missiles for stronger enemies or boss weakpoints.

I guess I just don't really have a problem with diagonal shooting not having two dedicated buttons. You can shoot diagonally up or down with the D-pad alone; I honestly can't think of many other sidescrollers that devote even one extra button to diagonal shots, let alone two.

Also, yeah, what button do you use for Dashing if you have both weapon switch and weapon cancel mapped to the face buttons?
Preach!

Hold R + Y for quick missiles and instantaneously going back to regular shots is so much better than having to toggle with a different button to missiles and to go back having to cancel with another button altogether.

Also Holding L plus up or down for diagonal aiming is so much more intuitive than having to push L for one digonal and R for the other. Right now I couldn't even tell you which direction L and R pointed to in SM!
 
nobody at Nintendo ever said the Prime games weren't canon, jesus christ
Didnt Sakamoto made the decision to take them out of the timeline before Other M's launch? I remember seeing this in the Other M website days before launch where they completely omitted all Prime games.
 
At this point in time, I'd just look at 2D Metroid and Metroid Prime the same way Nintendo views 2D Mario and 3D Mario. Just two different subseries made by seperate teams/producers that offer different takes/interpretations on their franchise all while borrowing some concepts from one another.
 

TheMoon

Member
Didnt Sakamoto made the decision to take them out of the timeline before Other M's launch? I remember seeing this in the Other M website days before launch where they completely omitted all Prime games.

Like I was trying to make people see pages ago, this is because Prime and Japan-Metroid are two distinct branches. Both are canon, they just don't have anything to do with one another. This is why there's no point in forcing all those Prime games inbetween Metroid 1 and 2 just because that's where Prime 1 started out and this is the only place they'll fit. There doesn't need to be this fixed sequential chronology. Metroid happens, then you get your branch of events that evolves into the Prime series developed by geographically external devs from the West on one side and on the other you get the branch of events that ends with Fusion and is developed by internally in Kyoto.

If we could finally accept this simply, pleasant reality, everything would be so so much nicer and everyone would be happier. Would get rid of all the silly fighting and arguing about how many times Samus had faced Ridley and all the shit she'd seen before even going to SR388, etc. But noooo, we have to tear each other's faces off about these things all the time because reasons.
 

Mael

Member
Imagine if every time you wanted to type a capital letter, you had to hit the Caps Lock key, then when you'd finished typing capitals you had to hit, I don't know, Num Lock or something. And then your regular Shift functions and Function keys were accessed by cycling through a sub-menu by hitting Caps Lock multiple times. That's pretty much what Super Metroid feels like to play. Sure, you can get used to it eventually, but there's an unequivocally better way of doing it.

What are you talking about?
You barely have to use missiles and it's the only way to use grapple beam too.
You have 5 secondary beam functions (actually 4 but you can't really use the xray visor any other way in Super) and you have to have a toggle to access them.
How the hell do you use Super Missile if you only have a toggle to 2ndary function?
Granted if you use 2ndary while in morphball you should access power bomb.
But you would still need 3 other triggers to access super missile (and no, charge beam+toggle can't work as it's actually more cumbersome).
And you're still left with no way to access grapple beam and xray vizor.

Other M is like if someone was told to make a Metroid game but had no idea what the hell the higher-ups were telling them when making it other than 'oh, no loading times' so they strung it out as thin as possible. If you look at 2D Metroid games, you get a sense that there's a thickness to the level design. Then you account for Other M having invisible walls in plain, embarrassing sight.

Prime 3 looked better than Other M. It also holds up better and is more consistent visually. It also doesn't drop frames constantly. Samus also moves like she's gonna trip with every step she takes. She's not fucking Sonic or Naruto. Mercurysteam at least seems to have gotten that right.

I'd like to see how an HD port of this would end up looking. I'd bet the character models would look a lot different.

Finishing Prime 3 at the moment, it still holds up.
Like put that in 1080p and it would still be a looker if a bit dated.

I played through that hack awhile back and it does not have Fusion/Zero Mission physics.

Samus' overall acceleration felt too fast, wall jumps with high jump boots have triple the height gain compared to the original (example would be the bottom of Brinstar Red Soil, one wall jump will give you more than enough to reach the top ledge), auto fire for beams is significantly faster where missiles (and super missiles) become obselete against normal enemies, bomb jumping is floater so there's much less timing needed for successive jump

Well, it's a romhack I guess.
These projects are interesting as it's kind of like seeing why they choose to go with some decisions over others. Makes for great appreciation of the finished released product.

nobody at Nintendo ever said the Prime games weren't canon, jesus christ

The Prime games cannot be canon with Other M.
Other M manages to contradict pretty heavily with the Prime games and use that contradiction as a key element of its story. So much that the story would break down if you remove this element.
It's important to Other M so if you include it, you cannot include the Prime games.
As long as they make Other M relevant, it's an admission that the Prime games aren't part of the main canon. They may not state it clearly but everyone knows what it means.

Like I was trying to make people see pages ago, this is because Prime and Japan-Metroid are two distinct branches. Both are canon, they just don't have anything to do with one another. This is why there's no point in forcing all those Prime games inbetween Metroid 1 and 2 just because that's where Prime 1 started out and this is the only place they'll fit. There doesn't need to be this fixed sequential chronology. Metroid happens, then you get your branch of events that evolves into the Prime series developed by geographically external devs from the West on one side and on the other you get the branch of events that ends with Fusion and is developed by internally in Kyoto.

If we could finally accept this simply, pleasant reality, everything would be so so much nicer and everyone would be happier. Would get rid of all the silly fighting and arguing about how many times Samus had faced Ridley and all the shit she'd seen before even going to SR388, etc. But noooo, we have to tear each other's faces off about these things all the time because reasons.

Is this the Metroid version of "the timeline doesn't exist"?
The only issue the Metroid overall storyline has is whether or not Prime or Other M should fit together.
There's no problem in fitting all the Metroid games together otherwise.
There's no stated time as to when Metroid II happens or if it was just after Metroid 1 to begin with.
Even Zero Mission and the manga don't go out of their way to exclude anything.
The arguments started with the release of Other M.
It's the only point of contention.
There's no mystery like for Zelda trying to piece the whole thing together or whatever here.
If inside Nintendo they felt like classic Metroid and Prime games didn't fit together, they never gave any info to contradict the fact that they do fit.
They was never any reason to separate them before Other M so don't fault people for doing what was logical either.
Heck even in the Prime trilogy booklet they still refer to the overal Metroid line of events.
 
I feel like people put too much store in what is and what is not officially canon in Nintendo games when Nintendo themselves barely give it a second. Although they do occasionally try and satisfy the fans when queries reach a critical mass, resulting in the ridiculously convoluted official Zelda timeline, it's obviously not something they worry about overly.
 

Mael

Member
I feel like people put too much store in what is and what is not officially canon in Nintendo games when Nintendo themselves barely give it a second. Although they do occasionally try and satisfy the fans when queries reach a critical mass, resulting in the ridiculously convoluted official Zelda timeline, it's obviously not something they worry about overly.

This has been said multiple times.
It's BS. There's a Zelda timeline that they take care off.
While they may not fix themselves to it to the point of harming gameplay, it's still something they do and care about.
Wind waker and Twilight Princess entire premises are a result of that.
Contrary to what some people think they do care about it, why the hell would they do Skyward Sword and bill it as the start of the whole thing otherwise.
It's part of the games, part of the marketing as well.
You can ignore it because they're not stupid enough to put barriers to newcomers but that doesn't make it go away.
 

WestEgg

Member
I feel like people put too much store in what is and what is not officially canon in Nintendo games when Nintendo themselves barely give it a second. Although they do occasionally try and satisfy the fans when queries reach a critical mass, resulting in the ridiculously convoluted official Zelda timeline, it's obviously not something they worry about overly.

I think the whole thing with prime being noncanon was a misinterpretation to begin with. I believe Sakamoto said something more along the lines that the Prime games are considered a side story to the main series (2D games plus Other M) and the stories don't really interact with one another. This doesn't mean it's not canon, just the events in the prime games do not lead into or stem from the "main story".

It's like how Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening have no bearing on the rest of the Zelda series, but they are still canon and have a timeline placement.
 

yuoke

Banned
At this point in time, I'd just look at 2D Metroid and Metroid Prime the same way Nintendo views 2D Mario and 3D Mario. Just two different subseries made by seperate teams/producers that offer different takes/interpretations on their franchise all while borrowing some concepts from one another.

Except there is no timeline or plot to mario games.

Metroid is a clear set path of stories that all happen in relation to each other. The prime games are things that happened sometime between zero mission and samus returns.
 

VDenter

Banned
I thought you folks would switch to FF bashing.

There is nothing to talk about in regards to Federation Force. It was all shit with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. That abomination takes everything great about Prime and tosses it off a cliff. How that game ever passed the concept stages is a complete mystery. It actually made me appreciate Hunters despite it being really disappointing initially. At least that game looked like a Prime game and was really ambitious for the DS hardware.
 

Toxi

Banned
There is nothing to talk about in regards to Federation Force. It was all shit with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. That abomination takes everything great about Prime and tosses it off a cliff. How that game ever passed the concept stages is a complete mystery. It actually made me appreciate Hunters despite being really disappointing in it initially. At least that game looked like a Prime game and was really ambitious for the DS hardware.
There are some really good parts in FF. The Metroid section is arguably the best in any Metroid game to date. The 2nd and 3rd bosses are wonderful experiences with a team working together.

Mostly it's just bland and mediocre though.

Also really fucking ugly. I can't believe people were trying to pass the game off as looking decent before release.
 
The Prime games cannot be canon with Other M.
Other M manages to contradict pretty heavily with the Prime games and use that contradiction as a key element of its story. So much that the story would break down if you remove this element.

The very first detail we learn about a key character from Other M and Metroid Fusion is contradicted in Other M. Adam wasn't just Samus's CO once a long time ago; he was her CO once during her stint in the Federation, and again during the events of Other M.

Meanwhile... absolutely nothing that happens in Other M contradicts the events of Prime any more than Other M contradicts Fusion.
 

yuoke

Banned
The very first detail we learn about a key character from Other M and Metroid Fusion is contradicted in Other M. Adam wasn't just Samus's CO once a long time ago; he was her CO once during her stint in the Federation, and again during the events of Other M.

Meanwhile... absolutely nothing that happens in Other M contradicts the events of Prime.

The one thing often brought up that could be possibly considered a contradiction is the "first joint mission" thing, if you count prime 3.
 

Comet

Member
I've got so much Metroid stuff pre-ordered right now: amiibos, Samus 3DS XL, and of course the CE version of the game. So ready.
 

TI82

Banned
Really hoping we get a switch HD port announced because I want to buy this game but I am done buying 3ds games...
 
The one thing often brought that could be possibly considered a contradiction is the "first joint mission" thing, if you count prime 3.

I edited my post literally seconds before you hit reply to reflect that what I'm saying is "the way Other M introduces Samus's involvement with the Federation is inconsistent with Fusion as well as the Prime games."

From Metroid Fusion:

For someone who dislikes taking orders, this is the second time I've found myself having to do so.

With Other M, it'd now be the third time.

(And with Prime factored in as well, obviously the fourth.)

Oh okay yea, well I agree. Yet for some reason a lot of people ignore that fusion contradictions...just because I guess. It is really weird that for how much sakamoto wanted to focus a ton of plot specifics and samus's character, that he would contradict anything with the "mainline" games.

People need to accept that relying on an auteur with no actual writing accolades to deliver a consistent story is a futile hope.
 

yuoke

Banned
I edited my post literally seconds before you hit reply to reflect that what I'm saying is "the way Other M introduces Samus's involvement with the Federation is inconsistent with Fusion as well as the Prime games."

Oh okay yea, well I agree. Yet for some reason a lot of people ignore that fusion contradictions...just because I guess. It is really weird that for how much sakamoto wanted to focus a ton of plot specifics and samus's character, that he would contradict anything with the "mainline" games.
 

TheMoon

Member
There is nothing to talk about in regards to Federation Force. It was all shit with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. That abomination takes everything great about Prime and tosses it off a cliff. How that game ever passed the concept stages is a complete mystery. It actually made me appreciate Hunters despite it being really disappointing initially. At least that game looked like a Prime game and was really ambitious for the DS hardware.

Just flat out no. Please tone down the ridiculous hyperbole.

It's very a well designed co-op shooter that seamlessly implements Metroid Prime gameplay mechanics. A familiar set of moves with some new agility sprinkled in to give you the feel of the original Prime games, used across good variety of combat, exploration, and recovery missions. I had an absolute blast with it.
 
Just flat out no. Please tone down the ridiculous hyperbole.

It's very a well designed co-op shooter that seamlessly implements Metroid Prime gameplay mechanics. A familiar set of moves with some new agility sprinkled in to give you the feel of the original Prime games, used across good variety of combat, exploration, and recovery missions. I had an absolute blast with it.

I mean, the real problem with FF is that Metroid isn't a "missions" shooter, and so that gameplay template was seen as an inauthentic Metroid experience.
 

VDenter

Banned
There are some really good parts in FF. The Metroid section is arguably the best in any Metroid game to date. The 2nd and 3rd bosses are wonderful experiences with a team working together.

Mostly it's just bland and mediocre though.

Also really fucking ugly. I can't believe people were trying to pass the game off as looking decent before release.

I mean i guess there are a couple of parts where the game could be enjoyable in theory if you have people to play with. For me personally since nobody i knew owned the game, i had to rely on the dreadful online CO-OP which was one of the worst implementations i have ever seen in a game. It took forever to find players and on the rare occasion it did some would just randomly drop out. I usually never have connection issues with online games. Why would anybody ever chose to play this when there are far better alternatives out there with a much cheaper price tag to boot?

Playing the game solo was just torture. The missions dragged and the mechanics of the game could not be any less satisfying. The most fun i had with the game in single player was the first mission but that unfortunately meant it was all downhill from there. The game is not balanced at all with single player in mind since the enemies take forever to kill and if you die you have to go back to the start of the mission.

Whats weird about the game is that Next Level Games a developer who has proven to know how to make quality games made this. They made one of the best looking on the 3DS previously. So what the hell happened here? How do you go from Luigi's Mansion 2 to this? The mission structure and design of the missions in Luigi's Mansion worked really well.

I was also not against the game before it came out i read a few of the interviews and i was sold. Thought like it could be something along the lines of Peace Walker different from the console games but still fun and satisfying in CO-OP and a game that made sense for a portable machine. But it just sucks the execution is abysmal. I could at least say the developers tried with Other M and took some kind of a risk. Granted it was a disaster but with Federation Force the game just makes me feel like nobody gave a shit about this game. Like It just served to pad out the release schedule or something.
 
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